The Unnatural Upbringing of Fëanor | The Red Book | Episode 5

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  • čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
  • The Red Book Podcast ran for 12 episodes. This is the fifth episode. Fëanor is the most infamous and controversial Elf in Tolkien's Legendarium. Instead of exploring his obsession with the Silmarils or his irrevocable Oath, I explore what I consider to be an unnatural upbringing. The death of his brother, the second wife taken by his father, and his hatred of his new family. All contributing to the figure Fëanor would later become.
    ► Chapters:
    0:00 - Intro
    1:11 - Fëanor did nothing wrong...
    2:57 - A brief history of Fëanor
    4:45 - Unhealthy obsession/The Silmarils
    6:22 - Fëanor's unique family tree
    8:37 - Interlude
    9:03 - Birth, pain, and suffering
    10:50 - The death of Míriel
    12:58 - Finwë & Indis
    14:31 - Fëanor's animosity
    16:05 - The marriage of the Eldar
    17:54 - Míriel's will
    19:38 - Fëanor's grief and lack of control
    20:30 - Pity for Fëanor
    21:33 - Outro
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    #tolkien #feanor #silmarils
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Komentáře • 129

  • @anglerfish4161
    @anglerfish4161 Před rokem +38

    Oh, this is a treat. The Finwean Family situation is delightfuly complicated, it's not something that could have easily been solved by one or another just making good decisions. Míriel is hurt through no fault of Fëanor and leaves. Finwë and Fëanor are hurt by her absence. Fëanor is hurt by Finwë trying to move on. Finwë, Indis and her children are hurt by Fëanor's resentment. Of course, it's more than fair to blame Fëanor for flying off the handle and threatening his brother with a sword, or the burning of the ships, but at least in the beginning it would have been understandable to have no clue how to deal with an experience that literally no one ever had before. And while the guy was brilliant, he could be horribly short-sighted (yeah, man, you get rid of the largest part of your fighting force before facing a Vala, that's gonna go well for your direct family). I think it goes especially for Fingolfin. At some point he seems to have been the main target of Fëanor's jealousy, yet at every turn Fingolfin is willing to swallow his considerable pride to keep the peace. Part of this is for his father and his people, I'm sure, but I also get the impression that Fingolfin genuinely wished for his older brother to act like one. Maedhros and Fingon's future friendship seems like a template of what could have been if they made up.

  • @TolkienLorePodcast
    @TolkienLorePodcast Před rokem +27

    If Elves in Mandos can communicate with each other, you’ve got to wonder what a meeting between Miriel and Feanor would be like. I imagine maybe some initial bitterness followed by healing for both. At least that’s the Estel in me.

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil Před rokem +1

      I am probably wrong, but I think there are different places within the Halls of Mandos that separate those who will be there a shorter time from those who will be there a long time, so I don't see how Fëanor should be rewarded by meeting his mom for the first time as well as Míriel getting traumatized all over again and wondering if she will ever find peace for her soul.

    • @leonardomarquesbellini
      @leonardomarquesbellini Před rokem +1

      I wonder what the meeting between Fëanor and Finwë would be, considering all the guy did and set in motion in his father's name.

    • @Greendalewitch
      @Greendalewitch Před rokem

      @@leonardomarquesbellini Knowing Finwe, he would have blamed himself. Especially since he gave up his right to be re-embodied so that Miriel might instead be brought back to life. But Miriel, while alive again, chose to serve in the house of Vaire, weaving the deeds of the Noldor. If Finwe had been brought back to life, he might have prevented all of what Feanor did.

    • @forfun6273
      @forfun6273 Před 8 měsíci

      @@Enerdhilit is called the halls and not the hall so yeah you’re probably right.

    • @raydavison4288
      @raydavison4288 Před 7 měsíci +2

      Although the souls in the Halls might be able to communicate with each other, they aren't inclined to do so.

  • @neant2046
    @neant2046 Před rokem +12

    Thank you for this amazing episode! Feanor is one of my favourite characters as well, and I love pondering about his controversial personality, but it turns out that I somehow never concidered one interesting aspect that you brought up in the video: the connection between the permission for Finwe's second marriage and Feanor's distrust for the Valar. Now I clearly see how this permission could become a firm foundation of Feanor's growing distrust for them. I somehow always thought that it was only because of the Silmarils and passive position in relation to Melkor, but now that you've said this, it seems so evident that he got his first reason for being discontent with the decisions of the Valar way earlier... Everything else just went to the same huge "you've let her die" pot and was carefully stirred up by Melkor.

