You can't forget that LBJ also picked his own teams traded over 70 players played with more hall of famers. He had an Easier path and still couldn't duplicate MJ
When facing facts and truth about your favorite player or players, you will feel like they aren't being fair. But y'all wanted to compare him to Michael Jordan and soon as it isn't going the way you thought it would. Now you can't stomach the results. He didn't disrespect LeBron James. He just showed you the real differences between them and why would anyone even try to compare them, or convince others that he's on the same level as Michael Jordan. When he never been near what Michael Jordan was doing on the basketball court.
@@mikefromnyc4111You are struggling very hard to take the credits from Jordan. What is a good coach if his player (s) can't play to instruction to win?
@@mikefromnyc4111LeBron picks his coaches too, he normally picks less experienced coaches so he can run it. Maybe he shouldn't do that and he'd win more, but his ego won't allow that, he thinks he's a genius.
People say MJ was just a player but he the one finding Dennis to bring him back to practice! MJ lost with Phil Jackson too! So did Kobe! And the best coach LBJ had was Erik bruh! P.S. Phil had never coached a professional game of basketball when he got to Chicago! My point is a coach is only as good as the players execution! I can tell you how to win but you still have to go out and get the job done!
MJ made Phil the goat coach and Phil made MJ the goat. Goes both ways. It's funny how Bron stans say he had an amazing coach but ignore that Phil was a nobody until he started to coach MJ 😂😂
That and Lebron chose to go to the Heat where he lost a finals to the Mavericks, chose to go back to Cleveland, and chose to go to the Lakers. You can't make excuses for his choice to go to teams where he had to help coach.
MJ is so far ahead of LBJ on so many levels, more context still wouldn’t change the outcome. MJ is the GOAT. End of discussion. Next discussion for LBJ is is he legitimately #2?
He's not 2 or 3, if we really take an OBJECTIVE look at his career. I had him at 5 before the end of this past season, but I have to drop him to 6 because he couldn't get his team to even the play-in and for one who's supposed be able to make his teammates better, that has to count against him.
Lebron had Pat Riley....who is the only coach to tell Lebron GTFOH trying to run the team. Lebron trying to be GM is HIS choice...its something he doesn't have to do but wants to control everything. This why some players refuse to play with him. FACTS....he can just about play. The Lakers is his fault...he brought all those old players there and now he's blaming them....exactly how he has been for every team he's been on.
To your point on the video not mentioning Phil Jackson, I would ask you who was Phil Jackson before he joined Michael? What did he win before joining Michael? Weren’t Phil Jackson’s first titles as a professional coach with Jordan? Everyone brings Phil Jackson into the conversation, and yes, he did help Michael in his career but Jordan has merit in that because by allowing Phil Jackson to coach him it goes to show that Michael was coachable, whereas LeBron has to be his own coach because he is not coachable, he doesn’t take orders from anybody. And when you say that LeBron’s best coach was Tyrone Lue, are you forgetting that Eric Spoelstra has been named one of the best coaches in NBA history? So let’s be fair and remember that Phil Jackson didn’t win before he joined Michael, he wasn’t the 11 time champion coach that he ended up his career being when he joined Michael.
@@mikefromnyc4111 , At the of the day Phil J ain't on the court executing the offense/defense. A lesson you should learn from The Last Dance is that MJ was the one his teammates feared looked up to on the level of performance. That he contributed much to the Bulls succes--granted. If he was that great why didn't he go undefeated with the Lakers? LJ was not as coachable; he had to be in charge. He did have a good coach in Miami, Spoelstra. But history shows he's gotten his way but it has but him in the a#$ more than once. So the argument you're making is a wash.
@@mikefromnyc4111 Phil Jackson’s “proven system” is a system that was created by Tex winters who was with the bulls organization before Phil Jackson. Before phil became the coach tex taught him the triangle and when Phil became the coach he implemented the offense and brought on Tex winters to his coaching staff.
@mikefromnyc... on that I agree i'm terms of the meditation and mindset. Although it was his first headcoaching gig and it was completely experimental as a rookie coach. At least Spoelstra had Pat Riley in his ear fir advice and pretty much the defacto coach in Miami.
+ you mentioned that MJ has Phil and had a good organisation which is an advantage but it goes both ways. MJ never got to decide who his franchise recruited and pretty much had to win with what he had. In the other side Lebron has the luxury of jumping from team to team when things don't go his way and make super teams left and right with his friends and despite that still didn't win as many rings as MJ which is his fault if he didn't choked against Dallas he would have 5 right now with a 3 pit and if he didn't have ruined this Lakers team right now by taking Westbrook he would be the favourite to win the next ring. Imagine if MJ could have say "Hey fuck that, I can't win here so let's team up with Karl Malone and Stockton (or Olajuwon or Draxler in their prime)" how many rings would he have right now?
Yep & I'll never understand how the narrative has changed with Lebron going to Miami. Back when he was with Miami all everyone was talking about how it was a really weak move just for an easier chance to win titles. Yet nowadays the media & more fans than not don't even discredit his move to Miami anymore. In the media Charles Barkley is one of the only ones these days that still mentions how Lebron forming super teams all the time or joining up with other star players should affect his legacy. I'll just say Lebron is an all time great & an elite player but I don't think he's even a top 3 all time player. He's without a doubt a top 10 player & possibly top 5 but definitely not top 3, 2nd or the greatest ever.
@@johng4099 100% agree with you. Thank you...he's not top 3 and he shouldn't be considered top 3 on ANYONE'S list, if they're being completely objective. I had him at 5 until the end of this past season because I dropped him to 6 because not making the playoffs has to count against him. I agree with everything you said, bro
HAHA, MikefromNYC might "call statistics a tie." That's pretty funny. MJ has no equal Jordan on Offense 30.1ppg for his career, most in NBA history 33.4ppg career playoffs average, most in NBA history 33.6ppg in 6 Finals appearances, most in NBA history 41.0ppg in a Finals series, most in NBA history 10 Scoring titles, most in NBA history 10 seasons with 2,000+ points, most in NBA history Jordan with Analytics PER (Player Efficiency Rating): Highest in history for both the regular season (27.91) and the playoffs. (28.6) Win Shares per 48 (WS/48): Highest in history for both the regular season (.2505) and the playoffs (.2553) Box plus Minus: Highest in history for both the regular season (9.22) and the playoffs (11.14) VORP per Game: Highest in history for both the regular season (.1083) and the playoffs(.1382) Jordan on Defense He was the first player in history to be selected to 9 All Defensive First teams. He was the first player in history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season, it has still only been done by 3 players. (Michael did it twice). He was the steals leader 3 times. He's the only guard in history, relative to his position, both in the Top 5 for blocks and Top 5 for steals. He was the defensive Player of the Year and Scoring Champion in the same year, the only player in history to accomplish this. His 131 blocks for the 1988 season is still the most blocks in a season by a guard in NBA history.
Love your takes young blood. But one thing you gotta understand is Bron typically doesn't want to be coached. He left Cleveland where he had a great catch in Mike Brown. He passed on the opportunity to go to San Antonio to play for Pop and he left Miami because he didn't have full control of that team and organization. Also he plays in a system where he likes to dominate the ball vs playing off ball in a coaches system. This is why alot of his stats are also inflated to a degree. He's a great player but his having to do everything is mainly due to his own doing.
@@mikefromnyc4111 Reformulations occur all of the time in data science. That fact that you complained about the reformulation just shows your ignorance in the subject; it was redone because some conclusions did not make sense. You have absolutely no argument here. Also judging statistics by game is the best way of getting a fair comparison between both players statistically speaking. Going in the route of longevity is COMPLETELY nonsensical. You need to keep your emotions in check.
Throughout the video you kept noting that other guy wasn't mentioning Jordan's advantage of having Phil as a coach. You neglect to mention the advantage Lebron had/has of the ability to jump to new teams, joining with other superstar(s), and having a major influence on who is and isn't on the team. Imagine if Jordan joined forces with Hakeem on the Rockets, or with Ewing on Knicks, or with Barkley on the Suns.
Actually MJ didnt have an advantage of having phill as a coach. Phil has not proven anything at that point in his career. He wasn't the Phil "greatest coach in nba history" Jacskon at that time. He was a new coach at that time and the team grew together and won together. It's lebron's fault of not embracing a coach's system and he always wants a "Lebron's system" wherever team he goes. I thought coach Blatt was a very good coach but lebron just kicked him out because he doesnt want how Blatt was coaching the team.
@@esllorin84 I was just Finna say that. Phil was a Rookie coach PHIL at the time & He is who he is Because Jordan/Pip took Tex Winters system along with Phil’s ability to connect with his players implemented it on the court into 👉🏽WINNING 🏆🏆🏆🪦⚾️🏆🏆🏆👈🏽& Which ultimately insured that SHAQ/Kobe bought in which Made PHIL the 🐐 Phil Jackson not the other way around
“Michael Jordan got to just be a player” There was not a single year in the NBA where Michael was “just a player”. Whether it was in practice or during a game, there was no person demanding more from his team than Jordan and instructing his teammates what to do and how to do it, etc. This is made evident not just from the Netflix series, but from other interviews with former players and even Phil himself.
This is facts. The sports media fanboys run the narrative that Lebron makes his teammates so much better, but in reality, it was Jordan that did that...he just had a harsher, stricter maybe even meaner way of doing it. Everyone may not agree with MJ's methods of making his teammates better, but push come to shove, they were ready when he needed them. The results speak for themselves.
Phil Jackson went 6-0 with MJ. But Went 5-2 with Lakers. 3-1 with kobe and Shaq. 2-1 with kobe and Pau. Not to mention the 4-1 loss to Detroit and Larry Brown.
Yup. Seems like he didnt reply to this comment. Bad take for him tbh and quite frankly, its not the coaches who wins games, It's the PLAYERS executing. Bringing up a coach was pretty asinine idea to me. People need to stop discrediting Jordan, specially these young bucks. Im sick and tired of people ignoring what Jordan was and what he did in the game of basketball, oh wait they weren't around to actually watch the GOAT play. They weren't even born then, mb.
The reason why you go game to games basis is because it shows you how effective what each individual was doing during the games. It's the most logical way to evaluate their abilities on the court and how they help their respective teams win the game.
No LeBron James doesn't know defensive schemes or offensive sets, Michael Jordan do, under the great Dean Smith, taught him that. Don't under estimate Michael Jordan's knowledge of the game of basketball. Because he have been trained extensively in college. That's why it's important to get that extra time. LeBron James never wanted to learn a system, that's why he does what they call the LeBron James system. Only he knows it.
For the most part...great reaction analysis. Few things.. it goes both ways man.. Phil benefited from having Jordan, Kobe, an Shaq as much or more. You think Pat Riley or Chuck Daily would have failed if they had that talent..? the great coaches know how to manage egos and utilize superstar talent. Also, you give LBJ all this credit for "being the coach" when many of us see it very different..we see lbj refusing to give up the box score he is so proud of to become part of a system (something they greats have been willing to do to win)..in turn we see bron being notorious for running coaches off. It's his way or he ain't on board. Also I've seen Bron throw in the towel to many times..that should be accounted for.
1000+ LeBron is politically very powerful and can get any coach but as much power as he has, he never pursued any legendary coach... as hard as any player that he wanted. The reason for this is a legendary level coach will dictate things and build a system and LeBron will be forced to play in a system. I believe LeBron want to have freedom to do his thing and an ALPHA coach will box him... thus Every LeBron team doesn't operate within a system, because the preferred coach will defer to the system which is LeBron... how many times has LeBron never listened or even veto his coach? That's the reason why whenever LeBron left a team, the team become bottom dwellers because they have zero idea how to play as a team, within a system... because the system left for another team. The coach barely develops players to play outside of LeBron, especially when LeBron plays plenty of minutes. That's why having LeBron as THE system it would be best to have superstars who can continue to carrying the team, once LeBron rested.
