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Part TWO. 1225 stalls on Fox Hill.......WHY? Oct. 21, 1990
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- čas přidán 11. 02. 2010
- Ok 1225 fans, back on Oct. 21, 1990, the 1225 was returning east from Grand Rapids with 20 or so freight cars and could not make it up Fox Hill. I was told by one of the crew why. Do you know? Hopefully your more polite than that A-hole in blue with the coffee cup. He could not stand seeing that CP pass his beloved steam engine. He also went along and picked up the pennys off the rail from the little kids in front of the 1225! Anyone know who this is? I will remember that forever.....
Folks, listen to the radio talk at 2:30 - ".... were gonna stop here, got a little problem. Were having steam trouble again. Let that eastbounder pass us right here....".
For whatever reason or another 1225 wasn't making good steam this day. This is NOT a stall. 1225 is easily capable of walking 80 loaded cars up this hill.
You notice she easily walked out of this situation to continue on. With safety valve lifted, thankfully she made it back to full steam. You can tell she isn't feeling well. Listen to her breathing.
PM Railfan she seems to have steam problems often, i've seen here foaming cause of bad water many times.
Does that still happen now?
Maybe the driver didn't have her in full foward gear. Or bad batch of coal.
@@geoffreyblack5982 thats not the problem is your having trrouble making steam that would be the problem havs not a thing to do with being in full forward
@@JCBro-yg8vd I know it is a very late reply. But to answer your question, not really. 1225 is now equipped with water treatment chemicals, and softener bucket’s on top of her tender. This stall was because of the way the bacteria and nasty things in the water made the water harder to boil, and this caused steam pressure to stop building as rapid as it should be.
she didn't stall the hill, she stopped at a siding for the CP freight to pass, plus they stopped at the siding because at that time, 1225 wasn't steaming perfectly at the time
The decision to let the other train go around us in the siding was made after the DS had us lined down the main. Also, we were having trouble keeping up steam because there were only about 1/3 of the superheater units installed at that time.
At 1:40 and It sounds like 1225 is saying "I think I can" doesn't it?
That is why steam engines are so loved. A millionaire that owns a steam locomotive and drives it made this statement; I have flown jets, driven race cars and just about everything that moves. There is nothing in this world that compares to driving one of these locomotives at 60mph (100kph), down the tracks.
Kind of sums up what steam engines are all about.
They always exhaust the steam when they start up. At startup, there is too much moisture that condenses in the cylinders and that is bad for lubrication and corrosion. Therefore until the pistons in the cylinders get moving quick enough they vent it. When steam engines were first designed, engineers found that exhausting the steam into the stack helped pull or assist the drafting of the burning coal for a hotter fire. Also a convenient way to vent the spent steam also.
Love this footage of 1225 from 1990 - I Liked & Subscribed 👍😎
I like to see trains, moreover classic trains like this. The horn is reminiscent of
childhood. Hopefully your channel has more success.
I am a locomotive engineer on a class1 road and have steam experience. There was definately no stall and no steam failure. When an engine stops and immediately pops off the fireman has a good head of steam and in this event had a white hot fire cause he had a hard time keeping the pops from lifting. This was a scheduled stop by the dispatcher cause the on train higher in priority than a intermodel train is a passenger and it was obvious the 1225's train was equal to a local freight was very low.
I don't think she was struggling. 20 freight cars is no where near the tonnage limit 1225 can haul, whatever that limit is, even with a bad coal load. I believe they stopped for the other train to pass.
You are right !!20 cars is nothing for her.I wonder what the problem was?Because she seemed to walk away with those cars at the end.
It takes a good fireman too, not just an engineer. A good fireman knows the route, and knows the engineer's style. The engineer depends on the fireman to have the max pressure but not too much or else the safety blows it off.
I use ta play on that engine when it sat at M.S.U. when I was a kid !. "Glad it's going again".
Why did this photographer know to stop in this location, unless it was a planned stop?
Good point!!
This machine is a LIMA, the Rolls Royce of the rail tracks, and Limas don't stall. Limas stop to let other trains to pass.
