how to verify timing on your LS powered car
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- this is something i screwed up many times and finally figured it out today start to finish problem solving then marking balancer on two motors and setting offset with a light on my truck
Hey Matt, instead of measuring, you can lay a piece of paper over, transfer the dots, and fold the paper dot to dot to get half way point. Absolutely great tech tip. Who knew???
I just use a screw driver too...It's worked for over 40 years for me mate...No need to make stuff more difficult I recon.
nobody else caught him saying " its funny to be me, and have no brains!!!" lol, i cant even watch this video to the end seriously now lol. subbed
love the content , been working on cars since 1980 , stili learning stuff wtg ,I'm building a 84 C10 2wdr and a 92 S10 4x4 /2wd v8 swap
old school but the way I did that before owning calipers and calculator was. wrap a piece of paper around balancer where marks are. transfer marks on paper. fold in half so marks on paper touch. fold is exactly half way between marks. lay paper back on balancer and mark TDC. no math or special tools required.
I just wish I knew all about tuning fuel injection as you do. Like your videos.
Common. Alot of people ruin valves when they forget to take the rockers off and run a piston stop in and turn the motor over. Glad you caught it.
After watching the entire video, whenever you are setting your timing offset in your ECU you need to check it at 4000~ rpm also. It will typically change with engine speed. Also your marks are probably not as accurate as you think. The width of the marks you're making could be 2 degrees. And using the caliper to find the median between your two marks is also not that accurate as another post said. You may have really been 0.5 deg off not 5.5, with all the tolerance stackup and 'sloppiness" lol. Just my $0.02, carry on. Like the vids
yeah and as always i like to mention, timing is just a number, the motors are all ballpark and when i tune these cars and all others i move the ignition around while tuning and see what makes the best power, in a risk reward setup, and what they like is what they like, how some seem to want more or less will more than likely be a result of many things, including this 8deg positive or minus offset people seem to run into, this is just a way to check it if you think your shit is reallllly off.
I have setup a Megasquirt on a single cylinder motorcycle engine before (Honda CRF150R), I did the crank wheel offset by measurement, no timing light required.
The motorcycle had a TDC mark but the pickup for the ignition was not aligned or associated to this mark, the mark was purely for setting the cam timing and using timing lights. The ignition was triggered by raised section of the flywheel.
What I did was, I measured the distance between the ignition pickup trigger and the TDC mark in millimetres around the circumference of the flywheel and then calculated how many degrees that was (measure circumference and divide by 360 for how many millimetres per degree). In my case it was 45 degrees.
Really like this style of video. Very detailed compared to your usual videos. Awesome as always though.
that is what people are asking for, the nitty gritty and the stupid and shitty
throw the piston stop in the scrap bin and get a piece of Johnson grass... watch the intake valve open and close, then put the grass in the hole and turn crank very slowly until the piston stops pushing the grass up, you are there
Dude! This was a great vid! I'm not timing anything for now but I like knowing that now I know!!! Thanks for the upload.
Awesome job showing the misunderstand and how to correct it. Also, I'm would really like one of your "Sloppy Mechanics" banners for my shop. Would you please give us the info where to get one. Thanks again for all you share with us.
just found your channel 2 days ago and already enjoying the chevy build a lot! thats an awesome build you got going there :)
thanks, there is 10 years of videos on here for lots of other shit dont get lost
yea no doubt. lol considering im thinking of doing some power mods to my suburban, i kinda have a preference for this build tho. ;) i did notice the nearly 1500 others. i may check some but likely not many. (just being honest lol)
Thanks for the education. Every day is a school day.
P. :D
Sloppy - if I'm not mistaken most Piston stops don't thread into the chamber that far. Most just thread to the edge of the chamber like a spark plug and then there's a smaller diameter threaded rod in the middle that is screwed into chamber for positive stop! And clears valve. Prolly why nobody mentioned deactivating rockers!
yeah you're correct my friend mike was saying the same thing, as his double threader didnt hit
+
+Sloppy Mechanics Gut an old spark plug, cut off electrode/break off porcelain, drill through the center. Then use a long straight section of coat hanger wire through the drilled hole. Thread it into the hole drop the wire in and rotate the motor. Mark the highest position of the wire, that is TDC, now mark your balancer. A piston stop will stop the piston however deep you run it into the chamber, and as you found out, are prone to interfering with valves, where the thin wire through an old spark plug will clear the valves and moves freely.
