Iroh's Mistakes | Avatar: The Last Airbender - Video Essay by Shain Slepian aka TimeCapsule
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- čas přidán 23. 12. 2023
- Weirdly, I finished this video right around the time I wrote an Animation for Adults article about the movie "Elemental" and you best believe I had to fight the constant urge to reference A:TLA.
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I think people are so fond of iroh that they overlook that his flaws are essential to his character. They make him so much more than a charming wise man. Great vid
Thanks Paul!
Agreed fully. I noticed this on a rewatch too, and this is so, so clear in how Azula and Iroh try to persuade him during the season 2 finale. Literally look at these lines put side by side.
"You are stronger, and wiser, and **freer** than you have ever been. (...) It's time for you to choose. **It's time for you to choose good.**"
"The kind of redemption she offers is not for you, Zuko!"
"Why don't you let him choose instead of you, uncle?"
**"You are free to choose."**
Iroh has good intentions, but he could not truly reach out to Zuko and force him to change, nor could Zuko change overnight, even if he tried his best to facade and do as he was told by the one person he had left in a situation with no other choice. Azula exercises restraint and by simply allowing Zuko the option to tempt him, she won the battle of wits where Iroh had thought his firm words and showing Zuko a simpler way of life he himself enjoyed, had been enough to enrich and fulfill Zuko.
Great point. Azula manages to see past Zuko's transformation and capitalize on the underpinning tension between the two. Damn, she's the best villain ever lol
Thanks for commenting!
I'm rewatching the show currently and Zuko's betrayal of Iroh at the end of S2 hit me so hard. He seemingly was so close to peace. After the season finale, my partner posed the question of if Zuko would have been happy in Ba Sing Se, serving tea with his uncle. Perhaps, but probably not long-term. That life would have been as imposed onto him just as the one as prince. As I see it, his largest steps in discovering who he is happen while he is away from Iroh, and his family in general. Iroh tries his best as mentor, but he still acts as a part of the Fire Nation hierarchies and his family's structure, maybe too much for Zuko to really deconstruct his upbringing and values.
I think you're right. Even at the same age and life- stage, i think these people are just fundamentally different
6:17 I think we also need to take into consideration Zuko and Azula were constantly used and abused by their father and for most it is ***incredibly*** difficult to leave that situation and for a child it’s even harder to understand what’s happening ***isnt*** normal. Of course he’d return. He only ever wanted his father to love him
Iroh honestly is my favorite character out of every tv series I’ve watched in the last 29 years. The Avatar the last airbender has been hitting different now that I’m older and I’m really enjoying it more. Now I’m the fire chief at my department, a lot of the struggles Aang was feeling honestly have been more relatable as I moved up through the ranks. This show is the GOAT
_Hold up_
Iroh isn't perfect, but his shortcomings in no ways make him responsible for Zuko's outlook pre-reform..? He's not at fault for another persons, specifically a _teenager's_ failures and jaded worldview
Hey friend, thanks for commenting! I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I'm not sure what it would mean for characters not to be responsible for each others actions: that's an integral part of any drama, isn't it? But I think I just didn't understand you fully.
Edit: I changed this a bit because I didn't understand that you weren't asking a question until a second ago.
In cross roads of destiny Iroh gave zuko the worst possible advice and was to look inside himself and find he wants. the problem is all zuko wants is to return home be with his father again.
No Iroh wants him to realize that being with his father is not what he truly wants and Zuko is like 10 days away from learning it himself
@@carsondubs
Iroh never said the Ozia was in the wrong about anything or that he was against what the fire nasion was doing. if had called out Ozia for his bad parenting things might have been deferent.
i dont think iroh accepted zuko doing the wrong thing! i think he knows zuko has to learn things for himself and he is able to give him a small push in the right direction but none the less zuko has to get it himself instead of beeing told what the right thing is
Huh. I've heard A LOT about the scene where Iroh yells at Zuko, but this is the first time I cross someone being critical about it.
I see others point out that all kids need to be scolded from time to time, especially when it's about them putting their lives in danger, and totally see their point. Over the course of Book 2 and especially Book 1, Iroh has managed to stay insanely chill about Zuko not thinking through and doing so many dangerous stuff. His parenting is the exact opposite of Ozai's, as humble Iroh dosen't at all let himself get seized by any desire of power and control that is so characteristic to the rest of his family. Iroh has always known letting Zuko choose by himself was the right thing for him to do, and that patience is a virtue that gets rewarded... but Iroh still loves him, and definitely does NOT want to lose another son. Looking at things from his perspective, Iroh remaining socratic and not letting himself go overprotective this entire time is to me nothing short of incredible.
