How the New Lima Hellfire actually works | DCS AH-64D Apache
Vložit
- čas přidán 26. 05. 2023
- Basic understanding of the Lima model AGM-114 and why its acting the way its acting.
Join the Low Level Hell Discord!
/ discord
Join me on Twitch: / casmotv
Support the Channel and the Low Level Hell Community!
/ lowlevelhell
Merch Store! my-store-bb2c82.creator-sprin...
Check out the "Low Level Hell Podcast" on your favorite podcast provider!
thelowlevelhellpodcast.com/
Amazing Orchestra Music provided by THE RIGHT MUSIC FOR VIDEO at / posts
Hardware:
intel core i9-13900k, 64GM RAM, Zotac 4090 GPU
Joystick: VKB Gunfighter III with 20cm extension
Pedals: Virpil ACE
Throttle: Virpil Mongoose 3 - Hry
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
If it is where I think it should be…then it perceives this and goes somewhere….it’s not….???
And if it hits the wrong target, it is what it is.
@Richard Sleeve or is it what, it isn't?
Casmo, how do Lima model hellfires avoid hitting targets that are already hit? I'm going to guess that the FCR aids in that.
Another advantage of the strange flying behaviour of the lima is, that SAM systems like the SA-15 and other ones which are able to intercept missiles seem to have a harder time hitting their targets (at least in DCS)
Interesting point and worth exploring.
@@CasmoTV AGM-114 Kilo vs. Lima contest against SA-10/11/15. Sounds interesting 🤔
Next step will be to implement a British “Brimstone volley datalink” in to Lima. If missiles could talk to each others , you could just unload salvo on enemy column and disengage even before shots has landed.
did the lima have this feature?
This is perfect. You immediately started answering questions that I had but haven’t heard others address. Love your work!
Thanks for the explanation. Very interesting to hear the logic within the system.
I tested this new shiny hotness in SP, worked perfectly. Obviously as soon as I joined a server to hit a (sadly static) convoy they went haywire: every single missile fired at targets decided instead to go for an apparently very sexy car park close by. Not sure if it was a bug or just poor use conditions.
Thank you for making this informative video Casmo.
Great explanation. Also loving the new camera angle works in game.
I feel like you made this video just for me. Thank you.
They all are, friend.
The Missel Knows where it is at all times. It knows this because the Helo knows where it isnt. Another cracking video, great job.
Yeah, The instant I fired my First AGM-114L And saw it curve like that, I was stunned, and then it immediately occurred to me that it was likely necessary for Triangulation calculations, similar to how Vision and Depth Perception work in our eyes. Our ears + brain also triangulate sound using similar principles. Compare the extremely minute time difference that sound reaches the right vs left ears, and compute the direction of the emitted sound. This is why it's so hard to localize sound direction underwater, since sound waves propagate almost 3 x as fast under water our ears cannot differentiate. VERY COOL mechanism for the missile, although mine don't seem to be hitting targets as accurately as the LASER GUIDED
Its initial behavior reminds me of the Vikhrs which do a circular motion to find and track the beam and once locked on, its circular motion will be smaller until its aligned, hence BEAM Riding missile. The AGM-114L is quicker with its alignment due to its INS and Radar seeker.
Thanks for this video and explaining how the RF missiles work, when I posted a video on these missiles, I thought I was doing something wrong! Awesome training lesson as always.
Thanks for showing us the way the Limas work Casmo :)
Thank you. Haven't use them yet, but definitely gives me more info on how to use them.
Great explanation as usual. Thanks
Excellent information here, thank you.
This is the video Ive been waiting for!
I can see this potential being useful where say the apache is hiding behind a hill and can't crest due to AAA fire, but does know the enemies are near a larger hill the apache can actually see and fling the missile towards the general location and just let the missile radar do its thing. Indiscriminate fire but if you have to suppress a position it might work over needing to directly LOS a target.
So basically it is a "Fox 3" and the AH-64 currently is lacking the radar so only INS + Pitbull, if you put it into fighter pilot speak.
Thank you, very informative
The Limas have acted very strangely in practice on DCS, I’ve had times where they work great but I also have moments where even well within range, the missile will over/undershoot the target and hit dirt. Usually happens to me on targets BMP sized and smaller, where the smaller you go the more often I see it occur
My main takeaway from this is that the missile knows where it is because it knows where it isn't
SO glad I watched this before I start using those missiles. I totally would've been getting mad that the MSL wasn't hitting where I was lasing! :)
Thanks. I needed this xD.