Revco 138 I use a straw from a drink to find TDC. Mark highest mark on straw and watch the valves.
Notification says new sloppy vid. Gotta watch.
So glad I saw this. Like all the others
Why don't you use a wire or a screwdriver plunging in the cylinder to find tdc ?
It's way more accurate than this piston stop wich will stop the piston at different places if you screw it more or less.
Different position each end. It only affects how wide between the marks. Still accurate if you split the difference, no matter how far you screw it in.
How do you find the tdc with a piston stop ?
It stops the piston some degrees before it reaches tdc both ways. The middle of those two measurements is dead on tdc
made a piston stop using the metal housing of an old spark plug destroy the porcelain break off the electrode use a 3/8 tap to make threads in the metal jacket cut a piece of reddi rod to length & screw it into the jacket make sure to round off the end that contacts the piston there is your piston stop if I add up the time & gas to go to the part store I saved a bunch.It took about a 1/2 hr. to make.Also made a tdc on compression indicator from a spark plug using a $2 dog whistle remove the electrode & open up the bottom of spark plug leave upper porcelain intact unscrew the contact at the top attach the whistle with a piece of fuel line to the porc.install when you come up on comp whistle blows until ex v. starts to open easy one man operation
sounds like alo t of work when a regular piston stop is 8$ on amazon
I wouldn’t fret the valve due to the piston stop being brass. It gave which is good and the cut it sharp. I don’t see it hurting the seat of the valve jmo
That was fantastic!!
Now to buy a car with an LS 🤔
Now ya just gotta remember to tighten the rockers on the 4.8 back up... Cus that's gonna piss you off later.
hahah i did, and put the cover back on
Excellent video Matt, thanks for going to the trouble to video this stuff for us!!
Some of the guys making comments here need to go back to school or go period. For you idiots that don't know better there is several degrees of crankshaft rotation while the piston is dead still at top dead center soooo you have to use a piston stop like Matt is doing or your timing marks are off PERIOD! You even have to use a piston stop with the head off. If you have one put a dial indicator on top of piston and rotate crank and see just how many degrees rotation you have and the piston not moving. this is why you want as long a rod you can put in a racecar engine to park the piston at top dead as long as possible, this increases combustion pressure thus power.
I was working on one. same thing. couldn't get a piston stop to work. I ended up using a dial indicator with a Tig filler wire on the end. it worked like night and day. used some wire around a block and also used a white paint pen.
Shorter stroke of the 4.8 might come into play too with the valve opening/closing points in relation to the piston. Also when you are measuring between the 2 points you are going in a straight line, not a radiused line. So your measurements are going to be short I'd think? You'd need to get some string/wire or something the same contour as the crank pulley. Or use the degree wheel. Would be pretty odd if the factory timing was off 5.5*.
If you're really that worried about it just measure from the top mark down then the bottom mark up and split the difference again. No need to get too technical
Actually this is very true. I kinda thought the same thing when seeing it. Depending on which way it would be off a degree or 2.
very good video Matt, thanks for the upload.
I think I did the same because my marks were like 5 inches apart and went into trigger wizard and had it all fucked up so I set back to default. I would like to be sure of timing before I put the 20 pound springs in waste gate and shit goes BANG!
I always thought you just needed to line up the dots on the crankshaft timing sprocket gear and cam gear to set the timing. Either piston #1 or # 8 would be at TDC depending on the rotation you set it at. Being that the cam gear has has one revolution per 2 rotations of the crankshaft sprocket. I was under the impression that either was fine as long as the dots are lined up.
Lucas Henderson that's right in a sense.. but all reluctors on the LS cranks are not all indexed in the same position. They can be up to 10* off.
