Markforged & Formlabs | Bambu Labs & E3D | Testing Lab Kickstarter
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- In this episode of Layer by Layer, we talk about the rumors surrounding. a potential Markforged and Formlabs merger, Bambu Labs implementation of E3D's ObXidian nozzle, and the Peopoly Magneto. We also provide some information on our upcoming Kickstarter for the Slant 3D Testing Lab.
00:00 Are Markforged and Formlabs Merging?
05:25 Bambu Labs Using E3D HotEnds
06:54 Peopoly Magneto Delayed
08:06 For the Cost of a Spool of Filament
12:55 API in Final Stages
14:35 Temporarily Pausing Etsy Sign-Ups
16:00 Other Machines For Testing Lab
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About Slant 3D
🏭 High-Volume 3D Printing: Scalability Meets Flexibility
Slant 3D's Large-Scale 3D Print Farms utilize 1000's of FDM 3D printers working 24/7 to offer limitless scalability and unparalleled flexibility. Whether it's 100 or 100,000 parts, our system can handle it reliably, while still allowing for real-time design updates, ensuring products evolve with the times. This adaptability is key in today's fast-paced world.
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Embrace a system that drastically reduces carbon emissions by eliminating carbon-intensive steps in the supply chain, such as global shipping and warehousing. Our approach minimizes this footprint, offering a more sustainable manufacturing option.
⚙️ Digital Warehouses: Parts On-Demand
Think of print farms as a "Digital Warehouse", meaning we can store your parts digitally on a server rather than physically on a shelf. parts are available on-demand, reducing the need for extensive physical inventory.
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Material creep is something I would like to see some testing on. There are many FDM plastics, like PLA, that are strong and rigid, but don't hold up that well under even a modest continuous load over a longer period of time.
That's mostly because people don't use the proper infill or enough walls. PLA softens in direct sunlight on a spring day, it's not viable for end use products.
@@createsomefun PLA, under a continuous load, will give way slowly over time even at room temperature, without sunlight and regardless of print settings. That generally makes it unsuitable for functional mechanical parts despite some otherwise desirable properties.
Stephan at CNC Kitchen has been doing semi-pro testing, I am sure you know. It would be interesting if we could do something to allow him to participate from the EU. I am sure he would like a more professional set of tests, if nothing else to quallify how good his tests are vs professional tests, so hopefully we could get some 'correctiona factors' or known variances in the testing he has done vs pro-equipment. ... Just a thought
The fact that you do a podcast as a CEO of a company, about subjects that relate to the company, is amazing. Not many CEOs have the time or frankly the balls to do this.
Appreciate that. We really think that as much transparencey as we can bring to it is necessary.
I think BL is doing the collaboration with E3D just for the PR win. Yes, they could've easily designed their own HF nozzle, but tapping into an existing OEM & avoiding more "China is stealing IP" chatter is a positive.
iirc the bond tech style nozzle is patented and e3d has a valid license to produce that style of nozzle
the aliexpress knockoffs of course don't and I assume bambu doesn't wanna go license it themself so they partnered with e3d
It also helps with the "everything is proprietary, I don't want to buy in just in case the company goes tits-up." Now there's a second source for nozzles.
Bambu are opening a partner program where if you make a product that has certain criteria for safty and they also test it, you could sell if just like how e3d do rn with the new nozzle.
They definitely are benefiting from the marketing. Not only in the typical places you would think, but also it echoes into Chinese US import markets. It's amazing the ripples a little partnership like this makes. It is a win for them
@davydatwood3158 that's precisely why the only proprietary 3D printer I have that requires a full rebuild to move from proprietary is my ultimaker. That is for special task prints, and working on Cura plugins anyway😂.
I would absolutely love to see one of the tests be a data set for how quickly different filaments absorb moisture, in what humidity level conditions, and how long it takes to dry those filaments back out at what temperature. This info is WILDLY different all over the place, and some hard science taken to that would be wonderful to see. For example, I see people say not to worry about moisture with PLA for MONTHS, but PolyMaker has posted graphs that show DAYS to saturation. It's just wildly inconsistent with different experiences and it would be nice to see the comparisons because I bet it changes based on the additives used in the material. This would also be a very inexpensive test to run, I think? It just needs some formal testing and a little automation built around it, and it would be interesting to see if there are any relationships between how quickly a material saturates with moisture and how much that saturation impacts other mechanical properties. (Obviously it gets weaker, but HOW MUCH weaker?)
Another good one would be the 'meltability' of these materials. As printers are getting faster, I'm seeing more materials rated for 'speed' printing. A database of glass temperatures would be useful, as well as a publishing of WHEN each of these materials reach each stage of melting, and perhaps some way to measure how well each flows at certain temperatures? Validating some of these speed claims would be very useful.
