D&D Rules: Are Tool Proficiencies Worthless
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- čas přidán 22. 10. 2019
- D&D Rules: Are Tool Proficiencies Worthless
Nerdarchy examines D&D tools proficiency in 5th Edition. Do that add to the game? Who's job is it to make tools matter? The Dungeons and Dragons player, the Dungeon Master, or maybe both?
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Considering what it is to dismantle prior to any active combat measures....tools & instruments are essential. o_O Neat, Too! (^_^)
I have a question that D&D Beyond does not answer.......how do you feel regarding a player or players suing twenty rings at once? It doesn't show a single resistance percentile on my character's sheet..... (
@@stevenmichaelcunningham4085 you need to have an item attuned for it show up. It shoulf show up under your defenses.
Nerdarchist Dave
Can you do magical tattoos?
one word.... fabricate spell... with the right tools u can do things like make traps in 10 mins, made a necromancer that used this spell along with leather working to turn that dragon we just killed into armor for our party. tool proficiency outside this spell takes too long
One of my players has Smith tools. Session 2 ever played he made a swing set in the square. Got them more social capital in that town than any monster head they ever came back with.
Did they just cut a chain in half an weld it to a plank?
@@nullpoint3346 nope. Forge-welded frame from old Dwarf mining equipment and then yes, attached a logging chain to each seat. Intelligence checks with Smith tools for safety design and strength for manufacturing.
This. Tool proficiencies should be critical for social interactions. Go to a new place and incorporate yourself there so that people are comfortable with you. You're not just some ne'er-do-well hobos, you're journeyman artisans and can help out around town.
Use tool proficiencies in place of social skills to gather information. Brewers tools? Get info at the tavern. Mason? Learn about the strange tunnels under that old tower. Blacksmith? Hear about what's travelers saw on the road while you reshoe their horse. Anything nautical? Talk to the old salts by the docks.
The problem with tools is three fold. First being down time. Down time rarely happens and us usually skipped or hand waved away. The uses of tools tends to lean heavily into home brew territory. Many of the uses for tools are only example lists. Like the poisons you can make with a poisoner's kit. This puts more strain on the DM to flesh out a system for a single tool or multiple tools. The final reason is they either take too long to complete or cost too much to preform.
I once played a Kensei monk that got smith tools. The idea was to have him make his own kensei weapons. I also had an idea for using a jewelers kit to scribe spells onto jewelry for a wizards spell book. Im also working on a proof of concept beast master who uses a poisoner's kit to harvest venom from his animal companion.
I like to throw things like this into games with my kids. My 12 yo GM his first one shot about a civilization of monkeys that were raiding a nearby village. My half orc monk snuck into their citadel and quickly realized that fighting them all was not an option. Cue the painters supplies and a roll in shed monkey hair for an improvised disguise. I didnt really expect success, but Korgan is not so bright and would believe this would work. A nat 20 for the disguise and a quick challenge to the leader and now he is known as Korgan the Monkey King. The best part was seeing it click for the kids that in this game anything is an option.
Personally, I think it's the fault of WotC for making them "tool proficiencies" rather than professional skills (which is what Xanathar's turns them into).
Perfect.
I’ve gotten into AD&D 1e recently and they have something like this called secondary skills
You usually had 1 but you could get 2 if you rolled well for it. Sometimes you’d have none even
But you rolled for it when you made your character. And there were no rules for it, it was just a general idea
Like one was smithing, and if you were buying weapons, the DM might say to that person “you notice this has some imperfections that are clear to you but not to the other characters here. You know this seller is betting on you not noticing and paying full price anyway” or they could make some items, or be able to sell a weapon with fancy talk about the piece. Appraise items for NPCs even.
Gygax just gave these examples and I think it could be that simple with tool proficiencies as well
But yes making them tools makes it less broad
Don't forget that a character's proficiency in a given tool set can apply to roleplaying situations outside of actual tool use. For example, I'm playing an assassin in a game involving clandestine political conflicts. Members of certain guilds were being drugged and kidnapped, and my character used his proficiency with the poisoner's kit (and by extension experience and knowledge) in conjunction with the reported symptoms from some rescued NPCs to deduce what type of drug was used, and he is currently using that knowledge to track down various apothecaries to try and trace buyers and find leads as to who's behind this particular intrigue.
Youre batman
I adore tool proficiencies
We have a guy who has leather working tools we managed to kill some flame drakes and harvested their hide he made some armor for my eladrin bard
The dm decided that it should give fire resistance as it is the hide of a fire resistant monster we also made a large travel pack for our fighter
We went from having a very detailed list of skills/spells to make items/magic items in 3.5 to a lot of hand waving. I have a forge cleric (with a forge that I can access) but the item creation rules are either 1) too much time to make (like good heavy armor) or 2) too vague to figure out. Xanathar's helped but my smithing still isn't a thing and as a forge cleric I was hoping to make it more integral to my character.
AD&D : not enough information on item craft, or just historic unreal.
3.5e : too much information.
later stuff: what is this crap ?
My gaming shops had enough players to have an open campaign setting, where everyone had multiple characters. The town's NPCs were the PCs.
The only reason I'd get poisoner's tools is to harvest, make, and then sell all of the poison because it is worth so much
Well it can be used to analyze and treat poisons effects and to remove poisonous objects from people.
It can be also usefull to non nefarious causes. Say you take a dartfrogs poison to immobelize a beast you are hunting without killing it.
Numbing pain or knowing what plants/berries/foods (lead-sugar in wine) carry a poison. Even so far that atropin for example, widens your pupils giving you better lowlight vision (or for cosmetic effect) but will in higher doses make you ill.
Poisons can also be part of recipes for various things. Like paints, potions, protctive varnishes etc.