It goes both ways tho, Phil made the Bulls & Lakers better teams, but the players on those teams also made him a better coach. Phil wasn't an all-time great coach when he got the head coaching job with the Bulls, he had no head coaching experience at all. He was an assistant coach who got promoted due to the firing of the previous head coach. This was in 89', it wasn't until 91' they started winning. Which was the year Pippen finally developed into a star. Each following year they won, Phil and his players made each other better and better. By the time he started coaching the Lakers he had all the years of coaching Jordan and the Bulls under his belt. Which stars was he coaching now, Shaq (top 10 player of all-time) and Kobe (another top 10 all-time player) a carbon copy of Jordan, making his job a little easier in my opinion. 4 years later, a 3-peat. You're telling me Spoeltra (a great coach Lebron had) couldn't coach those ridiculously talented teams to similar success?
Very true. Great point. I think some fans give Phil TOO much credit, forgetting that he was basically a nobody coming onto the Bulls. And what Phil's major contribution was, was getting MJ to learn to trust his teammates and being able to handle the egos of star players. Tex Winter is actually the brainchild of the Triangle Offense.
You do know that what I am about to do is show you what you are up against. Here are the playoffs and finals records for all the ones that have records in them. Wilt Chamberlain has 15 playoffs records, Bill Russell has 13 playoffs records, Kareem has 5 playoffs records, Kobe Bryant has 5 playoffs records, and LeBron James has 6 playoffs records for a combined total of 44 records. Michael Jordan has a total of 42 playoffs and finals records. Michael Jordan almost have half of the entire records by himself. Now you know something.
So when lebron is in his 35th season on the bench and his team wins the champions ship. That ring will make him as good as Jordan lol. He’s already 7 years over what Jordan played and I’d still a hall of fame worth career behind Jordan.
Please don't do the Phil Jackson thing? The Bulls was Phil's first head coaching job. All the wins Phil Jackson had up until 1998 were coaching Jordan. Phil wasn't his coach when he won his first MVP, scoring title or dpoy. LeBron is uncoachable. If he's the coach of his team then he's a terrible coach. Plus he can't play in a real system hence the reason he has to coach his teammates. They're used to playing regular ball so he has to show them how to adjust to him.
Remember before Phil Jackson, got his break as head coach, he was only an assistant coach, and Michael Jordan the year before was in the eastern conference finals, yet the Michael Jordan trained named Scottie Pippen, had a major migraine headache, and Michael Jordan faced them alone and almost beat them with all their talent on the floor. So yeah contexts does matter. As a matter of fact Michael Jordan didn't have, or ever asked for any other caliber superstar players, ever. He believes he could win with what he has. No matter what he has on his team.
Lol..bias? Nah my dude, he said in the beginning it's all about what happened on the court. Phil Jackson is irrelevant in that conversation. Coaches coach, players play. Lebron didn't win a ring until he hopscotched his a$$ to Miami and teamed up with to other max contract players (but that's irrelevant in this discussion too)..
@MIKEFROMNYC Pat Riley is every bit the coach Phil Jackson is...the Miami Heat organization is a great organization, better than Chicago...if you watched the Last Dance, you saw how the Bulls front office treated the players and Phil Jackson...none of that nonsense was going on in Miami
Just like it's not Michael Jordan fault that things happen to shorten his time in the NBA, and how LeBron James has had everything basically given to him to succeed. Except for his first nine years in Cleveland. After that they started making all trades available to him, even breaking up an entire team in mid season. Unheard of before, until the NBA allowed it for LeBron James, and only LeBron James.
I'm not an expert on box plus minus but I think I understand why they changed it once Westbrook shattered it. It all goes back to context. All them triple doubles he was getting looks good on paper but a lot of the times he would cherry pick defensive rebounds by standing in the corner after missed shots. Defensive rebounds are easier to come by when you're not playing good perimeter defense. Hell even lebron late in his career especially sags off on defense and gets those easy ass rebounds. Offensive rebounds is a much better way to determine how effective or good a rebounder is. Oh btw, michael jordan for his career averages more offensive rebounds than Lebron James. I need to study deep.on box plus minus and other stats to learn more but I'm just assuming that's the reason why they changed its fundamentals.
He wasn't bias, you just don't see, he left out way more to make it kinda fair for LeBron James to be in this comparison. If you add too much of all the other things Michael Jordan does well it's a game over even before you go any further in the video. Instead of trying to think that LeBron James is able to match what Michael Jordan has accomplished. Go and just look at Michael Jordan on defense. And then go and look how he explains offensive plays, and watch he explains defensive plays and the sheer difficulty and amount of energy to play at that level and perform on both sides of the court. We will never see any like him for a long time. Their are no comparisons that make sense.
I'll be honest I was blessed to watch Michael Jordan play I was born and raised in Chicago of 56 years old Michael is a freak of nature once in a generation talent he was literally the best at every facet of the game I was able to see him live against the trail blazers in the finals and it's true he's like a video game with cheat codes to see him live is phenomenal I told me to sound biased but in my eyes he's the greatest ever for real
Let him get there, because the way Michael Jordan played, he could easily hit a shot like that all day. He hit shots with his eyes closed, in real games. And he hit shots blind folded gambling with his teammates for money.
And make sure young man u put in ur context that LeBron has went from Cleveland to Miami to join Wade and Bosh to win his first chip Jordan never left his team that drafted him he stuck it out he didn't go join magic or bird or any great player at that time why he wanted to beat those guys he wanted wat they had wanted to join that elite brotherhood of champions and then do something that none of them did three chips in a row first three peat which hadn't been done since Bill Russell Celtics in 1960s when at that time was on nine teams in the league he retired in 93 cuz his father got murdered came back and won three mo chips and errybody says if he never retired safe to say he would have went to eight straight finals and would have been eight for eight now that content for u and nobody's done it since Jordan Kobe came close but close is not doing it Jordan did it 2 3peats in the same decade now that's a mic drop
Great reaction, you made some good points, but about the Jackson's point, you're forgetting something that many other forget. Today Jackson is regarded as one of the best coach of all time with 11 rings, but in 1990 he was a former player who have accomplished nothing in the NBA and actually many in the past said that Jackson was lucky to win this many rings as he coached 4 of the best players ever MJ, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe and really had he coached the Bulls in late 70s or if he was coaching the LA Clippers in the 80s/90s a doubt we would have heard about him. So to your point, Jackson was a great coach, but they won cause the team was very well balanced and actually I believe what Krause said about the fact that organisations win championships is totally true! As a matter of fact he was so great as a GM that he knew that the only way to win was to get a bunch of good role players around MJ instead another superstar, than Pippen became a superstar, thanks to MJ but is not that they got a star to pair with MJ. On the other hand LeBron you are right he did a lot more than the player, but in my opinion if he decided to do more the player and less the GM he would be a better shooter and made a more interesting comparison with MJ!
Who was Phil Jackson before he coached Jordan? Yes, the triangle was perfect for that Bulls team, but Jordan was still Jordan when he came into the league. Did Jordan make Pippen better?... you bet. Pippen developed that edge, because he wasn't that great when he first entered the league. MJ was so serious about the game, winning and even in practise. Kukoc thanked Jordan because he kicked their butts in practises. He said their practises were often harder than the games. To me, and to so many who witnessed it firsthand, MJ was the factor that put that team past everyone... having MJ's leadership made them feel that they could not lose. Because they fought some close battles in the 90s, but the Goat always found a way to win and was the x-factor.
Ask Alyha, age is nothing but a number. When you decide to make the leap into the league, you are now a professional basketball player. Nobody no matter the age has an excuse, including Michael Jordan, who had actual crackhead on his team in his first year, and he still got them to the playoffs every year even with a broken foot. His entire time as a Chicago Bull's. So you see. It doesn't matter, either you make it or you don't.
I'll give you credit. Unlike a lot of people who watch this video you seemed to understand that numbers require context and cumulative stats alone don't tell the whole story. So many people who react to this video just want to say "but what does the cumulative say? Who has more?" completely ignoring how scheme and position affect certain stats.
I've watched several of these and you are the first to bring up something I had to think about. Mainly the coach...I believe Phil did help get more out of Jordan but I think that could be nullified by the amount of physicality that was in the game back then. As biased as he sounded I'm surprised he only referenced that in the longevity section and not in statistics and eye test. That was a good reaction..keep up the good job.
Thanks for reactimg to this video. I suspect that you are someone who leans towards LeBron as your favorite - and it upset you a bit to see undeniable facts that favor Jordan. But, to your credit, you were pretty fair in your reactions and commentary.
It's not unfair though. LBJ clearly got the tick mark for longevity. So per game comparisons is the only thing we can check when we are comparing primes.
Notice the only reason that Box Plus Minus was redone was because that would've favored LeBron if it came out that way because MJ was already leading in that category. He only redid them because of what Westbrook did hoping that it was flawed enough to favor James but as the FACTS have it ...it favored Jordan more by default.
Aside from shooting around .332 when he was a bull, thats almost the avg 3pt % back then, and because how it was played, I did the numbers on another video wherein MJs 3pt percentage in 6 seasons when he shot more than 1 3pA. .352 on 2.9 attempt, .500 on 1.9 attempt, .376 on 3.0 attempt, .427 on 3.2 attempt, .374 on 3.6 attempt. That averages to 0.4058 on 2.92 attempts and an era where advanced analytics where not available.
Said quote about how Jerry Reinsdorf deals with coaches "There is a perception problem and when you come from the outside like Arturas did and Marc Eversley have? You know what that perception problem is. The way they’ve treated them(coaches)commodities for three or four decades. The way they fire guys on Christmas Eve. So there’s a perception problem that I think these guys want to change coming in now to this. That the old regime didn’t care about nor did they maybe even see fully"
Enough with the Phil Jackson shit. Jordan lost with Jackson too. Damn. Also, how does LeBron make it neck and neck with one more ring when he lost 6 finals. Context.
Also Jackson has always coached the players that are talked about as the best ever. Two seasons before Jackson came to the Bulls Jordan won the scoring title, averaged 35, Won Defensive player of the year, Won the MVP. So it's not like Jackson just happened to come to the Bulls. I mean he's had Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal etc. Did he make them play that much better? I don't know I'm not a basketball fan I only watched when MJ played. And I can tell you he was torching the league from the jump. Out of college the Olympic team he was on beat the NBA All stars team. The only think that limited Jordan were people stopped talking trash. His 3rd year in he averages 37.1 and people talked trash about how he didn't play defense. So the following year he averages 35 and wins defensive player of the year. Any time anybody said stuff he would prove them wrong in a dramatic fashion. Some news reporter mentions how he can't hit 3 points before the finals...so the first game he breaks a record and hits 6 in the first half this is what he did. This is why although I'm not a basketball fan I am a totally huge Jordan fan.
In statistics, if your analytical tool produces anomalies, it is acceptable/ necessary to take a look at its accuracy of measurement. So it's not simply fair to opine that the originator was cooking the books in changing the Box Plus Minus tool. Very good analysis though!
