I just got everything for Nemesis this week second hand. I’m pretty excited to dive into it. Stretch goal box is necessary and I’m glad I didn’t stop until I found someone selling that box specifically. This game kicks so much butt for so many reasons. I love that tension it provides when people stop being cooperative and the poker faces around the table as we try and find the right time to do so.
I like the semi co-op, but I think it really depends on the game group. My girlfriend and I play and generally try to cooperate as the first priority but have the fallback of making a choice to save yourself as a last-ditch survival. We also take into account the thematic side of each character. The lab rat might be more selfish about her own survival, or the CEO may always lean towards what profits the company. Maybe the medic wants to save everyone but gets a objective to kill everyone, so we create a story where this makes sense, such as the medic has the higher purpose of preventing these from spreading and assumes everyone is infected. It softens the blow of the take that betrayer side of things. The stories created can be a lot of fun. We had one game where she had a larva as the CEO, I cured her as the medic. Turns out she was going to say " I'm a terrible old selfish CEO and was going to betray you but I'm infected so go on without me", but because I cured her she betrayed me with one turn left and pushed me one room away from the rover exit with two actions left (you need 2 to leave)and left me, only to find out the extra card options of the medic allowed me to escape anyways, allowing me to win. We had another, where we all made it to isolation on the last round after an event caused aliens to retreat and fill the bag back up. Then, with one of us rolling a noise encounter and having to draw from the bag, and we were sure it was over. We drew the only blank. The wide-eyed disbelief and whooping around the table was an amazing moment. House ruling can soften the difficulty a little with newer groups, such as starting each character with two free random items(we generally don't do this), or allowing the option to keep both objectives and decide last minute. If you have items, the strategy does come more into play against randomness.
Interesting, I find most co-op games dull and prone to quarterbacking. Everyone having a private objective makes this game compelling and interesting. The vanilla game isnt that hard to beat once people start playing optimally. The system is better than Battlestar Galactic where its an all-or-nothing for the Cylon player. Nemesis allows you to betray a single player but not necessarily all players. So much more player engagement than yawn fests like Spirit Island or Zombiecide.
Why does every game have to have high interaction? Spirit island is my most played game. My only game all of my gaming group wants to play for years now. Also some games have a fair bit of interaction depending on spirits but not every.
Love the semi-coop game. It's very much a play to experience, not play to win as far as expectations go. That's not going to be for everyone, but I have a group that really enjoys this.
Nemesis reminds me of Ghost stories in some ways, and there are some versions of the semi-co-op that I actually like. It's not a typical game in the sense that a typical game gives you agency, it's closer to a simulation in the sense that it asks you what would you do if everything goes wrong? I wasn't a fan the first time I played. however, after multiple plays, I always enjoy the experience of the game. it's more fun afterward.
Have about a dozen games of nemesis half semi and half full coop. Coop to learn and build confidence, AND you are correct probably one of my favorites for story/experience. Favorite semi was son and his friends setting myself and my son up to be killed as the other three giggled laughed, taunted us as they jumped in escape pods leaving the two of us dismembered, surrounded by the queen and others, before becoming jelly on the wall as the ship jumped to hyperactive. Waiting to reunited for lockdown, since those boys have all followed different paths to college, cross finger Thanksgiving or winter break maybe
I would love to play Nemesis but I don't think I want to own Nemesis. Hoping someday I will get the chance to experience it. Thank you all for the chat and the hard work you put in to share it!👍👍
Love the semi co-op. Nemesis is a great game. And its one of the very few games that is actually a horror game rather than a horror wall paper theme. You have plenty of agency in Nemesis, over your actions. But just like in real life you don’t have agency over the game state. And I would argue you can’t if you want true horror game instead of a horror theme. There are only 3 other games I have played that really feel remotely like horror games. Deep Madness, Machina Arcana, and oddly the Night Cage. I am not sure if horror is just a more niche market in board games or it’s just that its mechanically and narratively difficult to do. The co- op is great for learning the game but its just such a sub-optimal way to play it.