Yeah I took the background monster hunter i think its called which, idk why its called that, because its completely based on being ableto sell poisons to wealthy people. Essentially, i think it might've been a homebrew background, but while some backgrounds state you are able to get information or otherwise interaction with a particular group of people in pretty much any town, this one did the same thing, but the target audience was "people who buy poisons" which isn't exactly cheap as it costs 200g in the players handbook. So being able to know how and produce these poisons is actually a crazy powerful way to make money. I was playing a Witcher, so it was kind of necessary to be able to produce poisons and alchemical concoctions. Obviously Tools are a big part of that, but it depends on certain groups.
Some people don't want to sit in town, they just want to fight. In the dungeon masters guide, early on in the book, it describes different advice for adjusting game tailoring to different groups of people. But basically, if your player wants to be a blacksmith, let him be able to craft something. But i would suggest not using the rules in the players handbook, i hate them. 5 gold per day, in order to produce something? That's not worth it when I can go into a random encounter and make 10x that. How easy is it to find a ruby for 200 gold or something in just a random dungeon that seem to be everywhere in this world. Crafting should be producing something useful. But like, the rules say, man, you need to spend a week to just produce 50 gold worth of an item. Like bro. That's the cost of a health potion. Is it really going to cost 1 week to make a potion? That's ridiculous, a lot of campaigns ive played dont even last a full week. Curse of Strahd for example, the entireity of the game might only last 1 week or 2 if its a drawn out game. Because Strahd is this omnipotent being that can be anywhere he wants at any time, and has his own goals. So it's a time-based campaign, its not meant to have you survive a year in barovia. The campaign of Phandelin literally only lasts a few days. Maybe a week. Tyranna of Dragons has like, a week or 2 just in the first couple chapters, so that one is much more drawn out, as is Storm Giatns thunder in which you spend weeks traveling at a time.
So I think any crafting rules are fine as long as they allow you to make practical use of your tools. Honestly? you should be able to use them every day. You're a damn artisan. maybe you can't produce plate mail in 5 minutes, but yeah I agree the rulebook does it terribly.
But so useless.
Rules as Written, some poisons do require you to harvest certain ingredients from specific monsters, but you still need additional ingredients worth half the cost of the potion. Since items sell for half their cost, you can NEVER turn a profit brewing poisons without house rules.
Alternatively, you could leave your party behind for 2 work weeks and spend 50 gold in ingredients so that you can lose an action in combat to give one weapon attack an extra d4 damage against less than half of all monsters.
Once upon a time there was a level 9 druid who finally decided to bust out his herbalism kit. Maybe he could make a healing potion.
"Well yeah, but it will take months and just about all of your gold."
I realised I could literally stand around casting goodberry to sell to caravaners for 100 days and buy several potions from a local shop with the proceeds.
Or just go adventure for a week and have the gold AND potions AND xp AND magic items.
The rules and mechanics for alchemy and herbalism are ridiculously cumbersome. I just wanted to DO something flavorful and useful with something my class gave me. But apparently some healing potions are worth more than the shop they're made in and require the dedication of several generations of morons to craft just to replace a single healing spell once.
The gnome paladin on my team uses his tinkering skills to put all kinds of cool gadgets on his plate mail. Examples are lighters, secret hiding slots for weapons/other objects, slots that open and spill oil/caltrops, built in compass, built in mirror, spikes that can released/retracted for grappling, etc. It is really cool
Side note... the monk on the same team has painter tools. He paints pictures/murals in towns and gives them to people we have dealings with. This has been useful to get in the good graces of those we meet on our journeys
I personally love tool proficiency!
I made a war forged forge domain cleric with the clan crafter background just to get as many proficiency’s as possible.
I love my artificer. Expertise in EVERYTHING.
Its so hard to build a family nowadays ;)
Time to make a Bob the Builder character sheet!
"Bob the builder, can we fix it"!? Looks at obliterated warforged "no, it's fucked"!
I find Forgery Kit is amazingly useful, editing list of nobility and households, altering documents etc. So much fun stuff you can do with it. I mean pretending to be Volo with all the documentation and ID to back it up was hilarious.
In a heavy espionage campaign definitely.
I always liked the idea of taking woodcarving tools to readily make clubs, quarterstaves, and wooden stakes. Easily made back-up weapons just in case.
Not to mention scupltures and the like.
In an on going campaign recently one of the characters contracted Mummy Rot. The party didn't have a means to remove it. The Dm allowed my character an alchemist with high proficiency in Cooking tools, Alchemist Tools and Herbalism tools to alter the effect of a potion of vitality to cure the condition.
That dino shirt def gives advantage on all tool checks in my game
The problem is that tools aren't supported very well by the rules. You can sometimes craft items, but it takes so much time to do it that you can only craft the items during downtime, when you could also buy the item in a store.
Have a (death) cleric right now and he had Smith tools. He's currently going around finding the right pieces to make his scythe (glaive). The tooth of a dracolich, skull of a lich, branch of a hangman's tree from the underworld, and various other pieces. After he has all the pieces (definitely a quest) and a much higher level he's gonna use his divine intervention and a ring of three wishes to ask the God's and Goddesses of war and death to help him make this item(artifact). So the tools and quest and everything are kinda a side quest of his to make a magic item that's unique to him and the game. I think it's alot of fun.
Great idea! Gonna talk to my dm about something for my forge cleric
Seems fun. I know we say its a weapon so must be smithings tools. But seeing as how none of the items are metal smithing seems to be one of the worst tool profiencies for this (still probably should give something since its a weapon) Leather work tools tinkerer's tools and woodcarvers tools should all be more suited to this in ascending order. maybe some times spent studying the breaking and carving of bones. But then again we can just put all those things in the gods hands literally.
my favorite character has expertise in knitting tools and wields adamantine needles. Recently she just upgraded her half plate to have White Dragon Scales as the under cloth piece of the armor giving her a resistance to cold. I rolled exceptionally high (how can you not with expertise?) so it is also super high quality and great looking. She has also made clothes for kings, queens, Demons, Devils, and Deities... and it helped with negations quite a bit.
Conquering the world with knitting tools. You, sir, really know what DnD is about.
