Podcast 340 - Projectile Proficiency with an Industry veteran Joel Maxfield
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2023
- This podcast is one that I personally was really hoping for. I was lucky enough to get Joel Maxfield on for his first podcast. Full disclosure, Joel is one of my personal mentors in bowhunting. He began working for MATT McPherson as a youngster with McPherson archery and then became the first employee of Mathew’s and ultimately my boss there during my time. Much of my base in archery came from watching Joel and Matt in the bow labs and experimenting with the founding teams there. Joel has a hunting resume that is far to long to write. I’ve never met someone more serious and dedicated to bowhunting and archery than Joel. He loves the industry, loves the dealers and loves professional archery. He has a Grand Slam in archery and the Super Slam in archery. He shoots a compound and traditional gear. His wife Janice is an extremely successful short draw low poundage archer also having success on most species around the globe. His experience and curiosity goes deeper than anyone I know of when it comes to real life application of arrows and animals. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
- Sport
I cant get enough of John Dudley talking archery with another knowledgable archery guy like Joel Maxfield.
I haven't even finished watching this....but the VERY VERY best archery talk/podcast I have ever listened too. Been an avid consumer of lots of different "theories". Thank you Joel Mafield for sharing. You absolutely saved me from giving a damn about momentum and considering heavy arrows.
Momentum has been proved in hunting projectiles for years - archery only starting that waste of time debate. Science is FACT.
This is one of my favorite podcasts of Nockon. This and episode 61 (heard it 11 times). This is the first time I've heard Joel Maxfield, and I like his archery energy. Engineering work like his and yours John Dudley is a language I can understand well. Thank you both for the healthy nutrition.
I've been foll🎉owing you and Troy for years. I shoot 29 inches, 70 lbs and I was up to 550. I didn't like the trajectory so I went to 520. I've now settled at 480 and it's the best I've ever hunted with. 300 spine, fixed blade. 11 deer last year. Only 1 wasn't a pass through.
Equal KE and penetration...right on. Equal momentum results was a head scratcher...very very interesting discussion. Nothing beats EXPERIENCE!
I’ve been able to teach myself archery at the School of Nock. Without your content, I’d be nowhere close to where I am. There’s so many ways to chase your tail in this sport so I’ve really enjoyed learning what to care about and what not to. There’s so much information out there and it can be hard to parse what’s real and what isn’t, especially for the average archer who doesn’t have countless hours for testing
John, this is one of your best Podcasts! Thanks Joel, for your knowledge!
Joel is the first person in the hunting community Ive seen who actually understands that deer do not 'jump the string' to dodge the arrow, they lift their front legs to drop and load their back legs for an evasive move. It would be the same reaction to the sudden presence of a leaping cougar
This conversation...awesome!!! It caused me to start experimenting with various weights of arrows shot out of the same bow. I have 5/8" rubber stall mat (horse trailer floor covering) as a backstop behind my 3D deer target. Joel mentioned that he had good results with 6.5 to 6.7 grains of arrow weight. So just tinkering with an extra 68 pound compound bow, I carefully calculated and landed on 444 grains. I paper tuned, walk back tuned and set my sights. Shots were taken at 60 yards and intentionally shot at the stall mat. Maybe not entirely scientific, but oddly the results are consistent. 458 grain penetrated further than a 518 grain and a 444 grain penetrated more than a 458 grain. Reducing arrow weight by 14 grains resulted in 8 inches less drop at 60 yards. Obviously my groups got smaller with the 444 grain arrows and back in the speed bow days, I killed deer with much lighter arrows than that. So, I have to eat some crow here. Previously I said that I would hunt hogs with a heavier arrow. Now, due to the results of my test, I'm not so sure about that. I'm going to go shoot a pig with the 444 grain arrow and find out. Joel explaining what his wife shoots opened my eyes enough to make me curious enough to do my own research. Thanks to John for going to the trouble of staying the course and trying to give out good information and thanks to Joel for being willing to share his knowledge as well. Kinda feel a bit dumb actually. I recall setting up a 40 pound bow for my Son when he was 10 years old. Can't recall the arrow length, or weight, but they were tiny. Results? 20 yards, complete pass through and the mature doe piled up in less than 60 yards. A lot of guys are saying that they are going to limit themselves to 30 yards, so a 650 grain arrow is what they are going to shoot. It's America, home of the free, so I commend them for voluntarily restricting themselves, but at 30 yards, since I practice at 60 yards, my animals are going to be just as dead and it's likely that I can shoot as accurately at 40 yards as they can at 20 yards, just because of having a flatter trajectory. "Ever thrown a rock?" Priceless!!!