There is no standardized test for 3D printer filament flow rates but it would be fairly easy to create G code to run on a temperature calibrated 3D printer to determine flow rates at different temperatures for different filaments. At this point, you could probably ask an AI to write the G code for you. Flow rate tests for different filaments would be very useful, particularly for someone printing with different materials and needing settings that would work for different filaments, or someone wanting to switch from one material to another and wanting optimal results for each without a lot of random experimenting.
Very interested in this material testing kickstarter. Would be great not just to see generic materials, but also across major brands (Bambu, Prusa, polymaker, esun, sunlu, eryone etc) and see how close they compare to raw materials (and especially PLA “plus”, CF/GF variants) and see what are engineering benefits/variances and what is marketing hype
I love this, and I'll say that I would far rather prioritize the UV testing than the push and pull testing. There are lots of videos out there for tensile strength of filaments (perhaps not to the level of quality and consistency you'll be going for, but something nonetheless), but I'm aware of very little out there for UV testing, and that's data I frequently find myself needing. I'd be happy to donate toward that.
The UV testing is only relevant is subsequent push-pull testing can be applied to demonstrate strength degradation over time.
@@slant3d Oh? I mainly want to know what's going to fade, warp, or layer degrade over long UV exposure. Not that subsequent push and pull testing wouldn't also be hugely helpful.
I think the testing lab and the “slant standard” will be very useful down to hobbyists. I’m considered a hobbyist, but I make things to sell that revolves around vehicles. So uv integrity , temperature endurance and seasonal exposure cause and effect ex. How automotive company’s test engines from sub zero temps, to Sahara heat in short succession. Always look forward to your content
Thanks
Agreed. Basic Thermal testing (testing a hot part or a freezing part) as well as effects of thermal cycling would be really interesting to see.
PLA is obviously no good for anything that is exposed to heat, it will melt in the interior. Many thermoplastics have to be painted for uv protection.
I thought it could be really exciting to test the strength of different materials at different temperatures. for example -20°c +20°c and +50°c
I am really looking forward to seeing all the different tests. And I will like to support you in your work.
I happen to know a rigging company that is in your area. There are actually two different businesses in your area, that would be worth contacting and inquiring. One of the companies, I don't have permission to give info on, has tons of load cell, and custom equipment making abilities. It can actually run you much cheaper than you even think. If I was in your state, I'd happily make that happen for cheap. No need for a GoFundMe
I'm in for crowd sourced public data for 3D printed material testing. I particularly like the "for the cost of a roll of filament" appeal, which is pretty good marketing for an engineer. 😛
There are *many* variables with 3D printed materials testing, so it will be a significant undertaking even if the testing methodology is intelligent and pragmatic rather than trying to quantify every filament, in every color, at every possible nozzle temperature, in all material orientations, at every ambient temperature, with varying UV exposure.... Even rudimentary testing that is done consistently so comparisons can be made and general conclusions can be made would be very valuable compared to the current state where additive manufacturers make a good guess and test each specific product to ensure that it meets their specific requirements.
Thanks for preaching. Very interesting stuff even to the hobbyist. As a hobbyist I would like to see testing for the best color to use for speeds up the mach 1 under water.
Good. I like the idea of engineering data that can sound like it was derived from an ASTM-like set of procedures. I like the engineering approach taken by Hat Man. It will be good for the industry and good for engineering-minded hobbyists, too.
Thanks
An environmental chamber on the UTM and torsion tester would be a good stretch goal: not everyone is in a dry environment and parts have been known to change properties when hydrated.
E3D contributes the patented ObXidian materials. How long would it take BL to develop something similar? I believe that's why there was a collaboration. No patent violations from either end that way, and E3D is already set up to make them. This is a good example of something you've talked about. Companies that are competitors (both sell nozzles) , collaborating to help grow the industry.
Kickstarter Idea: One of the support levels would be to buy filament at $29 a roll. Or something like 3 rolls @99 including shipping.
High ROI; you get your filament brand out there and your filament into more hands, but also can use the high profit for the testing lab. And gives something back that is tangible to someone who wants to help.
That is a great Idea. But Tangled Filament is focused on reducing the cost of filament. We cannot use it for fundraising by raising the price of it. That is would be hypocritcal to the mission of that project, especially if it is for sale on the site at regular pricing. The deliverable from this kickstarter will be the guaranteed videos and tests and open information that hopefully other can use.
Totally makes sense to me. Thanks for the reply!
I'd love to see how water/moisture affects parts
Onyx does not like to sit around. Layer adhesion takes a hit after a few weeks.