I've only really theory crafted this as a DM, but some Tools are extremely potent if you get the Fabricate spell as a Wizard, or as the Forge Cleric. In short, to create something like Diamonds, you need immense heat, pressure, earth, carbon and time. Fabricate lets you bypass the time part, and you can get the rest of it by combining lava and coal. My estimate is that those would only get you a foot cube of uncut gems, probably encased in rock.
That's when Jewellers tools come in when you cast Fabricate again - this time turning the uncut gems into cut gems. Because you can only make a single 'object', you'll end up with a single but large gemstone. It's probably worth less than the naturally forming real deal (the same way cubic zirconium is worth far less than real diamond) but being able to manufacture gemstones for spell components (like the diamond required for the Gate spell) just needs some cheesy magic.
Granted, a reasonable DM could also say that lava and coal isn't enough, or that the created gemstone would be of subpar quality. Close enough for me as a DM.
The hard part would be the pressure, time to call up a wizard friend.
You nerds are so much fun to watch and listen to! Thank you for all the work you put into these.
When I DM I strive to include my players' tool proficiencies. Even if that's just reducing the DC on other checks if PC has an associating tool proficiency that might be relevant. Also downtime (like the rules in Xanathar's) is such a great way to incorporate tool prof or creating hooks.
I feel a lot of the issue is the way that Tools are tacked onto the system it feels really clunky... I did attempt one campaign where I moved them to be a third tier of specialisation below Attributes / Skills. And altered it so every test was on a Skill but having a specialisation gave Advantage. SO Picking a Lock would be Slight of Hand with advantage if you had Thieves' Tools. Spotting a weird smell in wine might be Perception with Advantage if you had Poisoner Kit. It worked quite well if you adjusted Target Numbers up a bit to take account of it. It also allowed you to use Languages in a similar way. Lets say you were dealing with Dwarves, having the Dwarven Language might give Advantage to rolls to gain Insight on what a Dwarf was thinking or to Persuade a Dwarf as you have a better insight into their culture.
I base it on physical attributes though the tools & such their self clearly can give an advantage as well...but also a disadvantage considering experience. Well met.
I generally like this system, but for me, the advantage system proves to be clunky again. Take pickpocketing: having special small blades and hooks, in other words tools should give an advantage, having an accomplice distract the mark also should give an advantage. The advantage system doesn't allow the thief to benefit from both things and it doesn't make a difference if the thief just has a sharp knife or elaborate professional tools.
@@AlexBermann Also the issue of double proficiency. I was allowing 3 dice but only when not under stress.
I like this thought, thank you!
@@AlexBermann TBH that is the issue with the Advantage System across the board, there is no bonus for multiple things giving Advantage, such as a Rogue sneaking up behind someone and also Flanking them.
Great advice! I've been playing the UA battlesmith artificer and they get a ton of tool proficiencies AND expertise with their tools and am trying to use them as much as possible. We set up a trap inside a small cave/Temple and I was able to use my Smith's and woodworkers tools to build a trap wooden gate attached by rope and pitons that we used to close the entrance once the enemies were lured into the cave. I've also been able to use my Smith's tools during a downtime to built an adamantine shield for our cleric, but I really like the idea of using them in combat or right outside of combat.
Sadly in my games tool proficiency ends up being a background to a character more than a use while adventuring. Wich is still using it, just not overtly. I still use 3.5 rules for crafting if any party brings it up, mostly because i know them intimately from my artificers.
Why to help incorporate them.
* Have the DM write down or remember players have these along with their backgrounds.
* Give players with these knowledge, checks, or advantage on "knowledge type" checks. If a group enters a one old room with broken stone tombs containing skeletons in armor... immediately give the stonemason the fact that the stone was broken only a few weeks ago, the smith that the armor is some 300-400 years old and probably functional, etc. and then give history rolls.
* Allow using the tools for minor repairs (or destruction) on items. Bars, locks, stone walls, etc. if they have the appropriate tools and skills.
* Put in the occasional skill check which is specifically going to use it. There is a large climb coming up and the PCs find some broken harnesses (leather working) and rusty pitons (smithing). Maybe the find a body next to a cart with a symbol of a ale maker guild and get a reward for returning it.
* Discounts or some type of advantage when buying items. Maybe the find a vendor selling cheap weapons (which break on a 1).
* Try putting the PCs in a lower-level situation where they don't have equipment. Escaped prisoners, ship sinks with their equipment, etc. Suddenly savaging equipment, making crude weapons, etc. matters. Even if temporarily -- a teleport room which doesn't bring their equipment with them.
Great ideas and examples.
Nerdarchist Dave
I have one game where I play a monk who is a cook, the entire party has leaned into the tool proficiency in that they talk up his cooking and have him cook at taverns to help discount our lodging and such.
I'm in a campaign where the DM isn't letting us craft so with my assassins poison kit proficiency I talked him into giving me double the uses of poison from one vial so I get 6 poisoned bolts and the poison doesn't wear off. I was good with that compromise
In the last game I played in, we were warned of harpies. Using my jeweler's tools and a candle, I was able to fashion the wax into earplugs for the group.
I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention the section of Xanathar's Guide on tools. Woodcarving Tools have been invaluable as a proficiency, mainly because it lets my archer deal with longer dungeons or trips out of civilized areas without needing to haul a massive pile of ammunition with her...and it's nice to not need to pay the archers upkeep of ammunition.
I have a spy themed character (whisper bard/ assassin rogue) that uses the herbalism kit and the poisoners kit to find poisonous plants and create his own poison for him and his party.
Poison can be extremely potent for combat/ for avoiding combats that are too dangerous for the party.
for those interested:
want to go to:
assassin 6, whisper bard 14
gives me almost full sneak attack progression plus all the bard stuff and proficiency/ expertise in almost everything.
He is a changeling spy, that is employed together with the rest of the party to spy on and infiltrate an enemies nation on the brink of war.
He disguises himself as a diplomat and the rest of the party as personal guards, so we can poison wells, steal information or manipulate letters (forgery kit) to weaken the enemy nation before they can invade.