  • @ironblue4593
    @ironblue4593 Před rokem +6

    In my opinion, Fëanor realized that he will never see his mother again after his father remarried which made him very angry and he despised his new family. With that complicated family situation and with the creation of Silmarils Fëanor becomes an easy target for Melkor to manipulate and spread his lies among his family. He puts Silmarils first and with that, he makes questionable in order to get them back in his possession. Ultimately he is a fascinating character that made a lot of mistakes, but we can understand him and his motivations.

  • @dan.thomas
    @dan.thomas Před rokem +7

    Thanks. Reading Silmarillion through the lens of Rene Girards literary theory on mimetic desire, brings out the level of depth that you aspire to in you excellent videos. Desire, as an intersubjective process, seem to me to name the most important literary concept in Tolkiens works; from Morgoths desire for the Flame Imperishable, to the conflicts and fall of the elves, of Numenor, the power of the One Ring, and so on. Understanding desire as an anthropological condition, helps to not read Tolkien superficially; looking for inherent evil, explanatory analogies, theologies and so on. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to share so well thought out analyses.

  • @egoborder3203
    @egoborder3203 Před rokem +7

    nice catch with "her sons" just another example of Tolkien's genius. The Silmarillion is often downplayed as "the history book" but he squeezes so much into every letter

  • @rotwang2000
    @rotwang2000 Před rokem +5

    I think I can sum up Feanor's main problem, he didn't have a reverse speed. He was so intense, he couldn't back out of all the problems he would end up facing.

  • @88gargy
    @88gargy Před rokem +13

    You are the legend! Cant write in words how I love to listen to your stuff.

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +6

      You live up to your name Casper the Friendly Ghost!

  • @johnquach8821
    @johnquach8821 Před rokem +17

    Thank you so much for the Feanor video!
    Maybe a "Radagast Analysis"
    I wonder if Radagast was forgiven for his failure. He was said to have failed, but not to the same degree as Saruman.

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +16

      Thanks, John, and yeah that's a great idea. I have a video idea written down called "Of the Wizards failure" and I was going to discuss the fate of the Istari who betrayed their mission or fell from it in other ways. It will be a video. But if I start writing out that idea and it makes more sense to split it into Radagast, Saruman, and the Blue Wizards due to how different their failures were - then I certainly will do that :D

    • @johnquach8821
      @johnquach8821 Před rokem +5

      @@TheRedBook You are welcome! Thanks for the consideration of the Radagast idea.

    • @BenFrayle
      @BenFrayle Před rokem +5

      He failed but he didn't fall. Big difference.

    • @anglerfish4161
      @anglerfish4161 Před rokem +5

      @@BenFrayle He may also have failed successfully, since Yavanna was the one who sent him and she must have been concerned for her creations.

    • @istari0
      @istari0 Před rokem +3

      @@anglerfish4161 Fair enough but at the same time it was the Free Peoples who had to triumph otherwise the flora and fauna would also have been at Sauron's mercy.

  • @Enerdhil
    @Enerdhil Před rokem +10

    It makes you wonder if Frodo ever received healing from his Morgul wound in the Undying Lands. Healing is apparently not guaranteed even in Valinor.

    • @burnedbread4691
      @burnedbread4691 Před 11 měsíci +2

      I think that's a larger point Tolkien makes about trauma and healing. There are wounds so deep that they may never fully heal, but in time will ease and the mind will be used to it and be able to live on despite the aching. There are better places for healing of course, but in a way, change is always permanent.

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil Před 11 měsíci +1

      @@burnedbread4691
      Another issue about healing in the Undying Lands is that I am pretty sure that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli are confined to Tolkien Eressëa and are not permitted to go to Lorien for deep healing.