Though Phil was an major part in the success of the Bulls, it was Tex Winters who came up with most of their strategies. Phil was great a reading the game and managing the players. I also see that someone noted that Erik was LBJ's best coach which correct. And let's not forget Eric, when he got the job was under the thumb of Coaching GREAT, Pat Riley. You kept speaking of context, well every single thing needs context and even then it still wouldn't matter. The results would be the same. Jordan's stats are from a 13 year play. So just imagine where really, 3 to 4 more years would have put him. Out for the 60+ games in his sophomore year, retired for almost 2 years and then a second time for 2 years. Would have been cool to see, but it didn't happen. So a game to game comparison speaks more about how they impacted the game. I mean, Magic Johnson is the overwhelming choice as greatest PG of all time and is on most people's Top 5 GOAT list...but guess what John Stockton has more assists than he has and why...he played longer. Hell, Isiah Thomas is even picked more so than Stockton in the greatest PG category. So in the end, context does matter. Just like everyone nowadays ACT like the Bulls were stacked and like Pippen came to the league on an all star level. MJ came in NBA ready and literally dominated individually. It took years to groom Pip AND Horace Grant.
I think the number one in point per game for small foward is either Elgin Baylor or KD. (Not 100% sure but I know that Elgin has better average points than LBJ for at least the regular season.)
That's not true, Phil Jackson ashe was just starting, told Michael Jordan that a great player can make other players better and greater. And Michael Jordan said I will train them in practice. Now you know the truth. Michael Jordan was way more than what they told you, are made others believe he was limited, when in fact he also was top ten on defense as well as number 1 on offense.
Did you forget about Pat Riley? (One of the greatest coaches of all time) When he was in Miami, Pat was there every day. Giving insite and coaching. There are a few other things I could bring up. But I don’t want this comment being to long. Good traction video. Probably the best one I’ve seen to the reaction.
Context don't changes nothing for winning, cause he mutually just ascribing to them their accolades that they receive individually for winning, and if you add context to winning, then Phil didn't coach Jordan on his Olympics winning, and also most of Jordan victories' is Jordan asking for the ball in fourth quarters from early' and dribble a bit and made his own space and then shoot or took it to the hoop and beat last buzzers of finals, this personal strong confident in one's own ability, LeBron don't got this
And that's an excuse Phil Jackson was nobody anybody knew he was a CBA coach never coached in the NBA he was brought in as Doug Collins assistant in 87-88 and LeBron had Eric spoletra in Miami and because Pat Riley wouldn't allow LeBron to try and gut the franchise he left went back to Cleveland remember it is the responsibility of the front office to run the team not the player the player not cutting his own check is he it's the owner perfect example when he left Cleveland for the second time they gutted the team for lebron giving away draft picks and it took Cleveland four yrs to get back to a competitive team look at them now fourth seed in the east, now look at the Lakers LeBron put that team together forcing an historic franchise to gut there team after winning a bubble chip giving away draft picks for the like of Russell westbrick Carmelo Anthony and so on and wat happened booted out playoffs first round last yr and very possibly not making playoffs this yr so wat does that mean it means as a player shut up and play if the front office makes moves they make moves but a player should not dictate whose coaching the team or whose playing on and for the team sure the front may come to u and say hey we about to make this move but all in all it's the owners and GM not the players watch and see wat happens at the next collective bargaining agreement all the advanced money is going to be cut a lot players forcing there way out becuz they don't like the situation or players joining up making super teams and all this time managing players not playing cuz they tired the league is soft the league has become less competitive because of that just look at the NBA's rating from the time Jordan played up to now it's terrible.
Phil won 3 straight with MJ, MJ "retired", Phil won 0 titles with same team minus MJ for 2 years, MJ returns, Phil won 3 straight. Phil then goes to LA to win titles with Kobe and Shaq. Has he ever coached a team to a title without MJ or Kobe and Shaq? (actual question, I'm not sure) Don't get me wrong, I think Phil was a good coach, but players win championships first and foremost.
Hey young buck, before Phil (who definitely deserves some credit) you can't name for me a single player whoever became very good much less great which means Jordan was a 1 man show for the first 5 or 6 years of his career and having to battle Bird's Celtics, Dr J's Sixers and Magic Johnson's Lakers by himself!! LeFlop James didn't have a ton of help during his first go with Cleveland but man to man and player to player James teammates were way better than Jordan's help!!! Pippin deserves more credit in my opinion than Phil Jackson does because Pippin ended the 1 man show that Jordan was!! You said "James has to be the Coach, GM, leader and best player" but you're a little off in your assessment of that because James threw a fit by leaving Cleveland because they wouldn't allow him to be those things so he left!!! He didn't have to be, but he definitely chose to be in those roles!! LeFlop James at the time of the making of this video he was 2nd to Karl Malone in points
James quit on his teammates, coaches and fans......many times He quit playing defense......many times. Jordan never quit. Did you get that? Jordan never quit. Quitters will never be GOATs. Checkmate James fans......you lose.
You want to include Phil Jackson. People forget that MJ was racking up stats when Phil wasn't there. If he Phil didn't come, he probably has more stats than what he has right now. He probably won't have that many rings, but he will have more stats. And to be fair, you were saying that the person who made thi video didn't define those statistics he mentioned, why would he? He was making a video comparison, not educational video. We can all write down those stats that was mentioned and search it ourselves. If he define all of those, the video will be way too long.
Im a larry bird fan and i know MJ is the Billy goat even bird magic kareem worthy hakeem and shaq agree. Larry bird said he was god on a basketball court and bird played with some legends just like he was. Both magic and bird recognised early on that MJ was going to eventually take over from them as they reached the end of their prime.
Action speaks louder than words, so it's no favoritism. Michael Air Jordan aka the King of Basketball, you can't except the truth? Kobe Bryant aka the Prince of Basketball is better than Labron and it's not mentioned. Labron is next to Charles Barkley for being a great player.
I also think its fair to talk about per game stats because that is how effective you were in any given game. LBJ came fresh out of high school because he was "NBA Ready" if that is true we can't penalize MJ for going to College because he wasn't "NBA Ready". That means that the scouts and GMs of the NBA believed LBJ at 18 was as good as MJ at 21! I would like to point out in MJ senior year of high school he averaged a thriple double but was not viewed as an NBA prospect. LBJ chose not to go to College MJ played in College for 3 years! You can't have it both ways. Either LBJ is so good he didn't need college or he was at a disadvantage because he didn't attend college. Same with MJ either he needed College to get better or he waisted time in College when he could've been building his NBA resume. If you only compare longevity stats then players that played longer at a lower level look better. Prime example John Stockton longevity stats say he is the greatest point gaurd of all time. He leads NBA history in assists and steals yet nobody is advocating for him being better that Magic or Curry! Because we know he played 20 years where as Magic and Curry have had less time on the basketball court, due to the retirement from HIV and Curry's many injuries. Also consider MJ was injured for a year and retired 2 times in his prime. It means MJ missed out on 4 years of excellence that would have more likely increased his per game stats then diminish them. Where as if you do the opposite and take out 4 years of LBJ career he would most likely lose some of his per game stats depending on which years you take out. You eliminate his higher scoring years and hell lose some per game points and a scoring title. Take out his lower scoring years and you run the risk of dropping his assists and rebounding numbers. MJ per game stats include his 2 Wizard years which drag down his per game stats and LBJ has never had a season as bad as MJs 2 seasons with the Wizards and MJ still boasts a superior per game average. Now imagine adding 4 more years of prime MJ to his numbers. Looking at it that way to be honest this is the fairest way to accurately compare them. MJs 2 retirements followed MVP championship seasons. And considering he was an All Star his first year in Washington averaging over 20 points 6assists and 5 rebounds. Its safe to assume a younger and healthier MJ could have easily maintained his MVP level play after his first and second 3peat. That being said I believe LBJ could've greatly benefited from college it's where he would have learned to respect the coaching and GM. LBJ didn't have to take on the roles he chose to. He actively tried to get his coaches and members of the front office fired everywhere he went. Miami had an excellent coaching staff, fantastic front office and still LBJ tried to get Erik fired this is a coach with 2 championships a coach of the year in 2017 and his team when healthy has been in the playoffs and recently in title contention. Not listening to the Coaches and GMs doesn't mean they're not good. Look at LA he had them trade away every young player they had and the results are well underwhelming. My point is LBJ insisted on being the coach and the GM he forced them into decisions they didn't agree with and his teams suffered for it. High caliber role players struggled and in the case of Kevin Love All Star talent faded. LBJ insisted on having these All Star players then pushed them outside of thier roles so he could succeed individually. Wade and Bosh adjusted enough to win 2 rings because they were mutidimensional players but players like Kyrie and Love suffered because they aren't. Kyrie needs the ball in his hands to be effective and Love need to be in the paint to grab offensive rebounds. With LBJ being so ball dominant and a driver they were forced to be spot up shooters on the wing which limited their effectiveness. I believe if LBJ was just a player he would have easily been better than MJ, but that is a position he willingly forfeited which is why mentality is so crucial to success. LBJ mentaliy is why he lost more than he won not the staff and not the team.
You make some good points you are probably right about if Lebron went to college he’d respect coaches more. I don’t think that there is anything Lebron could’ve done to be better than MJ I think him going straight to the league definitely helps his longevity case especially because he’s the quickest player to get to 5k points without that he’d be a fair amount further down on the scoring and assist list especially because he never averaged under 20 ppg I think the Stockton argument is fair but if Stockton had 2 or 3 rings that might be a different case because Lebron and MJ both have rings Curry and Magic both have rings Stockton doesn’t never really thought about the college thing but now that you say that Kobe did want Phil out of LA because he wasn’t his preference at the time so there maybe something to that. (Great comment)
@@mikefromnyc4111 Yeah but you also have to remeber why Stockton doesn't have any rings! He played in a tough conference and he wasn't the focal point of his team like Curry or Magic! The system was designed for Magic and Curry to succeed where as John team was designed for Malone to suceed! Plus they ran into the unstoppable force that was the 90's Bulls! And never did Stockton have as much talent around him as any of the players you named! The Jazz team was in no way bad but they were also less talented then every championship team for the players above! Also LBJ wasn't just young when he came into the NBA he was handed full control over a dead franchise! Because of players like Kobe who proved you can be great out of high school, (LA made him work for it) LBJ was allowed the freedom to run as a rookie out of High School! Kobe played 20 years and could have way more stats if he didn't spend the first few years tryna get off the bench and the last few years riddled with injuries. But I still believe with all the physical gifts and openness of todays game LBJ could've been better than MJ if he had more of an MJ or Kobe mentality! Which is also something he could've developed in college! The will to push forward, the ups and downs of March Madness, the importance of every single game because it's one and done, the criticism to work on his jumpshooting and freethrows! He needed structure instead he got the weight of MJ and free reign to let everything go to his head! If LBJ had a jumpshot that was a solid 40-45% and a FT that was 80%, with some never quit mentality, the man would have more rings, scoring titles, and less criticism from true fans of the game! And we really would have to ask who is better LBJ or MJ! I wont say his game would look as pretty as MJ I mean MJ is like poetry in motion but he would be as effect and at the end of the day that is what determines greatness in the eyes of the Fans that love the game!
LeBron doesn't need to coach and manage; he chooses to. And Jordan was continually telling his team mates what to do. This is a Jordan LeBron playing Basketball ball comparison not a managing comparison. The first 2 have 0 need of context it was accomplishments what you have done it speaks for itself. And longevity again is how long you did it for. Maybe the issue is your understanding of word meanings. As for statistics FG% is an exact measure of your shooting. True shooting is biased. To be exact you will need to add dunks, putbacks, layups, 3 feet, 8 feet, 15 feet and 3pt%. As he goes into.