Usually I am a pacifist, only on solo missions with my GM I kill (together with the party I try to manipulate the combat subtelly without being found out)
A bard assassin who’s trying to make poison for himself and his followers? Jim Jones? 🤔🤔🤔
I use tools and tool proficiency all the time in my games. I do this as a player, as well as a DM.
Many of my players (in the games I DM) take also tool proficiency and I have them make a lot of checks with them. I have a homebrew race (The Olmec - half human half gnome) with a natural proficiency to Alchemists's Supplies and Tinker's Tools. That player also took through his background proficiency with a Herbalism Kit.
When they encounter some weird device, or that character is doing a check to see if they can identify some kind of substance or even some arcane products, they do the relevant check and they get to either add their proficiency bonus to it, roll with advantage or -in some cases- even get Expertise in that skill for that particular instance. All this, because they are proficient with tools and/or kits and they take the time and effort to use them (and also to describe how they are doing it.)
Tools in my games are always useful, my players know this and they are used A LOT!!!
I love tool proficiency and use them in different way to help me build characters, with character.
Examples of how i'm using it right now are,
My Dwarf cleric of war, has Brewing. He Always has Create food/water at the ready. He also travels around with a large covered wagon (with his Brewing supplies and 5 barrels) drawn by 2 horses. And his trusty donkey which has one keg ready to drink from. Every morning he takes last watch and makes breakfast for his group and brews more beer for the following week.
Break down - barrels hold 40 gallons, Create food/water makes 30 gallons of fresh water, use 25 gallons for brewing daily. At 2 silver pieces a gallon i make 5 gold pieces of beer a day. Cost me 1 brewer's supplies (20g) every 8 days. But i make 200 gallons of Ale, priced at 40g.
Now if i wanted to, i could sell it for money. But, no no....that's Frost-breads' Finest Ale. I use it as Ice breakers, or as parting gifts to people we run into. Telling them "Enjoy Frost-breads' Finest Ale, a great drink to enjoy with any and all travel fare. Request it from your local barkeep, shipped out of Triboar!"
BTW i built this character all around this, So I made a custom background by mixing Knight (Retainer), with Guild Artisan/Merchant. I have 3 npc dwarfs that watch the wagon, and gear when we can't. I'm also training them on how to brew beer, so they can run my shop. Sometimes i have to pay local Hirelings to keep watch over the wagon, if i have to leave it somewhere.
Aside from that i have a Wizard, Painter. That paints each day, refining a work till it is at the value i want to sell it at. Normally i'll spend 50-100 gold at town, for the supplies for one painting. So in 20-40 days I'll have a painting to sell for 100-200 gold. Helps him trade for new spells, and the cost of inscribing spells into my spell book.
Also have a Warlock that does not Sleep, and has Jeweler's tools. Love this one. When we find a 5, 25, 100,... gem out in the adventure. Awesome!! That is all i need for the supplies!! Double the value of any gem we find. Divide by 5 and that's how many days to double the value. By Cutting the stone down. Refining the Cut. Dividing the Stone into small ones and placing them on necklace, earring, rings, the sky is the limit.
As you can see, i use tool proficiency in many ways, but mostly to accent my characters. And give them character, and something to build off, or around. I also use a lot of custom backgrounds to help me refine my skill choices. Hope shine a little on tools proficiency for someone out there. and happy gaming!
Some of the stuff that I did with my characters tools proficiency, when I WAS a player, were -
- Valdriffa Farthelhime, A viking shield maiden (Fighter), who did woodworking back in her village to maintain her family hut and aid those around her as well. She was also skilled at maintaining boats. During the adventure, she would maintain her wooden shield, which was just as important to her as any of her metal weapons. She had also used her wood working knowledge to help patch roofs of fix wagon wheels in exchange for knowledge. I remember one time we came across a caravan while on the road. We all set up camp together and Valdriffa went to help fix the wagons. We got a bit of gold and a bit of information about the area we were going to (Where they had just come from). It was VERY helpful and really fun.
- This character concept I haven't been able to play out yet. However, it would be an elf with woodworking skills as well (I'm noticing a theme in my own work o.o). However, elves spend a LOT of their lives trying to perfect their craft. I would imagine, my elf ranger would have spent her time perfecting her skills in wood working. That she could not find the RIGHT wood in her home town to form the PERFECT bow. That she would go out and travel the world SEEKING the perfect wood for the bow and go on adventures because of it. That she would also criticize the craftsmanship of any wooden building she entered. That if she found any creaky chair or offset table she would become OBSESSED with fixing it because elves can become fixated on particular things. She would be a relatively old elf but because of her passion for wood crafting, she would know VERY little about the world and how things work outside of her shop - thus why she would be able to be old and still be level 1 as a ranger.
Not to be a stickler, but most of the things you describe Val doing would be Carpentry tools, not wood working, buildings and ships Carpentry, her shield, sure wood working.
xanathar's guide to everything expands on tools and DM's guild and Drivethur RPG have some great homebrew stuff.
I love the tools and tool kits in D&D. As a DM, I make it a point to give the PCs opportunities to successfully use their tools. It is almost always lots of fun and helpful.
I put this video off because of the topic. Big mistake on my part. Great job and has given me ideas on incorporating them into future adventures.
What about the Tool section of Xanathar's Guide?
Absolutely essential to making full use of tools. Really solves the main problem of certain skills being more about the tool than the tool itself. One can easily imagine the party negotiating with a local crime lord and managing to possibly get what they want, IF they are willing to bet their fortune in a game of cards. Bluffing, goading, decoding and cheating is all part of the game relian on different ability scores and often many different proficiencies. With proficiency in playing cards, you can choose to add that proficiency to any check, even if you normally aren't that good at calling someone's bluff. If you're normally good at these things outside the game, you can bring it too the game and have synergize if you're also proficient with the game.
In the background, the bard and expert violin player is providing atmosphere but, being a born entertainer, she's also incorporating dance and showmanship into her performance and gaining advantage on the check.