    • @burnedbread4691
      @burnedbread4691 Před 11 měsíci +2

      @@Enerdhil yeah true, I remember something like that too - though it should not really matter whether one is in Tom Eresseä or Valinor, since the Lamps nor Trees do not stand anymore. The only difference would be the frequency of seeing the Valar, which, yeah okay, huge difference.
      Though now I wonder how a meeting between Manwë and Frodo would have gone. Hobbits are, for all intents and purposes, human, as in the second children of Iluvatar. They take part in the gift of mortality, something that is a mystery to even the Valar, save maybe Mandos, who has a slight idea about the purpose of mortality and the second children. Frodo represents the very best of humanity, in a way he and his burden, wounds and healing are one answer to the mystery of the gift of Iluvatar. I wonder if the Valar would have something to learn from Frodo and the hobbits in general.

    • @burnedbread4691
      @burnedbread4691 Před 11 měsíci +1

      And now that I think about it more, Gimli stands out here even more as the sole child of Aulë to enter Undying Lands

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil Před 11 měsíci +1

      @@burnedbread4691
      Being in the Undying Lands did not give Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, or Gimli immortality. All of them eventually died and received the gift of Eru Iluvatar. Bilbo was like 130 years old when he left Middle Earth. Sam was nearly 100 years old. Gimli was 262 years old. You know, those three guys likely died on their ships before they got to the Undying Lands. They were all literally at the end of their lives. Even if they survived the trip, how many years, months, weeks, days could they enjoy? Frodo was the only one who could live a long peaceful life there.

  • @giacomogatti3393
    @giacomogatti3393 Před 10 měsíci +1

    Great content, as usual. You could summarise Feanor's fascinating but tragic character story with a sentence that is also a central theme in Tolkien's legendarium and, more generally, his vision of life - there is always a price to pay for greatness, and the price is usually grief, suffering (own and others') and, in the worst cases, a tragic fall into evil.

  • @annamnatsakanyan4040
    @annamnatsakanyan4040 Před rokem +4

    Great content, as usual! Been binge-watching your latest videos and looking forward to more! The episode about Balrogs is especially good - shame I couldn't check it out earlier.
    And I like your take on this other spirit of fire:) As for personal traits, I just can't resist drawing parallels between him and Turin. Dunno, but I always tend to liken them as in both cases it is their flaws that bring about their demise.

  • @jesuschristsupersta1
    @jesuschristsupersta1 Před rokem +2

    I never realized this about feanor. I knew his mother died, but did not realize the other consequences of her passing (for some reason I didn't even ask why didn't she come back).
    The consequences give a greater tragedy to feanor, as a mortal man it's hard to say "get over it"

  • @kjnewell7243
    @kjnewell7243 Před rokem +10

    I’ve watched a lot of lotr lore videos and I must say your content is some of my favorite. Other channels seem to have the same playlists almost, while your content topics are all different as well as interesting. Great work, keep it up!

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +5

      It does make it more interesting when I am thinking of topics. It allows me to sometimes think up things that haven't been covered in other videos. Though, sometimes crossovers are unavoidable!

    • @kjnewell7243
      @kjnewell7243 Před rokem +2

      Absolutely but you’re doing a great job!

  • @TheRedBook
    @TheRedBook  Před rokem +23

    Finally, a second video about Fëanor . I'll try not to leave it so long between Fëanor videos in the future. Please leave your thoughts about the episode, the figure, and any questions you want me to tackle for my October Appendices video. I hope you enjoyed Episode 5.
    You can find the Podcast on Spotify at (open.spotify.com/episode/0jMMwqFCT0w9uuXiYjMa5O)
    Or you can find it on other platforms at (anchor.fm/red-book)
    You can get early access to Podcast episodes and videos by joining Patreon (patreon.com/theredbook)

    • @MistaGify
      @MistaGify Před rokem

      Steven, you have truly outdone yourself. I have made known my disdain for Fëanor, but this 1 video has single-handedly softened my views considerably. I knew the details of Elven marriage and procreation, but I never realised just how traumatic Miriel’s breach of these norms would be for her son. I always held it against Fëanor for refusing to accept a stepmother and half-brothers who were nothing but loving. *But now I see how their bliss is the source of his resentment precisely because it was only possible with his mother being forever sundered from the living, all because of his mere existence.*
      Excellent work! ❤😊

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil Před rokem +1

      Fëanor needs to have his own private room in the Halls of Mandos, where he can ponder the evil he unleashed on his own family and the Teleri and all of Arda until the Dagor Dagorath and I have no confidence that he will ever repent of his deeds and gather the Silmarili and give them to the Valar. I don't see him parting from his "Preciouses."

