The Liturgy Divided - Michael Davies
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- Michael Davies gives a comparison on the two rites of mass we have today: the Tridentine mass (aka the Traditional Latin Mass) & the Novus Ordo. For more please visit catholicaudio.b...
I’m 33. I only attend Tradition Latin Mass and they have always been standing room only and filled with young families. The future is the past.
I hope your parish is still open.
I feel I am lucky since I have both and ICKSP within 1 HR, a parish TLM within 30 min and most parishes in the area are pretty rev NO...
Who the heck gave this a thumbs-down rating??? Anibal Bugnini himself?
I'd say the "normies" did it.
Protestants, surely !!
@@Perririri they prolly don't care how we worship at this point, most of the objections come from Boomer modernist Catholics.....
Maybe some freemasons....
Thank you for posting all these wonderful conferences by +Michael Davies. I only wish I could have met him at my TLM when he went on holiday to Spain... 😌 May our good Lord rest his passionately Catholic soul. 🙏
Michael Davies in his explanation of the liturgy of the Holy mass is worth and as good as the Catholic catechism.
It should be made a Catholic catechism of the Holy mass.
I have a Missal from 1948, it is compact, in Latin and English (completely in all aspects). There are no heresies, there are no things that are harmful to the faithful. My only criticism of it maybe in the passivity of some of the prayers themselves at Mass which normally start 'Grant us oh Lord...'and passive statements such as 'may we be imbued with the store of faith' etc. The English in this 1948 Missal is only a translation of the Latin. There is nothing in English which isn't in Latin. The dates, the calendar follow the traditions of days that go back hundreds of years so that you can understand rituals and devotions of people in the past. The extra prayers are all there and the priest's devotio prayers are all there. It is about you managing your prayer while the devotions go on, it is a wonderful, stimulating Missal which you can truly really get into. Since I got hold of this Missal I 'have become what I received'. I cannot abide with any Vatican publication Missal since 1963. It seems that since this time a deliberate attempt has been made to sow disunity, to destroy the old Mass, to fit into a 'globalist agenda' of a political origin. I got a recent MIssal in 2013 out of good faith, it is heavy, twice as big, there was very little Latin, none of the readings were in Latin so you cannot check the translations or their validity/. I heard that an Italian team of professional publishers was put together to devise this Missal, I was so disappointed when to my horror that they had Year 1 and 2 not Year A,B,C. I actually found it quite useless. I went back to my 1948 Missal. Dear Catholics, there is something seriously amiss. Michael is right. Marcel is right. The real shame is the apostasy going on that is now institutionalised. We are being dumbed down. Why don't we wake up and press the reset button? The irony is that nothing is being done. The other irony is that Vatican II at no point abrogates Latin rubric, the use mostly of plainchant and the continuation of all the wonderful traditions. It is time to get back to tradition and orthodoxy before the enemies of our church destroy us.
Thanks
Father Adrian Fortescue discussed the very antiquity of the Roman Rite in his classic, The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy (1912):
Essentially the Missal of St. Pius V is the Gregorian Sacramentary; that again is formed from the Gelasian book which depends on the Leonine collection. We find the prayers of our Canon in the treatise de Sacramentis and allusions to it in the IV century. So our Mass goes back, without essential change, to the age when it first developed out of the oldest liturgy of all. It is still redolent of that liturgy, of the days when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as to a God. The final result of our enquiry is that, in spite of unsolved problems, in spite of later changes, there is not in Christendom another rite so venerable as ours.
Woah, I had no idea you've posted so many talks by Michael Davies. I've heard this and about 5 more from the Pro Pontifice Et Ecclesia site, and I'll be listening to all of these. Thanks for posting.
+John Burton yeah that is a great site. I've thrown quite a few from that site up here. I get a lot of Davies booklets and pass them out too
31:20 - The object of the Mass isn't simply to offer public adoration to almighty God, but it is to build up the mystical body of Christ. This is particularly true of the reception of Holy Communion. St. Augustine noted that "we become what we receive."
