Marksmen: Is AD Carry a Dying Role? | League of Legends
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
- This is starting to become one of my favorite series to work on and I'm glad you guys enjoy it as much as I do! As per your vote, we're gonna be talking about Marksmen (A.K.A. ADC or AD Carry) and discussing if it's a dying class.
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#LoL #Marksmen #Class
It's a hard role to sell, when your pitch is "does a lot of damage LATER, but nothing else" while every other role is "does a lot of damage NOW, and also has mobility/utility/durability/etc"
Don't forget how many games dont have a later.
Exactly, it doesn't make any sense!
Yeah it sucks
That's why I play jhin. You always have crowd control to help.
Actually if the champion with now power destroys you as adc your later power becomes late game minion i saw an adc youtuber being killed in ranked by minions as ADC in late game lmao!
Plot twist Adc doesn't mean Attack Damage Carry but it means Always Dying Carry
AD, Carried
Always dying crybaby
Always Dying and Cries 😂😂😂😂
Attack -> die -> cry
Alawys Dying Constantly
"Safely output their dps from a distance." ""SAFELY"
Lmao
just git gud
Yep, mostly safely if there's no assassin and if you got peel from your support. Trying to kill adc who's guarded by lulu is a pain in the ass. That's why I like Samira, Samira is the one ballsy champion for the adc players.
I mean you are tanky enough not to get oneshot, have enough mobility to force the enemy to get to your position at least twice, enough dmg to kill everything in no time and a supp (even if he is mostly a random monkey doing nothin he is still there just not doing his job) who can either cc them so you get a freekill or give you enough tankiness to just never die so you get a freekill, or they are Yuumi doing neither of those because a heal of 20 isnt gonna help you that much.
@@markoercegovic5820 thanks I'm cured
In a way, I feel like yasuo and yone are really a big issue for the ADC class. If the crit items for ADCs get too good, it’ll make those champions OP. I’ll always wonder why they thought double crit passive was a good idea. Seems fundamentally too gold efficient and limits how good crit items can be
Not to mention Yone and yasuo got their passive adjusted so they could reach 100% crit with 2 items whereas adcs have to wait for another item to crit consitently
I honestly think riot is just worried about what will happen if yasuo and Yone are allowed to build whatever items they want to. If they remove the crit passive now, they’ll have to adjust their power budget to give them more power elsewhere, and suddenly they’re more free to use other items. As of now, your Yone who rushes botrk wits end sunfire is actual trolling, but if the wind brothers had crit passive removed they’d be made stronger in other ways and would honestly be even more frustrating to deal with.
I’m not disputing that the wind brothers existence hurts adc item balance, but if they were able to break free of crit items they’d abuse fighter items too hard
Riot love them
@@boomynotethey wouldn't have the dmg to be that strong
@@somo4227 They'd 100% receive compensation buffs if the crit was removed though. Think their Q's just naturally doing double damage instead of needing to build crit.
Alternatively, without the double crit passive they could still build full crit but now they won't have the crit damage reduction that not everyone realizes that they have.
They're strong because they spike relatively early off crit items, but technically they do less damage than ranged crit adc's due to the crit damage nerfs they have built into their kits.
If the crit components of their kits were removed, they'd not only receive compensation buffs but also have both more flexibility to build other things and more late game potential overall.
As my man skooch once said, also known as the “god-has-left-us patch”
This.
Is.
Old pantheon be like
Why thou art forsaken us?
Tbh, I feel like it's either a oneshot machine (basicaly a ranged assassin) or you don't notice them at all in team fights
Nowadays Its tough to feel ad carrys presence, most of the time im playing i tend to focus more on Split Pushing and jungle farming to preserve myself for when teamfights starts rather than starting almost dead in teamfights, as strong as assassins are nowadays you need to show more utility than damage, and even though i like that idea not everyone enjoys it
Vars summed it up pretty nicely. A lot of games end before the mid-game even ends really, and as ADC if you don't have 2-3 items by the 25 minute mark, you're just not going to do well. ADC's a weird spot because you're kinda forced into playing "AFK Minion Farm Simulator" with a variable chance of assassins coming for you. ADCs are almost always behind in item power/levels when it comes to fighting the mid/top laners so they're forced to farm harder during mid game to catch up and get to a point where they're useful.
But once the enemy adc hit their 3 item power spikes and turn into a real champion, they go from an easy 300g to suddenly a massive threat. And all it takes (in my experience) is 1 fight for them to prove it by getting a triple kill for the enemy team to start playing as their personalized security team.
Which is the funny part to me. You have to not only scale up as ADC, but then you have to prove to your team that you're now strong enough to carry them for them to actually feel like peeling for you.
@@Kalanin399 The sentence "AFK Minion Farm Simulator" makes me laugh everytime, I love that expressiom
Ranged assassin? you mean a mage? lol
@@Kalanin399 Ive just played a game that summed up all your thought process here, Yesterday my team was losing the lanes, but due to most champions on my team having mid game Spikes i ended up not being as needed during Tfs so i just farmed and destroyed the towers, for a brief resume at 31-32 min i got 2 triple kills in less than 3 or 4 minutes, carried the rest of the lanes alone and took the win
the problem is that I play adc for the champions not the role. if I can just play irelia, syndra, etc instead of an actual adc then I might as well play mid or top
^^^ this. like a friend even once suggested I move to mid (where yes you CAN play ADCs but it's usually for assassins or mages and going ADC removes one of those slots from your team) but like...1) I have almost no experience in mid lane. 2) I'm still an adc. I still get people coughing in my general direction and I die. and 3) I love the ADC playstyle. kiting, ranged auto attack resetting, attack moving, etc. It's super fun for me! until I'm just literally not allowed to play the game because a tank dove on me and oneshot me. or a zed dove on me and oneshot me. or a mage oneshot me. or-
yea I feel like Marksmen are balanced more akin to an MMO, where your tank can literally just press one button and FORCE the enemy to pay attention to them, so you dont NEED as much self defense as a glass canon. but league isnt an mmo...
@@0MidnighttheDragon0 facts wow glad you put it that way. DPS works in theory in an MMO, but like in league where we’re fighting humans and not an AI, it’s near impossible unless you just happen to catch someone out and they panic. I’m also of the opinion that ADC is a purely selfish role (not the players, the role itself). Hear me out:
Almost any other role has the ability to help the team in more than just one way. In fact, a lot of roles like enchanters and CC tanks can do the exact same thing regardless if they have 10 kills or 10 deaths. Enchanters especially offer a huge variety of tools for very little gold. Meanwhile, if an ADC falls behind, they have zero, absolutely zero, backup plan. They can’t just “build tanky” the way a 0/4 sett toplane can. Most can’t just “go for picks” the way a 0/3 TF mid can (lacking in reliable cc for pick potential). And most of them don’t have a 10 death power spike like Yasuo or Yone do (jk, the real reason is yasuo’s crit strike modifier passive and follow-up cc, while Yone has an amazing teamfight ult and a similar hyper scaling passive). Even assassins who are behind will STILL 1 tap a squishy once they hit their 2nd item. ADC is the only role that is nearly impossible to play from behind unless your teammates carry you, and that’s the opposite of what an ADC is intended to do. You’re supposed to be the carry, not the carried.
Tldr: this is why I started playing enchanters bc regardless of how piss poor I do in lane I’m useful immediately after buying my mythic, which is super cheap and easily accessible.
@@alliu6562 oh I HARD agree. Its why i tilt so hard when I'm behind. Like yea, of course I'm mad. Me being behind LITERALLY MEANS THIS IS A 4V6. I'm just a money pouch. You may be under fed but at least YOU have cc or tankiness or SOMETHING. I have damage. And only damage. But I'm so behind that i don't do damage. So I have nothing
@@alliu6562 id actually disagree, i think its more the ideology around adc that is the problem. most league players expect an adc to just be able to 1v5 at any time and at the end of the game have 30 plus kills and have 50000 damange. we are just no longer in a meta like that. yes, most adcs dont offer much in terms of cc and other tools but what they do offer is damange and thats much more important than you think. in short even if your behind as an adc you can still auto and cause decent damange and help your team by kiting, the problem is that if you play adc your expected to have most of the kills and burst down the enemy team in seconds when in reality you dont have to do that to be relevent.
@@tonguepop9453 bro what are you talking about? if you offer damage but are behinnd and dont do damage what does that bring to the team ? youre arguing their points.. 'decent damage by kiting' .. Bro the full tank malphite does more damage than you and all hes doing it pressing q and right clicking .. not dodging anything nothing just walking through
I have a suggestion for a video... "When Support stopped being Support"
Basically the thing that I've been seeing too much, people playing Mid mages as Support, stealing kills and minions for their ADC and whatnot
This has me upset to. Nothing like a zyra bot (not worth calling supp).
Indeed. It's almost as if there was too many support mains to begin with, so that they had to make most of them quit to balance it out with other lanes.
The reason why I always ban Brand when going Support
Where do you think mages will go when they're being pushed out of mid? Both mages and adcs are compensating.
@@hecatia666 AP lux "supports" are more common however
One thing people forget is that the role that an ADC fulfills was meant to be a very very specific one: Safe, unrestrained and consistent DPS.
This has more layers to it than it meets the eye.
The range was meant to keep them safe... but now everyone has a million dashes, so naw the range doesn't matter.
Auto attack damage is not limited by mana or silences... but then Riot removed all the silences from champs and everyone now gets mana for free from runes and Lost Chapter. (Like, for real. One you notice than newer champs like Kayn and Pyke have better base mana regen than ACTUAL mages like Soraka or Sona, you know Rito don' messed up). This is also the reason why APCs are not a real thing because the "attack damage" in ADC actually refers to "dealing damage with attacks". So, yes, Yasuo is an ADC. So is Yi and Trynd.