Matte BlacK guess that's why people degree their cams lol. Thats good to know, I had no idea they can be that far off.
He's checking the ignition timing, not the cam timing.
correct, ignition timing not cam timing
If you will screw the piston stop out a ways and repeat what you did, the marks will come closer together. The distance between the two is true top dead center. It compensates for slack of the timing chain and bearing clearance. The caliper measurement was in thousands, not crankshaft rotation. You are getting there.
Lovin your attitude pal. shouldve known your channel earlier! Subbed! i was where i saw this colorado? hahahha RCR!!
Just a couple thoughts.... that piston stop should have the threads removed from the front half incase a valve does nick them you can still remove it, also it would be a good idea to mark both the inside and outside of the damper to verify that it is not moving on the elastomer "slipping".
it does
yeah the video you were doing with your dad, i was super confused. this video helped a lot
Why did Chevy do away with the timing pointer on a LS engine?
balancer has no keyway. so marking everything would be fruitless, engine has crank position sensor, and its factory installed and "good enough" for most applications
hey Matt, you could tell how much you are off by counting teeth on the flex plate. That should be almost as accurate as a degree wheel. I don't know if you need that but if you do, that is cheap.
4:48 "Is this 15mm?"
>Uses impact on it.
what a way to live
That was a lotta work to find TDC as opposed to the screwdriver method.
As usual thanks for the education Matt!
Having never built an LS before, does the Distributorless ignition require some kind of special timing light to pick up the signal? Like an LED or something? My gut tells me any dial back light will work, what sez You?
i am using a regular light, it goes on the CNP wire and picks it up just like a distributor
@@SloppyMechanics what's a CNP
@@timbowalk coil near plug, and with a timing light you clip it onto the number 1 cylinder plug wire and then crank it up. You also need to connect your timing light to the battery as well for power
TDC on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke ?
@sl
I have a stock engine That I’m doing a btr stage 2 cam to . What Iv normally done in the past on other engines is align the dot on the timing chain to the harmonic balancer . Would this b sufficient for my application?
Will this work for West coast as well as east?
Isn't ignition timing based off of the reluctors and not adjustable on an ls engine (without removing and welding the reluctor in the correct spot)?
correct, it can still be installed slightly off, resulting in this small deviance
So are you just going to pull 5.5 degrees from your whole timing table now?
I feel like this is a dumb question but why not just take the timing on the compression stroke when the valves are nowhere near being open?
I just dropped a oem cam into a 6.2 l92 ls and is having the same situation with it stopping on a valve dropping to far i know the spring is getting to compressed im pretty sure i jumped the timing a teeth or two on the chain any suggestions???? Heads are still on the block
I can't wait till this guy gets his own camera man so he can be more efficient with better quality content.
haha doubtful that will happen
Sloppy Mechanics it will happen when the time is right. I highly suggest it.
That dang Scott Clark
I like that high dollar leakdown tester your using. Guessing its a compression tester with the schrader valve removed?
works great for holding the valves up when changing springs too ;)
its actually a real hf leak down, i have their compression tester also
realy? they dont put a gauge on it ?
Matt, you probably could have marked the shadow on the belt also. A little different but still the same.
Like MJ with the one glove
off screen crotch grabs
what if you're in the eastern hemisphere on a leap year
How do you know how at into the bore you are inserting the stop? Is it irrelevant since you're splitting the difference anyway?
what a fine bit of info! thank you!
Im learning so much.
If install ls1 crank pulley on 5.3 LS engine. How would sets ignition timing on that?
what year model of 4.8 would be best. performance wise? I'm looking to swap in a L's 4.8 in a 97 blazer. thanks
I wonder how accurate we are when we do this. both of my 4.8s ended up around 4.5 degree out.
do you know if it is possible to set the cam 180 degrees off on these motors? Just replaced my timing chain sounds like it is off
I may have missed you say this, but do you think this has anything to do with your idle issues or do you still think its your converter?