  • @istari0
    @istari0 Před rokem +7

    I can have pity for the younger Fëanor, struggling to deal with a situation completely unique to him and with no precedent. I don't have pity for the older one, who committed so many awful, evil deeds without any sign of remorse. Were it not for Morgoth, Fëanor would be the clear villain of tale.

    • @Enerdhil
      @Enerdhil Před rokem +1

      Exactly, but we now live in a world where people are making excuses for those who cannot handle their own personal responsibilities or take control of their own lives. You are absolutely right that young Fëanor could make excuses for any bad behavior he took part in, but the adult, mature Fëanor should not get a pass for his bad decision making after his father was killed and his Silmarili were stolen.

    • @leonardomarquesbellini
      @leonardomarquesbellini Před rokem

      @@Enerdhil even before that, he answered a summons of his father in full battle gear and openly threatened to kill his own brother on the spot, even worse in front of his father and his brother's mother.

    • @morgant.dulaman8733
      @morgant.dulaman8733 Před 5 měsíci

      Were it not for Morgoth, who knows what he might have done? Lets not forget Morgoth played a part in exacerbating the tensions between Feanor and Fingolfin, as well as teaching the Noldor how to make weapons.

    • @duongcamlinh
      @duongcamlinh Před 3 měsíci

      That's right. Were it not for Morgoth, who knows what he might have done? In the future, even though the tension in the family still exists, but that doesn't mean they can't get better. Anyway, hope will always exist because the Elves live for a long time, they have a lot of time to solve the problem. But Morgoth's arrival dashed hopes and made matters worse.

  • @drewp9819
    @drewp9819 Před rokem +2

    Feanor is a great character, for sure. There's so much wonder art of him

  • @joseraulcapablanca8564
    @joseraulcapablanca8564 Před rokem +2

    Great stuff as ever Steven. Good that you have sympathy for Feanor. He is very much a victim. I think as much as anything he is a victim of Tolkien’s religious philosophy as anything. One could see his mother dying as a representation of original sin. Mortals, use be flawed and fallible. However the professor writes of these things in such a human way, he shows deep understanding of the human condition, he could well have approached Feanor, from a different view point and created the same wonderful flawed human being, I know he is elvish and hope you understand what I mean. Thanks and as ever keep up the good work.

  • @flaviusstilicho1239
    @flaviusstilicho1239 Před rokem +11

    Fëanor is easily one of the most interesting characters in Tolkiens universe.

  • @benjamindagorath1534
    @benjamindagorath1534 Před rokem +1

    I really appreciate this channel and the work you do. I love other channels that break down the lore and stories of the legendarium. But your in-depth literary analysis is unique in that it peels back the layers of those stories, giving them much more meaning. I’m a huge fan!
    I’m interested in more of your thoughts on Tom Bombadil. Personally, I’m partial to the theory that he is counterpart to Ungoliant or the Nameless Things, ‘yin and yang’ if you will; a spirit who entered the world at the moment of its creation, before the Valar, becoming an embodiment of Light, goodness and purity as opposed to malice and darkness. I’d enjoy a video exploring this enigma of a great character. Thanks and keep up the awesome work!

  • @benolds7879
    @benolds7879 Před rokem +1

    Love the content, as always. This channel is by far, head and shoulders above any other LOTR/Tolkien related channel.

  • @temmy9
    @temmy9 Před rokem +1

    The elven way of using the spirit to nourish the unborn child has an uncanny resemblance to the way elves and ainur use thier essence to imbue thier creations with power.

  • @MrKurtank
    @MrKurtank Před rokem

    I for one would love to have a series just on the plight Fëanor. Loving your channel. Keep up the good work!

  • @LordOfTheLore123
    @LordOfTheLore123 Před rokem +2

    this is so relaxing to listen to

  • @rickstorm4198
    @rickstorm4198 Před rokem +2

    As always great work

  • @henrykmur
    @henrykmur Před rokem

    I love your work. My only complaint must be, I'd prefer this episode with music playing in the background throughout the whole thing. You always choose excellent scores for your content.

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +1

      I had researched this before starting the podcast and it seems that it's best to do podcast episodes without music playing throughout. My regular videos do have music but I don't know if people actually listening to this as a podcast on other platforms would find it overbearing.