They also were supposed to provide consistent damage... which can't happen because:
- People can dash our of range as previously mentioned.
- Everyone else can close distance and kill you (which shouldn't happen)
- All fights end in less than 5 seconds.
If you notice, all popular marksmen right now have something in common: Big burst ability + Hail of blades with Kraken Slayer (Kai'sa / Trist / Twitch / even damn Kog'maw) or extremely hard bursty poke + Dark Harvest (Sivir / Varus / MF / Senna) with Samira being the only actual outlier... but Samira is Samira.
The role isnt dying. It's dead and buried and Rito laughs about it, just because ADC actually get to be meaningful in coordinated play. Just like Sona and Soraka.
Ironic that they say they want people to have fun and get along when they turn the game into five 1v1 and the first who gets a kill can 1v9 (except ADCs) and nerf all strategies that require actual cooperation.
And then they wonder why everyone is toxic and frustrated. They literally provide zero incentive to work together.
Assassins should be able to get kills on champs that make mistakes or are on low HP, even if they tanks. But they shouldn't just be able to delete a player from the game, that is really unhealthy.
Tanks should not be able to stun a player out of a fight for 10 continuous seconds while dealing the same damage than the ADC and healing what absurdly little damage they take. They should be able to tank for the teammates, tank towers and monsters and peel for the backline.
Mages shouldn't have free mana whenever they like. They should be able to get huge mana pools so they can cast more spells in critical situations, but not be able to spam them so when they miss they can just try again.
Supports should choose between supportive damage, utility and protection. But then again, Moonstone/Mandate exists.
ADC suck. The only thing holding them together is DH and hail of blades and some overtuned buffs from Rito.
Das my rant.
That's a pretty accurate picture of the poor state of league of legends in 2021
and they just nerfed hail of blades hard just too top it off
You, my friend, ought to look at Dota 2's mechanics. It is a far more strategy-oriented game, in the sense that a 30-kill lead by the enemy team doesn't matter unlike LoL's laughable snowballing, and objectives truly matter. You can't win without team coordination: the team with a 20-kills carry simply cannot carry the entire team to victory. The Buy-back mechanic (paying gold to immediately respawn after dying) gives you the chance to win an unfavorable clash where you just died.
Also, the roles in Dota 2 are so diverse. Good supports don't just have to ward; they can roam, they can help other lanes, and they can also carry, depending on their kits.
@@__rikaisuru DotA also doesn't require you to jungle in the same way that League does. Tri-Lanes are super popular and some of the strategy in them involves stacking up camps for the carry to farm later and leashing your own lane mobs to them on order to control the wave and deny gold/xp to your long-lane opponent. This gives pure supports other vectors to influence the macro game without necessarily needing to engage in traditional laning the way league does (where LoL is particularly volatile by contrast as you have to engage with your opposing laner's threat range at some point if you want to farm anything), particularly as in the stacking example that turns those camps into micro-objectives the enemy can steal in certain situations.
It's the combination of dynamic jungle control, stronger creep manipulation, and less restrictive laning requirements that lets DotA do so much more than League does. Just adding stacking camps to Summoner's Rift would open up so much more macro-play, but trees would also have to be added because a lot of the counterplay to those strategies specifically relies on vision control and the ability to sneakily leech exp. The downside is there is more a lot more non-interactive early games, but it also alters how you play for the mid-game, particularly as it enables carries to get to the point they can ultra-farm half the map (or all of it, once towers start falling).
@@__rikaisuru Dota 2 has nothing to do with it really, back in season 5 or 6 they put objectives like Dragon so that tournaments wouldn't look like a farm fest snore for half of the match, they want action in 5 mins to the end.
Dota 2 has buy back cause at lategame respawns could reach almost 2 mins, almost 3 if there's a Necro, while in LoL it's less than a minute, if you add each game's average respawn time, it ain't that much different.
And what's that last paragraph even for? you really want to challenge diversity? when everybody in LoL can plant wards and have heal summoner spells, not to mention supports like Sona can even be ADC's.
Rather than Dota 2 shitting on LoL, why can't it solve it's own player population declining first then?
Feels good to play ADC when you are the one ahead. Because your lane opponents are inting
Almost everyday
So fucking true.ANYTIME I get fed on adc,the opponents were 85 percent inting
@@True_Damage69 bro I swear I'm like 8/2 my other lanes are 2/10
Honestly, doesn't feel that great even when I'm ahead. I'm not really the bogeyman that a fed midlaner or toplaner is, and no matter how fed I am, I'm always one wrong step away from death.
@@dragonslair951167 yeah, it feels like a fed adc gets punished really hard for a single wrong step, while a fed assassin or bruiser can play a lot worse, deal the same damage and stay relevant anyway
"Aside from Kindred and Corki, all marksmen are played in the botlane". Quinn is always forgotten, even when mentioning marksmen who are/can be played in other lanes.
*Urgot and Azir have left the chat
(they both have the marksman tag if you filter for it in the shop if you're wondering)
Quinn is a specialist :)
@@VarsVerum I would say Quinn is more of an assassin at the current moment
@Super Top Secret Area yep I am just stating she is more of an assassin. Her real role is actually scouter to be exact
Lucian and Tristana mid?
the main advantage of playing marksmen: they are FUN and learning them feels a lot more rewarding than playing something like mundo or garen or yi. this is the same reason why fighters and assassins with high skill ceilings are so popular (riven, yasuo, akali, etc.). they take a lot of time and effort to learn, so when your practice finally pays off, it feels great.
i didn't main adc until a year ago, i basically only played support but always had a soft spot for marksmen since playing an ice archer (ashe) in the tutorial back in the day is what drew me into the game. so senna's release as well as a huge frustration with my adcs on ranked pushed me to switch roles and despite it being a big pain to this day, it is also the most fun i'm having with the game. especially over the past months i've been trying other roles more regularly as well but nothing could really keep my attention (besides maybe irelia).
sure, they are kinda easily replacable in the bot lane at this point. but as it's said in the video, the high risk/high reward that come with marksmen will keep them in the game. and i don't think they'll ever be not viable (unless crit items get fully butchered again but even then, many can still just build lethality), it's just a higher learning curve than it used to be imo.
tl;dr - marksmen bring me joy in this toxic af game, no matter what, so they are worth it
But unlike an adc, mundo goes anywhere he wants
It's the same situation as assassins. And noone ever said assassins were useless. Do you NEED an assassin? No. But in the scenario where you outskill and get a lead from your lane, and from there wipe the floor with 1-2 targets without fail from a fight and still escape alive I'd bloody want an assassin. But if I'm not skilled enough for that, there are options for the same lane, maybe an Anivia, maybe a Galio.
ADC's are not dying. The skill floor just rose dramatically and with it. One could argue that ADC was just ridiculous back then, remember the 4 shields/peelers + machine gun meta? You shouldn't get to insta-win the game just because you have peel, 300 CS & more range/better kit/coinflip against the enemy ADC.
And every other class/role always had this discrepancies. Thresh & the rest of the supports. Riven/Fiora & the rest of the toplaners. E.t.c E.t.c
The footnote is. Don't play traditional carries if you're trash.
Bro I feel you. Once I was playing wukong(atm I wasn't maining any role just trying different lanes) and one game I autofill adc as Tristana and an ezreal stomps me so hard that I started crying. Then I started playing ezreal and I struggled HARD in first 50 games. BUT ever since, I have become ezreal main and have so much fun playing ezreal in any lane and have even found limited success in jungle ezreal. And I also love irelia but I'm bot mechanically skilled so I'll probably skip on irelia for now
@@joaogoncalves5357 i agree with you mostly besides your "footnote". like skill floor is high but how is anyone gonna learn if they don't actually play the champs? smh
I used to main ADC cuz I was good at it and I liked it. Now I main ADC because it feels like a responsibility. No one plays the role, and if I leave it to some random player I'm risking myself to lose because they normally feed.
Im playing for both sides: Fun and Responsibility.
I love to play the Ad Carry Role but at the same time it feels like people are always a 0/100 situation, either they go All in and die tons of times, or they dont go at all and lose all their farm, people dont know how to balance that correctly
As a tank main I salute you
Same man
I started playing Jhin and man he is really fun
Sheesh. I hate ADC before t2 boots and 2 items
You're confusing it with Jungle
I mean, they technically are dying a lot
ADC is hit or miss.
The game either is decided way before you start doing anything useful or you scale and start melting enemies.
The biggest issue for me is that it feels like you are a plan B in case the game lasts long. If it’s short it’s never because of the ADC. And in season 11 games are short and snowbally like never before.
My exact thoughts.
Champs like Tristana and Lucian are unlanable against in mid and have unreasonable burst.
A good adc is useful with 1 item
@@ortille709 i want to meet that ADC that is just as useful as an assassin, tank or jungler with 1 item.
Ezreal doesn't count btw
@@constantinvalidol5472 They're exceptions, in that they are lane bullies and have mobility. (Also they're not 3 levels behind you come midgame, which tends to help)
I bet he is going to say "the role is more popular than ever before and its balanced" but in 15 minutes
Hah!
@@VarsVerum ....he nailed it completely didnt he?
@@phoenixflamegames1 nah thats not a HAha you got me, thats a HAH i came to a totally different conclusion
@@tatzecom and he didnt lul
Forgot too talk about the two greatest peaks for Marksmans/ADC.
The Dawn of Lethality (When a Jhin could 100 - 0 anyone with the last bullet in Curtain Call)
The Marksman Rework (5 Attack Speed Kog'Maw) and the subsequent revert of it.