This was an issue of keeping pressure. She was making horrible steam that day for what ever reason.
The whistle 1225 has on here sounds AWESOME and beautiful at the same time.
24 years of railroad experience tells me this is/was NOT a stall. They stopping on instructions of the dispatcher to let a higher priority container train pass. I don't know, but this line probably goes to single track at some point and the railroad wanted to get the CP train around the steam train. Nothing unusual here. Just a meet between trains. Can't answer about the 1225 guys other than in my experience I've found them all to be very nice and accommodating.
Poor 1225, seems like she wasn't feeling well that day.
One should note that at about 3:04 in this video clearly shows one of the saftey valves lifting which indicates that the boiler pressure has exceeded the standard operating pressure of 245 psi
clearly indicating that this engine did not stall (usually due to slipping drivers or low steam but was indeed at a designated meet point with the CP freight.
That's not a stall. She's blowing off so no shortage of steam. Then she moved off easily. It looks like she was held for the other train to take priority, that's all.
1225 and a boatload of Chessie cars + Caboose! Nice, nice shot here.
During NRHS the next summer with 765, SRI found a crack letting water inside of the firebox and therefore making it harder to produce steam. I wonder if this has anything to do with her not making this hill. She could easily have done this.
No crapper in that cab. I had the privilage of running 1225 and man is she something. Shes torn apart right now getting inspected.
I wanna know what position the Johnston bar was in. steam loco won't stall like diesel. They will either run out of steam or spin if there's too much weight.
Reverser in the forward position. I would add probably no cut off at this point. He was losing steam and needed all he had left to make the top of the hill. So youd want no cut off on the reverser which is full forward.
Its using a Franklin Precision Reverse not a Johnson Bar.
Seeing the 1225, that was a controlled stop to let the CP stack train pass. I do agree the blue cap guy was an A-hole. But I was at the SRI two weeks ago and they gave me a tour of the 1225 and let me climb inside the cab and walk around in the boiler. In my oppinion they very nice people who volunteer thier time to keep the 1225 running.
Some real muscle going past at the 4:20 mark 👌💪🇺🇸
Very well done, smooth, perfectly-framed video!
Did not "stall".
Why did they stop? To allow the more valuable freight to continue? So people documenting the steam train would not be hit by the freightrain?
What? No passenger cars and then freight cars?
Why were they moving freight by steam in 1990?
well not being there doesn't help, but a good possibility is that the Fireman wasn't shoveling enough coal into the Firebox and therefore the fire wasn't hot enough to produce enough steam....but again I actually don't know if 1225 is manual or if they have a coal feeder on it
besides that I cant see anything visible on why it stalled like slipping or someone working on the Sandbox, etc.......so that would my best guess!
I know on a steam tractor if you let the boiler go to low or rather out of the sight glass there is a possibility for it to blow a mile high(has been recorded) on record.
What stall? You mean stopping to allow a higher priority train to pass.
@glenely Yes, the 1225 was a late model Berkshire model, capable of over 4,500hp. She could have easily pulled that hill without issue. There is no doubt she was set aside by a dispatcher.
From the sound of things there was no stall. Just stopped to let other train pass.
Not the engine exhaust Asian person, the air compressor exhaust, duh, that can be heard while the locomotive is not in motion, quietly in the midst of raging blower white noise trying to force draft the fire. They did not stall, though were not keeping a full head. There wasn't enough weight in that train to stall any Berk, even with only 13 supers and rest plugged They were waiting for a freight to pass. Take my word. I rebuilt those compressors and retrained those firemen many years later.
I am a volunteer at SRI and for a few people I know there it is true. But most of them are great! As long as you dont get involved in the politics there (really anywhere nowdays) they are nice friendly people. There is just a few. 1225 is my favorite steam locomotive but because of her rebuild (which I have helped with) I have never seen her operating, would have at Trainfest 2009 but a flue failed. And I asked around, this was a schedualed stop, not a stall.