Did u listen to Kobe bean Bryant talk about Jordan or anybody in the league they all said Jordan made the game look easy which is hard to do go back to 1984 when Jordan came in to the league watch the physicality of the game from 84 to the 90s maybe that will give u a better perspective on the game itself then form ur opinion and also what's mo impressive in a 13yr career with the bulls six chips in eight yrs compared to four chips in nineteen yrs in a league that's softer then yogurt and cotton
Lotta good takes lil bro. You get a like. But don't forget LBJ has major influence on the coaches he plays for & players he plays with. LBJ looks at himself as a player/GM. But yeah he didn't have Jerry Krause as a GM & Phil as a coach. And that does matter. And it's unfortunate that he couldn't get players to join him in Cleveland because the organization was garbage outside if LBJ. Other players consider these things when they choose who to play for
Lol @ thinking LeBron can be coached. He's known to be uncoachable, and 5 coaches have been fired under him. LeBron even tried to get erik spoelstra replaced as written in Pat Rileys book. It's not a matter of who LeBron had as a coach, cause it wouldn't make a difference. LeBron only plays under the LeBron system. He cannot play under any other system. He needs to be the ball dominant player, and he turns everyone else around him into basically a roleplayer. But what is this nonsense about him getting 1 more ring and he'll be up there with Jordan? Since when is being 5/11 as good as 6/6? So we just going to ignore the inexcusable losses? Like when he built a superteam stacked with 3 allstars and got whooped by a Mavs that only had 1 allstar while LeBron himself got outplayed by a bench player Jason Terry? Whereas Jordan only had 1 single allstar teammate his entire career and had the league on lock pretty much.
Phil Jackson wasn't a good coach at that time. Michael Jordan still lead his teams to victory, and when he left they didn't win within him. Even with Scottie Pippen on the team. And Scottie Pippen set out pouting for not getting the last shot he missed 7 times prior to not getting the last shot. Tony made that shot to take it to game 7 and they lost.
Stop cutting him off, because it doesn't favor who you want it to be. This man took his time to figure all this out. And if you think he's wrong. What you gonna think when you evaluate someone like Bruce Blitz.com. Because he does a deep study on of the players, past to present day. And he definitely knows who is the greatest basketball player of all times is, and he is gonna say Michael Jordan without question, and Kareem second greatest of all times and Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. You are not gonna like that he don't rank stats, rather than real game to game dominance.
Watching your video, I want to address the Phil Jackson comment. A lot of people make this argument. What had Phil Jackson done before Jordan? Phil is considered such a great coach in part because what he was able to accomplish with Jordan. Didn't do anything prior. Also, the argument can be made that Lebron had a great coach (2 actually) in Eric S. and Pat Riley in Miami and was still only able to win two titles and decided to leave because he wasn't able to get his way in Miami. Which leads into my last point, LeBron actually struggles in an environment where he isn't the defacto head coach. Lebron can only play on a team where he is the system. So no matter the coach, he has to play a specific style so the coach argument is pointless in my opinion
As someone who works in data analytics, if you see something that doesn’t make sense, or in the case of the Westbrook scenario … unless you think Westbrook should be in the GOAT discussion… if you find something that points out an obvious error in your formulas, you go back to test and verify. Thus, I could be operating an analytics report that shows our companies year over year growth and influence in our market share is 100%, but when applying common sense, we haven’t added any new clients, nor has our profit margin grown much and our competitors have pulled ahead… and even our EBITA is only a 10% increase…. Then those are all red flags there is an error with the formulas. Thus, while you would cry foul over the idea someone found an error that required correction and thus the ultimate results changed and favored someone else… analysts cry foul when an obvious flaw in an analysis is presented and is not corrected… Btw, it took the time extreme scenario of Westbrook to identify the flaw. These things are not always easy to identify when most of the results seem to make sense. The question is, after the fix, do they make more sense? Well, when you compile all of the other statistics which we are being given, YES.
It's not fair to try to suggest that MJ was only good because of Phil Jackson. I'm probably 3 times your age, so I don't expect you to have all the experiences, & memories that I do on the topic, but... Do you know anything about the *Team USA* vs *Team NBA* games that Jordan played years ago before he was in the NBA? *Olympics Team* vs *The NBA* . How about acknowledging the embarrassing 8-0 blowout that *Team NBA* suffered for the first time on National TV. Phil Jackson had no part of it. Also... Jordan's scoring average was very much higher before Phil Jackson came in. Jordan was playing SF, & Center (Like LeBron), & his scoring Average was off the charts at that time... his average was way too high, but when Phil came in, he saw that MJ was very energetic, & was covering other positions that were slacking off a little, so he moved MJ to Shooting Guard to better utilize his abilities, being the best player on the team, & MJ's scoring average dropped through the floor (To just " *Goat* " Status level points per game)... in comparison to his previous Average, which was much much higher. At the time, everyone was calling the Center positions, " *The Lazy Man* " positions, because you didn't have to burn much energy to get layups, put-backs, & dunks in. This increases your stats unfairly when compared to other more energetic, & worthy players who has to work for every point they get. This is why the stats formula had to be reworked. People with controlling interest of the team, wanted Jordan back at the old position, & Phil said NO. After they won their 6th Championship, those bullying owner level interests demanded that they put Jordan back to the old position so he can rack up points faster, because the games were too close for comfort, & again Phil said NO. This time, the owner level interests told him to either do it, or kick rocks. Jordan said that if Phil goes, He's out, & so did Pippin, & Rodman, & quite a few others. The rest, is history.
Lebron isn't a coach or the brains. Stop that. What about all the super teams he had to run to just to win chips? He's whipping Lebron with only 13 years.
LeBron had a Phil Jackson coach… he kinda owns Miami Heat… plus LeBron had more help with everything especially when he has someone to pass the ball to help in his assisting status, Kyrie, Love, Wade, Chris, Allen, AD, Westbrook, Camelo, Howard…
You don't want to add Jordan's college years... it would make it even more lopsided. Jordan was NCAA player of the year, won a NCAA championship, won an Olympic Gold Medal, and whooped the ass of an All-NBA Team consisting of prime Magic, Bird, and Thomas... all before joining the NBA.
Another thing, you act like Phil Jackson came in with a reputation. Phil Jackson's reputation grew with Michael Jordan. He didn't become the winningest coach without Jordan... and then Kobe. Lebron has nobody to blame but himself for his lack of coach. He went into situations with full control of being able to say yes or no to whomever his teammates were... as well as the coach.
Jordan wasnt just a player. You said it earlier. JR wasnt busting his ass for Lebron. Jordan didnt let people slack off. He was just as much a leader as Phil.
Yes. Michael played in a much tougher league that played defense. There was also traveling called. Lebron couldn’t survive In Jordan’s time with just those two categories. Then there is the demand for trades. That didn’t really occur then.
It’s always amusing listening to the Lebrun fan excuses especially when it comes to the fact Jordan had Phil Jackson lol look Lebrun is a player that just didn’t respect his coaches. Jordan on the other hand bought into Phil’s Philosophy, just as Kobe did Lebron never bought into his coaches for most of his career!
You say you wanted more context, yet if he would of added a lot more context, it would of made Lebron look even worse. He said Michael shot nearly 50% in the clutch, compared to Lebron's 20%, did you really need him to throw in all the clutch shots MJ made, watch the highlight video's. Lebron is lazy on defense, there is no comparison to MJ on defense. You use stats to complain about Michael, but on the first screen you never once said, well Lebron is so close, because he has played more years, so that gave him more chances. You watched this whole video complaining about everything that made MJ look good, and complaining about everything that made Lebron look bad. Thank you for reviewing this video, but when you look at everything, you have to admit MJ is the GOAT. You also mentioned how great Phil made the team with his coaching, but you skipped over the fact, that the first year MJ was playing baseball, the Bulls did not make it to the finals, if Phil was that great, what happened that year, Just saying, you have to be fair and honest, what got the Bulls 2 sets of 3peats, MICHAEL JORDAN!!!! nuff said
I really like the point you mention about Phil Jackson and coaching! Phil Jackson was the the missing piece of the puzzle piece with Jordan and the Bulls. The coaching of Phil Jackson and the Bulls might be the equivalent of Bill Russell's Celtics with Red Auerbach vs Wilt Chamberlains mighty career. Wilt never had that level of consistent coaching throughout his career like Bill Russell had with Red Auerbach. Its all speculative when comparing eras. That being said I think this video tried to strip everything away and try to focus on Michael Jordan and Lebron James strictly individual as much as possible.
Red Auerbach traded tickets to the ice Capades for the right to draft Bill Russell because black players weren't welcome on the other team. Phil Jackson inherited the Goat by stabbing the previous coach in the back and politically manipulating the back office at the Bulls. Yes, it's hard to compare eras.
The video you played says that Phil asked MJ "whose open" and Jordan said "Paxton" so I don't think that was Phil telling Jordan to pass to Paxton he asked Jordan whose open.
The most important statistics are GAME statistics (for players with pretty long activity) and not overall statistics. Who is better on assists: Magic or Stockton? Magic. Who is better at scoring? MJ or Kareem? MJ There is also the era context - when defense was strong (The 90s and early 2000s) and when was not (the 60s, the beginning of the 80s, today). Today, like in the 60s, it is a statistical inflation. The 3PTS era offers more open space to shoot and go to the rim. If you compare 22 Lebron with 22 Jordan etc until 35 ... MJ has an advantage in most years. Westbrook has a lot of turnovers (one of the all-time bests :) ).
For example. Until this year, my Bulls couldn't get any free agents because they had a rep for treating coaches like shit. I'll add a quote from the NBA coaches association prez Rick Carlisle
You can't forget that LBJ also picked his own teams traded over 70 players played with more hall of famers. He had an Easier path and still couldn't duplicate MJ
When facing facts and truth about your favorite player or players, you will feel like they aren't being fair. But y'all wanted to compare him to Michael Jordan and soon as it isn't going the way you thought it would. Now you can't stomach the results. He didn't disrespect LeBron James. He just showed you the real differences between them and why would anyone even try to compare them, or convince others that he's on the same level as Michael Jordan. When he never been near what Michael Jordan was doing on the basketball court.
Lebron definitely not my favorite player in terms of watching them I fav MJ that’s just my honest open
@@mikefromnyc4111You are struggling very hard to take the credits from Jordan. What is a good coach if his player (s) can't play to instruction to win?
@@mikefromnyc4111LeBron picks his coaches too, he normally picks less experienced coaches so he can run it. Maybe he shouldn't do that and he'd win more, but his ego won't allow that, he thinks he's a genius.
Phil became known as a good coach because of what he accomplished with MJ
People say MJ was just a player but he the one finding Dennis to bring him back to practice! MJ lost with Phil Jackson too! So did Kobe! And the best coach LBJ had was Erik bruh! P.S. Phil had never coached a professional game of basketball when he got to Chicago! My point is a coach is only as good as the players execution! I can tell you how to win but you still have to go out and get the job done!
MJ made Phil the goat coach and Phil made MJ the goat. Goes both ways. It's funny how Bron stans say he had an amazing coach but ignore that Phil was a nobody until he started to coach MJ 😂😂
That and Lebron chose to go to the Heat where he lost a finals to the Mavericks, chose to go back to Cleveland, and chose to go to the Lakers. You can't make excuses for his choice to go to teams where he had to help coach.
Yeah he doesn't understand what he is looking at his mind can't understand it.
MJ is so far ahead of LBJ on so many levels, more context still wouldn’t change the outcome. MJ is the GOAT. End of discussion. Next discussion for LBJ is is he legitimately #2?
he can pass Kobe
@@calvinford4924 There’s not a Laker fan on earth that would agree with that.