Is the role dying? Maybe but is the laner dying? apparently not according to my 0/7 support
Well the minions are not dying for sure, according to my 30 cs adc at 10 minutes.
Weird my 0/21 bot lane said the same
@@frankieyuen9363 lmfao
That's exactly what ADCs say when they get 0/15/1.
Gotta love the Mids-gone-bot supports that don’t have supp abilities.
Yes, riots incessant desire to make every role able to carry has made the traditional form of adcs irrelevant. Only mobile adcs are able to perform consistently now. It's no wonder qt left league.
I honestly wouldn’t mind adcs to be stronger, as long as their scaling isn’t insane (looking at you vayne). This is coming from a bruiser too.
I just feel like the ADC role has a massive skill ceiling, overly big at that. It is said that champs like Azir are extremely punished for one mistake, but that's the standard for the ADC class. In a world where a late game Akali does 80%+ of your life in her E, literally, and solo queue has it's intricacies regarding teammates, it's a very punishing role
@@jessegrove5456 lol vayne's scaling isn't insane. It's reliant on single target damage with landing 3 autos on one target in a row at the shortest range out of any adc in the game. If you want to look at insane scaling look at jinx and kogmaw, tristana, twitch, adcs with actual range. Range is one of the biggest components of insane scaling. Vayne scales okay in a 1v1 duel if the player is able to outplay. But in terms of a front to back fight which adcs are normally meant to be good at, vayne's scaling is definitely not that insane...
@@shubhod9569 If you're talking about front to back fights, can you name a better adc to kill a 5k hp 300 armor Cho'gath than Vayne?
@@gimmix9478 thing is most games you dont have to worry about something like that lol. Also kogmaw could do it better because of range, and kraken slayer let's jinx do it too. Long range is king for adcs
Ye, probably. The role in general is item reliant. That means that ADCs become impactful 25-30 minutes into the game. With turret plates, heralds, and the item/champion changes to make them more snowbally (snowballcreep?), that's just too late. At 25 minutes, the game is usually so one-sided, your impact is meaningless. Not to mention if you ARE useful, you just get deleted by tank Sett or Garen with stridebreaker.
Thankfully stridebreaker is getting a rework in the next patch though. No more Darius engaging from half a map away :)
@@lihn but the new stridebreaker will make the mathematically corret sett stronger since it does doble damage and slows 90%
@@davidsamudio3899 mathematically correct sett builds goredrinker
Yeah... or deleted by any mobile character period
@@davidsamudio3899 Unless I'm wrong, it wont. It will scale with AD, while Sett stacks HP
"Just play mages it's way better" would have also been a good title.
Yeah but he needs the clicks
You are smoking crack, crit items are so much better than mage items rn its insane
@@dumpsta-divrr365 they are but u wont have the gold to build them cause the Zed mid will come down while you and your support are level 3-4, ult and kill you both under tower.
I think the traditional ad carry archetype which is an immobile squichy carriy with ton of sustained damage is dying yeah, right now if u look at the most popular adcs they're all hypermobile hard to kill semiassassins that can oneshot like Kaisa, Tristana, Vayne, Samira ... etc
Overbuffed ezreal.....
Mostly because all of the old carries got nerfed to hell and we even lost one of the ogs. Graves got kicked out of the bot lane and corki is a piece of trash. Even Xayah and Aphelios, newer ones, are shit.
@@ljdoff Loving the new Aphelios "Buffs."
i feel it’s necessary for the progression of ADC to semi assassin with the recent changes in league that all lead to a snowballier game
but i really like the ad carry role as a whole. it makes me sad to see that it may soon become permanently irrelevant
Wish the League carries had the same impact like the Dota Carries
i mean they are basically unkillable and going in a 1v1 with em in mid to late game is basically suicide unless you are the opposite team carry
But offlaners are more impactful than carries in dota
You say that, but nothing is more disheartening than having a team that refuses to ward the enemy jungle, gank in any meaningful way, or end the game before the opposing Medusa/Spectre get full build and run straight over your team.
you basically hit the nail on the head, our role feels like it's just...not effective
even if we are carrying so hard we can 2-3 shot an enemy with 2-3 autos, if our allies don't protect us we may as well not even be champions. I can't name the number of games where I've left lane like 10/0, but then realized the enemy had a 3/5 top laner and well that means I dont exist I guess.
and what's worse is that if we leave lane NOT having done well our only chance of getting back in is to turbofarm which...we cant do. becasue either teammates follow us to the lane and take all the CS so we struggle to even get like 10-30 cs in 10 minutes (I'm not joking. this happens ALL THE FUCKING TIME and I hate it)
or we do FINALLY get to have some CS to ourselves an-oh look 4 of the enemy team showed up to kill the 0/5 adc just...because we are the adc. ok then.
we're just constantly in a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" situation and thats WHY we complain so much. almost EVERY OTHER ROLE has at least SOME way to defend itself, even if it's not super strong it's THERE. Shieldbow and merc scimitar just arent enough
@@hotlinekrapfen I have played every other role aside from jungle, and I still agree that ADC is the hardest to carry effectively with. I find playing the role the most fun (I play draven), but it's much harder to 1v9 as a fed ADC than a fed top laner or mid. It just comes down to the fact that adcs have no defense, so if more than one enemy champion decides to focus you, and your team decides to not peel ( which is way too common) then your lead means nothing. The enemy tanks and bruisers will all one shot you. While as a bruiser, tank or mage it's way easier to push that lead as when you are ahead not only are you doing more damage, but are harder to kill as well.
@@hotlinekrapfen
But the thing is for most adc mains, when we say adc or think of the role we mean Marksmen. So yes if I main adc I mean I main marksman. As does every other adc main
@@hotlinekrapfen
No the issue is that EVERYONE ELSE IS ALLOWED TO PLAY THEIR ENJOYED PLAYSTYLE but we are SOL. How dare we enjoy kiting and attack moving and such. How dare we want to have at least ONE ROLE that lets us play our prefered champions.
@@hotlinekrapfen
yes they are fragile but heres the thing, theres fragile, and then theres LITERALLY unplayable. in something like an MMO , being this fragile? sure, yea, since our allies can literally press one button to force everyone to not pay attention to us. but this isnt an mmo. we need SOME sort of self defense, even if minor.
and you're basically arguing that it's okay that one class jsut doesnt get to enjoy themselves, but LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CLASS can at least still kinda have fun. and we arent crying because we can't 1v9, we are crying because we are 15/1 and can't even 1v1 a 3/5 top laner or mid lane assassin. Again, theres glass canon, and then there's literally just glass, minus the canon.
@@hotlinekrapfen
I WANT to be able to play a playstyle I enjoy, and also, shieldbow REALLY doesnt give eonugh defense...at all. it's supposed to be able to save us in some situations but I rarely ever see it do so. And also, I should be able to still say I lack damge there, because there needs to be a BALANCE. it shouldnt be "either you do 0 damage or you just arent allowed to play league" again, why is EVERY otehr class allowed to play the game, but we arent.
There's another reason Shieldbow isn't always great:
Serpent's Fang exists.
But thankfully no one builds it unless you have 2+ Shielbows in your team or just heavy shields in general. In the last month of playing I can recall three times were Serpent's Fang would've been useful to my team or the enemy's.
@@mr.paperbag771 its really prelevant in todays meta since you usually have a ad assassin in soloq who does fairly well with the item like kha or qiyana
@@wedwastaken2362 I think Qiyana might actually be a hidden op this patch but no one plays her because
A. they don't know she's op
and
B. she's actually hard to play
EDIT:
Still kind of weird how the item is only good in niche cases or these two champs.
@@mr.paperbag771 Some ad assassins (Zed, Qiqi) are building it even if there aren't any shields on a team since it's so cheap with good stats.
@@mr.paperbag771 I play qiqi yeah shes op but no matter how fed you are as qiqi you get 1 shotted if you miss a double combo but overall a good ult changes the table of a teamfight shes like a glasscannon
The discussion at the end about positions and roles makes me think about how roles work in Dota. Dota generally sorts positions by farm priority, so position 1 is the hard carry who spends most time farming while 5 is the hard support. Notably, unlike league, different types of heroes can function as a position 1-there are squishy melee hard carries, bulky fighters, ranged carries, and so on- the only criteria is that they want to farm the most. It's possible to imagine a future League where champions are sorted like that rather than the "tank or bruiser top, mage or assassin mid, marksman bot"
I think league's community is a bit to close minded and sticks to "tradition" more than it should. The meta we have right now was not made by riot, it was just the way people back in season 1-2 found to be more effective. The game is different now and perhaps a different lane / role distribution is needed to match the current state of the game. Sadly, riot doesn't help either as they seem to want to keep the lane distribution as it is right now.
@@tsv4242 Reminds me of how they've murdered funneling. Sure, it was toxic in solo queue, but it's also possible to imagine a game where the hard carry farms a lane and the jungle, with 2 supports- in fact, that's kind of how Dota works.
@@squidheadss7105 not to mention pro play, with 2 supports 2 hyper carries 1 tank comps
What happened is that ADC realized they weren't feeding fast enough.
So they decided to die as a whole in order to permanently boost the enemy team.
4:33 That Ezreal missed literally everything and still won against Senna
This is one of the reasons people stop playing because even if your a much better player you still lose because of a different lane
Bruh he got fed and he is FIVE levels ahead.
In my opinion Riot makes it difficult with the items. Because they cost so much gold, you need to be ahead or you'll always be behind. Farming barely does you any good too until you start racking up kills, but that's only if you participate in fights that you are incapable of making an impact BECAUSE you are behind. And because your whole role is reliant on building damage, you can't just switch to defensive items like other classes because there simply aren't enough options like that in store.