D E L P H I it's still converter drain back valve it's really common when installing s triple disk converter in a modded 80e I am finding out
So did I get that right, the 992WHP run was in fact done with ~8deg less advance than you assumed? Man am I excited to see you see what this thing makes with the upgraded fuel and a couple more degrees of advance...
decnet100 5less... but I tune everything for what it wants this does not mean it will like 5more degrees everywhere
Sloppy Mechanics Alright, I see... guess it's still a better feeling when the advance value you're setting is somewhere within the margin you're expecting :) Best of luck with it at any rate!
Will you plz tell which welder or type of welder you use most to weld up exhaust manifolds and such.
Mig, Tig (DC or AC), Stick, Torch, ect.
All I have currently is an AC buzz box and a torch.
I picked up a 1/4 impact last week and a Milwaukee 3/8 ratchet today.
Next is a welder.
Thanks
i have a hobart 190 right now and it is flat out amazing
you're going to love the impact and ratchet, it will change your life
U should add ur videos to ur Facebook page too I bet u would get more views there 🙌 awesome channel and videos by the way. Been a subscriber for a long time.
i do, every single one of them, maybe you should join the facebook page lol
Sloppy Mechanics which page 😂😂😂 I could of sworn I was and if I'm not I definitely will 🙌 and if I am ill make sure my Notification are turned on lol
Thanks for your humbleness. quick question. how much timing does the ls like under boost say 10 lbs? and max timing normally aspirated. 5.3
well every motor is different as i am sure you know, ill just lay out a general rule of thumb most LS motors like to be in the low 20deg area on pumpgas all motor, and for a turbo LS i usually try to shoot right for 14lbs and 14deg and see what kind of power they make and move the ignition around to see if its making good power per degree or has needless extra in it, most cars around 10lbs 16-18deg will work out fine
Sloppy Mechanics when you say 14deg for turbo Ls , is that adjusted with the tune or crank gear?
take a old plug remove the insulator, and put a 1/4" bolt down the middle.
+sloppy necganics - Damn I subbd and never even heard about the 30k burnout lol
thanks for expanding my horizon! kinda off topic but do you have a video of doing piston ring gapping¿
never mind I found it xD
I've found on my pile of shit firebird that if your alternator is easily accessible, you can rotate the engine using the belt/alternator nut which is normally 15/16"
I have the same tight clearance issues with mine, thus how I found that trick out LOL.
haha awesome tip i have never tried this
Interesting.
I've always remove the spark plug pick up pencil put in hole turn crank to the pencils dead top old school buddy
Whatcha intake valve on 1 when it opens and closes that will be ready to fire
i think i may be a little lost dont the computer get the timing from a cam position sensor so if the timing is off wouldn't the cam be off too but anyways great video im about to get an 05 yukon xl 6.0 awd that probably needs a turbo
James Holbrook cam position sensor is only used to sync the crank upon startup. you can run an ls engine without a cam position sensor and itll run fine.
Any chance that the timing being so whacked is what's causing your bad idle? I don't remember you talking about poor idle before this last rebuild and "verifying" the timing.
nope, 5deg off for idle is nothing, specially since for an idle strategy it swings the ignition timing around
Isn't timing marked tdc on compression stroke so valves should be closed anyway?
yes but when you spin around back the other way to mark the other side, you're going into exhaust stroke.
What program are you using for your laptop
where did you get that engine stand. Whats it called.
What problems were you having ?
What's the difference between microsquirt and megasquirt
Micro is a condensed version of mega
Sloppy Mechanics when you made the 1000 hp + what was the AR on the turbine and what lb injectors was chosen ...?? I have a 5.3 LM7 block with 862 heads with twin 71mm turbos w/.68 A/R I'm looking for 1000HP +
sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/sloppy-builds/colorado
Where did you get that piston stop?
Not related to this video but what turbo would you recommend for a 04 Grand Prix gtp? Is the one on your truck a cx racing turbo? Thanks
you have to figure out your goal for the car, and then choose a turbo to fill your hp requirement.