She sings the ballad of the young rogue assassin, not generally skilled with medicine, managing to stabilize the the cleric who was just knocked out by the poisonous breath of a green dragon.
As an addendum to my previous post, I would like to add that I think those tools are very useful.
I like to make characters that are intellectual powerhouses. They are mostly Knowledge Clerics, Wizards of all Kind or Sorcerers, and I almost, always build them as the well-round scientist. So, most often I try to get proficient with Alchemist's Supplies, Herbalism Kit, Healer's Kit and Poisoner's Kit.
As such, my Cleric or Wizard is not only good in all things religious and/or arcane, but also in chemistry and alchemy (Alchemist's Supplies), Pharmacy (Herbalism Kit and/or Healer's Kit) and toxicology (Poisoner's Kit). Every today chemist or pharmacist or doctor has a knowledge and understanding of chemistry, pharmacy and toxicology and I try to emulate this in my learned PC's.
I once played a Rock Gnome based Iron Man and got proficiency with Tinker's Tools and Alchemist's Supplies, using those things to "improve" on my "suit of armor".
Another time, I played a samurai-like fighter who was skilled in Calligraphy. We had to secure the aid of a local noble and because my character had also the noble background and proficiency with calligraphy, my character wrote him a letter. The DM made me do a persuasion check WITH ADVANTAGE because my character was using his Calligraphy Tools to redact a well-written lettre. I rolled high and we had the assistance of the noble in our boss fight!
So, yes, I my opinion, tools are still very useful in D&D and I like to give them a lot of love. ;)
Yeah, these are good points. If I'm going to utilize tool proficiencies, then I'm going to do it in maintenance and material gathering. If you want gems or metal for items, then stone mason's tools will be paramount in extracting that ore, smithing or gem cutting tools to turn that into a valuable item, even cartographers tools for more easily find a way around the wild.
You guys make incredibly informative and entertaining videos. My party wants to go into World of Darkness, and I'm looking for a feed like yours in that category to up my game as a storyteller for Hunter and Promethean. Any suggestions?
Great video guys.
I have a Cleric of the forge rock gnome... Has Blacksmiths tools & Tinker tools. He uses Blacksmiths tools to make armor and weapons & then he uses his tinker tools to add a bunch of moving parts and hidden mechanisms to his armor and weapons making him a little steam punk Ironman.
He also has Carpenter tools & maintains maintenance on the party's ships and wagons. He also uses the above skills to outfit vehicles with armor & weapons. Everything must be armed to the teeth.
Uses his forge abilities to turn all scrap metal or metal objects into ingots. To him a piece of rusty metal is as valuable as some magic item as far as loot goes.
I like th rides of skinning/leather working highlighting a weak point. Though maybe the outcome could be you crit On 19 and 20 o that type of creature, can be active on one type at a time
The look on the DMs face when I took down an iron door then turned it into a set of plate armor
I love tool's because I love crafting. Herbalism Kit, Smith's tools, alchemist's supplies, etc. Thankfully, I've had cool DMs that give me opportunities to use them but it's something I have to bring up that I want to do.
in my case i just got weaving prof to get my goliath paladin to get a hobby kniting, even got some golden thread for it, mostly useless, but i'm not the only one that got entertained by the idea of a beefy paladin spending his free time kniting and making mats or sweaters
You can also try making earmuffs for those times the party needs it, like with banshees, harpies, and false hydras. That’s what I used mine for. It was nice.
I play as a warforged fighter(the rune knight but was a pladin before) he has expertese in smithing tools.
If he isn't hurt to bad and the party takes a long rest he instead spends the night working on weapons and building swords and armour.
currently he is working on special armour for his goat.
Remember that this is a magic world and the ability to use a tool is subject to magical enhancement. Making the smithing tools useless outside of a stationary forge is garbage. Make those smithing tools come with a magical mini forge. The process doesn’t have to take days. It’s a game. Make it a reasonable time and let time pass. You control the passage of time in your world.
Level up the tool skill. The more they use the tool and the better they use it give it upgrades or sell them upgrades to it.
Let the player be creative but keep it logical. If a creature you kill has a neat ability that they think could be derived from it and they have been leveling up their leather working tools let them go for it.
If the player wants to harvest parts from a magical creature for alchemy let them try. Sometimes giving them a weird curveball ability on a bad roll can be more fun than the target ability.
It’s a game and a world you control. Make it a good one.
One of my groups is in the beginning of a Water Deep campaign and we are starting to get into the business side of Water Deep and that is a place where Craft/Professions/Tool Proficiency come into play because all the different artisan guilds and businesses you can start up and run. My character and his dad are both have the Knight(noble) background and are Cavalier Fighters. Dad runs a horse ranch breeding some of the best horses in the area for w/e you need. And now my character being raised in the business is trying to expand it a bit by having a store front and stock in Water Deep itself so when someone from WD buys from us they can see and pick a horse themselves instead of us having to make a 200+ mile trip down to WD from the ranch. While there is no tools to go with animal husbandry, you can get the idea that if you want to incorporate tools into your game more let characters that want to actually try to build up a business or something. Like a tortle character being an architect or builder of some kind, which could then have the synergy of looking at a tunnel or ruins and determining the risk of TPK by cave in, or how long the fort walls can hold against the current level of bombardment.
16:24 The f@&king bass is F@&KING RAW!
Playing a Fighter Gunslinger, my tinkers tools are arguably my characters defining trait. He creates all his own guns and ammo (the DM decides the prices and I keep track of everything I could craft, the DM retcons prices as needs be) and my DM has allowed me to create entirely new items if my character int is high enough, high enough proficiency, enough resources, enough time, ect. He even crafts specialized items for each of the party members that compliments them in small ways. He trained the rouge (After a year in game time, probably 6 months in real time) in proficiency with firearms then created him a sniper. All of this of course depends on our DM being open to HB his own mechanics and having a extremely deep understanding of the rules so as not to break the balance. Super fun though and that is what our DM prioritizes when we’re playing DND so he’s not scared to mess up and retcon himself a moment later in the name of adventure.