Also making it so you need five items to have 100 crit chance.
@@johnsaxon5154 Remember that it still takes the Yasuo Brothers 2 items to hit 100% Crit so they scale much harder compared to ADCs.
@@TheIrrelevantYT Yes for arbitrary reasons.
So, your final answer is something like:
- Marksmen are no longer needed in the modern League. Mages, unconventional ranged champions, and even bruisers can work.
- Having variety in the bot lane is good, both for Bot and Support.
- Since Riot's approach for roles is "every role, and therefore any class, should be able to carry", then just play whatever you like the most down there.
- People still play Marksmen cuz they're fun and the power vs risk fantasy they bring is enough to make people excited.
I personally think you missed a lot of topics:
- Since ADC has the highest damage ceiling, they must have the most difficult pathway to achieve it. The most unfun meta is one where ADCs are just too strong and they get to achieve their peak much early in the game. They not only have a lot of damage, but they also lack counterplay for the most part since you can't dodge autos.
- For ADCs to be effective, they need to have high cs scores, low deaths, and not fall behind in xp. Just like in the previous point, to achieve their peak they need to play perfectly. That's why pro players have no problem at getting rank 1 playing only ADC in soloQ; their macro, good cs scores, safe playstyle allows them to scale and impose a threat in midgame just by pure farm and xp, without needing kills. Of course, low elo players can't handle that, and that's why they are the worst performers for that role and the only times they get to carry is when they get fed (which happens often in bot lane).
- Sometimes, the threat of doing damage is good enough by itself. Of course, the assassin is going to target you, cuz you're not only squishy but also dangerous. Being a priority target can force opponents to misplay while trying to reach you. If the enemy Kled tries to get to you by burning flash, R, everything, then even if you die, you still get value out of that, and if their team overextends, then your team can win after.
- ADCs need to have their agency limited cuz when an ADC gets ahead, their support also gets ahead. In the modern League where any support can carry games too, that becomes especially dangerous. The agency of an ADC + their support needs to be not that much higher than the agency of a mid, otherwise, the game becomes heavy bot lane focused. And it kinda is right now due to early Dragon elements.
Good points!
I remember a game where our main problem wasn't the fed Kai'sa, but her Lulu. She was 2 levels ahead of our suport and simply didn't let any of her teammates die and basically carry the game. I still joke with my duo about her flashing through a wall in our jungle, with no fear and no vision, chasing the dying midlaner
"The most unfun meta is one where ADC" BRUH LMAO. I cant even. Tank meta where u couldnt kill people or assassin meta where u get instakilled many times.
No, adcs need to have some more agency. 99% of the time I cant do shit to an assassin who is even slightly behind not mention that in solo q people arent going to play around u even in higher elo."
There is no "threat of damage" if the threat of damage gets instakilled. Also your threat of doing damage is completely invalid unless in high elo where people are communicating with each other. In all other elos , you better pray that one member of the team peels for you. Even if you are ahead as adc, it doesnt take much to get you killed especially if there assassin or bruisers aren't too far behind.
@@bobfty2680 Tank meta is almost as unfun. The difference is that now there are more tools than ever before to deal with them. And then you have champions that completely ruin them like Vayne, Trundle, Fiora, Illaoi, etc.
But ain't nobody evading those auto-attacks. Unless you're a filthy Yasuo main, that is.
truth, if adc just always rocked even at mid game with lackluster mechanical mastery League would just be heros of the storm
The reason ADC sometimes feels worthless is true that it's because of the lower base stats and stat growth, as well as lack of defensive itemization and lack of defensive tools in their kit, but that's just the surface, the symptom. The real problem is that ALL marksmen are balanced around the fact that they are tied to a support. It's a class that has a culture and identity around itself. They aren't ''bot laners'' they are support and adc, contrary to any other role that doesn't define itself by the class that plays it.
Riot fed this idea by endorsing the playstyle throughout the years, creating more supports and more marksmen meant to be played in tandem, so it's no wonder the role feels this way and why Riot has been trying to reverse all the damage they've caused by feeding it. This results in issues such as the ''Bot diff'' circlejerk, since theoretically if a role provides 20% of the team's power, the support and marksman basically provide 25% and 15% respectively, but when mid-late game comes around, that 15% that the marksman provides, becomes a 20% on its own. This is why you have most pro play metas centered around late game and marksmen, this is why junglers in pro play are just a second support. This is also a reason why assassins and divers are so obscene sometimes, they have to be, or the bot lane duo will always carry past 30 minutes unless they are very behind.
How could anyone justify this class having defensive itemization if it has a whole role dedicated to providing protection for it? How can this class ever get more mobility, more base stats, more agency if they have a walking meat shield peeling and tanking for them all the time? It's no wonder then, that when the average solo queue adc player gets caught in the river and one shot, we as a community blame the role and circlejerk about it, which, while true and right, we perpetuate that stigma that there HAS to be a marksman bot and they HAVE to be supported.
ADC or 'Marksmen' should be a class, not a role, their power curve should be more in line with other classes instead of below average at the start and above average later. Then and only then will the whole ADC memes come to an end and we can all have a more balanced experience when playing this class.
Supports are dumbasses this season. They pick the most selfish, mid-gone-bot mages/all-in engage tank supports and either watch me die or force an all-in at a disadvantage, die and then blame me. Every time someone picks Brand or Lux, or Swain support I cringe because I know full well what type of players play them support - the most selfish pieces of **** who would gladly shove the wave taking all CS while you are gone, and then try to one-shot the enemy ADC, only to be greeted by the actual smarter support who peels for their ADC and knows when to engage, poke, shove, freeze, slow push and don't leave their ADC for dead mid to late game I am TERRIFIED going ADC solo, absolutely mortified. Because today's supports are even more selfish than ADCs, and ADC is the most selfish role of all, that should be very telling
It will kill the game for millions of support and adc players. I hope riot never do such stupid thing.
I used to play Heroes of the Storm, and man it was fun. You pick a character before the match, not a role. And every marksmen had agency! I believe LoL could really learn a lot from it
you are kinda rigth, but the wrong reason. its supposed they have the range advantage, so if they got good stats or defensive options, the range would make then broken, but the game have too many options to simply ignore that advantage
Just an ADC main here!
I would say that the main advantages of having a marksman on your team are:
Consistent DPS in TF
Decent tower siege
Objective shredding
Late game advantage
Now, depending on the enemy composition, you can get away with not having the marksman fill some of these roles (Ezreal and Jhin are playable despite not being able to shred tanks easily, but they do double down on tower siege, so it's kind of an occasional trade-off you can make). However, it is true that marksmen are no longer needed to fill these aspects of a team composition. Cassio, Ryze, Azir, as well as a bunch of fighters can very easily cover the DPS aspect of marksmen. Heck, even assassins such as Yi and Yone can! And with wizards being able to do magic damage to towers now, having an ADC to do the job is also hardly needed. Finally, many other champions can assure your team doesn't fall off too hard late game (Kayle, Kassadin, Yi, Veigar, Yasuo, Yone, and these are only the damage dealers), and even if you don't get to have them on your team, "having advantage if you manage to get to the late game" is a big "if" to base your composition around.
So yes, I would say that you can get around not having an ADC, but you'll have to be careful, not anything is going to work, you need to get a good balance of ranged and melee champions (if you are not going for a HardDiveComp, which would be hard, but not impossible, to pull off), else they'll siege-kite you out of existence, and you need to have at least one champ that can shred tanks and objectives. Personally, I think it would be interesting to see ADC getting more independent and becoming some sort of ranged fighters that could flex lanes, and have more mages in the botlane, I do not know how could riot balanced that, but it would be neat. Not getting my hopes up tho.
Great vid!
I agree but bruisers would have a terrible time in top if ranged was strong enough to flex. Every time an ADC is too strong they end up top instead of mid because they can punish bruisers but assassins punish them. I think this video was more on getting more classes in bot lane over getting adcs to other lanes. This to me makes sense since the champion pool for bot is so slim compared to other roles.
@@jessegrove5456 I personally hate whenever vars suggests things like that. Because it is actually very easy to put other lane types in bot. Most just don't because there is this dying breed of us players who actually really enjoy the kits of marksman and hate that they can't be played effectively anywhere else. Any time you get duo mage or tank bot I groan because trying to lane against them is misery.
Balancing it? Easy. Give marksmen 30-200 extra health, 3-20 extra AD. Done. I did it. Balance team ftw. Maybe 1-18 AR/MR. This might be too much. Halve it perhaps. It doesn't seem to be much, but this is exactly what marksmen need to be relevant. This is about three secondary runes worth of stuff btw.
I know there was a durability patch. It was just lackluster in the marksmen and enchanter department. Although, I wouldn't give more than 120 HP overall to enchanters and zero AD. AR/MR they need to.
"We never once as a community explored what other scenarios can come out of having more variety in the botlane..."
We did and it was fucking awful.
As a support player, trying to support mages during the collapse of AD Carries was a tricky scenario because enchanters functioned better with auto attack based champs, meaning you'd either
A) Have 2 mages bot (counterbuilding was stupid easy)
B) Have a Tank and a Mage Bot (ideal, but stale having little variation as a supp main)
C) Just play an enchanter and fuck your team comp
There are outliers of course, you could argue to play like pyke support 30 games in a row, but the main idea here is that when you add more variation to the botlane, you actually restrict it as well. The same reason that Senna doesnt perform well with other ADCs in bot and would instead opt for tanks is the same reason why playing Swain and Morgana in bot isn't ideal. They don't cover each other's weaknesses, they simply share one, so they steamroll or get steamrolled.