Sloppy Mechanics well it's my girlfriends daily driver and I want her to be able to run like 10psi daily and be able to turn it up to atleast 20-25 if we want, since it's got the l32 3800 it's all forged and everything from the factory I'll be getting a block off plate for the m90 eaton and taking the rotors out cause I guess that's how people run these with a turbo, thanks for your help also I don't mind a little turbo lag if that's what it takes to have a bigger turbo thanks again
the issue is those transmissions are total shit, and you'll nuke it easily with even a small turbo
I just don't know what size I need to be able to make that kind of boost but not have to much lg I guess what is the one on your truck? I know you said it was just some Chinese one
It's like 350 bucks on Amazon and is the cx racing brand like I said and this is what it says about it
Description
T67 0.81 A/R P Trim Turbo Charger, Oil Cooled, 0.81 Turbine Big Turbo, Big Power, 67mm Compressor Wheel. 0.81 A/R Turbine for Mid-High end Power, fast Spool High Quality Turbo, with Big Wheels, Good For 400 to 500. Billet Aluminum CNC Machined Back Plate. Computer Balanced. Item(s) Specification: - 3" Air Inlet - 2" Air Outlet - Wet Floating Bearings - 1/8 NPT Oil Inlet - Standard T4 Manifold Flange - 400-500 HP Rating - 67mm Wheel Compressor - P Trim .81 A/R Turbine - 74.1mm/64.6mm Turbine Wheel - 3" V-band Hot Side - Perfect for any 6 to 8 cylinder engines, and high Power 4 Cylinder engines
Am I really limited to 500 with this?
isnt he 180 degrees out ?
Your making Scott Clark happy I know that much!
anything to help the man find peace
Lol it was pretty cool to see you do it though
i just put a ratchet on my alternator to spin over the engine so i don't have to fuck around finding the crank nut
lol awesome
watching this on the dunny
Always used a screwdriver to find top dead......but I'm from the bush.....Australia
You don't need to disable the rocker, but tou have to pit the piston stop in around TDCC - on the compression stroke
i thought you marked the balancer with a dial indicator on the truck motor?
maybe a motor or two ago, and probably for cam timing
you help me out. thanks!
isn't the balancer keyed? if so why doesn't it have a timing mark on it already?
Most LS's aren't keyed.
why didnt you mark the balancer when you had the heads off and we're checking the rods with the mic?
so glad you asked, because 90% of my builds i will never have the heads off so i wanted a working example of doing this.
Sloppy Mechanics good reason
Am i crazy or did i hear you say on a video that "pushrods can shrink"? My ls1 feels a little sluggish. I think this might be my problem.
just use a screwdriver to set tdc
i look forward to watching your how to video on this
did most videos use that stopper or something else because using a small stick or something like tgar wouldn't hit the valve
well i should've watched a little further before commenting
gsppuffer lol
Thanks so much for this info. It helped a lot.
You're awesome!
don't you want to fire about 6° after TDC anyways? great vid tho
well. not when you are commanding 13deg at 20lbs, then you're actually at 19deg and you hurt your rods...
is this with the stage 2 deal/
See what you need is a spark plug dial indicator or a cheap Wassel TDC tool from ebay
I don't understand, doesn't the ecu use the reluctor wheel to set the timing?
and the cam position sensor.
Ryan Barbolt computer isn't always right neither are sensors
You still need to be able to verify that everything is in proper mechanical timing
But for what purpose, are you verifying the cam timing? Degreeing a cam is prob the only reason to do this on an ls.
Ryan Barbolt you still need to help everything in Time together
Everything has to be able to work together
You'll see why if you watch the entire video
Because his timing was off
His entire timing
Including at the computer and what the computer thought it was doing was off by 5.5 degrees
If even one Is off
It screws it up for both the computer
And you
Mmmm, I don't think so, the balancer on these engines isn't even keyed and has no real role in the timing of the engine. Unless like I said he's degreeing the cam.
I don’t get why you would need to do this? If the cam and crank is dot 2 dot why wouldn’t timing be right?
Franky Weldon this is for ignition timing, you are talking about cam timing , two different things
Dork.....
Thanks bro
good info