My current character is proficient with cooking. it has been used to great effect during down time to get the local guards on side. But we have also assumed that my character has a good sense of smell which is useful for perception checks.
A character of mine is a Gambler; of course he is Proficient with playing cards, and that's a proficiency that can easily come in handy during a game, just for fleecing a few NPCs at the Three Dragon Ante table.
Tool Proficiencies can also come in handy to recognize quality work, see if someone has actual training in their trade, figuring out what was where in old ruins. ("The brewery was over here, which means this was likely a granary here, and a stable over there, and a tavern here. They actually made the barrels here. Bugger if I know what that building was, though." "Probably a jeweler's shop; there's the remains of a furnace there, and an anvil, but they're way too small for properly working iron or steel; gold and silver would be more likely.")
But it requires a bit of comprehension as to what you would and would not know about as peripheral knowledge to the tools themselves.
I actually added a first level conjuration spell which can be cast as a ritual, and has the ability to summon tools for 24 hour, and require proficiency to use. So the key difference between this spell, and the ones you can carry with you is that this spell summons an entire tool array meaning when you want smiths tools you summon the standard of hammers and other instruments, but you also a strait forge and smelter meaning you can melt down none magical ore or metal and do more than pound a blade into shape or make basic repairs. I tend to let my players have a lot of fun crafting non-magical items with special effects for them to use. For example one of my players wanted to turn a Basalisk's hide into a cloak to get advantage on saving throws against being paralysed, stunned, or petrified which I let him do.
I enjoy incorporating tool proficiency in related skill checks, for example if you have masonry you have advantage on search checks (find traps/secret doors) in stonework structures and carpentry affects wooden structure search checks. and for crafting potions and the like using "ingredient levels" once a character has identified the effects of a component he knows the item level of that ingredient so say someone makes a basic alchemists fire the ingredient list is basic vial (level 1 "container") methanol (level 1 "catalyst") raw sulfur (level 1 "active ingredient" [combustible]) will make a vial of alchemist fire, however it'l expire after 12 hours, a higher level vial increases the "shelf life" a higher level catalyst will affect how the effect works, affect a larger area or have a longer duration and a higher level active ingredient will deal more damage so obviously a leveled acid creates a acid grenade etc.
I rule for crafting something like that, crafting takes 1 hour and provided you have the materials and quality tools you can create batches, a basic alchemists kit you might be able to make a batch of 2, an intermediate set might make 3 an advanced set make a batch of 3 but only requiring the materials for 2 (except container) an expert set makes a batch of 4 requiring the materials for 3 an master set will make a batch of 4 with the ingredients of 2.
I love tool proficiencies and I have to admit I'm rather disappointed in the base rules handling/usefulness of crafting. having said that it is DnD so if u don't like something, house rule that shiz.
Hey y'all, this is really helpful, I want to get my party and DM use these more, they're such a perfect way to roleplay your character and the other, "mundane" skills they have and connects them to the world. Is it possible to get THAT newsletter you mentioned? I just signed up for them, but I'd really like to have one, to present to my party and dm :) Thanks for your wonderful content, you're explaining stuff really well for a bit of noob like I am!
My wood elf Monk meditates by using her weavers tools to make her own clothes. It's all in the flavour.
And when it comes to long term plans, she can build custom disguises and stuff so, useful :)
I had a Deep Gnome Monk/Rogue/Ranger that was a cobbler, i use the Xanathar's and repaired the shoes of the party to travel further, made concealed weapons in the shoes (reminescense of a weapon in 3.5 ed, Complete Adventurer or Scoundrel i think). My character was to become a expert dungeoneering/shadow hunter, i hunted monstrous creatures and made shoes from their leathery skin like Darkmantles and Displacer Beasts. The idea was to made normal and magically enchanted boots, combining ranger spells and Shadow Way monk spells/abilities to enhance and provide those things to the party. Fun character it was!
Also i'm thinking of making a Warforged Clan Crafter Forge Cleric 2/Necromancer X, the concept is that it was created for the purpose of helping in architecture/masonry, so it has mason's tools as subrace, then after the fall/dissapearence of Lantan it got no more work, so he find it with the dwarves and became an aprentinces tinkerer for a master following a dwarven god of the forge. Something happens to the dwarven comunity and he was alone again, it wanted to rebuild the dwarven and gnome comunities where he learned. The idea it came was to seek ancient dwarven tombs and rise them up! Dwarven mummys! Well skeletons with scale armors and crossbows at first xD (3 Tools and necromancy!)
Made a Forge cleric,and before the start I consulted with the DM about crafting. He said, he is copying the witcher way: kill a moster,cut off something from him, and u can make a weapon or armor from it. I made a crossbow from a possessed Pinocchio monster,using his wooden material,some metal,and his wires
During their voyage across the sea my fighter inquired about learning how to navigate the ship and after a month of traveling by boat I gave him proficiency in navigation tools. The next session they docked their boat on an island for repairs and supplies. A dryad; said they could have the supplies if they went out to fetch one of her stolen mandrakes. They ended up lost in the woods and my fighter decided to try and use his navigation tools to orient themselves. They were in the feywild so it was a hard check as the constellations shift but with the bonus to his tools he got them all through the woods unerringly.
It is up to the players to detail their tool kits. Artisan tools as an example are tools for a specific trade, have the player come up with a trade the character is proficient with and name the "profession" Tools kit. Carpenter, Mechanic, Mason, Surveyor, etc... With the disguise or forgery kit for example, those are more specific so Less specification is required... Just look at the Tool kit, and if it requires some more detail, add it for your character.
In my current campaign, all magic weapons can only attune to one person, and it has to happen at creation. All enchanted weapons require gems to hold the enchantment. When one of my players chose the folk hero background she asked me what to choose for her tool proficiency. I advised her to choose the jewler's kit. Now she can identify gems for their worth and also retrieve them so they can be used in other magic weapons.