The logic is sound but once you've played a game where one of your 'friends' flushed you out of an airlock turn 2 it's tricky to let go of the suspicion in future games. :D (That was a great memory, because he didn't know I had found a spacesuit literally moments beforehand by spectacular luck, and survived.)
I just sold my OG Nemesis for Lockdown. I liked OGs theme more but overall, Lockdown seems more interesting. I sleeved the cards and just reading some of the new character cards got me excited. OG was my favorite board game for a long while (until KDM came along) and selling OG hurt but there just wasn't much reason to keep both. I don't mix base game content and the expansions work with both games so I chose Lockdown.
Dale mentioned he didn't like it solo, but nobody asked him why. Shame.. missed opportunity. Always probe for motivation when somebody expresses an opinion that might go contrary to another's hope or expectation. Mild criticism aside, thank you for this. Great video, great crew.
Speaking of Nemesis, when are we getting a “Nemesis-lite” play through. Mission Catastrophe! That is one of my first backed kickstarters and remember Jesse was really excited for it! I have only played once with my wife and am waiting for family to come over to play it!
One thing to note is that if a player is eliminated, they can play as the enemy. Most of my plays of nemesis have been as a Cooperative game. I believe that way and I hope that lock down improves on that experience.
All fair points, I have a group that loves the semi coop but another group will only play fully coop and then another group that wont play the game due to you dying you are out. I'm glad they got rid of the playing the alien mechanic. I think nemesis lockdown has better mechanics overall but I like the theme better in original nemesis.
It sounds like you played a little bit too quickly at the beginning. We played a bunch of Lockdown and if you use careful movement a lot in the beginning, you can play many rounds without triggering an encounter. We always have weapons or at least other powerful items, when we encounter the first Nightstalker. For us the game mostly feels easy with 1-5 aliens on the board. 5+ is the only moment the struggle begins. So early game is easy, mid game okay and endgame always hits hard
Agreed- people don't use quiet movement or save action points and then are shocked when an alien shows up and cuts their head off as they're busy rummaging in cabinets or throwing switches. You literally set yourself up for failure. The theme in this game runs so deep through so many of its mechanics you have to think like a person stuck in a compound with deadly aliens!
I have found playing semi coop without the corporation cards, means everyone has their own objectives and you aren't trying to kill each other. I really enjoy nemesis. You do need to be cautious, and move into rooms with other people already there so you don't roll noise. I am not sure why you are finding it so hard, its about 50/50 if we have someone die per game but that's usually because they are playing more reckless than they need to.
I think your interview switched to whether they prefer coop / semi coop. And I think you should find someone deeply enjoyed more about Nemesis for this interview
The thing I found out is people play the original game too fast. They rush through it and finish with half the turns left. This makes the game more difficult. You need to slow down, search rooms more for items, craft more items as these items help ALOT, and move less. With that, you are more prepared when an intruder appears.
I get so butthurt when Quack criticizes my favorite game, but I mostly agree with him. It's more an experience than a regular board game, but that's why it's so good!
Depends on your group. We help each other a lot, especially if you are one of the good guys. Even if i have to kill someone, i mostly help them out in the beginning and kill them in style late game. Last game i went through a sector full of Aliens with a friend, just to close him in in the very last room which was on fire, with 2 serious wounds, 1 adult no actions and no items. We all had a blast. But yeah, if you never cooperate, even with good intentions, i can imagine that the game is antifun.
IMO Shira is absolutely correct that player elimination is a design problem / fault. However I think what Nemesis does in including it, is give an added tension that increases the thematic tension. The analogy I give is how Star Trek original series had no tension, because you knew *every single week* that the supposed dire peril would never result in one of the leading characters being killed. Thus the peril lost credibility.
I love both. The biggest problem I have with lockdown is it invalidates what makes aftermath so valuable in the original: the character trait cards. It takes away more than it gives. You have to go into nemesis knowing that you're telling a story, it's not a game, it's a storytelling device.