Have you tried to go even lighter than 444 grs, to see if penetration increases or decreases?
Please, let me know on your results on pigs with the 444 grs arrows, compared to the heavier ones, as I' m mostly interested in our european boars (I live in Europe), and I tipically shoot between 60# and 65# at 29", so I would like to maximize penetration.
Thanks !!
Yup kinetic energy is the gold standard as far as I'm concerned anyone whose curious should look at a KE calculator and figure out what the highest KE they can get with their bow
Penetrating a 5/8" stall mat with field points vs penetrating 2-4 ft of meat and bone with broadheads are entirely different tests. Everyone keeps doing these pentration tests (with fieldpoints) on things were not penetrating in the woods, including our beloved Joel Maxfield. I get we cant test on live deer or even dead deer for that matter. But it doesnt make foam tests and stall mats any more valid for correlating an end result of shooting live animals. I am curious since you practice at 60 yds, in your career of deer hunting, how many deer have you killed and how many kills have been say 50+ yds out?
@@JH-hx2cl
The only thing you can measure and test is the energy of the arrows, and, to do that, you need a constant medium.
You have to use something omogeneus, you can use foam, you can use water jugs, you can use ballistic gel, it doesn't matter: the more energy the arrow possesses, the more it will penetrate.
This same energy that pushes the arrow deeper into the foam is the same energy that pushes the arrow with the broadhead deeper into meat and bones, than you can play with broadheads and other variables.
In any way, if you shoot at 20 yards or so, you should't have any penetration problem with any arrow weight..
I’m new to archery and started reading about Dr. Ashby. I got kinda hung up on his theory of FOC. I just moved to a lighter arrow. Which I’m at 65# with a 455 grain arrow. = 7.02 gn per lb.
This was done before watching this podcast and it now makes me feel like I went the right direction. Thanks for doing what you do!
The very best arrow talk I have heard.
Thank you🎉
Thanks a lot for such a lot of experimental data's!
That is like a diamond 💎 in archery education 🙌🏻👍🏻🤝🏻👌🏻✨☀️🌾🌿🍀
MFJJ with Spokane Archery seems knowledgeable and has strong options. I think he would be a good addition to expert arrow discussion.
Joel is the man!!
RF has never said that heavy arrows hit higher than light arrows due to speed retention. He showed that the pin gaps for heavy arrows have a more consistent gap while recognizing that they have more drop at range. In order to have an actual debate you need to at least understand the counter argument.
Pure Genius!
Lots of great knowledge on this one!
Rockets were so awesome. I was lucky to buy a gallon bag from him before he passed. Those 100 steelheads rocked everything
Thanks for this episode and some common sense. I was starting to wonder if I needed to start over based on some of the info coming out these days.
I think Brent at Valkyrie Archery has the right idea. Decent FOC, moderate weight, true flying arrows. 3:1 mechanical advantage and SHARPNESS matter more than just arrow weight alone.
Great job.
1:43:40 I think a great counterpoint to what RF claims about needing two holes (complete passthrough) is being made. RF point is really only valid for a shaft with a field point because if it has a broadhead on it, whether it be fixed or mechanical, that hole is already many times larger than the shaft diameter and is no more likely to close with one hole than it is with two holes. Off course two holes would work faster, in theory but not always in practice (lots of variables), and I think that's where the RF argument would be better served; that it has the potential for a faster death rather than the determining and an essential factor for death.