He's not 2 or 3, if we really take an OBJECTIVE look at his career. I had him at 5 before the end of this past season, but I have to drop him to 6 because he couldn't get his team to even the play-in and for one who's supposed be able to make his teammates better, that has to count against him.
Kobe could be the 2nd he's the closest thing to MJ and Kobe accomplishments is far more greater than Lbj even in championship
No excuses! MJ is the GOAT!
Lebron had Pat Riley....who is the only coach to tell Lebron GTFOH trying to run the team. Lebron trying to be GM is HIS choice...its something he doesn't have to do but wants to control everything. This why some players refuse to play with him. FACTS....he can just about play. The Lakers is his fault...he brought all those old players there and now he's blaming them....exactly how he has been for every team he's been on.
To your point on the video not mentioning Phil Jackson, I would ask you who was Phil Jackson before he joined Michael? What did he win before joining Michael? Weren’t Phil Jackson’s first titles as a professional coach with Jordan? Everyone brings Phil Jackson into the conversation, and yes, he did help Michael in his career but Jordan has merit in that because by allowing Phil Jackson to coach him it goes to show that Michael was coachable, whereas LeBron has to be his own coach because he is not coachable, he doesn’t take orders from anybody. And when you say that LeBron’s best coach was Tyrone Lue, are you forgetting that Eric Spoelstra has been named one of the best coaches in NBA history? So let’s be fair and remember that Phil Jackson didn’t win before he joined Michael, he wasn’t the 11 time champion coach that he ended up his career being when he joined Michael.
I believe Phil Jackson has a proven system and Lebron never had a coach that proved they could be trusted to that level of a Phil Jackson
@@mikefromnyc4111 , At the of the day Phil J ain't on the court executing the offense/defense. A lesson you should learn from The Last Dance is that MJ was the one his teammates feared looked up to on the level of performance. That he contributed much to the Bulls succes--granted. If he was that great why didn't he go undefeated with the Lakers? LJ was not as coachable; he had to be in charge. He did have a good coach in Miami, Spoelstra. But history shows he's gotten his way but it has but him in the a#$ more than once. So the argument you're making is a wash.
@@mikefromnyc4111 Phil Jackson’s “proven system” is a system that was created by Tex winters who was with the bulls organization before Phil Jackson. Before phil became the coach tex taught him the triangle and when Phil became the coach he implemented the offense and brought on Tex winters to his coaching staff.
@@LAsOwn I think Phil’s system is more than just the triangle even tho it’s a big part the meditation and mindset he implemented was also huge
@mikefromnyc... on that I agree i'm terms of the meditation and mindset. Although it was his first headcoaching gig and it was completely experimental as a rookie coach. At least Spoelstra had Pat Riley in his ear fir advice and pretty much the defacto coach in Miami.
+ you mentioned that MJ has Phil and had a good organisation which is an advantage but it goes both ways. MJ never got to decide who his franchise recruited and pretty much had to win with what he had. In the other side Lebron has the luxury of jumping from team to team when things don't go his way and make super teams left and right with his friends and despite that still didn't win as many rings as MJ which is his fault if he didn't choked against Dallas he would have 5 right now with a 3 pit and if he didn't have ruined this Lakers team right now by taking Westbrook he would be the favourite to win the next ring.
Imagine if MJ could have say "Hey fuck that, I can't win here so let's team up with Karl Malone and Stockton (or Olajuwon or Draxler in their prime)" how many rings would he have right now?
Exactly
Amen!
Yep & I'll never understand how the narrative has changed with Lebron going to Miami. Back when he was with Miami all everyone was talking about how it was a really weak move just for an easier chance to win titles. Yet nowadays the media & more fans than not don't even discredit his move to Miami anymore. In the media Charles Barkley is one of the only ones these days that still mentions how Lebron forming super teams all the time or joining up with other star players should affect his legacy. I'll just say Lebron is an all time great & an elite player but I don't think he's even a top 3 all time player. He's without a doubt a top 10 player & possibly top 5 but definitely not top 3, 2nd or the greatest ever.
@@johng4099 100% agree with you. Thank you...he's not top 3 and he shouldn't be considered top 3 on ANYONE'S list, if they're being completely objective. I had him at 5 until the end of this past season because I dropped him to 6 because not making the playoffs has to count against him.
I agree with everything you said, bro
HAHA, MikefromNYC might "call statistics a tie." That's pretty funny.
MJ has no equal
Jordan on Offense
30.1ppg for his career, most in NBA history
33.4ppg career playoffs average, most in NBA history
33.6ppg in 6 Finals appearances, most in NBA history
41.0ppg in a Finals series, most in NBA history
10 Scoring titles, most in NBA history
10 seasons with 2,000+ points, most in NBA history
Jordan with Analytics
PER (Player Efficiency Rating): Highest in history for both the regular season (27.91) and the playoffs. (28.6)
Win Shares per 48 (WS/48): Highest in history for both the regular season (.2505) and the playoffs (.2553)
Box plus Minus: Highest in history for both the regular season (9.22) and the playoffs (11.14)
VORP per Game: Highest in history for both the regular season (.1083) and the playoffs(.1382)
Jordan on Defense
He was the first player in history to be selected to 9 All Defensive First teams.
He was the first player in history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season, it has still only been done by 3 players. (Michael did it twice).
He was the steals leader 3 times.
He's the only guard in history, relative to his position, both in the Top 5 for blocks and Top 5 for steals.
He was the defensive Player of the Year and Scoring Champion in the same year, the only player in history to accomplish this.
His 131 blocks for the 1988 season is still the most blocks in a season by a guard in NBA history.
well damn
Love your takes young blood. But one thing you gotta understand is Bron typically doesn't want to be coached. He left Cleveland where he had a great catch in Mike Brown. He passed on the opportunity to go to San Antonio to play for Pop and he left Miami because he didn't have full control of that team and organization. Also he plays in a system where he likes to dominate the ball vs playing off ball in a coaches system. This is why alot of his stats are also inflated to a degree. He's a great player but his having to do everything is mainly due to his own doing.
I agree with that to some degree and his lack of sacrifice allowed his numbers to better
@@mikefromnyc4111 Reformulations occur all of the time in data science. That fact that you complained about the reformulation just shows your ignorance in the subject; it was redone because some conclusions did not make sense. You have absolutely no argument here. Also judging statistics by game is the best way of getting a fair comparison between both players statistically speaking. Going in the route of longevity is COMPLETELY nonsensical. You need to keep your emotions in check.
Throughout the video you kept noting that other guy wasn't mentioning Jordan's advantage of having Phil as a coach.
You neglect to mention the advantage Lebron had/has of the ability to jump to new teams, joining with other superstar(s), and having a major influence on who is and isn't on the team.
Imagine if Jordan joined forces with Hakeem on the Rockets, or with Ewing on Knicks, or with Barkley on the Suns.
Fair point
Actually MJ didnt have an advantage of having phill as a coach. Phil has not proven anything at that point in his career. He wasn't the Phil "greatest coach in nba history" Jacskon at that time. He was a new coach at that time and the team grew together and won together. It's lebron's fault of not embracing a coach's system and he always wants a "Lebron's system" wherever team he goes. I thought coach Blatt was a very good coach but lebron just kicked him out because he doesnt want how Blatt was coaching the team.
Fishball, I have the exact same sentiments ….X 1000%
@@esllorin84 I was just Finna say that. Phil was a Rookie coach PHIL at the time & He is who he is Because Jordan/Pip took Tex Winters system along with Phil’s ability to connect with his players implemented it on the court into 👉🏽WINNING 🏆🏆🏆🪦⚾️🏆🏆🏆👈🏽& Which ultimately insured that SHAQ/Kobe bought in which Made PHIL the 🐐 Phil Jackson not the other way around
“Michael Jordan got to just be a player”
There was not a single year in the NBA where Michael was “just a player”. Whether it was in practice or during a game, there was no person demanding more from his team than Jordan and instructing his teammates what to do and how to do it, etc.
This is made evident not just from the Netflix series, but from other interviews with former players and even Phil himself.
Fair
This is facts. The sports media fanboys run the narrative that Lebron makes his teammates so much better, but in reality, it was Jordan that did that...he just had a harsher, stricter maybe even meaner way of doing it. Everyone may not agree with MJ's methods of making his teammates better, but push come to shove, they were ready when he needed them. The results speak for themselves.
Phil Jackson went 6-0 with MJ. But Went 5-2 with Lakers. 3-1 with kobe and Shaq. 2-1 with kobe and Pau. Not to mention the 4-1 loss to Detroit and Larry Brown.
Yup. Seems like he didnt reply to this comment. Bad take for him tbh and quite frankly, its not the coaches who wins games, It's the PLAYERS executing. Bringing up a coach was pretty asinine idea to me.
People need to stop discrediting Jordan, specially these young bucks. Im sick and tired of people ignoring what Jordan was and what he did in the game of basketball, oh wait they weren't around to actually watch the GOAT play. They weren't even born then, mb.
@@SlaineReignsBut he has a point. Phil Jackson is on the mount Rushmore of coaches. But its just excuses ofc
The reason why you go game to games basis is because it shows you how effective what each individual was doing during the games. It's the most logical way to evaluate their abilities on the court and how they help their respective teams win the game.
No LeBron James doesn't know defensive schemes or offensive sets, Michael Jordan do, under the great Dean Smith, taught him that. Don't under estimate Michael Jordan's knowledge of the game of basketball. Because he have been trained extensively in college. That's why it's important to get that extra time. LeBron James never wanted to learn a system, that's why he does what they call the LeBron James system. Only he knows it.
For the most part...great reaction analysis. Few things.. it goes both ways man.. Phil benefited from having Jordan, Kobe, an Shaq as much or more. You think Pat Riley or Chuck Daily would have failed if they had that talent..? the great coaches know how to manage egos and utilize superstar talent. Also, you give LBJ all this credit for "being the coach" when many of us see it very different..we see lbj refusing to give up the box score he is so proud of to become part of a system (something they greats have been willing to do to win)..in turn we see bron being notorious for running coaches off. It's his way or he ain't on board. Also I've seen Bron throw in the towel to many times..that should be accounted for.
I get that
1000+
LeBron is politically very powerful and can get any coach but as much power as he has, he never pursued any legendary coach... as hard as any player that he wanted. The reason for this is a legendary level coach will dictate things and build a system and LeBron will be forced to play in a system.
I believe LeBron want to have freedom to do his thing and an ALPHA coach will box him... thus Every LeBron team doesn't operate within a system, because the preferred coach will defer to the system which is LeBron... how many times has LeBron never listened or even veto his coach?
That's the reason why whenever LeBron left a team, the team become bottom dwellers because they have zero idea how to play as a team, within a system... because the system left for another team. The coach barely develops players to play outside of LeBron, especially when LeBron plays plenty of minutes.
That's why having LeBron as THE system it would be best to have superstars who can continue to carrying the team, once LeBron rested.
It goes both ways tho, Phil made the Bulls & Lakers better teams, but the players on those teams also made him a better coach.
Phil wasn't an all-time great coach when he got the head coaching job with the Bulls, he had no head coaching experience at all. He was an assistant coach who got promoted due to the firing of the previous head coach. This was in 89', it wasn't until 91' they started winning. Which was the year Pippen finally developed into a star. Each following year they won, Phil and his players made each other better and better.
By the time he started coaching the Lakers he had all the years of coaching Jordan and the Bulls under his belt. Which stars was he coaching now, Shaq (top 10 player of all-time) and Kobe (another top 10 all-time player) a carbon copy of Jordan, making his job a little easier in my opinion. 4 years later, a 3-peat.