Smith tools are good for reducing equipment costs as your character can make them him/her self and you can turn raw materials into useable ones to make said equipment
I took proficiency in poisoners kit and used said proficiency to harvest venom from a purple worm the look of shock on my face when the GM gives me three vials of purple worm venom each costing 2000 GP at which point the GM realizes that the cheapest venom available is the basic poison which costs 100 GP and then the GM's face when he realizes I have been walking around with 43 basic poison vials worth 4300 GP in a bag of holding and that is how I broke the in game economy with stupid amounts of poison
A lot of things in 5e feel underdeveloped. Crafting was, as far as I'm aware, purposefully hamstrung. Not having "rules" in place causes DMs to not want to deal with figuring it out making their own rules, so they just don't use them. this underdevelopment also makes table to table vary different. One thing about 3rd ed, all the rules made it so most things were consistent table to table, you want to do something; there's a rule for it.
My thoughts for tool usage, first you have tools to craft an item like smith tools to make a sword.
Next is knowledge of what the tools can do like using weaver's tools to perform a medicine check by literally stitching up a wound.
Then knowledge that comes with the trade such as using an investigation check on a parchment with illegible handwriting and using your knowledge of calligraphy tools to figure out what it says.
Then using knowledge of one proficiency with tools of another such as calligraphy knowledge with smith tools to etch a design into the blade of the sword to increase it's selling value, or being able to make a flute from woodcarvers tools because your character can play a flute and knows how big the wholes need to be and where for it to be tuned correctly.
Combat is mostly attack and spells though readying traps can be a thing just hard since not all tools are used for the attack. Disguise kit you can attack disguised yes but you aren't using your disguise kit to attack, though while they are unconscious you could use disguise kit to hide the cause of their injuries or investigate an injured person using knowledge of disguise kit find if any thing is a red herring.
I made a dwarf artificer battle smith with clan crafter background and later multi-classed into battle master. After all that I have like 7 tool proficiencies. I make EVERYTHING for my party now.
11:40 Being able to analyze a dead creature to discover a weak point, this is actually an ability in the homebrew Witcher class, it's a Beastiery, you spend 5 minutes analyzing a living or dead creature, and if you do, you add pretty much, all that information to your beastiery, which you then, have special beastiery dice, sort of like superiority dice, which can only be used against creatures in your beastiery, to either increase or a decrease a roll, depending on which homebrew version of the class you use, or how you want to nerf the class at the table.
I think the Witcher homebrew class is worth looking at, as it specifically uses a lot of different tools, in ways you guys are talking about. Alchemic tools, poisoners kit, observing animals, the witcher in the games was also capable of blacksmithing, leatherworking, even able to smith himself special silver blades. Bombs which would be tinkers tools or something similar like artificers use. A very tool based class, that is currently, only homebrewed, and will never be official. But, you could make a character based on that class, to try out different ways to make tools work in dnd 5e in more impactful ways.
I used tinker tools as an improvised lock picking kit. Had a higher DC due to taking the lock apart as opposed to just unlocking it.
I had a game where at first the rest of the table didn't like me using tools because it took a min but by the end of it everyone wanted to have one thanks to me having Smith alchemy and tinkering tools my wizard would use catapult to launch a vase made of pewter filled with vials of alchemy fire acid ballbearings and gunpowder
Slow down mister warcrime, fire and acid is one thing but ball bearings?
@@AGrumpyPanda yep made a flingable claymore or a grenade if you will with elemental damage it was awesome
I let people replace checks or add to checks if it could involve their tool proficiency. i.e. jeweler, advantage on charisma or wis checks to sell or buy jewels because your training lets you know how and where to push the price. Taking a page out of numenera skills
I use Smith's and Carpenter's tools all the time in my sessions. Caltrops, weapons, repairs, carts, wagons, bridges. Cartographer's tools to keep from getting lost during travel. But the biggest problem with crafting-centered tools is the built-in crafting system. Items essentially require the same cost to craft as they would cost to buy outright, PLUS the time to make the item itself which is a long time. And magic items are out of the question entirely, as the crafting rules are specifically for _mundane_ items.
I once played a wizard whose parents were successful tailors who taught her the trade. During the campaign, she made/mended/altered garments for various party members; sewed, embroidered, and enchanted her own bag of tricks, and used her understanding of fashion to help figure out a variety of different elements within the game (peoples' social status, how old something was, etc.)
Tremor Sense versus Musical Instrument (you could "blind" the creature)
I think it's up to the player a lot of the time in order to make tools more important.
I had a character who during every rest would cook for the party however he would cook what they had killed that day. Which caused quite the interesting role playing when they realize they were eating zombies. Another character who had thieves tools would build traps around the camp to protect them when they sleep. One of my characters would make portraits of the other characters while they were on watch. My most recent character has Prophecy with Smith tools which he uses to find imperfections in locks and then punch in that weak point to break them. DM gave me a Advantage for this but I've stopped asking for it because at this point I have a + 10 to Athletics and I'm worried I might tick the DM off.
Side note: I think you mean proficiency, not prophecy.
I've recently made a warforged gunslinger atificer from a black smiting artisan guild they are a personification of my love of crafting.
If your a dexy character you might be able to use leather working tools or swiths tools to damage armor by knowing where to hit
Tool proficiencies are real great for themes, in his Which Ninja series Gaijin Goomba mentions how Shinobi typically crafted their own weapons, even going as far as to mention how different clans had their own secret crafting techniques that were not to be shared with anyone. To me, the idea that a character learned a specific craft, hence the tool proficiency they have, but learned certain crafting secrets because of just who or what their instructor really opens up a lot of interesting roleplaying opportunities. Maybe a knife your character with smithing proficiency had hallmarks so similar to the person who taught them they are now being hunted by someone because they want to know the smithing secrets of your character's mentor in the art of smithing, or maybe, like the ninja explanation above, the way you craft an item is a specific way that only those of your family do and nobody outside that side of the family is permitted to know those crafting secrets. Or maybe you just like crafting so much you took multiple tool proficiencies and the main reason you became an adventurer is to seek out the crafting secrets of others.
