Jack Kirby and Will Eisner Talk Shop In An EPIC Conversation On the Record. We Unpack It In Detail!
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- čas přidán 16. 07. 2024
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Ditko wrote a well-circulated essay on the creation of Spider-Man, and it's a pretty clear trajectory, in line with the Simon/Kirby practice of reusing and retooling their ideas to keep those pages filled. Per Ditko, Kirby's proffered Spider-Man pages were very much in the mold of the Fly (which in itself had been a variation of the Silver Spider story that C.C. Beck penciled for the studio) and the Peter Parker figure was transformed magically into a hero with a Captain America-style costume. Ditko pointed out the similarity to the Fly, and Stan, who wanted a more "realistic" teen lead ended up giving the character to Ditko, who designed the costume and created the unique mise en scene that distinguished Spider-Man from the bombastic Kirby approach. I think the character's success largely rides on the visual design of the characters and world, which is a reason why it soared and the original Kirby-created X-Men seemed to struggle as a lesser Fantastic Four clone.
Good stuff. One thing I'd be interesting in knowing is how much Eisner cleaned up his own side of conversation. That's something Gil Kane accused Eisner of (according to Howard Chaykin): of polishing his own words more than the people he interviewed. The other thing I'd say is that Kirby's Spider-Man claim is pretty congruent with Ditko's own version, with the proviso that Ditko emphasizes how much he changed the concept. I mean Kirby's version is 1) A Spider-Man idea developed in Simon and Kirby studio 2) they polished and changed it somewhat and shopped it around 3) When Marvel started taking off, Lee asked for more ideas 4) Kirby gave his 5 pages to Lee, who took idea to Ditko. Ditko's version is 1) Lee showed him the Kirby 5 page story. 2) Ditko said it was too close to The Fly character Simon and Kirby did for Archie 3) Ditko took Spider-Man idea but made changes (costume, webshooter, relationship with Uncle/Aunt). The two accounts seem like they fit together -- I would definitely say Ditko deserves 80% of the credit for Spider-Man as he exists, with maybe 15% for Simon/Kirby and 5% for Lee.
Come to Pittsburgh and do a week of videos with us already, Jeet! --Ed
DAMN if this episode didn’t make me sit down at my drawing table and get back to work! You guys are as inspiring as the King himself. I’m here for the Seuling and Fine interviews!
I'm 6'3" and I know exactly what Ed is saying... I don't have time for tiny details!
Great show! Just ordered that Eisner spotlight.
TGIF! Excellent video,guys! I have this book and the Will Eisner dvd! I never met Kirby but we all did through his amazing volumes of work! Met Eisner in Toronto 2004! Super sharp creative business man! Will never burned out and was doing great work to the end! I love your enthusiasm /interesting subjects! Make More Comix! Damn Straight!
This was absolutely great! Thanks boys!
Wally Wood used to specifically keep the 'jacked up' brushes as 'special effects' brushes. You need some random looking shrubbery-- use it to 'dab it in'. You gotta brush that's got hairs splitting off... perfect for a wispy smoke effect--- that sorta thing.
I can't think of any other comic creators anywhere near these masters.
When I was in college, in the very early days of www, I would've had the chance to buy the original art to that title illustration, Eisner drawing himself and Kirby drawing (and inking) himself... I didn't have the money for it, even for the prices back then. Which is of course nothing compared to today...
One of the best episodes.
Just a thought...when you guys dissect Eisner's interview with Lou Fine it might be cool to supplement it with some examples of his stories from Fox Comics or Quality Comics --like The Flame, The Ray, Black Condor, etc.--which are now in the public domain. I don't know if you guys have checked out Gwandanaland Books, but they do a pretty good job of taking public domain Golden Age comics content and scanning the pages from the Digital Comics Museum and packaging them in graphic novel format...also nice in that you can get Smash Comics or Mystery Men Comics or whatever as complete volumes with a variety of characters, or you can custom order The Complete Black Condor or The Complete Flame or whatnot. I've been amassing a 1940s MLJ superhero collection this way--and highly recommend the Jack Cole's The Complete Comet, and also The Complete Fox (which has some early art by Irwin Hassan). They also have a slim volume on an obscure MLJ character called Mr. Satan whose costume seems to be a forerunner to the Wally Wood-designed Daredevil costume! The good thing is the pages are scanned directly from vintage Golden Age and Atomic Age comics--so the coloring is accurate to the original publications and the paper looks like pulp paper!
The auto generated subtitles have your show being called "Cartoonist Cafe". In a parallel universe.....
I’ve also noticed in some vids the captions call him Ed “Piss gore”. Lol
Now I can't help but hear the occasional clinking cups and plates and some murmuring.
Too much think, not enough ink! hell yeah, best piece of advice in the entire clip.
I LOVE YOU GUYS! THANK YOU MORE GOOD STUFF!!!!!
Good one! I'm down for Phil Seuling, Lou Fine... all of it.
That's some Who's Who Lineup on the Shop Talk, there. I should probably try to find that book, somehow...
Thanks for doing this!!!!!
Thanks.
Great video once again :) Joe and Jim Simon’s evidence and recollection of the origins of Spider-man are close to what this interview from Jack Kirby sounds like too (but with added detail of the Harvey Comics connection etc.). Joe outline this in ‘The Comic Book Makers’, and I *think* in Joe Simon’s autobiography (haven’t read it in a while, but definitely a chapter in the former example). Speaking with Simon’s book editor at Titan at SDCC in 2016, Joe was pretty sharp and lucid up until his passing so the detail is there, at least without Kirby’s (understandable) bitterness. Though I’m certain Tom would have least read it for his Kirby bio graphic novel.
I look forward to hearing more of your opinions from interviews in this book!
I'll have to see if I can track down the blue ray - the book is selling for nearly £200!!!
Just writing in to say I fully support more of these Shop Talks. ESPECIALLY the Phil Seuling one.
At 36:05 you guys mentioned that Kirby was 'blackballed' from DC comics. That's something I haven't heard before. Is there a more detailed account of that somewhere?
Haha. What are balloons filled with?… Hot air. Hahaha
Thanks for showing this off. Now I want to find a copy for myself. You guys plan on doing the DC Comics Guide to Writing Comics by Denny O'Neil?
It’d be cool to see Dave Sim on a shoot interview
"Too much think - not enough ink..." Damn, that's cool. Did you write that or pick it up somewhere, Ed?
As usually the Kayfabe giving us the goods!!
I like how they mention that Kane and Toth couldn't learn shit from speaking to Kirby lmao. There's just some people out there who aren't very concerned with the minutia of the creative process because they're too busy making stuff.
Kirby always seemed to me like a guy who just has this iterative, almost automaton process of doing things. The man basically got the point where his mechanical skill and style was so honed that he didn't need to think that much of the analytical process of the craft and instead spent that energy in just getting his ideas out on paper.
Winston Churchill was a member of the aristocracy. He was the son of a Lord and was born in Blenheim Palace for goodness sake.
3 guys on youtube talking about the 'thing in plain sight' not realizing that maybe the creation of a youtube channel and community might make an interesting comic....
I say that with appreciation for the Kayfabe channel..
If you’re into Myers-Briggs personalities, Kirby is typed as INFP alongside Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Miyazaki - shy and sensitive and living fully in his imaginary world, easily rolled by brash extroverts, never able to get over the hurt…