I think original Nemesis isn't bad as solo game. If one character is not enough, you can play cooperatively with two or more. If you don't like semi-coop Nemesis then play it coop. I think it's good as coop game. The important thing is, you shouldn't expect a normal coop game, it's more a experience than a well-balanced game. I don't like Nemesis Lockdown that much. The theming as story continuation from the first game is weirdly specific with Survivor and Labrat characters. And it adds a lot of fiddly mechanics that seem like worse versions of the original game with more complexity. The basic idea with the station on Mars was neat but it's just the same game with worse mechanics. The original is mechanically and thematically cleaner and cooler. Also, some things went downhill during the Lockdown KS campaign with the pricing and the voting.
Semi-coop is probably my most disliked boardgame mechanic, even more than social deduction. If I want betrayal by people pretending to be friendly, I can just talk to HR. Lockdown sounds fun in actual coop though. Lockdown brings some interesting stuff!
Agree semi coops are terrible by in large! You need the perfect gaminv group otherwise it fails! Only exception shadows over camelot great game and has a potential traitor!
I love semi co-op the tension of backstabbing is great. I'd never play this game in co-op mode.
I agree, same here. I haven't played nemesis yet but currently playing dead of winter and a possible hidden traitor just enhances the experience.
I absolutely agree, I wouldn't play it as full coop.
The comic book story is fine as coop experience and gives you nice background Info for the semicoop. But I agree with you, semi is the best.
Agreed.
Ive only played it coop! So good! Our group is so bad that its like we have a traitor haha
I just got everything for Nemesis this week second hand. I’m pretty excited to dive into it. Stretch goal box is necessary and I’m glad I didn’t stop until I found someone selling that box specifically. This game kicks so much butt for so many reasons. I love that tension it provides when people stop being cooperative and the poker faces around the table as we try and find the right time to do so.
I like the semi co-op, but I think it really depends on the game group. My girlfriend and I play and generally try to cooperate as the first priority but have the fallback of making a choice to save yourself as a last-ditch survival. We also take into account the thematic side of each character. The lab rat might be more selfish about her own survival, or the CEO may always lean towards what profits the company. Maybe the medic wants to save everyone but gets a objective to kill everyone, so we create a story where this makes sense, such as the medic has the higher purpose of preventing these from spreading and assumes everyone is infected. It softens the blow of the take that betrayer side of things.
The stories created can be a lot of fun. We had one game where she had a larva as the CEO, I cured her as the medic. Turns out she was going to say " I'm a terrible old selfish CEO and was going to betray you but I'm infected so go on without me", but because I cured her she betrayed me with one turn left and pushed me one room away from the rover exit with two actions left (you need 2 to leave)and left me, only to find out the extra card options of the medic allowed me to escape anyways, allowing me to win.
We had another, where we all made it to isolation on the last round after an event caused aliens to retreat and fill the bag back up. Then, with one of us rolling a noise encounter and having to draw from the bag, and we were sure it was over. We drew the only blank. The wide-eyed disbelief and whooping around the table was an amazing moment.
House ruling can soften the difficulty a little with newer groups, such as starting each character with two free random items(we generally don't do this), or allowing the option to keep both objectives and decide last minute. If you have items, the strategy does come more into play against randomness.
Interesting, I find most co-op games dull and prone to quarterbacking. Everyone having a private objective makes this game compelling and interesting. The vanilla game isnt that hard to beat once people start playing optimally.
The system is better than Battlestar Galactic where its an all-or-nothing for the Cylon player. Nemesis allows you to betray a single player but not necessarily all players. So much more player engagement than yawn fests like Spirit Island or Zombiecide.
Why does every game have to have high interaction? Spirit island is my most played game. My only game all of my gaming group wants to play for years now. Also some games have a fair bit of interaction depending on spirits but not every.
Love the semi-coop game. It's very much a play to experience, not play to win as far as expectations go. That's not going to be for everyone, but I have a group that really enjoys this.
Nemesis reminds me of Ghost stories in some ways, and there are some versions of the semi-co-op that I actually like. It's not a typical game in the sense that a typical game gives you agency, it's closer to a simulation in the sense that it asks you what would you do if everything goes wrong? I wasn't a fan the first time I played. however, after multiple plays, I always enjoy the experience of the game. it's more fun afterward.