You're telling me Spoeltra (a great coach Lebron had) couldn't coach those ridiculously talented teams to similar success?
Very true. Great point. I think some fans give Phil TOO much credit, forgetting that he was basically a nobody coming onto the Bulls. And what Phil's major contribution was, was getting MJ to learn to trust his teammates and being able to handle the egos of star players. Tex Winter is actually the brainchild of the Triangle Offense.
players play the game not couches .
He's nowhere near Michael Jordan, when you really start going deeper into what Michael Jordan achieved.
You do know that what I am about to do is show you what you are up against. Here are the playoffs and finals records for all the ones that have records in them. Wilt Chamberlain has 15 playoffs records, Bill Russell has 13 playoffs records, Kareem has 5 playoffs records, Kobe Bryant has 5 playoffs records, and LeBron James has 6 playoffs records for a combined total of 44 records. Michael Jordan has a total of 42 playoffs and finals records. Michael Jordan almost have half of the entire records by himself. Now you know something.
So when lebron is in his 35th season on the bench and his team wins the champions ship. That ring will make him as good as Jordan lol. He’s already 7 years over what Jordan played and I’d still a hall of fame worth career behind Jordan.
Please don't do the Phil Jackson thing? The Bulls was Phil's first head coaching job. All the wins Phil Jackson had up until 1998 were coaching Jordan. Phil wasn't his coach when he won his first MVP, scoring title or dpoy. LeBron is uncoachable. If he's the coach of his team then he's a terrible coach. Plus he can't play in a real system hence the reason he has to coach his teammates. They're used to playing regular ball so he has to show them how to adjust to him.
I feel Tyron Lue is evidence that’s not true
@@mikefromnyc4111 ?
Remember before Phil Jackson, got his break as head coach, he was only an assistant coach, and Michael Jordan the year before was in the eastern conference finals, yet the Michael Jordan trained named Scottie Pippen, had a major migraine headache, and Michael Jordan faced them alone and almost beat them with all their talent on the floor. So yeah contexts does matter. As a matter of fact Michael Jordan didn't have, or ever asked for any other caliber superstar players, ever. He believes he could win with what he has. No matter what he has on his team.
Lol..bias? Nah my dude, he said in the beginning it's all about what happened on the court. Phil Jackson is irrelevant in that conversation. Coaches coach, players play. Lebron didn't win a ring until he hopscotched his a$$ to Miami and teamed up with to other max contract players (but that's irrelevant in this discussion too)..
thats definitely objective even tho I don't agree that there is no need for context I can respect the objectivty in your statement
@MIKEFROMNYC Pat Riley is every bit the coach Phil Jackson is...the Miami Heat organization is a great organization, better than Chicago...if you watched the Last Dance, you saw how the Bulls front office treated the players and Phil Jackson...none of that nonsense was going on in Miami
Kevin Durant is number 1 for the sf position in ppg
Phil was not a HOF Coach when he took over for Doug Collins… simple as that…
Did Phil even coach before he coached MJ
MJ all day youngin
Just like it's not Michael Jordan fault that things happen to shorten his time in the NBA, and how LeBron James has had everything basically given to him to succeed. Except for his first nine years in Cleveland. After that they started making all trades available to him, even breaking up an entire team in mid season. Unheard of before, until the NBA allowed it for LeBron James, and only LeBron James.
LeBron had a chance to be the smartest player on his team it didn't work for him so he went to Miami
I'm not an expert on box plus minus but I think I understand why they changed it once Westbrook shattered it. It all goes back to context. All them triple doubles he was getting looks good on paper but a lot of the times he would cherry pick defensive rebounds by standing in the corner after missed shots. Defensive rebounds are easier to come by when you're not playing good perimeter defense. Hell even lebron late in his career especially sags off on defense and gets those easy ass rebounds. Offensive rebounds is a much better way to determine how effective or good a rebounder is. Oh btw, michael jordan for his career averages more offensive rebounds than Lebron James.
I need to study deep.on box plus minus and other stats to learn more but I'm just assuming that's the reason why they changed its fundamentals.
He wasn't bias, you just don't see, he left out way more to make it kinda fair for LeBron James to be in this comparison. If you add too much of all the other things Michael Jordan does well it's a game over even before you go any further in the video. Instead of trying to think that LeBron James is able to match what Michael Jordan has accomplished. Go and just look at Michael Jordan on defense. And then go and look how he explains offensive plays, and watch he explains defensive plays and the sheer difficulty and amount of energy to play at that level and perform on both sides of the court. We will never see any like him for a long time. Their are no comparisons that make sense.
And doing both for almost all games without game management
I'll be honest I was blessed to watch Michael Jordan play I was born and raised in Chicago of 56 years old Michael is a freak of nature once in a generation talent he was literally the best at every facet of the game I was able to see him live against the trail blazers in the finals and it's true he's like a video game with cheat codes to see him live is phenomenal I told me to sound biased but in my eyes he's the greatest ever for real
Lol… u wanna know why u not seeing MJ’s shooting numbers lol… cause it’s 50% 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Let him get there, because the way Michael Jordan played, he could easily hit a shot like that all day. He hit shots with his eyes closed, in real games. And he hit shots blind folded gambling with his teammates for money.
And make sure young man u put in ur context that LeBron has went from Cleveland to Miami to join Wade and Bosh to win his first chip Jordan never left his team that drafted him he stuck it out he didn't go join magic or bird or any great player at that time why he wanted to beat those guys he wanted wat they had wanted to join that elite brotherhood of champions and then do something that none of them did three chips in a row first three peat which hadn't been done since Bill Russell Celtics in 1960s when at that time was on nine teams in the league he retired in 93 cuz his father got murdered came back and won three mo chips and errybody says if he never retired safe to say he would have went to eight straight finals and would have been eight for eight now that content for u and nobody's done it since Jordan Kobe came close but close is not doing it Jordan did it 2 3peats in the same decade now that's a mic drop
Lebrons best coach was Erik Spolstra in Miami, not Tyronn Lue
Great reaction, you made some good points, but about the Jackson's point, you're forgetting something that many other forget. Today Jackson is regarded as one of the best coach of all time with 11 rings, but in 1990 he was a former player who have accomplished nothing in the NBA and actually many in the past said that Jackson was lucky to win this many rings as he coached 4 of the best players ever MJ, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe and really had he coached the Bulls in late 70s or if he was coaching the LA Clippers in the 80s/90s a doubt we would have heard about him. So to your point, Jackson was a great coach, but they won cause the team was very well balanced and actually I believe what Krause said about the fact that organisations win championships is totally true! As a matter of fact he was so great as a GM that he knew that the only way to win was to get a bunch of good role players around MJ instead another superstar, than Pippen became a superstar, thanks to MJ but is not that they got a star to pair with MJ. On the other hand LeBron you are right he did a lot more than the player, but in my opinion if he decided to do more the player and less the GM he would be a better shooter and made a more interesting comparison with MJ!
Who was Phil Jackson before he coached Jordan? Yes, the triangle was perfect for that Bulls team, but Jordan was still Jordan when he came into the league. Did Jordan make Pippen better?... you bet. Pippen developed that edge, because he wasn't that great when he first entered the league. MJ was so serious about the game, winning and even in practise. Kukoc thanked Jordan because he kicked their butts in practises. He said their practises were often harder than the games.
To me, and to so many who witnessed it firsthand, MJ was the factor that put that team past everyone... having MJ's leadership made them feel that they could not lose. Because they fought some close battles in the 90s, but the Goat always found a way to win and was the x-factor.
a lot of close ones for sure
Absolutely... you have to be part of the Slam Dunk Contest and playing in the NCAA
Ask Alyha, age is nothing but a number. When you decide to make the leap into the league, you are now a professional basketball player. Nobody no matter the age has an excuse, including Michael Jordan, who had actual crackhead on his team in his first year, and he still got them to the playoffs every year even with a broken foot. His entire time as a Chicago Bull's. So you see. It doesn't matter, either you make it or you don't.
I'll give you credit. Unlike a lot of people who watch this video you seemed to understand that numbers require context and cumulative stats alone don't tell the whole story. So many people who react to this video just want to say "but what does the cumulative say? Who has more?" completely ignoring how scheme and position affect certain stats.
I don’t know if you’ll answer this, but who did you think was the GOAT before this video?
Honestly MJ
LeBron Dominated offensively?
MJ: hold my beer and I joke to you? 10x scoring titles
Ty Lue is a better coach than Eric Spolestra now? Stop it
You are very fair, insightful and honest. I like your reactions. I would watch more of your reactions videos. Good job.
Appreciate that
I've watched several of these and you are the first to bring up something I had to think about. Mainly the coach...I believe Phil did help get more out of Jordan but I think that could be nullified by the amount of physicality that was in the game back then. As biased as he sounded I'm surprised he only referenced that in the longevity section and not in statistics and eye test. That was a good reaction..keep up the good job.
Thanks for reactimg to this video. I suspect that you are someone who leans towards LeBron as your favorite - and it upset you a bit to see undeniable facts that favor Jordan. But, to your credit, you were pretty fair in your reactions and commentary.
Honestly I’m a Kobe fan I don’t necessarily favor Lebron or Jordan even tho I think Jordan is better
It's not unfair though. LBJ clearly got the tick mark for longevity. So per game comparisons is the only thing we can check when we are comparing primes.
Notice the only reason that Box Plus Minus was redone was because that would've favored LeBron if it came out that way because MJ was already leading in that category.
He only redid them because of what Westbrook did hoping that it was flawed enough to favor James but as the FACTS have it ...it favored Jordan more by default.
Aside from shooting around .332 when he was a bull, thats almost the avg 3pt % back then, and because how it was played, I did the numbers on another video wherein MJs 3pt percentage in 6 seasons when he shot more than 1 3pA. .352 on 2.9 attempt, .500 on 1.9 attempt, .376 on 3.0 attempt, .427 on 3.2 attempt, .374 on 3.6 attempt. That averages to 0.4058 on 2.92 attempts and an era where advanced analytics where not available.
Let's not forget all of the all-stars LeBron played with. Jordan had 1 all-star.
Said quote about how Jerry Reinsdorf deals with coaches "There is a perception problem and when you come from the outside like Arturas did and Marc Eversley have? You know what that perception problem is. The way they’ve treated them(coaches)commodities for three or four decades. The way they fire guys on Christmas Eve.
So there’s a perception problem that I think these guys want to change coming in now to this. That the old regime didn’t care about nor did they maybe even see fully"
MJ was the leader of the team and his mentality is to win at all cost. Lebron doesn’t have than
Enough with the Phil Jackson shit. Jordan lost with Jackson too. Damn. Also, how does LeBron make it neck and neck with one more ring when he lost 6 finals. Context.
Also Jackson has always coached the players that are talked about as the best ever. Two seasons before Jackson came to the Bulls Jordan won the scoring title, averaged 35, Won Defensive player of the year, Won the MVP. So it's not like Jackson just happened to come to the Bulls. I mean he's had Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal etc. Did he make them play that much better? I don't know I'm not a basketball fan I only watched when MJ played. And I can tell you he was torching the league from the jump. Out of college the Olympic team he was on beat the NBA All stars team. The only think that limited Jordan were people stopped talking trash. His 3rd year in he averages 37.1 and people talked trash about how he didn't play defense. So the following year he averages 35 and wins defensive player of the year. Any time anybody said stuff he would prove them wrong in a dramatic fashion. Some news reporter mentions how he can't hit 3 points before the finals...so the first game he breaks a record and hits 6 in the first half this is what he did. This is why although I'm not a basketball fan I am a totally huge Jordan fan.