Oh, one more thing, when i was a kid, i too put pennys on the tracks, and i have seen them stick to the wheel, more than once.
Leaky flue/superheater unit?
shadynebey lots of engineer's use the air and pull to a stop to keep the train stretched. In the case with steam, that way if they need to take some slack to get started, it will be there. The use of the siding or the main for the meet is up to the dispatcher. This was probably the easier move. Again, just guessing from what I see in the video. I wasn't there.
My 20 plis years of running locomotives,including steam, believes the same as my brother rail. On STEAm,you stop with the throttle open and walk the train down to a stop with the slack stretched.. This was NOT a stall,just practiced train handling.
The engineer needed a coffee break.Simple.
@NJPurling No, the 1225 is not an oil burner, ive been in the cab of the 1225 at its home shope in owasso mich, and talk with a fireman, and engenier about two years ago, and to my nolage they have not converted it..
well her sister 765 npk is the same way, usually flares in the firebox to start her up, but she only takes 8 hours to get a full head of steam, but, 3 days to cool off since it is soo hot and soo much metal and iron, I am told by Mr. Winniker the head of maintaining 765 at her home in new haven, that was last sunday 8/18/2013 at the open house and yea they topped the water off before letting the fire go out for the time which took about an hour and a half to become pretty much embers.
Actually believe it or not, if the want to, they can fire up the 765 from cold to operating pressure in about an hour. The reason they take so long usually is to allow everything time to heat up and expand slowly, because it is much easier to on the boiler, but also the entire engine.
Historically, didn't steam engines need to stop about every 50-60 miles to re-apply grease to the engine? To my knowledge, steam engines didn't have a rubber boot to hold grease and keep contaminates out. Also, if the engine is having trouble building steam, it may need the firebox cleaned out thoroughly for more effective heat transfer.
as it were, thought running a steamer takes more resorces in fuel of coal and water, plus a larger crew, that was the only problem with them, and you had to rebuild them sooner then electros, but steamers were a mature technology and developed lots of power, now if they could have just got a good practical steam turbine loco or modern design it would generate tones of power, that one that ran on 50 gallons in a closed systom talked about in the movie about turbines would have been great.
Plus, a good show.
If freight has priority then it is logical that 1225 would be put into the passing loop.
I assume that the locomotive is an oil burner. In the day an English engineer would have tried to keep the smoke to a minimum, which denoted good combustion. I dare say an Canadian engineer would have the same amount of pride in doing his job effeciently.
Opening cylinder drains is a common practice. Water does not compress & could cause a burst cylinder if there is enough in front of the piston.
@willibill1 That I can understand, but even with a few years of experience, they still don't
At 2:30 the crew of 1225 calls Trainmaster Foley on the radio and tells him they are having "steam trouble" and that they are going to stop in the middle of Fox (siding?) and to let the E/B CP 502 run by them.
YOU CANT SEE THE NUMBER BORDS AT3:01 WHYWHYWHY?
Nice!
I dont know who that guy is, I have only been a volunteer for a year and have been hanging around SRI since 2009 but I understand where you are comming from. I have though seen pennies fuse to wheels are cause minor divets if not found. So I would have taken the pennies off from in front of 1225 but I would have been nice enough to put them under a freight car wheel for the kids instead. Lots of people have come a gone from SRI though and almost everyone there is very kind and friendly.
1225 works hard upgrade.
That's what I had figured. She didn't spin out, and she wasn't balls to the wall as she stopped. Plus if she really did stall, I'd imagine she'd have a hell of a time trying to get going again anyways.
Maybe it stalled to let the CP Rail Pac-Man's go by.
Traditionally, freight trains always have the higher priority over most excursion/passenger trains.
That guy with the coffee cup (im guessing was the engineer) was just mad he didn't have the skill to squeeze enough power out of that locomotive to pull fox hill.
Actually part 2 was most of part 1 replayed.
Wow! PM #1225 pulling a freight train and meet with a Diesel? That unusual!
Some of you rail fans might not know that the 1225 was used in the making of the movie, Poler Express, yup that locomotive is a movie star.