Thank you for your work.
Thanks for listening
I have a formlabs form 3 and a markforged onyx printer. Many of your ideas align with what I tried to do with what I tried to do with my hobby shop.
I have printed hundreds of models for testing on both. The material costs are huge though, especially the form 3, due to the expense of having multiple tanks. Onyx is beautiful and unbreakable along 1 axis, but you really can't rely on layer adhesion for any integrity. You have to try to design parts so the orientation is always correct.
Formlabs acquisitions have been in the spirit of vertical integration. Spectra Photopolymers gave them control of their resin supply chain (which is very diverse and robust) and Pinshape gave them a public database of 3d files and community.
Markforged would be their first acquisition that brought a new 3dp tech to Formlabs.
Formlabs is a resin company that started making SLS machines
@slant3d I spent 7 years there through SLA and SLS development and go to market. I don't think your video explains them properly. You say Formlabs is a conglomerate through acquisitions. That's so absolutely false. Formlabs is an incredible, agile, fast, and thoughtful engineering organization.
Your next comment "Fromlabs is a resin company that started making SLS" is brash. Fuse 1 was in development so many years before anyone ever knew. It was always a goal and it proved to be incredibly difficult to refine. Now it's a kick ass machine that 1000s of companies rely on, including some of my own friends doing stuff I wish I could tell you about.
If your data is comprehensive enough, you could produce a predictive model integrated into the slicer, which would tell you how the properties will change as you change settings. I think what's needed is a fully integrated toolset for designing, which would include CAD, finite element analysis, and slicing. Slicer settings can completely change object properties, so they need to be taken into account when doing FEA. But characterizing how printed objects behave with different settings is the first step.
Exactly. But that data does not yet exist. But that is why we want to start collecting it
Really interested in proper UV testing. I sell a lot of exterior signaling parts and usually default to Nylon, but with no proper basis for that.
I am in on your great, big project!
Thanks
I'll totally get in on your Kickstarter. I wish I was closer to Boise, and closer to retirement. Id live to work in your testing lab.
On another note, I don't know how much of this is 'secret sauce' stuff, but I'm curious about how you manage a big server farm. How do you know which printers need to be pulled out of production and need to be serviced? How do you know when a print spaghettifies?
what I want to see in thermoplastic testing to participate in a kickstarter is testing for load at different printing temp, fan speed, layer time, speed and most importantly, chamber temps and creep, I heard so many time "no fan for printing ABS"... no you NEED fan for ABS just in a 80°c chamber... the temperature you need to get the full capacity of your ABS in terms of strength.
Same with blend, pure ABS or pure PC are pretty strong and cheap, so how much weaker the blend are (and yes most of them are weaker even if you see a + it is just for printing difficulty)
otherwise I do not see that must value in a incomplete testing as we already have some test done by hobbyist
This would be awesome! I know trying to do FEA analysis for 3D printed items is REALLY challenging to be accurate. This will be an awesome thing!
Have you thought about applying for national funding for this?
With the caveat that I'm poor and it's very unlikely I'd get three hours wages' worth of value out of your testing, and thus am unlikely to contribute to the Kickstarter - I'd be interesting in a series of tests on joining materials. What chemicals can be used to solvent-weld what brands and materials? (This, especially, for PLA+ - I run into people claiming that PLA+ can be solvent-welded with acetone, and that clearly is going to depend on the brand, since PLA itself is not soluable in acetone.) What glues will work, and what will just cause the plastic to break down? How do they stand up to having heat-set inserts? How does that compare to embedded nuts? What are the fatigue effects of having a screw through the part? That sort of thing.
I mostly print prop replicas and cosplay stuff and most of that either doesn't fit on a hobby printer or is recreating something that was multiple machined parts in the first place, so I do a lot of joining.
You might check with local companies that do concrete testing to find out how they test concrete. You might even be able ot use theirs, for a small fee. They are normally calibrated machine and qualified operators.
The number of tests you have planned is pretty staggering, I wonder how you'll be able to do so many? It would be wonderful if you can pull it off, though.
We will start with 20 core tests from this kickstarter. But the full project will take years
Possible test scenario (or stretch goal): effects of UV on unprinted filament. Does UV (sun exposure) cause filament to degrade (and act like it needs drying)? Or is that just an anecdote?
Already on the list
The testing lab is a wonderful idea.
I grew up with industrial, MIL-SPEC and aircraft standards. I was surprised to find that buying filaments this year was a real crapshoot on the product data supplied.