    • @henrykmur
      @henrykmur Před rokem

      @@TheRedBook It's a sound point, now I think you've made the right choice. Thank you for the explanation, looking forward to seeing your new videos!

  • @lionofthemorning7997
    @lionofthemorning7997 Před rokem +1

    Fëanor is easily one of Tolkien’s greatest characters & one of the most pivotal.
    Supreme among the elves, yet supremely flawed.

  • @gandalf8216
    @gandalf8216 Před rokem +6

    Fëanor is a creator of a magnum opus, and it defines his character. He's the one we whom have done such a thing such as a magnum opus most can relate to. The Silmarils encapsulates the concept, and it's a seldom thought of thing, I think, the magnum opus. Similar to peak experience, but in the context of creation. It's a simple but effective character, and one that nonetheless grips us in so many ways.

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +4

      What is this in response to?

    • @gandalf8216
      @gandalf8216 Před rokem +3

      @@TheRedBook It's my general take on Fëanor as a character, not to anything said in your video. By the way, if you find me bothersome I can stop commenting out of respect. I enjoy your videos, and I have no wish to be a bother to you. Out of respect.

    • @philmace81
      @philmace81 Před rokem

      I do that too. I watch his videos and catch myself yelling "Yes! What about...."

  • @TheSaneHatter
    @TheSaneHatter Před rokem +2

    I don't think that I ever pondered this question, far less in so much detail; it was too easy for me to simply write off Feanor as a jerk. Certainly so, since I haven't been able to read much of "The History of Middle-Earth," including the relevant passages here.
    But in the light of this new information, it all makes far more sense: Feanor suffered an emotional trauma at birth, compounded both by growing up without his mother AND by a perception that the very laws of nature were violated by what would seem a perfectly rational decision on his father's part to most humans. This must surely have had a way of poisoning his experience of growing up, experiencing life, and of even life's sweetest experiences. A tremendous amount of harm seems to have come about from the Eldar's lack of good psychological counseling.

    • @indio4-215
      @indio4-215 Před rokem +2

      Especially since 1. Fëanor had no one to relate to regarding his mother's death, that was caused in the first place simply by being born, as everyone else in Valinor was happy and content with no broken, missing families. 2. No doubt because of the unique circumstances surrounding his birth that Fëanor was marked as different right from the start, with the Eldar and the Ainur in general treating and viewing him as such, further exacerbating the situation and Fëanor's inner turmoil.
      And Finwë's decision to remarry and have more children definitely was at it's peak where Fëanor was concerned, as he couldn't help but be reminded of both his mother's passing and his father's second marriage and his half-siblings was only made possible because of his very existence.

  • @onemondaynight
    @onemondaynight Před rokem

    Thank you for this!

  • @jamief1263
    @jamief1263 Před rokem +4

    Feanor just seems mean to me. The kinslaying was horrible, but at least there was a reason for him doing this, where as burning of the ships, which were precious to the Teleri and stranding his half brother Fingolfin and his kin, again just seems to be needlessly mean. On his death bed, he realised that victory against Morgoth was impossible, yet he still made his own sons repeat their oath, knowing it would cause them strife and lead to their deaths. Again this just seems needlessly mean to me. His skill was great and his spirit was said to be pure fire, but he is corrupted.

    • @anonymouspersonskissnowboa6678
      @anonymouspersonskissnowboa6678 Před rokem

      Why send ships back for a low class inter race half blood scum who does not even want to leave at the first place. Feanor is the superior being all the others are just low class scum

    • @leonardomarquesbellini
      @leonardomarquesbellini Před rokem +1

      During the flight itself he also purposefully drove the Ñoldor over the point of no return before they could calm down a bit and thing that whole exile thing through, very much implying he knew it was a horrible idea from the beginning but still decided to string everyone along for his own benefit.

    • @peterkamau2014
      @peterkamau2014 Před 7 měsíci

      He did this because he understood the kind of sacrifices it would take to defeat morgoth, remember the valar did nothing prior to this, so in his mind, it would require as much bloodshed as possible to defeat him and he was right because without the noldor in beleriand and without his sons pursuing the silmarils up to the point of earendil going back to valinor, morgoth would have probably destroyed everything.