There is only one thing that counts - after accuracy that is - physics/maths. Calculate the KE and momentum down range - at hunting distance - say 30 to 40 yards max for most of us mortals. The heavier arrows maintain more of both - period. Those are FACTS - not opinions.
No way I am the only one confused. This was supposed to be the discussion with Troy Fowler. However, he never killed an elk and doesn't group tune at 90 meters so he is irrelevant. Refusing to talk broadhead efficiency is a red flag on the whole conversation.
That is a different podcast
@@MiguelGrrza what, the one with Iron Will Bill or the Doctor? Dud was a dud in both and came off arrogant. One lunging is not okay.
@@cjr4497 you asked about the podcsst with Troy. That is episode 339, this is ep 340 a conversation with Joel Maxfield.
Thats not what he hunts so why practice at this egotistical distances. Hes literally said his set up isnt for everyone. Boy your a judgmental F head in a space where we are all supposed to lift each-other up.
Great conversation would’ve liked a description of how he adjusts to keep kinetic energy, the same with different arrows.
Best nock on podcast to date.
I have a rectangle sight on my bow. I never knew I was supposed to align the peep with the front sight housing. Ive always just centered the pin in the peep
I'm not arguing foc or arrow weight, but shooting into ballistic gel to determine penetration is 1000% bogus. It's a homogenous substance. There's a reason all the arrows stop consistently.
I think that 3 blade head with rearward open was a Rocky MTN Revolution. Was the broadhead my son killed his first deer @ 12. Then I smoked a few deer with them also. Now we have deadmeats & megameats.
John Dudley and Wayne endicott CZcams video would be epic!
A thought about the discussion RE bow efficiency at around 1 hr 30 mins.
Not all compounds are created equal and neither are trad bows. Each bows design has an inherent limb inertia when the bow is discharged. Ill use trad bows as an example because thats what I build.
Factory bows generally run around 180 to 185fps at 10gpp and a 28" draw. One of the bows I designed beats that by 16fps or 11fps respectively, which is a massive amount in the Trad world.
The difference between the design I used and factory bows is that limb inertia and how it translates energy to the arrow during the power stroke. When you utilise design principles to match the inertia to the desired arrow mass, you gain efficiency, not so much just adding mass to the arrow to gain efficiency.
It would be very possible to achieve the same in a compound design BUT because of that 5gpp and 30" draw standard the bows are literally designed and set up to perform better with pathetically light arrows rather than heavy ones.
Kill depth window, sounds to me like a gun world phrase called ‘maximum point blank range’ if you think about it per pin it’s the same thing really.
Y’all say you don’t get why everyone is worried about penetration but have you ever stopped to asked yourself if the reason why everyone is doing this is because they are having failures with the typical light arrow mechanical broadhead bow shop setup? If there are that many people making the switch then there is probably some legitimacy to their concerns and reasoning for switching. The most important thing someone needs to take hunting is a system that they trust and have confidence in. If that’s 300 grains and mechanical fine if it’s 700 grains and single bevel fine. We don’t all have to be the same.
I remember that post I was the one guy agreeing with Joel that day
Guys think arrows are bullets without the horsepower in draw weight and drawlength heavy arrows are hitting dirt mass× speed = kinetic energy
Just question here isn't there a diminishing returns in momentum once arrow weight goes up and fps drops? For me I've always like to use lighter gpi and reach my desire arrow weight by insert and point weight because I have more flexibility that way. Always prefer to stay 440grn-460grn whatever getting me around that 275-280 fps range. I feel same as y'all if you want better penetration use fixed head.
I like this content one question is if penetration can be no problem with lower pound bows then why are you building 80 lb pull bows for joe and jocko why don't you convince them lower lbs and lighter arrows?
Can’t wait to order the Nock On Iron Will broad head
Lol all these “bow shop bros” trying to bring down RF tells me all I need to know….I don’t know how you teach people, you don’t have to “build a bow” to have an accurate setup.