Slow cycling is due to slow speed, duh. And they were letting the other train pass. And they wouldn't stop due to only the possibility of a stall. There is obviously a control point ahead. That's why they stopped.
why did we stop...... carabo crossing!?
kamphwagon1, Yes, it clears the cylinders of condensation.
Oh yah, no more CP Rail either. Even though I miss the traffic.
I hate it when tourist railroads or historical societies try to bring in a younger generation but when people my age (I'm 18) join, they give us this hazzing and don't trust us with anything, even after they teach you how to do things.
Lol when the CP Engneer rings the bell all the crew on the steam locomotive waves EXCEPT The guy with the coffee cup, and when the guy in the second unit waves, same thing. He must have been REAL pissed XD
Hopefully the resent over hall will prevent from happening again.
A steam powered freight !awesome!!
Yeah, whats up with that
eh why not they are more powerful then many of the diesles on the rails even if not the same in power as one electro I think its neat they pulled freight as that is what a lima berk was ment to do and at speed.
To me it looked like low steam pressure
Someones pissed!LOL
They were running the locomotive to a convention. Rather than run an empty locomotive, which is hard on the steam cylinders, they pulled a revenue train which is awesome and easier on the engine. Steam engines work the best at full capacity.
Just putting this out there, but 140 cars would have been closer to full capacity. They were having superheater issues, presumably they were very clogged with scale and not aiding in efficiency any, so they wound up running out of steam up the hill.
This was a test run in anticipation for going to the NRHS convention in Huntington WV in 1991,She had a lousy load of coal on this run
To add on to the reply prior to mine, this video was filmed in 1990, in preparation for the 1991 Convention. CSX wanted to know the 1225 could make the journey, and thankfully, it was able to, though that’s obvious given the plethora of photographs and videos of the 1225’s and 765’s journey to the Convention.
Looks like the fireman couldn't keep up with the engineer's heavy hand on the cutoff - even with a mechanical stoker. Had to stop to build up boiler pressure. Notice the stack blower going even after they started up. As for the trainman removing the pennies from the rail I'll have to side with him, especially when they're trying to start a train moving and don't want anything under the drivers. His attitude, however is unfortunate for a crewman toward rail fans. Probably just a sourpuss.
Try this, the CP freight was probably higher priority. And who's to say it was important or even revenue freight.
They probably lost too much pressure.
It does look and sound like she's struggling. Perhaps she had a bad batch of coal that was choking the poor girl or her boiler had built up a bit of scale and wasn't steaming at its full capacity.
That or as others have suggested the engineer didn't handle her as well as he should have, and used up steam faster than she was producing it. The Berkshire class engines were supposed to be resistant to this- after all the Lima SuperPower concept behind them was designed to produce a free-steaming boiler that when well maintained and skillfully driven could be run right up to the mechanical limits of her engine and still have steam to spare.
Hopefully the 2004 movie "The Polar Express" brought some new life to 1225. Not only was she the locomotive that inspired the book, but when the movie was being made they sought her out specifically to use her appearance and sound as the basis for the model used in the movie.
ah well then my guess would be totally wrong then, unless the stoker wasn't working properly!
This train is now the real life polar express
any decent steam loco can easy pull 20 freight cars .steam locos are not switch track friendly.the span of the driver wheels dose not match up good to the curve of a switch
I was not their myself, but i think anyone should be able to tell that it was a controled stop, and as for the pennies on the track, i would pick them off too, the guy was probley responsible for the train, mabey he didnt half to be such a jirk about it, but yes it could couse wheel or tire damage.
mygirl22ward, See my post below. Putting pennies on the rail is a dangerous practice that is discouraged by the railroad safety departments. The crewman who was picking up the pennies was doing the public a FAVOR! Pennies can fly out from under trains and injure people or put eyes out!!!! There was nothing malicious about the man removing them: he was just doing his job; he is required to remove any know obstructions to train movements. :)
the engineer had to take a dump on the side of the tracks coz the shitter in the cabin was blocked? :P too much nutrient rich food :) thats my guess... and im no expert LMAO
I think I can
I think I can
I think I can
I think I can
I think I can
but then I couldn't..