Have about a dozen games of nemesis half semi and half full coop. Coop to learn and build confidence, AND you are correct probably one of my favorites for story/experience.
Favorite semi was son and his friends setting myself and my son up to be killed as the other three giggled laughed, taunted us as they jumped in escape pods leaving the two of us dismembered, surrounded by the queen and others, before becoming jelly on the wall as the ship jumped to hyperactive.
Waiting to reunited for lockdown, since those boys have all followed different paths to college, cross finger Thanksgiving or winter break maybe
Dale is another great content creator that I enjoy watching.
what is his channel?
I would love to play Nemesis but I don't think I want to own Nemesis. Hoping someday I will get the chance to experience it. Thank you all for the chat and the hard work you put in to share it!👍👍
Love the semi co-op. Nemesis is a great game. And its one of the very few games that is actually a horror game rather than a horror wall paper theme. You have plenty of agency in Nemesis, over your actions. But just like in real life you don’t have agency over the game state. And I would argue you can’t if you want true horror game instead of a horror theme.
There are only 3 other games I have played that really feel remotely like horror games. Deep Madness, Machina Arcana, and oddly the Night Cage.
I am not sure if horror is just a more niche market in board games or it’s just that its mechanically and narratively difficult to do.
The co- op is great for learning the game but its just such a sub-optimal way to play it.
"The game is already challenging enough in co-op"
*plays semi-coop"
"wHy ShOuLd I HeLp YoU"
Maybe don't consider everyone in semi-coop as your enemy?
The logic is sound but once you've played a game where one of your 'friends' flushed you out of an airlock turn 2 it's tricky to let go of the suspicion in future games. :D
(That was a great memory, because he didn't know I had found a spacesuit literally moments beforehand by spectacular luck, and survived.)
I just sold my OG Nemesis for Lockdown. I liked OGs theme more but overall, Lockdown seems more interesting. I sleeved the cards and just reading some of the new character cards got me excited. OG was my favorite board game for a long while (until KDM came along) and selling OG hurt but there just wasn't much reason to keep both. I don't mix base game content and the expansions work with both games so I chose Lockdown.
You know original nemesis has a fully coop mode right?
Dale mentioned he didn't like it solo, but nobody asked him why. Shame.. missed opportunity. Always probe for motivation when somebody expresses an opinion that might go contrary to another's hope or expectation.
Mild criticism aside, thank you for this. Great video, great crew.
This was brilliant and wonderfully informative, thank you.
Wow your hair grew back quickly!
Excellent content as usual!
Speaking of Nemesis, when are we getting a “Nemesis-lite” play through. Mission Catastrophe! That is one of my first backed kickstarters and remember Jesse was really excited for it!
I have only played once with my wife and am waiting for family to come over to play it!
One thing to note is that if a player is eliminated, they can play as the enemy. Most of my plays of nemesis have been as a Cooperative game. I believe that way and I hope that lock down improves on that experience.
how does this work? You play as the aliens?
All fair points, I have a group that loves the semi coop but another group will only play fully coop and then another group that wont play the game due to you dying you are out. I'm glad they got rid of the playing the alien mechanic.
I think nemesis lockdown has better mechanics overall but I like the theme better in original nemesis.
It sounds like you played a little bit too quickly at the beginning. We played a bunch of Lockdown and if you use careful movement a lot in the beginning, you can play many rounds without triggering an encounter. We always have weapons or at least other powerful items, when we encounter the first Nightstalker. For us the game mostly feels easy with 1-5 aliens on the board. 5+ is the only moment the struggle begins. So early game is easy, mid game okay and endgame always hits hard
Agreed- people don't use quiet movement or save action points and then are shocked when an alien shows up and cuts their head off as they're busy rummaging in cabinets or throwing switches.
You literally set yourself up for failure. The theme in this game runs so deep through so many of its mechanics you have to think like a person stuck in a compound with deadly aliens!
Winning needs to be less important to you if you want to enjoy this game. Its not about the winner. Its about the head movies.