Their telling you how to kill actual game.....not just hogs at 15yrds!
Hey JD, when are you going to invite Dylan Mulvaney to TAC and drink a couple of Budlights? 🤣
How about talking about arrows that fall in between, say mid 400 to low 500 grains. Both sides keep talking about the extremes when most people aren’t shooting the extremes.
I shot my first deer with a Martin Warthog in the late 80s. It was a hand me down from my dad. Even though Joel's shop wasn't too far away, my dad bought it from a different shop.
Ranch is such a industry disrupter. We now have access to all this info. Beautiful.
Can anyone tell me where to find Joel's data that he collected and these photos?
When i was 12-15 am 55 now. Easton x7’s we’re for target shooters. Xx75’s multi purpose. Then they had gamegetters. For hunting and those were pretty soft
57:02 “tell me something to shoot into and I’ll shoot into it”. How about just a couple game animals?
Great podcast, good luck hunting
I don't know why people argue this . Velocity is literally measure in fps. So by scientific law an object shot at 260fps and 300fps will have a different trajectory bc distance travel in x amount of time. But wonder if ppl who say they can shoot out to 40 with one pin are setting a 30yd pin and no their impacts at 20 and drop at 40?
Too light is just as bad as too heavy.
Not every bow needs 600 grains.
350 is just too light for most.
350 from a 45 pound compound bow is like a 75 pound compound shooting a 500 grain arrow……
So you need to look at it all.
Now a lighter arrow will need a fixed head.
A heavier arrow can use the mechanicals.
Gold nuggets all day
2 Nock On Podcasts in 1 day!!!? Holy smokes is it Christmas or what? Man I could listen to these all day!
What is the percentage foc that you consider extreme?
90%...lmao
Like, like, like, its like, like you know what i mean. I just feel like, like the arrows to heavy, like i just feel like.
Im dumbfounded that you had to go out and actually shoot different weight arrows into a target face to prove that heavier arrows are slower out of the same bow. you have to thoroughly not understand ballistics to be confused enough to think your heavier arrow is faster downrange than a lighter arrow.
Why do people get so hung up on pin gaps. Per Pope and Young the average shot on a whitetail deer is 19 yards... stop telling the average whitetail deer hunter that they need to shoot at 80-90 yards and all of a sudden nobody cares about pin gaps....🤦♂️
Jennings carbon extreme in 1990.
Has anyone shot a sambar deer?
3rd largest in the world behind moose and elk….?
…ghosts of the Aussie bush. 😶🌫️
Screw flappers.
People like to disagree with each other dose not matter what the subject is take the time to be good at what you are doing weather you shoot 400 or 700 grain arrows is up to you there are no experts everyone has room for improvement you have to take the time to be good at whatever you do be able to adjust to what is taking place do not be stuck on one thing if you can not take the time to be the best that you can be then you be with what like to use the you might need to fine something else to do shooting a tooth pick or a fence post is your choice I,m know expert just someone that started bowhunting in 1985 have seen grow and Im glad for it this is just a shit house layers two sence worth and some one that likes to bowhunt.
I got an idea. You guys should get the ballistic torso guy to build you a whitetail dummy for testing your mangina arrows.
Better yet you try to catch my 435gr arrow tipped with a mega meat!
@@ranchosendero your mega meat is mega garbage. Throw that weak sauce in the trash son. All the animals in the woods are laughing at you.
I see alot of idiots misrepresent what ranchfairy is saying.
The difficult thing is it truly depends on what video you saw Troy in. He's all over the place.
The thing I don't care for with RF is that he says he's trying to set the truth straight and that he's trying to be objective. But then be designs every video to prove his point and discredit others.
We can't forget the amount of shit talking that he's done and act like he's just been a saint.