We receive the Body of Christ in Holy Communion and we become the mystical Body of Christ."
I came from Baptist faith into Catholic faith seeing sacraments in scripture reading Catechism research at Public Library I won't go back to protestant faith. I have left neighborhood Catholic Church where priest speaks saying truth is in all faiths saying it is ok to dance into days world no He forgot to hold the Bible up in air then went back for it won't put anything under my chin when I take Eucharist I go to the Franciscans where I can kneel before my Lord King and truth is spoken not trash so sad. We Catholics must pray for all our priests and Latin Mass to be more available some Catholic faiths have them but not on Sunday if they do I can't get to it. I have no car nor much money being older.
+ella hope That's awesome that you could come from a background like the Baptists to embrace the True Holy Latin Mass. What a leap! How great are Jesus and Mary to hearts who truly desire truth. Keep the faith, dear Sister in Christ. I'll add you to my rosary intentions that Our Lady will make a way for you to get to the Latin Mass more. Pax Christi-
I also leftBaptist to the traditional catholic faith and now I am living near a daily mass, as something like an oblate.
ella hope, you speak the truth. No wonder my "Evangellical" Protestant friends won't convert. They have allowed themselves to he scandalized. I gently tell them about their 66 bible being botched by Luther, that renegade Catholic monk, but something else stands in their way of converting to the Church which Christ established.
@@TheBlessedbread Wow... good for you.... The old Mass truly does save souls... and is THE true work of the Holy Spirit.
We, in our small and ignorant roles, understand that the first step in all helping restoration of the Latin Rite is prayer & to stop sinning.
The channel has changed my life all over again - thus the preists - thus the Catholic Church - Thus Christ. In obedience I ask how good Shepard's of Sensus fidelium, how do we those in doioses and parishes so far from latin mass and the byzantine rite ask and bring to the attention of this so dire subject to our home preists? Yes prayer. How do we ask them to change the entire landscape of the parish? We need help and for a layman to attempt this without a community basis or plan laid out is a large task. Our hearts and consicnes weigh heavily every mass we attend outside of the Latin and Bzyantine rite. Our hearts weeping yet loving our very preists who bring fourth mass and all the savraments, they, the very life fibers of the Most Sacrad Heart, how do we ask them to restore the Latin rite?
We have the videos and sermons.
We hear, we listen, we hope.
How do we, the listeners then fo forth in our parishes witnessing all the above and more mentioned and yet feel helpless not knowing how to discuss even the first step in bringing back Latin to the preist? I would think many would take up a book or keep studying through sensus fidelium to know how to give reasons to restoration in our own parishes. If so than please help us in convincing the our holy preists the need for tradtional mass at their own hands within their flock.
Sensus Fidelium - is there anything we can give our preists to encourage them to return to this tradtion? Our prayers, yes. But when we see them - when we speak with them - what can we say? What can we request? I am, we, are asking for guidance.
St. Michael the Arch Angel, cut down the mountains of pride with humility and fill the values of timidity with boldness in our souls.
Mary Virgin Mother of God Queen of Hevean & Earth have mercy on us.
Please pray for us.
Amen.
Yes -- Get rid of the Norvus Ordo missae! Even the name (New Order mass) can cause scandal, which is the death of a soul.
It's never going to happen unfortunately. Like children who have lived on porridge being given a McDonalds, they are excited but they can't really live on it. Our new Protestant faith.
New World Order mass.
I'm a 15 years old Roman Catholic but i don't like the Novus Ordo because it's look soo modern and don't feels traditional, I WANT LATIN MASS(TRADITIONAL MASS OR TRIDENTINE) SOOO BADD AND I HOPE IT WILL MAKE A BIGGG COMEBACK!!!!!!!!!
I'm in new zealand. I just sent that picture of the bulldozer in the sanctuary to the aucklanf Bishops asking who the Bishop was.
Pardon my phrasing it this way, Michael Davies was Trad, when Trad wasn't cool....
A bishop smashing to smithereens an altar paid with the pennies of immigrants who can barely afford food and then demanding more money from the faithful, I would say to that Bishop you're not getting a dime!!!