That simply means that we need more support type varience, or existing supports should be augmented to be able to enable a wider array of champs.
Correct me if I'm mistaken but don't only two supports directly buff attack focused champs? Those being Janna with her shield that grants AD and Lulu with her AS buff? Unless ur taking items into account I'm pretty sure all the rest of the enchanter kits don't exactly have a preference for basic attack focused allies. Even if that were the case there's still some viable bot laners who aren't marksmen that still benefit from having thier basic attacks buffed, Ziggs, Cassiopeia, and TF to name a few, but it's not like mages were the only other viable bot carries, right?
@@okidoxb4846 Nami likes aa Users, and yes itemization plays a huge part. There was no staff of flowing water before for example
@@ChronicTHX Im not sure when they made the change, but ya know her Tidecaller's blessing buffs abilities and basic attacks?
@syao i think many would appreciate ur flexibility to play with a mage (me included), but why do u have such a narrow range of acceptable marksmen, why only those 2?
Marksmen is a class for champs that deal super high damage to a single target while mages are a class that deal high damage to multiple targets, i always think that should have way more sense if the mid lane was the lane for marksmen while the mages go bot with the supp, also if the adc is in mid, just by ganking him and taking out the enemy midlaner, jungler and him could rotate to herald or drake in early game to take it easily.
ADC mid mage bot is a great idea its just that most ADCs cant sustain well which is also why i almost always take fleet footwork with rav hunter. i got stomped just the other day by a kindred mid
you would also lvl faster tho and if they gave a very slight maybe 3-5 base dmg scaling buff to marksmen it would create a huge gap quick
@@Slutlyfe kindred is a special type of adc tho and perhaps one of the best suited for this meta
she has sustain + high damage + mobility + an ult that saves her, her team and guarantees her damage
ADC mid was a legit strat in early days of league, with bruiser +support bot n mage/Assassin top. That was when garen was actually a threat n received nerfs that he is still not recovered from.
Surprisingly, this is the argument Mobile Legends tried to impose on the playerbase there. ADCs get to farm mid alone since escaping is easy when you're in there, a mage should go Gold lane since gold lane's minions give 30% extra gold when killed at the start of the game, mainly the first 5 waves or so (Botlane) with a roamer (Usually a tank or support or even a fighter that helps the jungler and other lanes gank and clear), a fighter that goes Exp lane, that lane's minions give more exp at the start of the game (Top lane), to gather agency in topside, they fall into the category of split-pushers and team-fighters, self explanatory subclasses, and the jungler does what he does best; drive the local vegetation and wildlife into extinction while committing first degree murder of giant turtles and centaurs and people who they walk near.
But the classes and roles, feel pretty balanced for the most part, like old classic LoL where everything was broken and balanced at the same time, the meta is weird compared what LoL and Dota are used to (There are several types of laning, each one of them with their upsides and downsides. E.g. Classic 1-1-1-2 ordinary LoL-like comps; HyperFunneling 1-3-1 two supports help the hypercarry midlaner make plays all over the map and gank others while the carry scales with farm from the jungle, lanes, kills and objectives; Perma-pushing 1-2-2 relies on extreme pressure and timing to clear jungle and lanes in quick periods of time, generally have 2 hypercarries and 3 strong solo laners; Perma-teamfight 2-1-2 crash top and bot and team fight around objectives and towers, pretty fun and generally has a single carry and heroes good at team fighting; Wanna troll? 1-1-1-1-1, comprises of everyone buying support/roam items and staying away from each other, has 2 junglers and really good gank potential, a personal comp my team created to fool around in casuals that showed surprising results in ranked)
I personally hate the elder dragon, it is impossible to have a 40 or 50 minutes game now, everything is so fast and boring, in 15 you know which team won
but who genuinely wants 40-50 minute games lmao? Imagine wasting an nearly an hour just to lose.
@@iUseDemFrapz is that the games barely reach 30 minutes, I miss those of 50 minutes, it is always the same, are you going to tell me that winning a game of one hour is not satisfactory?
I agree I usually find longer games more satisfying, even if I lose I still enjoyed it. My most memorable league games are usually long ones.
Usually you can tell after 5 min already in many games
I like URF cause you win quick or you lose quick, *PERIOD*.
Even if they stall a game, I usually pick a champ that can either 1v1 or 2v1 really well or a champ that can poke from far away, so in short, I'm a threat and they realize they can't run the risk of a comeback so they have to end it quick
Fix the snowballing and ADC feels like an important role again
@@abcdefgh-kt9fx yo did you watch the video at all or did you accidentally move the slider to 15 minutes
Wait until we get to support. I will explain in the comments of that upcoming video why making every single role including support be selfish as possible, might be one of the most dick-headed moves you could ever do in a MOBA game.
God forbid Soraka and Sona heal more than a goredrinker whatever or shieldbow yone
I’m waiting for support as well. I’m tired of the mid mages being taken bot and not actually being a support.
@@codys7436 That's because mages are being pushed out of mid. They are a dying breed.
"we have never had a melee adc in bot lane" pre-rework morde: am i a joke to you :(
I still play Morde in the bot lane
A friend of mine got to very high elo on going Master Yi adc! (Granted, I was going Taric too)
Yasuo:
@@gabrieljoseozanan6989 yasuo is doable as adc
I've seen some yasuo perfoming good as ADC also
As I've improved as an ADC main, the main thing I've noticed his that many people really don't play the role like it is now, they play it how it used to be. In old league where the idea of ADC first developed everything was pretty much an immobile stat stick so being ranged was a much more impactful since you could actually orb walk most other champs. Now there's a lot more to worry about so building up better game sense for ability cool downs and timings and combining that with clean micro is the key to doing well as an ADC. The main thing is that unless you are playing a hyperscaler, you have to rely on your team more than ADCs used to, when you accept this and play around them like tools you'll improve a lot. They don't even need to be feed or anything to give you the opportunity to get impactful damage and kills if you play around CC and engage correctly. Unless they have a fed Yone of course then just FF because you're already dead.
The problem is that when you get behind as adc you are useless bc you have no cc (which doesn’t scale) and you need your items but you aren’t rewarded for getting ahead any more than top or mid and maybe even less
Getting a lead as a Marksman just isn't as gratifying as it is for Mid, Top or Jungle. It takes a long time before you really feel any difference, and by the time you do, the game is about to end. And it wouldn't be a problem if other types of champions were becoming popular in Botlane... if Marksmen were viable anywhere else. But if you want to play Marksman, it's usually bot or bust.
Dude, dont forget that if you get ahead botlane you free up ur support to help the rest of the team wile xou scale, so your team can hold the enemys at bay till u can kill the with ease.
One the other hand the enemys have 2 players who are behind and will take longer to help theyr team. An leona on the winning team is much more opresiv than a leona on a losing team. Damadge Support like zyra or enchanters like lulu scale realy good with items. And if they dont get them, they are way less usfull.
have u ever played kaisa jinx or tristana?
A yes the fun kallista top yes very fun
you might be a 12/0/3 ADC at 20 minutes .. if you meet Morde or another top laner who is 1/3/2 .. you are un able to 1v1 him .. the end . A losing top laner and easily brick a fed adc .
@@darkki94 hard capp
ADCs are the enbodiment of the problem that Solo Q has: Team play its a must. Even if you can technically carry alone, without a team you are basically useless.
Also, on the support part... Rakan showed you cant do a jack of all trades master of none on this role. On the other hand Pike taught us that you cant simply put the best parts of 2 roles, tanks CC and assasins instant burst, on a kit making him "support" (member when everyone picked him for the mid lane?) and also completely counter the best part of enchanters with an execution. Yumi taught us that you cant simply overtune an untargetable hyper buffing parasite and finally Rell its the prime example of "shoe horned healing because... support"
THIS
The biggest problem of this game is that everyone centers around themselves, when it's a fucking TEAM based game. To me is so funny when I see an streamer saying he did a "1v9" when his lulu support saved his ass, his toplaner did the engage, etc. Without team we are fuckong garbage. At the end of the day, the team with more coordination and communication wins
as a rell main that borders on one tricked. I completely agree with the pointless healing. Like looking at her story she just screams Top lane but nope support for no reason.
1:32 seeing tryd ditch that wave and krugs was a heartattack
I've had a weird and stupid idea that could maybe shake up the meta. Having top laners and adcs switch. so you'd have adcs in a solo lane and top laners would be with a support or another top laner. Top laners synergies well with each other and supports in the early game, even more so than adcs synergies with supports. this could help adcs achieve higher levels quicker allowing them to scale faster. As I said it's a weird and stupid idea but if we could spread it and have it tested out we might find more options to make the game flow better, plus it'd be a cool shake up to the meta. Just imagine how terrifying something like sett and leona would be to fight as a mostly melee lane
I take breaks from League to play Dota once in a while and the sheer variety of the " carry " role is so refreshing, right from the lane they start in to the kind of characters played in that capacity. There's literally no restriction to the kind of character that can be played as a carry and that's something that's super fun to experience. The closest we got to this in LoL was when Garen Yuumi was a thing in bot and the smite midlane funnel meta existed.
Because LoL's developers pretty much helped creating the current stiff "Top/Mid/Jungle/Bot" of LoL. Dota 2's roles are far more diverse, and Dota 2 actually has a competent balance team with a good balance philosophy.