When you take the Criminal/Spy background you automatically get access to a tool proficiency of your choice, which works out great for someone who really wants that tool proficiency, same goes true for the Clan Crafter and Guild Artisan backgrounds, and when you take the Forge Domain as a Cleric you automatically get smithing proficiency. So, what if the spy/criminal learned those secrets in secret themself if they weren't taught as part of their backstory? What if the guild has specific crafting secrets they don't like sharing without outsiders? What if the Clan of the Clan Crafter has clan specific crafting secrets that just aren't allowed to be shared with anyone outside the clan? What if over the course of your character's practice of their craft they developed secrets that no else knows, and they are very careful about share knowledge of these crafting techniques, even with the rest of the party?
Tool proficiencies mean your character knows a craft, and crafting has just so many fun roleplaying opportunities. As part of the reason for a character I helped a friend make ended up with the rest of the adventuring party I helped them make, we have a Forge Domain Cleric that literally wants to do nothing but craft but basically got dragged out on the adventure by the rest of the party, all she wants to do is craft but she has quickly found she is the most responsible person there, despite being basically kidnapped, and has realized that if someone responsible isn't there to reign in the rest of the party something bad is most definitely going to happen to a lot of people, if not the party themselves, so now she is stuck playing the Team Mom for a group fools she wants nothing to do with all out of her sense of responsibility, but as soon as someone reasonably responsible comes along and joins the party she is going try and book it as far away from these idiots as fast as possible. And since we made her a Guild Artisan, she has proficiency in Tinker's Tools along with the Smithing proficiency she got from the Forge Domain. This is a character I want to see played, just because of everything we came up with as a result of her being a crafter.
So tool proficiencies are awesome if the player engages with the game world and actually thinks about the possibilities?
So ... like the entire rest of the game then?
The big issue is that a lot of the rules show good ways to engage with the world, but the tool proficiencies just say, "here they are, do something"
I think the main problem is that all participators of the game, players and DMs alike, have a hard time envisioning the situation to apply the tool proficiency to begin with.
On average I would suggest that tool proficiencies are not required: you don't need to know how to use Carpenter's tools to board up a door, or Culinary supplies to cook a meal, or drum musical instrument to clap along with the bard; that being said, if the character does have the appropriate tool proficiency for the task required, I could see that character passively picking up ancillary supplies to make the task possible, unless the character specifically bought those supplies (the characters want to board up the door to stop the orcs chasing them, did they think to buy nails at the store previously? If not let the carpenter have some tucked away)
Also as DM, even if the player doesn't think of using a tool proficiency creatively, you could suggest examples [to the player with the appropriate proficiency directly, verbally call out that due to their knowledge of this profession, they get extra clues/help in this situation] as soon as the tool proficiency is shown by the DM to actually matter in situations, players will respond.
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I blame AL for my lack of tool use. Artificer will help a bit but thieves tools fpr traps Smith's tools if I want to make weapons as a Forge cleric or a wizard and cartographers tools because I one time had a DM say I couldn't make a good map otherwise. Now with Artificer I try to have at least thieves, smiths,tinkers, leather working, cartography, and Masons tools. Now I need to make an artificer woth all the tools. Or maybe a MacGyver subclass Artificer (proficient with improvised tools).
How often can I use my tools? As often as I use and expose it to the party, dm, and myself.
I personally love tools because it's another thin layer of the character like a class but instead a job or hobby.
In our Pinkerton's game I've been able to use my poisoners kit to make knock off drow poison, combine drugs into an anesthetic and make "tear gas" from hot peppers.
Tools are good for themed Builds.
Herbalist + Rogue = Plague Doctor
Disguise + Forgery + Changling + Bard or Rogue = the ultimate unseen assassin
It really is the dependent on the game. When it comes to crafting, the relevance of your tools may depend on how much Downtime you get.
On one side it is the DM's responsibility allow opportunities for PC's Tool Proficiencies to have worth, and/or relevance. But it is also important for players know the basics of what the tools they choose can do, and work with the DM to discuss the potential of what they could do with their tools.
Some are useful. Kind of have to treat tools like the martial equivalent to predigistation and the like.
Maybe with musical instruments tool proficiencies you could get advantage on your performance check to show how well you could play the instrument.
We have a urban fantasy campaign coming up. Would a character proficient with medicine be auto proficient with surgical instruments or do certain medicine students never touch one?
I have Dwarf with brewing and herbalism so I am trying to get the DM to let me use these skills for advanced potion making.
The chef coats the gelatinous cube with baking soda
I made a 40 page word doc for what you can make and what the prices and DCs are for alchemist/herbal/poisoner/jeweler/carpentry/smith/tinkerer tools
I run a 4E campaign. In my game, some actions require tools to complete. Masterwork tools +1D4 and magical tools are available: +1D6, +1D8, +1D10, +1D12 based on enchantment.
Tool proficiency is based on chosen skill proficiency, has nothing else to do with class ... if you're proficient, you can use the tools for that skill check and get a good bonus to your roll.
I also offer the Mechanical Genius custom feat: you can use tools for any skill, regardless of proficiency; you gain a fully-stacking +1D6 bonus to any skill check or ritual involving tools,
Once per encounter as an immediate reaction, you can reroll a failed tools skill check or tool-assisted ritual without suffering any ill consequences of having just made a failed roll.
So I had a character get plate armor at 2nd level because he got everything he needed to make plate armor and just paid the blacksmith 100 gold to use his forge
Carpenter tools let you turn a tree into a wagon with enough time
Ultimately, it depends on your GM doesn't it. Though from the look of some of the comments, I'm glad I gave up on D&D after the debacle that was 4th Edition.
Cooking tools are useful unless you don't have to keep track of your food. Check out prices for rations versus trade goods.
sidekicks i think with essentials kit have some proficincies for the one class...
I make a proper meal a requirement for taking a long rest. Gnawing on rations doesn't cover it. If no one in the party can cook... camping is going to suck.
You guys finished the Gnarktas campaign!? Is it on the channel? Is it on the playlist?