I have found playing semi coop without the corporation cards, means everyone has their own objectives and you aren't trying to kill each other. I really enjoy nemesis. You do need to be cautious, and move into rooms with other people already there so you don't roll noise. I am not sure why you are finding it so hard, its about 50/50 if we have someone die per game but that's usually because they are playing more reckless than they need to.
kinda wonder what your feelings are towards Lobotomy.
I think your interview switched to whether they prefer coop / semi coop. And I think you should find someone deeply enjoyed more about Nemesis for this interview
Jesse?! How did you grow that much hair so quickly‽
you're welcome :)
The thing I found out is people play the original game too fast. They rush through it and finish with half the turns left. This makes the game more difficult. You need to slow down, search rooms more for items, craft more items as these items help ALOT, and move less. With that, you are more prepared when an intruder appears.
The video seems to be a late upload.
It is - just didn’t have the thumbnail ready for sometime.
How did you grow your hair back that quickly?
I get so butthurt when Quack criticizes my favorite game, but I mostly agree with him. It's more an experience than a regular board game, but that's why it's so good!
Shavin your head was best thing you done Jesse - you don’t look right with hair anymore
Got an idea this game is reviewed by eurogame lovers 8-).
a comment for the algorithm ;)
You talk about the untold stories, but they arent retail are they? appears only were kickstarter. Shame
First thing I check is the timestamps, there just might be a raven egg😜
Semi-coop is fine imho. Most of the time, we get 2/5 of our players winning the game, so I don't think that's particularly crushingly hard.
Semi-Coop Nemesis could also be called Sociopath Mode: Everyone is out for themselves and doesn't care about other people.
Depends on your group. We help each other a lot, especially if you are one of the good guys. Even if i have to kill someone, i mostly help them out in the beginning and kill them in style late game. Last game i went through a sector full of Aliens with a friend, just to close him in in the very last room which was on fire, with 2 serious wounds, 1 adult no actions and no items. We all had a blast. But yeah, if you never cooperate, even with good intentions, i can imagine that the game is antifun.
IMO Shira is absolutely correct that player elimination is a design problem / fault. However I think what Nemesis does in including it, is give an added tension that increases the thematic tension.
The analogy I give is how Star Trek original series had no tension, because you knew *every single week* that the supposed dire peril would never result in one of the leading characters being killed. Thus the peril lost credibility.
I love both. The biggest problem I have with lockdown is it invalidates what makes aftermath so valuable in the original: the character trait cards. It takes away more than it gives. You have to go into nemesis knowing that you're telling a story, it's not a game, it's a storytelling device.
I think original Nemesis isn't bad as solo game. If one character is not enough, you can play cooperatively with two or more.
If you don't like semi-coop Nemesis then play it coop. I think it's good as coop game.
The important thing is, you shouldn't expect a normal coop game, it's more a experience than a well-balanced game.
I don't like Nemesis Lockdown that much. The theming as story continuation from the first game is weirdly specific with Survivor and Labrat characters. And it adds a lot of fiddly mechanics that seem like worse versions of the original game with more complexity. The basic idea with the station on Mars was neat but it's just the same game with worse mechanics. The original is mechanically and thematically cleaner and cooler. Also, some things went downhill during the Lockdown KS campaign with the pricing and the voting.
I like the original A LOT more, I feel that a Lockdown adds a lot of unnecessary rules.
Jesse has hair. Weird. I prefer bald Jesse.
Bald Jesse is so much better.
Exactly my thought. I was confused at first about sudden hair growth.
Is anybody interested in buying the board game including all the expansions brand new unopened with a few extras (all in pledge) $400
Too expensive
Semi-coop is probably my most disliked boardgame mechanic, even more than social deduction. If I want betrayal by people pretending to be friendly, I can just talk to HR.
Lockdown sounds fun in actual coop though. Lockdown brings some interesting stuff!
Agree semi coops are terrible by in large! You need the perfect gaminv group otherwise it fails! Only exception shadows over camelot great game and has a potential traitor!