In statistics, if your analytical tool produces anomalies, it is acceptable/ necessary to take a look at its accuracy of measurement. So it's not simply fair to opine that the originator was cooking the books in changing the Box Plus Minus tool. Very good analysis though!
Though Phil was an major part in the success of the Bulls, it was Tex Winters who came up with most of their strategies. Phil was great a reading the game and managing the players. I also see that someone noted that Erik was LBJ's best coach which correct. And let's not forget Eric, when he got the job was under the thumb of Coaching GREAT, Pat Riley.
You kept speaking of context, well every single thing needs context and even then it still wouldn't matter. The results would be the same. Jordan's stats are from a 13 year play. So just imagine where really, 3 to 4 more years would have put him. Out for the 60+ games in his sophomore year, retired for almost 2 years and then a second time for 2 years. Would have been cool to see, but it didn't happen. So a game to game comparison speaks more about how they impacted the game.
I mean, Magic Johnson is the overwhelming choice as greatest PG of all time and is on most people's Top 5 GOAT list...but guess what John Stockton has more assists than he has and why...he played longer. Hell, Isiah Thomas is even picked more so than Stockton in the greatest PG category.
So in the end, context does matter. Just like everyone nowadays ACT like the Bulls were stacked and like Pippen came to the league on an all star level. MJ came in NBA ready and literally dominated individually. It took years to groom Pip AND Horace Grant.
I think the number one in point per game for small foward is either Elgin Baylor or KD. (Not 100% sure but I know that Elgin has better average points than LBJ for at least the regular season.)
It’s KD
That's not true, Phil Jackson ashe was just starting, told Michael Jordan that a great player can make other players better and greater. And Michael Jordan said I will train them in practice. Now you know the truth. Michael Jordan was way more than what they told you, are made others believe he was limited, when in fact he also was top ten on defense as well as number 1 on offense.
Did you forget about Pat Riley? (One of the greatest coaches of all time) When he was in Miami, Pat was there every day. Giving insite and coaching.
There are a few other things I could bring up. But I don’t want this comment being to long.
Good traction video. Probably the best one I’ve seen to the reaction.
He is going to show Michael Jordan's shooting percentages, it's just not fair for LeBron James to be compared to Michael Jordan in this category.
Context don't changes nothing for winning, cause he mutually just ascribing to them their accolades that they receive individually for winning, and if you add context to winning, then Phil didn't coach Jordan on his Olympics winning, and also most of Jordan victories' is Jordan asking for the ball in fourth quarters from early' and dribble a bit and made his own space and then shoot or took it to the hoop and beat last buzzers of finals, this personal strong confident in one's own ability, LeBron don't got this
Wrong, LeBron James chooses to be a coach, and GM, on the team, and the trade with his agency clutch sports. Which is colluding.
And that's an excuse Phil Jackson was nobody anybody knew he was a CBA coach never coached in the NBA he was brought in as Doug Collins assistant in 87-88 and LeBron had Eric spoletra in Miami and because Pat Riley wouldn't allow LeBron to try and gut the franchise he left went back to Cleveland remember it is the responsibility of the front office to run the team not the player the player not cutting his own check is he it's the owner perfect example when he left Cleveland for the second time they gutted the team for lebron giving away draft picks and it took Cleveland four yrs to get back to a competitive team look at them now fourth seed in the east, now look at the Lakers LeBron put that team together forcing an historic franchise to gut there team after winning a bubble chip giving away draft picks for the like of Russell westbrick Carmelo Anthony and so on and wat happened booted out playoffs first round last yr and very possibly not making playoffs this yr so wat does that mean it means as a player shut up and play if the front office makes moves they make moves but a player should not dictate whose coaching the team or whose playing on and for the team sure the front may come to u and say hey we about to make this move but all in all it's the owners and GM not the players watch and see wat happens at the next collective bargaining agreement all the advanced money is going to be cut a lot players forcing there way out becuz they don't like the situation or players joining up making super teams and all this time managing players not playing cuz they tired the league is soft the league has become less competitive because of that just look at the NBA's rating from the time Jordan played up to now it's terrible.
Phil won 3 straight with MJ, MJ "retired", Phil won 0 titles with same team minus MJ for 2 years, MJ returns, Phil won 3 straight. Phil then goes to LA to win titles with Kobe and Shaq. Has he ever coached a team to a title without MJ or Kobe and Shaq? (actual question, I'm not sure) Don't get me wrong, I think Phil was a good coach, but players win championships first and foremost.
Hey young buck, before Phil (who definitely deserves some credit) you can't name for me a single player whoever became very good much less great which means Jordan was a 1 man show for the first 5 or 6 years of his career and having to battle Bird's Celtics, Dr J's Sixers and Magic Johnson's Lakers by himself!! LeFlop James didn't have a ton of help during his first go with Cleveland but man to man and player to player James teammates were way better than Jordan's help!!! Pippin deserves more credit in my opinion than Phil Jackson does because Pippin ended the 1 man show that Jordan was!! You said "James has to be the Coach, GM, leader and best player" but you're a little off in your assessment of that because James threw a fit by leaving Cleveland because they wouldn't allow him to be those things so he left!!! He didn't have to be, but he definitely chose to be in those roles!! LeFlop James at the time of the making of this video he was 2nd to Karl Malone in points
He doesn’t have to play point guard. Which is exactly what Kyrie said. “I just want to play point guard “😮
Whats the issue changing the formula? Why would we assume the formula was correct the first time it was designed?
James quit on his teammates, coaches and fans......many times
He quit playing defense......many times.
Jordan never quit.
Did you get that?
Jordan never quit.
Quitters will never be GOATs.
Checkmate James fans......you lose.
Also there is plenty of footage showing Jordan coaching his team both on and off the court.
Don't pretend that Bron did it and MJ didn't.
The NBA season is and has been 82 games...Lebron only played a full season once. 81games twice.
You want to include Phil Jackson. People forget that MJ was racking up stats when Phil wasn't there. If he Phil didn't come, he probably has more stats than what he has right now. He probably won't have that many rings, but he will have more stats.
And to be fair, you were saying that the person who made thi video didn't define those statistics he mentioned, why would he? He was making a video comparison, not educational video. We can all write down those stats that was mentioned and search it ourselves. If he define all of those, the video will be way too long.
Loads of goat's in diff era's, rules, they all genius level.
Im a larry bird fan and i know MJ is the Billy goat even bird magic kareem worthy hakeem and shaq agree. Larry bird said he was god on a basketball court and bird played with some legends just like he was. Both magic and bird recognised early on that MJ was going to eventually take over from them as they reached the end of their prime.
Action speaks louder than words, so it's no favoritism. Michael Air Jordan aka the King of Basketball, you can't except the truth? Kobe Bryant aka the Prince of Basketball is better than Labron and it's not mentioned. Labron is next to Charles Barkley for being a great player.
I also think its fair to talk about per game stats because that is how effective you were in any given game. LBJ came fresh out of high school because he was "NBA Ready" if that is true we can't penalize MJ for going to College because he wasn't "NBA Ready". That means that the scouts and GMs of the NBA believed LBJ at 18 was as good as MJ at 21! I would like to point out in MJ senior year of high school he averaged a thriple double but was not viewed as an NBA prospect. LBJ chose not to go to College MJ played in College for 3 years! You can't have it both ways. Either LBJ is so good he didn't need college or he was at a disadvantage because he didn't attend college. Same with MJ either he needed College to get better or he waisted time in College when he could've been building his NBA resume. If you only compare longevity stats then players that played longer at a lower level look better. Prime example John Stockton longevity stats say he is the greatest point gaurd of all time. He leads NBA history in assists and steals yet nobody is advocating for him being better that Magic or Curry! Because we know he played 20 years where as Magic and Curry have had less time on the basketball court, due to the retirement from HIV and Curry's many injuries. Also consider MJ was injured for a year and retired 2 times in his prime. It means MJ missed out on 4 years of excellence that would have more likely increased his per game stats then diminish them. Where as if you do the opposite and take out 4 years of LBJ career he would most likely lose some of his per game stats depending on which years you take out. You eliminate his higher scoring years and hell lose some per game points and a scoring title. Take out his lower scoring years and you run the risk of dropping his assists and rebounding numbers. MJ per game stats include his 2 Wizard years which drag down his per game stats and LBJ has never had a season as bad as MJs 2 seasons with the Wizards and MJ still boasts a superior per game average. Now imagine adding 4 more years of prime MJ to his numbers. Looking at it that way to be honest this is the fairest way to accurately compare them. MJs 2 retirements followed MVP championship seasons. And considering he was an All Star his first year in Washington averaging over 20 points 6assists and 5 rebounds. Its safe to assume a younger and healthier MJ could have easily maintained his MVP level play after his first and second 3peat. That being said I believe LBJ could've greatly benefited from college it's where he would have learned to respect the coaching and GM. LBJ didn't have to take on the roles he chose to. He actively tried to get his coaches and members of the front office fired everywhere he went. Miami had an excellent coaching staff, fantastic front office and still LBJ tried to get Erik fired this is a coach with 2 championships a coach of the year in 2017 and his team when healthy has been in the playoffs and recently in title contention. Not listening to the Coaches and GMs doesn't mean they're not good. Look at LA he had them trade away every young player they had and the results are well underwhelming. My point is LBJ insisted on being the coach and the GM he forced them into decisions they didn't agree with and his teams suffered for it. High caliber role players struggled and in the case of Kevin Love All Star talent faded. LBJ insisted on having these All Star players then pushed them outside of thier roles so he could succeed individually. Wade and Bosh adjusted enough to win 2 rings because they were mutidimensional players but players like Kyrie and Love suffered because they aren't. Kyrie needs the ball in his hands to be effective and Love need to be in the paint to grab offensive rebounds. With LBJ being so ball dominant and a driver they were forced to be spot up shooters on the wing which limited their effectiveness. I believe if LBJ was just a player he would have easily been better than MJ, but that is a position he willingly forfeited which is why mentality is so crucial to success. LBJ mentaliy is why he lost more than he won not the staff and not the team.
You make some good points you are probably right about if Lebron went to college he’d respect coaches more. I don’t think that there is anything Lebron could’ve done to be better than MJ I think him going straight to the league definitely helps his longevity case especially because he’s the quickest player to get to 5k points without that he’d be a fair amount further down on the scoring and assist list especially because he never averaged under 20 ppg I think the Stockton argument is fair but if Stockton had 2 or 3 rings that might be a different case because Lebron and MJ both have rings Curry and Magic both have rings Stockton doesn’t never really thought about the college thing but now that you say that Kobe did want Phil out of LA because he wasn’t his preference at the time so there maybe something to that. (Great comment)
@@mikefromnyc4111 Yeah but you also have to remeber why Stockton doesn't have any rings! He played in a tough conference and he wasn't the focal point of his team like Curry or Magic! The system was designed for Magic and Curry to succeed where as John team was designed for Malone to suceed! Plus they ran into the unstoppable force that was the 90's Bulls! And never did Stockton have as much talent around him as any of the players you named! The Jazz team was in no way bad but they were also less talented then every championship team for the players above! Also LBJ wasn't just young when he came into the NBA he was handed full control over a dead franchise! Because of players like Kobe who proved you can be great out of high school, (LA made him work for it) LBJ was allowed the freedom to run as a rookie out of High School! Kobe played 20 years and could have way more stats if he didn't spend the first few years tryna get off the bench and the last few years riddled with injuries. But I still believe with all the physical gifts and openness of todays game LBJ could've been better than MJ if he had more of an MJ or Kobe mentality! Which is also something he could've developed in college! The will to push forward, the ups and downs of March Madness, the importance of every single game because it's one and done, the criticism to work on his jumpshooting and freethrows! He needed structure instead he got the weight of MJ and free reign to let everything go to his head! If LBJ had a jumpshot that was a solid 40-45% and a FT that was 80%, with some never quit mentality, the man would have more rings, scoring titles, and less criticism from true fans of the game! And we really would have to ask who is better LBJ or MJ! I wont say his game would look as pretty as MJ I mean MJ is like poetry in motion but he would be as effect and at the end of the day that is what determines greatness in the eyes of the Fans that love the game!