Well now, THAT was thought provoking. .
This video is so true,true,true.
I funnily agree as a Lutheran. At this point most services of Confessional Lutheran Churches are (aside of the way the Anamnesis & Epiclesis is worded, of course) closer to the Tridentine Mass than a lot of "catholic" services. When members a lot of conservative Lutheran Churches (like SELK) receive the Lord kneeling on the tongue, and even fairly moderate Churches (like the ELVKS) still practice their service ad orientem in the majority of their congregations, why can't roman Catholics these days?
jerome96114 Lutheran "priests" dont have the power nor the authority to consecrate... Only R.C and Eastern Orthodox
Yes so true, but the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith, even for all it's human failings.
Michael Davies is wrong here. There is heresy in the gneral instruction of the new mass. It literally says in the general instrction "The priest presides over a memorial supper" which is Calvinism
Simply wonderful!
That West Country accent
I love candid perspective. Latin mass much deeper and maybe too much for this generation. I will live near a Latin mass on next home move.
Mr Davies, I agree with much of what you say but the claim that the whole ethos of the Mass was changed when Latin was dropped for the vernacular is not entirely correct, given that Latin was used as it was the lingua franca, the vernacular which most people understood, e.g. the Vulgate. However, Latin did mean that the whole church used one common vernacular (and not on singular to each country) and that unity has indeed been disrupted.
God bless,
V
If we only have Pope Benedict XVI as a Pope longer perhaps things could have changed.
Michael Davies quotes Cardinal Ratzinger most favorably in the post "Spirit of Vatican II".
That's what they were worried about.
I have a hard time looking at such ugly photos of the Novus Ordo. What brings horror to me is seeing such beautiful high altars not being used for what looks like a table in comparison to it. Followed by a Priest wearing what are comparably much uglier and saddening vestments than what our fathers in the faith have worn before.
The sheeps should unite and separate from the goats; the Truth against errors, heresies, and lies; the Marians against the Antichrists; the faithful remnants of the Traditional truth against the modernists who are the rebellious protestants within the Catholic Church; and the faithful remnants against the Judases who betrayed Jesus Christ and His One Holy Catholic Church. May the Holy Spirit of God enlighten our mind, and enkindle our heart and soul with the fire of the love of God, and neighbor, and renew the face of the earth.
Only the words of God remain. All liturgies, theological, disciplines, devotion tradition will pass away. Mass is a ritual. In mass we draw out attention to the 'words of God' and the 'Eucharist'. So we are facing where the central point of these devotion which is the altar (the table) and listen to the reading from the priest. The same facing to the liturgy of the Eucharist (we don't pay attention to the priest but what he say which is doesn't matter if he face the altar from the back or in the front because the central point is the altar (the table). This argument is the same as the argument the Protestants claim that Catholic worship Mary and will not see the explain of Catholic that we don't worship, we venerate Mary, not Adoration (Adoration vs venerate vs honor). The definition of word are very important. Most people don't know there are different kind of love and reverence. God love is charitable love while human have romantic and erotic and brotherly love. The liturgy was developed from time to time not the Sacred Traditions (words of God in oral form) or Sacred Scriptures. All men precepts and rules will pass away. There is no human liturgy in heaven. The same reverence that the Pharisee thought that is the only way to do the ritual and they miss that essential point, God (by paying too much attention to their traditional laws the washing of hand, head cover and sacrifice of animals).
The speaker talks about the post- conciliar mass is not intrinsically harmful to the faith. Yet, he goes on at length to discuss the participation of some protestant ministers-experts in designing the new mass. Is the Liturgy then divided or not? Or, if it is divided, then the division must not be essential? Ranged against the dictum lex orandi est lex credendi, however, it would seem to appear that the post conciliar mass is intrinsically harmful to the faith. Contrary to what the speaker is talking about. As one eminent priest wrote, it is suicide to alter the faith in the liturgy.
I dont believe the thumbnail photo is Michael Davies.