So whats the point? Most of talking is good ole boy memories, they agree with all the science of RF but disagree how to apply the physics, and offer no solution for better flight, better penetration, how to retain Kenetic energy down range, best setup to project an reasonable cast of arrow. How about you make content to set up bows and tune? There is a middle ground where high FOC is beneficial and having a lighter arrow helps with accuracy with better cast.
You weren’t listening
You need to watch again....they literally dismissed all those theories!
I think you've got to take Nock On's channel into to context - All he talks about is arrow flight and technique. Dudley was the driving force behind getting Brass HITs in Easton arrows I believe to get some FOC.
like,likelike,like,jesus find a new word, like
Hi Dud you can't say it I will your talking about the ranch ferry. He's becoming rich with his false theories. Its all being done to sell high end broad heads and arrows. He don't even deer hunt he shoots little pigs most of the time. I get disgusted with the way the industry is heading. I'm 62 and been bow hunting for 45 years and I'm happy there's men like you to keep the tradition of Bowhunting alive. Good luck in your journey you have alot against you but your alot of a person Thanks Ralph D
Yeah Dud hasn’t gotten rich selling his arrows and stuff at all! Lol Don’t worry, the industry is still very much supporting the light arrows (even lighter than Dudley shoots) and high wound loss rates that probably will come to unite the archery industry for the worst reason.
IS this a JOKE.. Dudley is pushing easton arrows and expandables like its his job.. Ohh wait it is.. This chat is an echo chamber
Hi, No reason to get mad. I realize all sport celebrities make money from there sport. My feeling is that John Dudley has earned the right to because of the fact he is an accomplished archer and hunter. He started with nothing at a young age and worked his way up to were he is today. He also is a good family man and son. I'm not defending him because he doesn't need to be and I'm nobody but an old 45 year bowhunter and at 62 your always learning. Well you take care good luck and stay safe this hunting. Ralph D.
Guess you missed where ranch fairy said he's been bowhunting for 40 years and was a board member of the ashby foundation....@@ralphdeniscojr6198
What your years of hunting videos between the two of you don't show is you being backed up with a rifle because your arrows are weak sauce son. 😅 OH, I am going to keep having fun with this.
Are you saying they need follow up shots with a rife?
@drewmac85 dude, I am just trolling hard and having fun. JD is triggered harder than Nancy Pelosi at a Trump rally at these people showing up to TAC with heavy hunting arrows.
I love it how John disproves Ranch Fairy’s theories and con artist archery scheme, then 2 hours later posts a legitimate podcast with an expert on arrow proficiency to silence the haters. Calculated and amazing.
Where was the part where he disproved anything? He rattled off lots of old target arrow components and showed groups at 75yds and didn’t have anything to say when RF explained his KE data showing a 550gr arrow has the same KE at 60 yds as a 380 gr does at launch, made fun of RF’s form after claiming that he hasn’t seen any of RF’s stuff, and then asked RF why he doesn’t just look to what all his all-star hunter and shooter friends (some of the best in the world) shoot, and ignores the dirty little secret that the average archery wound loss rate is 50%.
@@dougderoycite your source for the wounded loss rate please. Regurgitation isn’t enough.
I used to say the same crap. I also said “it was a study done by the Texas Parks and Wildlife Service” because the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation said so.
Post the citation maybe they finally posted those results. I’d love to be wrong.
@@isaacjestus yeah I think the Texas study you’re referring to is:
Boydston, G.A. and H.G. Gore. 1987. Archery Wounding Loss in Texas. Texas Parks & Wildlife Department. Austin, Texas. USA. 11pp.
It and many more studies are cited and summarized here in this report by a pro-hunting (they say so in the report) group:
wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Bowhunting99-1.pdf
@@isaacjestus I dont need the ashby foundation to tell me anything.. Ive seen johns dogshit penetration on his last SHIRAS moose where he was well behind the shoulder because hes afraid of it and still needs a follow up shot.. There has to be a happy medium and John showing his shooting at 100 Yards falls WAY short of that mark !
You ever kill an elk bro? If not you cant talk archery.
This was such a good listen @nockontv