  • @billdavidson3519
    @billdavidson3519 Před rokem

    Red Book, Excellent. Feanor is the mighty, tragic hero of Tolkien's work. Sincerely

  • @lhadzyan7300
    @lhadzyan7300 Před rokem

    I sense that though Tolkien wrote what he did on Miriel´s refusal to return to live on excuse using Feanor for her reasons, she kinda foresaw both Finwe´s futue as well the hidden past - even forsaken by Tolkien himself about that very sad and unfullfilling situation for missing his closest "friend" Elwe on Middle Earth (when he got bonded with Melian and became King Thingol) and that she was somehow used as a way to get rid of that sad unfullfillment on the past so Feanor´s fiery nature was just the outcome of the unfullfilled rage within Finwe for that previous loss, so she got all reasons to get deeply upset about him and his son as well foresee the future with someone else again to rebuild his life if she didn´t came back.

  • @valentinomiller6251
    @valentinomiller6251 Před rokem

    I neither love nor hate Feanor, but certainly do find him intriguing. Yours was a fantastic examination of the character.

  • @shanenolan8252
    @shanenolan8252 Před rokem +1

    Cheers Stephen

  • @lhadzyan7300
    @lhadzyan7300 Před rokem +1

    Well all was from Finwe´s own troubles which started all along with the odd strong "friendship" bond with Elwe (Thingol) as he got missing him a lot after he left to live on MIddle Earth after falling in love for Melian the Maia, so kinda at some rush of seeking a partnership completion choose to marry Miriel but then after loosing her as well, seems that transfered all those needs for getting someone to love and care into Indis to try to be fullfilled again. Sadly though Miriel actually indeed managed to swift away all whatever lasting care for missing Elwe, after boring Feanor, Indis wasn´t unable to do that after Feanor remained so Fingolfin and Finarfin - and their little known sisters - were pretty much forsaken as not at the same level of upbringing as Feanor got - thankfully it seems that Indis did great for them so didn´t made the same troublesome way as their older half-brother did.

  • @paulgalligan1916
    @paulgalligan1916 Před rokem +1

    Thanks @redbook

  • @mattcarnevali
    @mattcarnevali Před 11 dny

    I’ve read that after Finwe’s death they reunited and made peace with each other. Finwe chose to remain in Mandos with Feanor. Miriel did eventually return to her body and served as a weaver to Mandos’ wife Vaire. From the video I thought her refusal to be reembodied was totally permanent. How does this work? And if Finwe and her were reunited, how does that affect the union of Finwe and Indis?

  • @mihajlo7835
    @mihajlo7835 Před rokem

    amazing video I wonder if maybe you could do something with palisor I find all of that fascinating

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem

      It would probably come up if I covered GIlfanon's Tale and these early versions of the Legendarium. I'll see what I can do :)

    • @mihajlo7835
      @mihajlo7835 Před rokem

      @@TheRedBook i really like the early versions they are kinda more mythological and since i don't like the idea of canon in tolkien's works i consider the book of last tales as a part of middle earth's history and the moments were there is a contradiction with the later works i take that as different versions of history kind of like our real world

  • @MichaelDG2023
    @MichaelDG2023 Před 9 měsíci +1

    Thanks!

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před 9 měsíci +1

      Very kind, thanks Michael :]

  • @616thedevil
    @616thedevil Před rokem +2

    "epic character history"

  • @anma8959
    @anma8959 Před rokem

    Oohh, will definitely enjoy this one! Fascinating, unlikeable, tragic character! Love it.

    • @anma8959
      @anma8959 Před rokem

      Loved it! Thanks for your ‘deep dives’. You express many thoughts that I can never get out, at least not as eloquently! I would be very interested in what you have to say about Nerdanel, Feanor’s wife. She seems to be largely forgotten, yet she has - to me - one of the most tragic fates. To lose your husband and your seven sons, never to see them again! Another , for elves, unnatural fate…

  • @wisnubasktrucci
    @wisnubasktrucci Před rokem

    My most favourite Elves 🧝‍♀️

  • @dododog5002
    @dododog5002 Před rokem

    Thanks for the video man loved the faenor did nothing wrong joke

  • @albdamned577
    @albdamned577 Před rokem +1

    I wonder what feanor would do if he grabbed the silmarils after the kin slaying and it burned him, what would he do? Would it even burn him? I don’t think the silmarils could hurt him, like the ring couldn’t hurt Sauron

    • @leonardomarquesbellini
      @leonardomarquesbellini Před rokem +3

      It wasn't the Silmarils themselves that burned mortals and the impure, but the hallowing they received from the Valar. He'd most likely be burned by them.