I love the adc role. My only complaint is full tanks one shot me all while I’m cc’ed. I don’t mind anybody else blowing me up because at least they built some damage but when a tank does it I just feel like the only agency I have is staying alive in the back line and baiting cool downs and gap closers. I just wish they gave Lucian his slow removal on E again because of all the slows in the game but a high elo streamer said it best. ADC is just a survivor horror game and the objective is stay alive and do damage if possible
Why would i play a role that spend 70% of the game afk farming and still can get one shoot by a leblanc or vladmir when i can just play ornn or shen and never die
Afk farming 70% of the time in order to buy offensive items mainly, so of course they would still be one shot
@@Pistachio2410 I think the point is its not fun or engaging in adc gameplay. They are powerful yes but in high elo people that can actually 1v9 as them are automatically gods every time and I have mad respect for them.
Honestly i rather sacrifice a little bit of damage for a decent survivability
@@bobbobobob9054 too bad there is no survivability option for ADCs. Mages and Assassins build Zhonyas because of course they do, but its hella gold inefficient to build Zhonyas on an ADC. And GA is dogshit because you get oneshot, wait 5 seconds for the animation to finish only to get oneshot a second time.
@@bobbobobob9054 then you won't deal nearly as much damage, because solo laners are guaranteed to be richer/have more items than you (season 11 kekw)
Say we (adcs) go other lanes... We'd be either 1) Chewed out by top, 2) Get chewed out by midlane or 3) Become an ATM that's easily accessible by the assassin midlane/mage midlane.
There's no winning if ADC's leave the botlane.
Not really, in fact, it's not ADCs that are shit, it's other lanes that are too broken
The exp diff creates a huge gap between the power level of a Botlaner and a toplaner, as much as the items of bruisers, assassins, tanks and mages are absurdly overloaded, they can still get stomped by a assassin/adc hybrid. Which brings to the point that games simply end too fast.
I would nerf exp to other lanes and make ADCs and Supports be at max 1, 1.5 or 2 levels behind as opposed to the 3-4 that happens today, that should make games last longer and be more tactical as opposed to being super early-skirmish focused
trist mid and lucian senna mid are the most cancerous midlaners , just ask any katarina qiyana akali leblanc mains
As a support main i like ADCs, they are my babies. I protect them till they get the penta, heck, they have have an adolescence where they complain u don't "get" them when they decide to 1vs3 the enemy jungle.
As a parent of lots of little adcs... i can apreciate the ones that know you love them and value your help, forget the spoiled ones and pat the back of those who are really trying. The meta is not ADC friendly and still, they keep trying lasthit those canons and win trades.
True support mains that use actual supports and tend to stay by the ADC are my heroes and I thank everyone of them for their selflessness when I get one of those.
Just realized that a large focus on marksmen as a class is about the adc position in general, as talking about one normally tailors in the other.
Its the issue that many people do like playing this marksmen playstyle, but cant bring them into other lanes. Where all other classes have leeway in comparison, such as Morgana and Nautilus being pushed into jg as well as still remaining good supports. Even when midlane assassins or mages feel underwhelming at times, most of them can be brought top or possibly other places where they can express their strengths. Jinx, Sivir, Twitch, and other marksmen dont have anywhere else to go other than bot lane. Sure there are specialy tailored marksmen for each role, but the majority are designed to be highly protected damage batteries; and if you are a fan of those marksmen, you better be sure to become good acquaintances with that bottom track. As a fan of those marksmen cant bring them into other lanes without severe consequences. (Even if you do like those other marksmen in other positions, they are also normally locked into those specific roles as well. Having their own consequences of you being them anywhere else. And having their own limitations to prevent them from being too oppressive.)
Traditionally, marksmen are best when protected by teammates, so taking a solo lane is a great risk without an innate movement ability in the base kit. Support and jg are also awkward as marksmen aren't normally able to engage or peel for a teammate as well as practically any other class. In the end all the other lanes/positions want champions that have hard cc, early game carry potential, or someone that can survive alone until late game; all of which marksmen aren't designed to have. A good example is the enemy Kayle, Veigar, or Nasus can be 1000 - 3000 gold behind their opponent at 30-40 minutes and can still out put good damage through the scaling capabilities in their kits shoaring up that gold lost. And they would be nigh-unstoppable if ahead at that time. Adcs in comparison are the most impacted in that scenario due from being super item reliant, being the sole source of scaling for themselves. One that is ahead still need to play scared as well in that point in the game as always.
I think riot will try to keep adc very marksmen focused, as moving it away any farther can alienate most players of the class from the meta/game. And by the math, presumably a 7th of all league players would need to give up their main role in marksmen to play something that has more agency in games.
In a more recent example in history: Samira was nerfed heavily for having too much agency on her own, now shes been nerfed to obey the cruel adc reality of scaling and relying on items like all others in her class.
Having a champion that dominates early and scales extremely well into late is way too overpowered. ... but then again most other classes have those champions that do both already. Some good mages easily fill the bot lane role already, helping to effecrively end the mid game before the enemy adc has time to scale. It doesn't feel fair to be a marksmen when you are easily and effectively replaceable by almost anyone; as other classes have it way better in terms of consistent agency throughout the game and in having a much more diverse array of items to build into. But that is the tradeoff for always being relatively safe due to range I guess. You can try to "fix" botlane by diversifying and making other classes the main focus down there; but that just sidesteps the marksmen issues and wipes the class under the rug. In this meta, replacing a dmg battery with someone that has cc and very good base damage by themselves is much more appealing due to agency purposes. And just buffing the marksmen items just buffs other melee champions that build those items as well, throwing the meta out of wack across other lanes. Honesty if they made proper crit items with resistances, I think it would be a safe decision that would help marksmen feel much better in this game state.
In the end what I'm trying to say is the discussion should not only be about how to diversify and alter the bottom lane carries; but also trying to figure out how the majority of the marksman class can either be brought into other positions effectively or be given more agency without breaking the game; as kicking them out of bot would leave a good number of them homeless, and most games are still currently being decided by all other lanes to the point of where you only carry as adc when your team's competence let's you and needs you for the damage.
"When everyone is super, then no one is"
-Syndrome "The Incredibles"
The amount of time a bot diff has resulted in a loss is astounding.
That is a really funny part. It's like yasuos.
When your botlane wins, they are somehow unable to carry, but when the enemy adc gets 20 cs ahead, they stomp the whole game as it is.
Rate is 100% in my games, Bot ALWAYS gets gapped hard, even if it's favored matchup and ally Jungler helps the lane and enemy one does not
@@Wavinto personally I won’t gank bot unless it’s a perfect setup.
Top and mid are far more important in todays meta.
If you are behind i’m likely to just add a third kill, if you are ahead… well you don’t really need me.
If their jungler is camping bot i’ll counter gank but in reality it’s more beneficial to just take all his camps while he camps bot.
@@barnykirashi most games when my shit gets ruined is by a fed midlaner or top
The weird thing is, it isn't the enemy bot lane that tends to be the problem. It's the enemy jungle or mid roaming bot and claiming that free 300+G and the enemy bot escaping. There is the occasion where a bot is absurdly fed but it's usually the former two when it comes to bot diff.
"in no universe does a 3 item ADC stand a chance against a 3 item yasuo, it's not gonna happen."
Me, who plays Xayah mid (w/ Kraken Slayer, LDR, Rav Hydra first three items): lmaoooooooooooooo hold my dragon soul real quick.
Solo lane exp is op. I main senna adc and whenever I get autofilled top I pick her and feel way stronger 😬. Ppl soft int cause they think I’m troll picking though.
i have to try that shit lmao
Excited for this one! Went back to ADC for a few games bc ez is meta rn, dropped out of gold 3 bc of it and went back to support lmao feels like adc has almost no impact bc it’s a selfish role that doesn’t help the team besides outputting dmg, whereas if I play a support at least I’m still useful regardless if im 0/10 or 10/0.
:/ u're not gonna win or carry as adc by going back for a 'few games' lol. But i do agree 0/10 supps can be a lot more useful than 0/10 adc. That said if an adc is dying 10 times he prolly doesnt play adc or just aint good. The punishment for a falling back adc is just harsher cause dps is all they offer whether it be to fights or objectives.
How i love that you started the video for my main role with a song from my most favourite video game series :3
I've played Seraphine botlane for quite a while, and the experience that I got, I can say the following: ADCs are somewhat of a dying role, that stays alive because of their synergies with Supports. Botlane is very effective with champions that scale hard and can synergize with someone else, but not all supports are mentally prepared for the changes caused by playing around your teammate's cooldowns instead of assuming they can just DPS.
Once that cultural mind block is removed, things will change, a lot.
My biggest issue with marksmen is that in the early game they made it so that you have to rely on your support to survive. That's why if Supports doesn't sacrifice themselves they are more likely to escape than you. They have self peel, cc and they also can build defensive items.
"all marksmen typically played in the botlane"
varus, tristana, lucian, kalista, draven, kog and vayne would like to chat with you
Kalista can't solo lane though, and the other champs are mostly niche picks besides Tristana and Lucian who got popular only recently so marksmen indeed are tipically played in botlane, to be fair
@@ncrranger6327 Kalista was played in very high MMR as a toplaner and she had to be nerfed because of how miserable fighting her was for melee champs .
BrokenBlade played her tons and tons on and off stream .
All fairness, whenever Kog solos, it's usually his mage build rather than his marksman build.
As an adc main.. I can tell you, it’s satisfying to carry as an adc but those games are so rare it’s really not worth it for the 1 million times you’ll be one shot before you can blink.
I I really fucking hate Riot man
I think what would benefit the role is a jungler-like item. Something that they can buy at the start that is allowed only for the adc role only and that will improve over time as they kill minions. Having that as an option I think would improve their mid-game. Perhaps something that links you to your support and gives the adc a bonus while they are with them.