Let's be real on this, Iroh is not a god : he's a man who's learned from his past mistakes (which were probably horribly huge at the time) and found himself a new life in humility, and that dosen't mean he's going to stop making mistakes (and he does make some from time to time, like staying too long in the water and getting caught by earthbenders, consuming a poisonous plant, not see Azula's blast coming in time, etc.), and he knows it and he's okay with it, precisely.
In contrast, both Zuko and Azula HATE making mistakes and the irony is that this way of reacting is a big part of what's preventing Zuko from deciding to sit down for a damn minute to think properly. And Iroh knows it, and his challenge is to be able give Zuko the space he needs to eventually decide to chill on his own while still keeping an eye on him so he dosen't get himself killed.
So considering this, I won't blame Iroh too much for losing patience here and being a little bit too sure of himself in his words to him in the crystal catacombs. It's not like things could get VERY dirty because, oh idk, AZULA is around taking control of everything ? Iroh was probably feeling quite understandably under pressure at that point and might have thought Zuko had already had his change of heart and what he needed was a more forceful nudge in the right direction.
That said, I TOTALLY agree with you about the effect yelling at him had on Zuko. If we know something for sure, it's that the guy is very easily influenced by a father figure and receiving another stab in his already very conflicted feelings was definitely too much for him to take at that point.
I've also heard people say that one of main reasons Zuko was acting very nice after he woke up from his illness is because he had finally SLEPT a little more. And though I do agree Zuko definitely seems like the type that dosen't sleep very much because he's so plagued with conflicting thoughts and reluctant to allow himself to relax as he views it as shameful, and that lack of sleep is probably a factor that worsens his already bad temper, I still was VERY disturbed by his behavior in The Guru. It was horrible how I couldn't let myself think the hug to his uncle was sweet because I just KNEW something was very wrong as it definitely was NOT Zuko I was seeing here. It's definitely a very interesting take to present Zuko acting that nice being actually just as wrong as acting as an asshole because his father brutally pushed him to do so. So yeah. Again, it really couldn't have turned out any better than the way it did afterwards in the show, to the last detail. I sooo love how obvious it is that the writers loved Zuko as much as Iroh did and gave him such a satisfying story in the end. Truly perfect. 👌
So yeah, I've been willing to detect what exactly it was that had made the "too nice Zuko" scene seem so fishy to me, but you're the one who've managed put that in words before I did so thanks a lot for this. ❤
Thank you so much for your thoughts on this! So many years later, I'm still digesting all of the character and plot ramifications of these decisions, especially with regards to Zuko’s storyline. I was just reading a Tumblr meta last night about why it's so difficult for Azula and Ozai and Zuko to accept any imperfections and it was really interesting because they compare the fire nation directly to Imperial Japan. The fire nation is a ticking time bomb of people can blast fire at each other and if they're not kept under a very strict ruling hand, the nation can literally burn to the ground. So the royal family has learned to be extremely strict and cut-throat. They have to be hard and imposing to prevent total chaos (which they compare to Japan's Warring States period). Imperfections can mean death and destruction. So I liked what you said about the way Iroh has had to learn to accept imperfections as being human. He’s a lot more comfortable with his imperfections due to hard work and unlearning (I assume). I must say that I wasn't the first person that came up with the general idea that Iroh makes a mistake in this moment by accidentally reenacting zuko's relationship with his father. I derived that idea from another meta that I saw on Tumblr like a decade ago, but for the life of me I cannot figure out where to find it now. I really wanted to give that person credit but I just don't even know where to look for at anymore. But most of the video's commentary was me lol
Thanks again! ❤
@@timecapsule7842 You’re very welcome ! ☺
I love discussing in depht about masterpieces like ATLA. This show’s most incredible archeivement to me is how you can always appreciate the vast majority of its content no matter how much thought you want to put into it. If you don’t want to see it as more than just as a carefree adventure in a fantasy world where the good guy defeats the baddie in the end, you can still have a great time with it. But it’s when you do try to think stuff through and try to find the reasons for litterally anything that’s happening that you start to notice how truly clever details and deeper themes are portayed, and you never get dissapointed as ATLA always praises its viewers’ intelligence while keeping the content dynamic and fun. There are very few inconsistencies in the plot and many ways you can use your own way to theorize everything that remains slightly, partially or fully englobed in mystery.