  • @douglasharley2440
    @douglasharley2440 Před rokem +1

    as always, extremely interesting, much thanks! absolutely, i _do_ blame finwe for feanor, as a parent it is our most important responsibility to raise our children to be decent people(/elves), not to be "happy".
    i have a question though, considering the terms of elven marriage, how does feanor's estrangement from nerdanel fit in?

    • @jacketjack9399
      @jacketjack9399 Před rokem

      Yeah but Finwë absolutely did love the hell out of Fëanor and put all his focus on him. The Silmarillion makes it seem like Finwë tried his absolute best to raise his son as best he could and even after all of Fëanor's bullshit he even still followed him into exile into Formenos showing just how much love and dedication he had for his son. Honestly, Fëanor just seemed to have too much of a firey spirit, so much so that I don't think there was anything Finwë could've done to prevent it. Sure, he remarried but look at how depressed and devastated he was at the loss of his wife, even the Valar decided to let him remarry for it. You can't blame Finwë for wanting happiness too

    • @douglasharley2440
      @douglasharley2440 Před rokem +1

      @@jacketjack9399 doting on children isn't the same as raising them. some of the hardest aspects of parenthood are telling your kids "NO!" and punishing them when they are doing wrong. finwe definitely didn't do any of that.

  • @TarMody
    @TarMody Před rokem

    All I can say about this is that I have the same thoughts as Galadriel about Fëanor. Isn't there a situation among Tolkien's works that the souls of dead elves can be reincarnated into different bodies and be born as a child?

  • @keyboarddancers7751
    @keyboarddancers7751 Před rokem +2

    Apex Tolkienology.

  • @josephraffurty9293
    @josephraffurty9293 Před rokem

    So if Mirial chose to never be reborn, does that mean she dwells in the halls of Mandos until the ending of the world, or has she moved on to some other fate? Has the left the halls to dwell with Eru in the heavens, or am I missing something?
    It was fascinating to hear the details about elven marriages and how this affected their culture. Thank you for your videos and research into the legendarium.

    • @rickstorm4198
      @rickstorm4198 Před rokem

      I once had a dream where i saw myself and my wife in different bodies and times throughout history. We looked different each time and yet.... I instinctively knew it was her, first, then I. I woke up and told my wife half asleep "I saw us together many times in other bodies".... My wife was taken aback, as I immediately fell right back to sleep. But once i awoken the next morning and explained it in-depth. She was fascinated and loved the idea. Guess who got some extra "pudding" for being romantic that daym 😁

    • @Rosula_D
      @Rosula_D Před rokem +1

      If I remember correctly, once Finwe is murdered and he goes to the HoM, he chooses not to be re-embodied himself but have Miriel get resurrected instead. And unlike Miriel's previous refusals, this time she accepts and goes to serve the Valar. Indis and her daughter go live with the Vanyar, and Finwe is stuck in the HoM, probably trying to change his son's mind. The timeline is a bit weird because canonically, Finrod is the first Elf to be re-embodied and he died centuries after Finwe.

    • @bgcvetan
      @bgcvetan Před 10 měsíci +1

      Elves cannot leave Arda, she is still in Mandos, just like Feanor.

  • @shanenolan8252
    @shanenolan8252 Před rokem +4

    Feanor must have been reunited with his mother in the halls of mandos.

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +12

      You've kind of entered the follow-up territory because the fates of Finwe, Miriel, and Feanor become quite interesting following the deaths of Finwe and Feanor. They surprisingly don't all "live" happily in the halls reunited. Miriel actually leaves if you can believe it. I'll try to think of a way to cover this. But it may just be a response to your comment in the Appendices video in case others are interested in the possible reunion you speak of :)

    • @shanenolan8252
      @shanenolan8252 Před rokem +2

      @@TheRedBook cool , im not familiar with those events, il check that out .

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +3

      @@shanenolan8252 - It's interesting enough that I might do a follow up video. I'll definitely give it a response though :D

    • @BenFrayle
      @BenFrayle Před rokem

      @@TheRedBook Don't most Elves leave Mandos to be reborn?