Cull is supposed to do that for marksmen but the risk is so high for 2v2 fights that few adc risk taking it as a start item
I always feel bad whenever I one shot adc or run them over with a huge tank, adc has had so much happen to them I can’t imagine what it would be like to be an adc main rn since it’s definitely a lot harder in solo q to survive because of your team
masochism and depression of the highest form
ADCs are more reliant on their supp. If the support is awful it’s a complete loss, no matter how good the adc is. Being a support main, if you have an awful adc you can either carry lane and allow them room to breathe in fights or just focus on a different carry. That’s why the early game adcs are so good, you don’t have to wait in order for them to be useful whereas a jinx is going to take a bit to get them rolling
This is very fucking true. Just give me a good fucking support *p l e a s e*
As a support main my biggest issue is getting an adc who understands my abilities, and doesn’t get too aggressive and then blame me when they kamakaze and expect me to run in and die to the enemy adc/supp/jung and give them a double.
@@codys7436 I have the exact opposite problem I main xayah and want enemies to come to me so my featgers can be used but I always get the "I need my warding item so I am going to rush in like a dumbass and get chunked to half so I can get the gold" supports. Then get flamed for not going all in with them, it really sucks.
I always felt like having a bruiser on bot turns out to be way more useful than a ADC
Thanks for giving me something to watch while I have lunch :3
Hope you enjoyed your meal!
in the ezreal clip he whiffed 90 percent of his skillshots lol
Me reading the title: Well it dies the quickest so yeah!
The way ADC's survive is by Lifesteal, its the only mechanic for them that makes them "tanky". That is why Immortal Shieldbow is very good, as its proc gives an incredible amount of lifesteal, add in crits and its chunks of HP being healed back. Yes grievous wounds can slow that down, but if you build a full true "re-generator" you can overcome the 60% heal cut by just having so much lifesteal it won't matter (Immortal/BT/BTORK/Sangune blade ect).
Yes a team can work just fine without an ADC, HOWEVER the team does need to pay attention to their damage output (damage type). A team of full 5 AP/Magic damage champions, can be mostly shut out in damage by the opposing tank. Same applies to the reverse of being full AD and enemy just stacking armor and laughing at your pitiful damage (AD mids are the sol cause of this issue). A team must have a balance of damage outputs, that is why the ADC is usually the teams source of AD damage, even if the whole team is AP, that ADC will force the enemy tank to build at least some armor, meaning one less MR item he can have.
Recently had a game with this very "problem", 4 AP champs and I took Caitlyn. Being the only source of AD damage I decided to do full leathality cait rather then traditional crit (I still had some crit, but not full on). With Dark Harvest I was chunking the enemy every shot, and blowing them up, since regardless of any armor they might have built, my pen was too high. Build was (Eclipse, Berzerker, Collector, Mortal Reminder, Sangune Blade and IE) it was a slight hybrid between full on Leathality, and Crit/Regen, and needless to say, it was broken as fuck.
Vars' call to action at the end takes me back to ye olde days of yore, when bot lane was 2 bruisers.
Real OGs remember things like Garen bot and Blitz/Alistar lanes
It'd better have the word "latter" or I ain't watching
jk, one of the best channels I've seen in a while, keep it going man
HEY I CANT HELP IT T_T What other word am I supposed to use ;~;
A dying class? As in, a class made to die?
Yes
I had a hard time watching this as an ADC main. I’m so protective of the role and I have grown to love every designated ADC (minus Kai’Sa). But thanks for making this video. It was necessary to hear this for me.
Adc role is only fun when the game is slow paced. I personally feel ez is overrated 😔
ADC is tons of fun if youre allowed to scale into late game. Jinx early sucks ass but lategame? Dealing more damage than the jungler in the first 8 minutes in a singular team fight? Oof thats nice. Or Jhin, setting up and then executing someone perfectly with a 900dmg crit fourth shot is amazing.
But these days its not about scaling into lategame, its about getting one kill in the first minutes as an assassin and then ending the game yourself since you have no counterplay.
@@tatzecom that's true, ADC is fun when you have items (Late game). Or if your playing an assassin adc that can one shot enemy midlaner before they can one-shot you🤭. Or if your tristana.
Ez is popular because he’s not your typical adc that relies on auto-attacks. And dont forget the free flash too every 13 seconds.
bro u serious? when i get adc autofilled, i literally tell my supports to go all in if either one of our cc lands and we even go all in even in level 1 and trust me, i got a lot of early kills this ways and can scale well into late game, but beware of their junglers, so always ward bushes
@@betababy8545 true, i played jax today and he just E flash away from me making me unable to chase with my Q
A part of me always felt it would be better if Riot made ADC's better in the early game and weaker in the late game to make them more independent and less high-risk-high-reward
This makes me sad, I love watching Rav completely melt people as Ashe and Caitlyn.
The new wave of marksmen and new builds and buffs in the current season (lethality Sivir and Varus, AP Twich, Kog'maw and Varus, collector being a thing, etc.) made me understand the situation
Marksmen are not dead, but most of them are incredibly behind with times and their presence and players drags the entire class to being what it is now
ADCs needs a big shake like the tanks, mages and assassins seasonal reworks
Getting to my full build as an ADC main in the past season which was ( Jhin with HoB + 1 rapidfire cannon + swiftness boot + 3 IE + optional item ) was more rewarding, easier to snowball, I was getting my first fat power spike after the first IE in 15 min, now in this season I'm playing Jhin with DH and I can do half of my previous damage after 25 min with at least FOUR items, such fun times I had when my AD was 1150 in the late game and now I cant remember the last time I played summoner rift because as long as I cant stack 3 IE on my Jhin then the game lost its meaning for me, and its actually funny because I was planning on working hard in ranked with the new season after Destiny 2 went to shit.
Now I just noticed that I started to hate games in general, every franchise I adored killed it self, like OW, and Destiny, even Dark Souls ended, and at least to me league's summoners rift is unplayable now, I hate getting flamed for no reason so I hated playing jungle, mid and top are always fought over and if I failed at my role my team be like "rep top so trash im better than you kys", adc got to the worst era of its time as all I can do is pray that khazix, talon, zed, akali, rengar, etc, aren't coming to finish me with 2 AAs, and since i was good enough as an ADC to carry myself and even win sometimes with my supp afk from the start of the match, as a support I can't cover up for a bad ADC so I end up with 1/8/23 and get hard flamed smh...
In my opinion, this season and the item changes were a big mistake, not just crit modifier, but some items are too broken especially on some champs, sorry this came out longer than expected but I wanted to vent out
"Bot lane is meant for Adc"
The auto filled Yasou main on my team:
*I don't think so*
I mean, he is an attack damage (with crit and attack speed as well) carry technically....
Riot seems to agree
Yasuo is also an ADC. ADC means attack damage carry. Yasuo deal attack damage that can carry games in late game.
perfectly designed: bard
his playstyle is incredibly unique and his e and r allow so much creativity and skill expression without bard feeling unrewarding to play or unfair to play against
Welp, the last time they tried bringin something that wasn't a marksman to the botlane, the mordekaisening happened
No matter how well bot lane does, it just takes top or mid to be fed as hell to make bot lane cease to exist. And while I appreciate character variety in lanes, strong poke characters being considered "support" causes 1 big issue. Traditional tank/enchanter supports also matter a lot less now since there are champs who can heal, shield, and assassinate, sometimes all at the same time. As a Braum main, I always feel like I will never matter as long as I can't deal massive amounts of damage. No matter how much I um, protect my team lol.
IF you somehow end up having 3 items by the mid game (literally never happens, takes way too much gold), you can totally carry on most traditional crit marksmen. kraken + zeal item + IE is super powerful, you could be able to take down any of the mentioned three item opponents (darius, camille, yas... etc)
Bull crap a 3 item adc can beat a Darius with deadmans stridebreaker and steraks even if you dash away the mfer can still catch and dunk you
@@intoHeck1964 I guess, but you should still be able to kite him out play jinx or Ashe. Also Tristana should be able to just out dps, and she has jump which would reset off bomb proc. But you pretty much have to play perfectly, so in most cases the Darius should win I guess
Till season 10, adc was an imp role and had more dmg agency (required 4 items and had 200% crit dmg), but now It's a dying role
it's been dieing since S4. Assassins became op so they buffed marksman and they started going IE first over BT first and then adc's became op though it still didn't really feel the best for bot laners because people were playing adc's mid top and jungle with more impact so though adc's were good it still didn't feel the best bot lane because everyone was playing them. Then they buffed tank items and adc's became shit again and then assasins found they could build tank items and they became even worse. There were brief moments where adc's were decent but they were always short lived. Hell even in S7 ADC's were only op IF your support was an enchanter and built Ardent Censor which if you were below diamond meant never and everyone believed adc's were op which they were above diamond but not in gold and plat where every single game you had 2 mages bot and an average of 4-6 assassins every game and sometimes a couple tanks. Which tanks were still op if your support wasn't building ardent censor which is what gave the power to live and do enough damage to kill tanks and assassins were still op if your support wasn't an enchanter becuase they were what kept the adc's alive as well. Then S8 was a joke and S10 was absolute shit I don't remember S9 but ADC's have been shit most the time for 7 years and I kid you not it was ardent censor meta for months and I was playing support at the time and in plat 2 more than halfway through people still didn't know it was ardent censor meta and I know that because I would ping it and say we win fights now and then people would question and then you would 2v3 and then everyone on both sides would be in awe in how an adc just shit on everyone and then they would forget that I pinged ardent censor and told them that they were going to shit on everyone. So ADC's are shit most the time and below Diamond they are shit and feel bad to play even more of the time. In fact right now ADC's feel better for me to play than they have for a long long time and they still feel bad because you have to watch supports drool on themselves and you can't make plays yourself without getting TP'ed and if you have a good support and you're bot gapping them that means there's a good chance the rest of your team is shit because all the MMR for your team went to you and your support. So now you have lane control but you can't push or do anything with your lead without 5 people instant killing you.