But then he tried again!
*she
wheres the 765 when you need her
@railcamp09 Thats probley becouse they know what their doing, and they know that you apearintly dont, simple as that.
The train did not "stall"! The presence of the other train should be a clue. The steam special "cleared up" to allow a superior train to pass in accordance with that company's rules, operating practice, or authority granted to the other train. The practice of putting pennies on the rail has nothing to do with traction; it has to do with having the penny becoming a missile and being thrown out, causing passersby injury or property damage. It is a stupid practice!
The little engine that couldn't
A tourist or steam special is considered optional and doesn't usually have superior authority. If this one is a freight, and or running as an extra (white flags) it still doesn't have priority. *IF* the steam train cleared up, it was because of the way its track authority or train order read, and because it is displaying white flags. It is done according to FRA rules. They do NOT stall trains for the fun of it! Putting pennies on the track is stupid and dangerous.
Bad quality coal or lazy fire man ? In 7:20 25% of the coal goes up to sky ; )
Stoker equipped.
Stall? On a down grade? No way.
@425ENGR Perhaps your 24 years of railroad experience can explain why 1) they stopped the train with steam applied, and 2) why they stopped on the main line? If they wanted to run the CP freight past it, they would have run the steamer on the siding, and cut the steam before they stopped it.
In starting a steam engine, I have heard that they use flares to ignite the coal. It takes about 24 hours for full steam pressure to develop before they can use the engine. It takes 240psi pressure to operate this engine. In shutdown, you stop feeding coal to the fire and let it go out, keeping plenty of water for the boiler. You never want the boiler to run out of water as it is cooling down. Same way on startup. You keep water in the boiler as pressure builds to 240psi.
Folks, READ the entire thread. The train stopped to allow a superior train to pass: simple as that! The WHITE "extra" flags, the presence of the freight train, the fact that the crew got down and waited---all indicate a scheduled "meet" or "pass" maneuver. These things are routine for ALL trains. The answers have been in the thread all along to ALL your questions.
The engine is capable of handing what they throw at it!!!
No stall here, she just stopped to let a higher priority train pass. Also, 765 could also do this rather easily, given the fact that she outperformed 1225 in pulling the New River Train. ALSO, she was able to start from a dead stop and some of those cars looked like they were still on the slope.
Um not to offend you but the PM 1225 is stronger than the NKP 765
Hm, I've been wondering which is the more powerful one for a while, it should've been obvious since the 1225's tractive effort is higher than the 765's. And no worries, I'm not offended.
09trainman cool but I also don't think it's a stall I think it's some steam trouble or they are letting the other engine pass because it maybe has a more i important load
***** I think it's the 2nd one you said.
09trainman Do you think they will scrap the PM 1225 :(
That's why I keep trying to tell people, but they won't listen! :) They know nothing of which they speak, nothing of "right, class, or direction", or what those white flags mean!
This is nothing more than a "sked" meet of two trains where one is to "take siding" for another train! I see nothing to indicate otherwise. If they'd just listen to the REAL railroaders among us instead to "foamers", they'd be all right! LOL! I tried to tell 'em several posts back, but.............................
The people who run and work for SRI are a bunch of jerks. They thing they are better than everyone else...
Folks, safety first is safety first. If you cannot understand that around a railroad, you have no business being there. The train crew is there to make sure the engine gets over the road, and the Railroaders are paid to make sure that is the case. And you guys wonder why CSX no longer allows steam.....look in the mirror.
PULL!!!
might have not been burning enough coal notice it wasnt as black as it was when it started back up
Wheelslip??
There you go folks. They did NOT stall. The stop was requested as they were having difficulty keeping the pressure up and would have eventually stalled. The very slow cycling of the air compressors tells that the pressure was very low. It would have only done more harm to the boiler trying to continue at that time.
Lousy fireman👎👎🚂🚂