@@mikefromnyc4111LeBron also averages around 56 games a year, he was fresher in the games he did play. Surely that affects per game stats too.
You don't know Michael Jordan gets in war mode and forgot about Paxton, and Phil reminded him of that. Has nothing to do with basketball IQ.
LeBron doesn't need to coach and manage; he chooses to. And Jordan was continually telling his team mates what to do. This is a Jordan LeBron playing Basketball ball comparison not a managing comparison. The first 2 have 0 need of context it was accomplishments what you have done it speaks for itself. And longevity again is how long you did it for. Maybe the issue is your understanding of word meanings. As for statistics FG% is an exact measure of your shooting. True shooting is biased. To be exact you will need to add dunks, putbacks, layups, 3 feet, 8 feet, 15 feet and 3pt%. As he goes into.
Did u listen to Kobe bean Bryant talk about Jordan or anybody in the league they all said Jordan made the game look easy which is hard to do go back to 1984 when Jordan came in to the league watch the physicality of the game from 84 to the 90s maybe that will give u a better perspective on the game itself then form ur opinion and also what's mo impressive in a 13yr career with the bulls six chips in eight yrs compared to four chips in nineteen yrs in a league that's softer then yogurt and cotton
Lotta good takes lil bro. You get a like. But don't forget LBJ has major influence on the coaches he plays for & players he plays with. LBJ looks at himself as a player/GM. But yeah he didn't have Jerry Krause as a GM & Phil as a coach. And that does matter. And it's unfortunate that he couldn't get players to join him in Cleveland because the organization was garbage outside if LBJ. Other players consider these things when they choose who to play for
Lol @ thinking LeBron can be coached. He's known to be uncoachable, and 5 coaches have been fired under him. LeBron even tried to get erik spoelstra replaced as written in Pat Rileys book. It's not a matter of who LeBron had as a coach, cause it wouldn't make a difference. LeBron only plays under the LeBron system. He cannot play under any other system. He needs to be the ball dominant player, and he turns everyone else around him into basically a roleplayer. But what is this nonsense about him getting 1 more ring and he'll be up there with Jordan? Since when is being 5/11 as good as 6/6? So we just going to ignore the inexcusable losses? Like when he built a superteam stacked with 3 allstars and got whooped by a Mavs that only had 1 allstar while LeBron himself got outplayed by a bench player Jason Terry? Whereas Jordan only had 1 single allstar teammate his entire career and had the league on lock pretty much.
Phil Jackson wasn't a good coach at that time. Michael Jordan still lead his teams to victory, and when he left they didn't win within him. Even with Scottie Pippen on the team. And Scottie Pippen set out pouting for not getting the last shot he missed 7 times prior to not getting the last shot. Tony made that shot to take it to game 7 and they lost.
Stop cutting him off, because it doesn't favor who you want it to be. This man took his time to figure all this out. And if you think he's wrong. What you gonna think when you evaluate someone like Bruce Blitz.com. Because he does a deep study on of the players, past to present day. And he definitely knows who is the greatest basketball player of all times is, and he is gonna say Michael Jordan without question, and Kareem second greatest of all times and Magic Johnson, and Larry Bird. You are not gonna like that he don't rank stats, rather than real game to game dominance.
LeBron was the coach and GM is because he WANTED to be
You made great points
Watching your video, I want to address the Phil Jackson comment. A lot of people make this argument. What had Phil Jackson done before Jordan? Phil is considered such a great coach in part because what he was able to accomplish with Jordan. Didn't do anything prior.
Also, the argument can be made that Lebron had a great coach (2 actually) in Eric S. and Pat Riley in Miami and was still only able to win two titles and decided to leave because he wasn't able to get his way in Miami.
Which leads into my last point, LeBron actually struggles in an environment where he isn't the defacto head coach. Lebron can only play on a team where he is the system. So no matter the coach, he has to play a specific style so the coach argument is pointless in my opinion
As someone who works in data analytics, if you see something that doesn’t make sense, or in the case of the Westbrook scenario … unless you think Westbrook should be in the GOAT discussion… if you find something that points out an obvious error in your formulas, you go back to test and verify.
Thus, I could be operating an analytics report that shows our companies year over year growth and influence in our market share is 100%, but when applying common sense, we haven’t added any new clients, nor has our profit margin grown much and our competitors have pulled ahead… and even our EBITA is only a 10% increase…. Then those are all red flags there is an error with the formulas.
Thus, while you would cry foul over the idea someone found an error that required correction and thus the ultimate results changed and favored someone else… analysts cry foul when an obvious flaw in an analysis is presented and is not corrected…
Btw, it took the time extreme scenario of Westbrook to identify the flaw. These things are not always easy to identify when most of the results seem to make sense. The question is, after the fix, do they make more sense? Well, when you compile all of the other statistics which we are being given, YES.
It's not fair to try to suggest that MJ was only good because of Phil Jackson. I'm probably 3 times your age, so I don't expect you to have all the experiences, & memories that I do on the topic, but... Do you know anything about the *Team USA* vs *Team NBA* games that Jordan played years ago before he was in the NBA? *Olympics Team* vs *The NBA* . How about acknowledging the embarrassing 8-0 blowout that *Team NBA* suffered for the first time on National TV. Phil Jackson had no part of it. Also... Jordan's scoring average was very much higher before Phil Jackson came in. Jordan was playing SF, & Center (Like LeBron), & his scoring Average was off the charts at that time... his average was way too high, but when Phil came in, he saw that MJ was very energetic, & was covering other positions that were slacking off a little, so he moved MJ to Shooting Guard to better utilize his abilities, being the best player on the team, & MJ's scoring average dropped through the floor (To just " *Goat* " Status level points per game)... in comparison to his previous Average, which was much much higher. At the time, everyone was calling the Center positions, " *The Lazy Man* " positions, because you didn't have to burn much energy to get layups, put-backs, & dunks in. This increases your stats unfairly when compared to other more energetic, & worthy players who has to work for every point they get. This is why the stats formula had to be reworked. People with controlling interest of the team, wanted Jordan back at the old position, & Phil said NO. After they won their 6th Championship, those bullying owner level interests demanded that they put Jordan back to the old position so he can rack up points faster, because the games were too close for comfort, & again Phil said NO. This time, the owner level interests told him to either do it, or kick rocks. Jordan said that if Phil goes, He's out, & so did Pippin, & Rodman, & quite a few others. The rest, is history.
Lebron isn't a coach or the brains. Stop that. What about all the super teams he had to run to just to win chips? He's whipping Lebron with only 13 years.
super teams were first created because of Lebron in Boston imagine in Hakeem went to Utah to beat MJ? different story
@@mikefromnyc4111 Let's see which super team Lebron wants to run to next since he isn't winning in LA.
LeBron had a Phil Jackson coach… he kinda owns Miami Heat… plus LeBron had more help with everything especially when he has someone to pass the ball to help in his assisting status, Kyrie, Love, Wade, Chris, Allen, AD, Westbrook, Camelo, Howard…
You don't want to add Jordan's college years... it would make it even more lopsided. Jordan was NCAA player of the year, won a NCAA championship, won an Olympic Gold Medal, and whooped the ass of an All-NBA Team consisting of prime Magic, Bird, and Thomas... all before joining the NBA.
Another thing, you act like Phil Jackson came in with a reputation. Phil Jackson's reputation grew with Michael Jordan. He didn't become the winningest coach without Jordan... and then Kobe. Lebron has nobody to blame but himself for his lack of coach. He went into situations with full control of being able to say yes or no to whomever his teammates were... as well as the coach.
Jordan wasnt just a player. You said it earlier. JR wasnt busting his ass for Lebron. Jordan didnt let people slack off. He was just as much a leader as Phil.
Yes. Michael played in a much tougher league that played defense. There was also traveling called. Lebron couldn’t survive In Jordan’s time with just those two categories. Then there is the demand for trades. That didn’t really occur then.
It’s always amusing listening to the Lebrun fan excuses especially when it comes to the fact Jordan had Phil Jackson lol look Lebrun is a player that just didn’t respect his coaches. Jordan on the other hand bought into Phil’s Philosophy, just as Kobe did Lebron never bought into his coaches for most of his career!
You say you wanted more context, yet if he would of added a lot more context, it would of made Lebron look even worse. He said Michael shot nearly 50% in the clutch, compared to Lebron's 20%, did you really need him to throw in all the clutch shots MJ made, watch the highlight video's. Lebron is lazy on defense, there is no comparison to MJ on defense. You use stats to complain about Michael, but on the first screen you never once said, well Lebron is so close, because he has played more years, so that gave him more chances. You watched this whole video complaining about everything that made MJ look good, and complaining about everything that made Lebron look bad. Thank you for reviewing this video, but when you look at everything, you have to admit MJ is the GOAT. You also mentioned how great Phil made the team with his coaching, but you skipped over the fact, that the first year MJ was playing baseball, the Bulls did not make it to the finals, if Phil was that great, what happened that year, Just saying, you have to be fair and honest, what got the Bulls 2 sets of 3peats, MICHAEL JORDAN!!!! nuff said
I really like the point you mention about Phil Jackson and coaching! Phil Jackson was the the missing piece of the puzzle piece with Jordan and the Bulls. The coaching of Phil Jackson and the Bulls might be the equivalent of Bill Russell's Celtics with Red Auerbach vs Wilt Chamberlains mighty career. Wilt never had that level of consistent coaching throughout his career like Bill Russell had with Red Auerbach. Its all speculative when comparing eras.
That being said I think this video tried to strip everything away and try to focus on Michael Jordan and Lebron James strictly individual as much as possible.
Red Auerbach traded tickets to the ice Capades for the right to draft Bill Russell because black players weren't welcome on the other team.
Phil Jackson inherited the Goat by stabbing the previous coach in the back and politically manipulating the back office at the Bulls.
Yes, it's hard to compare eras.
The video you played says that Phil asked MJ "whose open" and Jordan said "Paxton" so I don't think that was Phil telling Jordan to pass to Paxton he asked Jordan whose open.
The most important statistics are GAME statistics (for players with pretty long activity) and not overall statistics.
Who is better on assists: Magic or Stockton? Magic.
Who is better at scoring? MJ or Kareem? MJ
There is also the era context - when defense was strong (The 90s and early 2000s) and when was not (the 60s, the beginning of the 80s, today). Today, like in the 60s, it is a statistical inflation. The 3PTS era offers more open space to shoot and go to the rim.
If you compare 22 Lebron with 22 Jordan etc until 35 ... MJ has an advantage in most years.
Westbrook has a lot of turnovers (one of the all-time bests :) ).
For example. Until this year, my Bulls couldn't get any free agents because they had a rep for treating coaches like shit. I'll add a quote from the NBA coaches association prez Rick Carlisle
Jordan played 15 years I don't know why nobody counts his Washington days.