Exactly
I like the idea of standardized filament testing but I think it should be done at “Klipper” speeds. Every strength quote I have seen of a PLA+ you will notice the roll says 60mm/s, maybe sometimes 100mm/s. The slowest bed slinger I own runs at 200 and the bambu faster.
My markforged runs at those speeds, but really only 1% of the time. No one who cares about quality or reliability is actually putting walls down at that speed.
3DXTech is better about data but could still improve a lot.
As you stated, rule of thumb is what is mostly available along with basic specifications. That works well for very simple hobbyist appilcations.
But when I want to start putting components into FSAE vehicles, I need to know a lot more. Layer adhesion, electrical conductivity, magnetic permiability, stiffness at various temperatures, chemical resistance, porosity, etc.
I look forward to seeing where your efforts go.
Thanks. Exactly right. We've taken the first step. We just released the kickstarter for a few machines for the lab.
@@slant3d
I about to watch that video, the timing is ironic. I'll definately consider donating.
It would be great to do all the military MIL-STD-810 testing. Covers just about everything you are talking about.
Would like to have a database kinda of information access where you can search directly for the material you are interested in. Can also very much imagine that people and manufacturers would pay for that data as well
matweb.com
As part of your testing, can you include transmissivity and transmissivity consistency?
We can get that on the list
water absorbency. and how it handles it.
I mentioned integration into PDM or other PLM software. Is it fair to say that the API should enable this?
I have heard, from people in product engineering, that you can use oil (they used olive oil) to artificially she plastics.
I don't know the details, and it might be a rabbit hole, but someone else might know more.
Sounds cheap at least :)
Data on different materials is something I am interested in. Right now I don't want to deviate from what I am using for PLA because I am worried about wasting money on something that will not work.
Exactly. That is why it is so important to get thrid party testing data on manufacturers and keep it updated to hold them accountable and comparable
@@slant3d So given 3rd party testing is so important, who will be the 3rd party testing your filament?
What do you think of E3D's new extruder the Revo Roto which has a 3D printed metal heatsink?
personally, among a lot of FDA registered medical device using AM technology, it has been compulsory that they have their own way to do V&V, verification and validation. so it is indeed nothing new. for me, making FDM medical filament, we also adhere to ISO 13485 for mechanical properties (before and after print), biological properties, and we have way to answer how to print it for different medical applications. we are just one of the many doing that already. sorry about that, just wanna raise the point that the “qualifications” are there in some way like what ISO and ASTM been doing which new standards refer to old existing one and industries especially military and medical have had the ways to do it right already (in-house).
Kathy Woods of ArcInvest
I am curious also about speed ratings. Are high speed filaments really any better for high speed printing? In my own experience I have only found one that really supported the fastest speed I could throw at it.
Filament material viscosity compared against temperature.
Link your test efforts to ISO standard 5425:2023. At least at first.
That gives a baseline of know material properties to test against.
I'm would think similar standards are under way for other plastic types.
The biggest tests I would like to see are not the ones of critical failure. What I think is the most important is when things pass the point of elasticity into plasticity. When something is compressed or stretched buy a given amount and can no longer return to the original state.
Hopefully, they will provide full stress-stain curves that will get you those properties and much more, and it is all collected when doing the ultimate strength testing
Is there a roadmap of future features for the Etsy integration and API?
We are currently working through feedback from first users. Their needs are more important than our wants.
Polytech has a lot of this data but not on different colors
Could you talk about pellets 3d printer? Seems to me the most logical path to real with material costs..
Deadend
Except for large format
You need a smoother transition between topics 👍
This trend of companies crowdfunding the next thing is getting out of hand. Only a matter of time now until GM is kickstarting the EV camero or whatever.
Markforged is complete trash, they treat customers like garbage and their machines really lack in a lot of ways. I can go on for hours about how they have screwed me.
Could you eleaborate a bit more
Soooo, you're a for-profit business that wants people to donate so you can expand/improve your business to make more profit?
Thats ridiculous.
Good on you for parting a fool from their money, but c'mon.
Youre going to use this as part of the filament line and use kickscammer to finance it , so why not just expand it like part of the business? This would be like McDonalds asking people to buy the fryers and oil for them.
If we do it entirely internally there is no incentive to share the data. But if we share the data publically it is perfectly reasonable to call upon the people benefiting from that data to assist in the funding of the its creation. No one is required to help. You are welcome to stand on the sidelines and mooch off the information after everyone else helps to make it happen.
@slant3d Funny how you say Im a mooch but youre literally trying to sucker people into putting money in your pocket for nothing, oh, Im a sorry, its data. lol
Hows this for an equal deal You give me your business and Ill give you the data from it? No? Sounds too much like a scam for your taste?
Cathie Woods, Ark Investments.