@@MarsarahCheetos man, u need a break from adc.
@@Archangel-sx2wl thats how it is, don't blame him
Quick solution to this, give almost all (you know the ones that shouldn't get this) ADCs 40-100% more range, but make attacks with the bonus range transform (similar to Samira/Kayle autos where they have 2 different forms) - when made within the bonus range they act like skillshots, blockable and dodgeable especially at max range as well as reduce total attack speed by a percentage. The idea behind this, is both to give reason for tanks to exist since they can block the autos and protect the backline as well as to give marksmen a place to exist; in lane with vision they are a force to be reckoned with, able to auto you long before you're in range, however the moment they're in jungle, don't have vision or get ambushed (from bush or with invis/camo/multiple dashes/a shitton of MS) they get one-shot like the glass cannons they are - also you can tone-down their escape/movement tools because it's no longer as neccessary. This allows them to have a slightly less bullshit laning phase since they have the option to stand further back (although to reliably CS or cause maximum dps you'd want to be within their current range) and a better space in late-game teamfights without completely removing their specialisation or weakness.
When a class/character fails in a team-based game, it's better to buff their strengths than remove their weaknesses.
Hey Vars, I have some suggestions of possible interesting video topics:
"Are anti-assassin mages still a thing?"
"Why are there too few Wardens (defensive tanks) compared to Vanguards (offensive tanks)"
"A look back at the Juggernaut rework" or "Why are juggernauts the most reworked class?"
Question is a bit misleading. I do think ranged ADCs are necessary due to the simple fact their method of kiting harassment is extremely valuable for taking advantage of whiffs and important enemy CDs. However I don't think ADC bot is necessary, which is pretty much what the whole vid suggests. Honestly the primary reason why marksman bot is still a thing is because that is still the safest lane for the vast majority of marksman. Varus, Ashe, Kog'Maw, Miss Fortune, etc. can still struggle in the jungle simply due to the concept of counterjungling. One of the great benefits for marksman is the ability to very safely CS after all. Jungling is just naturally more tedious cause the monsters always strike back.
Honestly the only thing that can change the entire lane dynamics is for an abusable exploit to dominate in the bot lane that completely crushes the ADC/Support trend. This would be enough to change all lanes in general due to how integral marksman end up being. When I say abusable, I mean something as broken and overbearing as AP Master Yi and Tank Fizz were historically. It can't just be some one-off weird thing you try.
There are a couple combinations that could be possible to trigger this. I've known Assassin Jarvan Bot to be very polarizing due to his bizarrely high engage range allowing him to zone ADCs to absurd levels. Rengar + Ivern is also something that can eliminate the range advantage of marksman by constantly providing easily accessible gap closers. In fact, there are many options that theoretically eliminate the marksman way too easily. The challenge with these implementations have always been the enemy support though.
Due to how diverse the support role is, there isn't a universal threat to the support class as a whole. So many of the anti-marksman bot combinations can get shut down by a support that can handle that scenario. Assassin Jarvan can get disrupted by Poppy and Nautilus quite easily. Rengar can get cucked by Lulu pretty easily. It's also harder to do when the supports throw exhaust in the mix. Thus the optimal bot buster would have to consider the entire myriad of supports as well. Put simply, access to elimination of the marksman should be available regardless of whoever the support is. Something like Nocturne + Galio would be an example of that, though I don't know how that would perform.
That aside, special marksman would need to exist in other lanes. Ranged top is a good place to abuse this like with Vayne, Teemo, and Quinn. As annoying as it is, ranged top can really disrupt the laning of common toplaners. The fact that it is annoying and hard to deal with is the point though since that proves it is viable. Obviously all the marksman junglers can also apply here like Twitch, Graves, and Kindred. The rare Kayle Mid/Top could also be doable as a replacement as, despite having AP in her kit, she still definitely has marksman grade DPS. Though there is always a threat when it comes to marksman in lanes other than bot, that is swapping and countering.
The threat of swapping lanes means that the combination of your bot buster team must always be better than their swapping arrangements. In other words, the ranged top laner might need to deal with the enemy ADC & Support. The bot buster might need to actually deal with a top laner in the bot lane. Something like Darius, Renekton, and Illaoi could be tricky to deal with. Hell even a disaster situation like the ranged top laner is facing off the enemy ADC solo cause the ADC is someone like Lucian and the bot laner buster actually need to deal with the Top Laner + Support. Imagine Assassin Jarvan trying to face off Renekton and Nautilus.
There are a lot of hurdles, and with good luck, you could possibly bamboozle an enemy team with a marksman not being in the bot lane. However, all these hurdles typically equate to lower winrates for these wonky strategies and that leaves less of an incentive to even attempt it at all. If anything, draft pick by nature is contrary to this flexibility in general. Due to the limitations of marksman being in other roles, it just becomes way more obvious when you are trying to break the meta. Pulling off this wonky stuff successfully and consistently is a job for blind pick heroes.
Blind pick, you say... Had a game where three of us locked in supports, just to realise, what the hell we are doing. Then the two other players locked in junglers... Yuumi convinced the Yi to go bot with her. I Leonad a mid... you read that right. Soraka went top. Rengar jungled. We won hard. Don't question it. Enemy must have been idiots. This is a shit team comp. We shouldn't have won.
Honorable mention to Azir which is basically an AP Marksmen
Which is why he's getting nerfed so often, since league players have the toxic notion that a "carry" is a champ which shoots autoattacks from range. Dota 2, for example, has plenty of meelee carries. Carries should be a separate class and include champs like Fiora, Jax, Kassadin, Jinx, etc. They all deserve the same carry potential.
@@constantinvalidol5472 no the reason he is nerfed so much is soley because of pro play. In soloq he is a garbage pick, requiring too much effort to play at even an average level.
Vars even made an entire video on him
that tryndamere who went past that BIG minion wave gave me a stroke
No; the role that's dying is Mages. In pro level play you're seeing *double* ADC more and more [Tristana is virtually pick or ban status...]; often in midlane; as well as things like Renekton. In soloQ assassins; BECAUSE Assassins are the counter to ADC's.
Also Quinn is mostly played toplane as well and hardly ever bot.
As for traditional ADC's; it's because the new ones basically obsolete them.
ADC's carry the game, but also need to be protected to carry. They're the glass cannon. Also; they'll never be replaced by melees; since they're the primary tower-killers and seigers.
'In no world does a 3-item Ashe/Ezreal stand a chance against a 3-item Darius' - No; Ashe and Ez in particular just kites Darius to death.
“apart from kindred and corki all marksmen are usually played in the botlane”
I think Azir and Quinn are considered marksmen and not played in bot.
Since when is azir considered a marksman
@@darkomihajlovski3135 he is considered as a mage/marksmen on the shop
@@ibrahimcandogan7124 i always hear people call him a control mage but never a marskaman geus that explains why ive seen azirs with nashors tooth
For me it’s a 50/50. ADC’s can suck if you’re targeted the whole game. That’s the point of League. ADC’s deals the most damage in a short amount of time, therefore they are targeted the most. Some people will argue supports are targeted more, but supports can handle themselves while an ADC’s can”t especially if you’re up against a butt ton of CC champions. I don’t think that the role is dying, rather than the lane itself since most ADC’s are centered around doing AA and just leave it at that. Yeah Jhin exists, but it’s not like Riot will do the same exact thing again and again.
Also one of their advantages is suppose to be their range but with all the mobility introduced through items and new champs, that becomes a non factor. And adc only wins 1v1 if they are really fed or are just insanely better than their opponent.
Not if youre an enchanter specially soraka
@@checkthebush6500 Funnily enough people go after Tankrakas too. No one expects the Tankraka.
While I enjoy playing ADC, in a lot of games I've played where a team forgot to pick one it wasn't that big of a deal tbh. In my experience, the tank can supplement the damage in the late-game and 2 good supports can give an adc and support a hard time in the early/mid-game
Pretty great video as always.
I love this type of explanation from all the sides of the game. What has happen before, what did it lead to, and how other classes affected this role as well.
Nice job!
Well because everyone can 1 shot you, yes you could assume this is a dying role.
Ezreal is good, he's like a mage, but can rely on his basic attack.
like a mage but no wave clear that's his biggest problem imo.
As a rakan main after I get my boots I just roam top to snow ball the game. Reality is there is little point to snowballing a class cannon when you can snow ball a tank to steam roll your enemy
One thing about adcs back then is that they were the only reliable way to take down turrets, back then mages didn't do magic damage to turrets, so I think when Riot changed that it stopped adcs to be so valuable
I saw a "meme" among toplane twitter about shieldbow giving more shield than sterak's btw.
One thing you might’ve overlooked is objective pressure. ADCs do wonders for clearing towers, Baron, and Elder Dragon much faster and therefore safer, requiring less sustained map control and team pressure than would otherwise be necessary.
Does this override any of the points you made? Absolutely not. And honestly, in Satan’s meta with Viego, Yone, and Yasuo in literally every game, objective clearing is even less ADC-exclusive than before. So yeah. Doesn’t really matter that much.
mages are better at taking towers and you can't crit on them
I would like to say i appreciate your channel so much ! :) Your video topic are always interesting, really fun to watch and how you discuss about it sound really professional. Keep up the good work