For instance, one thing that I'm currently wondering about is the history of relationships Azulon had with the rest of his family. Like, how exactly did it spiral down from the seemingly rather peaceful and prosperous period in Sozin's youth through him, then Ozai, to end up with the absolute insanity that Azula turned out to be. Like in many irl royal families in History, the causes of it's issues probably aren't as simple as having just one person that's messing everything up, but rather a vicious chain and cycle of desire for power, mistrust and dissimulation (just look at how insincere everything feels in the Zuko section of Nightmares and Daydreams) between all its members. The little that we see of Azulon in Zuko Alone, he starts out by calling out on Ozai for having the nerve to ask to be the heir right after Lu Ten's death, and it's just as you start thinking that Azulon might not be as bad as Ozai that he goes like "and btw I want you to kill Zuko"... Yet, it's indeed so messed up that I've seen some theorize that Azulon did not truly intend this as he was probably not stupid enough to let them lose another precicious heir and was just testing him or smth and that Ozai and Azula sort of misunderstood and took it to heart or whatever. Or maybe Azulon simply favored Iroh in all senses and starkly hated Ozai's guts for some reason. It can be so many of these options, and they sadly all seem to be able to fit in as absolutely nothing works in this rotten "family" anyways.
I'm not very familiar with the History of Japan, but I believe I can totally see your point about the whole philosophy that comes out the Fire Nation. Even though the show eventually reveals that in the original source of the element's bending (from the dragons), it was not seen as a force only made for destruction, but rather just energy and life itself that can be used both for good or bad depending on the user’s intentions (Zuko vibes intensifying), because almost nobody in the current ATLA has met the Sun Warriors, they all seem to view Fire only as agression and destruction. Way I see it, the war has basically deeply impacted and "corrupted" (for lack of a more fitting term) everybody's view of the element, starting with the center of the Fire Nation itself. Just take a look not only at the indeed control- and discipline-obsessed royal family, but also at someone like master Jeong Jeong, who goes so far as to consider firebending as a "curse" entierly. The reasoning indeed being that as Fire is the most unstable of the 4, much discipline is required in order to keep it from destroying its own people, and that they found a compromise in harnessing its great energy in themselves to fuel their own willpower to control it. So the "corruption" happens as getting so focused and desperate in the whole "Controlling" part makes people forget about the "Why", which is not much more than to protect each other and live peacefully, just like people in any other Nations are striving for, and so their separation indeed being more of an illusion in reality, as Guru Pathik rightfully states.
That said, I need to admit I'm always looking for new ATLA content, though today I gotta say that among the sheer amount of various interpretations in fan content that I see coming out of it, there is really nothing that I'd like to see more than a biographic movie about Iroh. There is so much stuff we could dive deeper in and learn about his story and arc, his family, Lu Ten, the war, the White Lotus, the Spirit World, the 4 Nations and so so much more. And so with another useless remake (in my opinion, don't care if it seems "better" than the 2010 movie, it's still pretty pointless and disrespectful in my mind to try and retell the same story when everyone strongly agrees that the original content is already downright unmatchable) brewed by official companies being under the spotlight as we're having today, I've never felt that desperate to be asking the fans to get creative. 😅
@@Cloudy-Wani664 Absolutely to all of that. I just binge watched The Dragon Prince, and they really delved into the meat of the question of "why" behind violence. And it's just that: fear and a desire for security. It's us compulsively relenting to the voices in our heads telling us that striking out will mitigate the threat, even though we ought to be smart enough by now to know that this will only bring more instability.
:D
Nice video essay!!! Not sure how the youtube algorithm decided to recommend me this when I don't even watch ATLA content like... almost ever, but I'm glad it did!
I think what you said was quite insightful and i agree with much of it. It definitely has always been an interesting dichotomy when you look at the first season of ATLA and Iroh's participation with much of Zuko's behavior. He always displayed a sense of reluctance and half-heartedness in his participation, but the fact he did so was nevertheless undeniable. Hope your channel grows and uhh, idk gets bigger. I wanted to leave a comment since I saw no-one else has, but seriously this is great and really well done!!! Keep up video good idk words yea channel grow I hope yes good mhmm. Engish clearly my forte.
Thanks so much!!
this is great. please keep doing what you do.
That's so kind! Thank you friend
6:38 did you also watch Hello Future Me’s avatar psychology videos or do you actually know what CPTSD is outside of that? Cuz ngl save for a couple people online talking about their experiences I didn’t know what it was before then
And I love that he covered Azula too cuz… idk it’s just sad…. As an adult I feel like i relate to her in a lot of ways, just like I related to Zuko in a lot of ways as a kid.
Edit: I’m not trying to be shady I just think it’s funny you bring it up when i rewatched that video for like the 2nd time
I don't remember seeing those specific videos, but I love Hello Future Me! (I'm p sure I'm mentioning him in my next video actually, talk about coincidence 😁)
I knew about CPTSD mainly because my best friend is getting a social work degree and is particularly interested in the topic.
I'm not offended at all, it's a new subject in the common understanding. Azula really deserved a good season 4 redemption, though I don't necessarily trust Bryke to have handled it well, if I'm being honest.
2:25 did Mako voice Akoo?!
Hell yeah he did!! I mean, obviously not in season 5, but he was Aku throughout the original run. What a legend
Hope you're feeling better now
Aw thanks! Yeah I'm better 😊