The Church of Sarum or Salisbury with the Use of Sarum or Sarum Use is a different religion, church, or denomination than the Tridentine Church or the Church of Trent with the Tridentine Mass.
The Use of Sarum was never abrogated as it was a lot older than 300 years, the threshold given at the Council of Trent.
It would be valid for Catholic priests and laity to celebrate it now, albeit with their ordinary's permission
Definitely *not* a different religion, not sure where you're getting that from...!
There's no unity in the new mass. Not only dose it differ from parish to parish. It differs from mass to mass in the same parish.
How about Sarum or Salisbury vs. Tridentine instead?
Yes. One can use the Sarum Rite utterly validly in today's Catholic Church. To do so in public one would just need the permission of one's ordinary.
As you can several other Medieval rites
THE TRIDENTINE MASS[46] OR THE NEW “ORDO MISSAE”?
J: Furthermore, Those up there (he points upward) prefer the Tridentine Mass to the Mass in German (=also French, English - “the vernacular”) and to the New Mass, because it cannot be translated exactly.
E: Do you mean the Tridentine Mass in Latin? Tell the truth, tell the truth. Judas Iscariot, nothing but the truth, on behalf of the Blessed Virgin!
J: The texts are difficult to translate into German.[47] That is how those inexact words have come in - words which carry fewer blessings at Mass.[48] Everything which is not said exactly as Christ wishes it, carries fewer blessings. This applies especially at the Consecration; the words of consecration must be pronounced in a perfectly correct way. Not one syllable should be changed. Everything must be done strictly correctly. Do you know how, in our place (Hell), everything is perfectly well-ordered? Even in the Catholic Church, things are no longer conducted in such an orderly fashion as they are where we come from
"Warnings from the Beyond"
You do not go to Spain for holiday but for vacation. Christmas, Thanksgiving and Easter are holidays
Michael L. Diveley Are you aware that not everyone is American, Sir?
novus horror missae !!
BACK TO THE SPIRITUALITY OF PRAYING BEFORE THE BEAUTIFUL ALTAR AND KNELLING-PRAYER THAN STANDING BEFORE THE KING OF THE UNIVERSE IN HIS THRONE BECAUSE THAT' S WHAT HIS ALTAR IS: THE DIVINE THRONE OF GOD.
THAT PEOPLE PRESENT BEING BEFORE GOD IN HIS THRONE IS LOST IN THE HOLY MASS AND THE CHURCH TODAY.
IT IS DISRESPECT AND ALMOST HERETICAL.
We have to go back to St Augustine; to St Thomas Aquinas.
To their time of spirituality.
No more biblical theology interpretation; but the traditional teaching of the Magesterium must be taught back to the faithful.
Look at that beautiful Latin Tredentine altar .
The old mass with knelling and turning to the altar is far better in spirituality ; it's like wanting to knell before the church altar the same as when you pray at your altar at home.
You build altar to encourage you to pray at home in imitation of what you do at the Church. You also beautify the altar on your home like the Church altar.
But it's not correct to call it two rites. There is only one rite. The Roman Rite. Plus, in spite of the multiple abuses (and I have seen some) I honestly doubt that the Novus Ordo mass in and of itself (even though Vatican II was not infallible) would have error. There are ambiguities at best. "Spiritual Drink" (Potus Spiritalis) for example, from the offering of the chalice in the OF. No doubt it's ambiguous. But the way I see it, The sacred Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Blessed Lord is for more for our spiritual welfare. In it, Christ gives us Himself to save us.
Still, The Novus Ordo mass, though it should not go, should be revised.
Mr Davies speaks of calling the TLM the "roman rite" in another Q&A talk saying if you call it that then the higher ups will say the novus ordo is the roman rite.
Compare the Lutheran divine service withe new order of mass. Compare the texts. You will see why the new mass has flaws. It just does. Plain and simple. Its valid of course but it isn't just ambiguity sir.