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +3

      @@BenFrayle We don't have numbers of course but theres's a process before the blessing is granted for the Elf to return. It's safe to say most do return after their "Time of Waiting". Exceptions always exist and some would have very long periods of waiting.

  • @bruttus11
    @bruttus11 Před rokem +2

    Need to change description to “upbringing “

  • @skatemetrix
    @skatemetrix Před rokem +2

    It just occurred to me: that's why Feanor stays in the Halls of Mandos- to be with his mother Miriel. Perhaps that is Feanor's peace...

    • @indio4-215
      @indio4-215 Před rokem +1

      Though it may also have something to do with his stubbornness, that being his unwillingness to repent despite likely feeling remorse for his actions sometime after his death. Knowing Fëanor, I wouldn't be surprised as, personally, I've never encountered a more obstinate individual than him.

    • @leonardomarquesbellini
      @leonardomarquesbellini Před rokem

      What good would be reincarnated even do for him? The Oath still stands, it was made to stand until the end of Arda, but now all Silmarils are inaccessible, so they cannot help but fail to fulfill it.

  • @jackkennedy70
    @jackkennedy70 Před 11 měsíci

    Finwë should have sought an annulment on his 1st marriage

  • @Davlavi
    @Davlavi Před rokem +2

    for the algorithm.

  • @planepantsgames1791
    @planepantsgames1791 Před rokem

    Red book! Please reread the part of FOTR where it talks about the company seeing a nazgul and thinking it was a Balrog. It proves balrogs have wings

    • @TheRedBook
      @TheRedBook  Před rokem +2

      I don't think it does prove wings but it's certainly an interesting passage. It's not the whole company, it's Gimli. It has always seemed to me that he is comparing the shadow and the 'feeling' of what was coming as being similar to the Balrog, not the appearance.

  • @Lotusisrael
    @Lotusisrael Před rokem

    Again, myself I try to see the works of the Professor in a theological way. In Catholic theology, marriage is unbreakable, but it is considered to end on the death of one of the parteners. Now, Elves are different from Men, because they all share the same life, that is the life of Arda itself. Men have their own, personal life, they are autonomous. This is why, when Men die, they die a true, full death. Elves, on the hand, even if they die, they do not completely die, even if the spirit and the body are separated. Maybe this is why we know about the Houseless, spirits of Elves who died and refused the summons to go to the Halls of Mandos. This is my view.

  • @alfredoreliford3329
    @alfredoreliford3329 Před 8 měsíci

    Is that accent Scottish? Ye talk like Allestiar Begg, the pastor… keep it up cat…⚔️🙏🏽⚔️ very cool…

  • @noway8259
    @noway8259 Před rokem

    Aims to explore Tolkiens works in depth eh? I don't know I still haven't heard you talk about Tolkiens obsession with The Man In The Moon ;-)
    Seriously though it would be nice to explore some concepts that come up multiple times even in Tolkiens non middle earth based works.

  • @tonyhinrichs1869
    @tonyhinrichs1869 Před rokem +1

    I love Feanor! He’s the most SPECIAL of the One’s children and also the most COMPLICATED! But I’ve never felt he was evil, just Driven!

  • @LordTelperion
    @LordTelperion Před rokem

    I'm now thinking of how Fëanor communicated with his mother in Mandos... maybe bringing the greater part of her own soul back to her maybe could have resuscitated her spirit in some way, but only if he stayed a ghost with her in Mandos.

  • @shanenolan8252
    @shanenolan8252 Před rokem +2

    Criminally underrepresented, fear not , im sure this video will be taken into account in mitigation, first offense, im sure the judge will let you off with a warning.

  • @25gramsofbluesky33
    @25gramsofbluesky33 Před rokem

    I hope this is not out of order but in adaptations and the general consensus of the fly by night Tolkien reader, it is generally known that elves are near perfection. Men are weak. There is only right and wrong, no grey area or nuance. Im only learning recently the Silmarillion largely in part to this channel but I must say from the LOTRs and the Hobbitt it was obvious that elves are not super human loving creatures of some unattainable virtue. Tolkien was not the rube who wrote a "children's story", he masterfully wove in all concepts and characters so they were not dull and predictable. The prejudice between races that exists just in the Hobbitt alone shows this wisely. Perhaps by some of these greater flawed yet venerable characters deaths, a point can be made about paying a price for mistakes and prejudices we all hold.