The reason it is value is of course because of the priests valid orders he received at his ordination. Compared to the 1962 missal or the ones prior it is pitiful that the church has kept the Novus ordo around as long as it has. Besides ,the fruits of Vatican 2 and the Novus ordo mass speaks for itself
Mark Hilston valid. Not value
it's not correct to call it one rite. because there is clearly two completely different rites, gestures, prayers, implications and more importantly Theological differences.
He makes a big faux pas when he refers to the procession of Our Lady to the grotto as an act of worship. We do not worship Our Lady. It is an act of devotion.
Evelyn Milne We tend to deny the word "worship" for Our Heavenly Mother so that the protestants won't climb down our throats and make us feel like we are dishonoring God, but there are different forms of worship and one of them very much is honoring Our Mother. Mr. Davies did NOT make a "big faux pas".
The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, "honour"; from worth, meaning "value", "dignity", "price", and the termination, ship; @09019 cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a @11726 or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of @04710, of the @01476, even of @12734, and especially of the @04529. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to @06608, to @08374, to His @04171, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to @06608.There are several degrees of this worship:if it is addressed directly to @06608, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the @04276 @14580 term, aworship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to @06608 alone; addressed to a creature it would become @07636.When worship is addressed only indirectly to @06608, that is, when its object is the veneration of @09736, of @01476, or of @04171, it is a subordinate worshipdependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of@06608 for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by @14580 as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used tosignify our worship of distinguished servants of @06608, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and @02715,Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, @03005, 1880, 22 sq.).As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the @04171, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).
Thank you! I too caught that... I wondered why he would say that
Evelyn Milne Saying it is an act of devotion proves to the protestant that you are worshiping Mary. That particular language proves their point as they do daily devotion to God.
Why do I have to appease a "protester" ?
They neither respect a digression nor you..
I honor, venerate and adore My Queen, the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ !
She brings Jesus Christ to my Soul as deigned by The Father...she fails not, in her role...
Ps.- I also adore my deceased little girl.
May she Rest in Peace...amen
I have pictures of her, I talk to her, I pray for her and ask of her prayers...
Though she is in my broken Heart, I refer to her still as my little girl..in the memory of her pictures.
I wish I had a statue of her also...too bad to you who don't get it...that is your dilema(grow up).
So if your inclined to dumb down or to cast distortions upon truths because your a fng idiot(sorry...not)..keep it to your uneducated
arrogant self.
I have seen too many miracles...please pray for me?
There is a type of worship that is to God alone and then there is a type of worship that you give to your parents and Kings. It all ends up being semantics.
If the mass is not translated properly why don't they just do that. I prefer the native language mass. The Latin mass is only good for catching up on sleep. I follow every word of the English mass always.
It's not what you prefer, but what's pleasing to God. Why not follow the missal in your native language? Back in a day one could be in China, France, or anywhere else in the world and feel at home with the Tridrntine Mass in Latin. Learn your faith and the reason and meaning of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and you will not be napping. I can say this because I was a novus ordo until I took interest in learning my faith. One thing was that the Mass is not to make me feel good, it's to please God.
@@exposethetruth1735 you couldn't have said it better. Be blessed
@@exposethetruth1735 How is Latin more pleasing to God? As if God didn't fully understand other languages...
@@DelrienProd But wouldn’t God give a bit extra credit for learning the language that has been the mother tongue of the Roman rite? It’s what has always been passed down, and there is also the English translation if you’re fairly new with Latin. Can’t you at least make an effort to do it for the Lord?
Imagine it this way, if you met your future wife or husband who speaks a different language. And you really love him or her that you took the effort, time, and understanding to learn his/her native language? Not perfectly but at least the effort you put into it, how do you think your partner would feel? Of course he or she would be delighted knowing you put forth the time and effort and even to bother her native language.
It’s also a good thing to consider the sincere intentions of the faithful praying in Latin and should not be looked down upon, that they get out of their way in trying to adapt and learn a different language that was the Roman Rite’s language for so many centuries and doing it out of love and devotion.
Also, if the Eastern Catholic Churches can speak their own language within their Church, why can’t the Roman Rite speak Latin as is the original language?
Not only is Latin more pleasing to God, the Enemy hates Latin! That should tell us something!