Thanks Casmo.
🤨 And I always thought the Hellfire L could only be used with the AN/APG-78 Radar.
Thank you
Casmo, I have a small question, do you know in advance or can you influence the side where the lima is going? For example if I have a mountain to my right I want the lima to shoot to the left to avoid it, can I predict it or do I have to point the nose to the left? or do something else?
Yes, it depends on where you point your nose. Nose right of target means the missile will turn right and vice versa
meanwhile i cant get them to work, had George look for targets, out of 16 hellfires 2 hit, while the rest took a rest in the same random field
Lol that "shooting between the targets" example was a beautiful showcase. Which one of these will it hit? Neither lol
I found the same thing also, if theres a radar dish vehicle type vs a ural truck, it won't pick priority..
So....
the missile knows where it is, and where the target isn't. By subtracting from the target from where it is, from where it isn't, it knows where it is?
1. What's the inertial footprint (TLE) error margin?
Will, say within 2km, the Lima JDAM a target? 4km? More? Is there a difference between LOBL and LOAL?
2. Will the system accept shootlists?
Within the PBZ footprint, based on target store points? Or is this a radar requirement for the APG-78 to provide steering or TOF lagged engagements?
3. Will a Longbow Hellfire reject a target hulk?
Shot out by an earlier missile, and begin a new target search?
Does it work against small PCI naval targets like the Brimstone does or is there a speed gate/lateral motion limiter?
Is the flickering explosion a new bug? Othewise a great video.
The George AI is absolutely dreadful at using the AGM-114L but the missile itself is a lot of fun to use in the CPG seat.
I think that for a radar guided missile there is absolutely no difference what source the target data from the laser designator or FCR comes into it. This is the same data about the direction and distance to the target.
Correct but you can only lase one at a time. The radar does more.
Good stuff as always. I do wonder though, during the initial flight is the wandering guidance signals sent from code built into the onboard software separate from the seeker head, or is the seeker head itself sending the signals, as it looks around. I would assume the software is sending the guidance separate from the seeker and the seeker head doesn't send guidance until it locks on?
It can do both LOBL and LOAL.
2 things:
1.) can you run Lima's and Kilo's in Beast Mode? I.E. outer racks: Kilo's, inner racks ; Lima's?
2.) I've also noticed that the Lima's have about a 2km range shorter than the Kilo's. I can typically fire Kilo's right around 10km(a little higher, but not by much) and the Lima's, for a high PK, I need to be within 8.3km. You can launch further out, but it's like +90% that it'll miss and/or go into the ground.
So basically it's a very large rocket launched cbu-97
CosmoTV - is your tgp screen resolution deliberately low? I'd increase it to 1024 every frame - it should be most realistic setting. Unless your hardware struggles.
I honestly haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. TGP screen resolution can be changed? I assure you there is no hardware struggle in this machine
@@CasmoTV In System Settings, there is a setting called "Res of Cockpit Displays". You have options to change the MFD resolutions as displayed ingame- 256, 512, 512 every frame, 1024, and 1024 every frame. (I do not have the technical explanation about the difference using the "every frame" option, other than to guess that the non-every frame skips frames to help overall game framerate.) In any case, since it sounds like you have the horsepower, "1024 every frame" is the top end option.
@@tread140 yeah just saw that. I forgot all about that. This is a new system so I’m still dialing in all the things that the old one had. Thanks for that, was wondering why stuff looked a little weird
@@CasmoTV If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. And with the number of gamer friends I've been able to get to try DCS still at zero, us few sim nerds have to stick together.
thx :)
Great explanation. btw what is that blinking thing behind the tank 2:10
Oh and judging by the explanation, this is the "The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't by subtracting where it is from where it isn't" kind of situation isn't it
it looks like some visual artifact from the tank antennas and the screen resolution IDK the technical name for it LOL
Can the FCR also scan the targets and automatically move the laser designator between the scanned targets for the K like it does for the L?
I think the dcs logic must have some form of percentage for hitting an intended target as I have had it hit other nearby larger targets when lased a specific target.
likewise, I've gone back to the Kilo missiles to be honest - I've tried what I think are perfect conditions....target unobscured right on my 12 and it'll still go off and find a target that's almost at 6 or 9
@@HypePerformanceGroup I think as Casmo says they are a useful tool for certain situations. Maybe a combination of them both would be best? I think the K is better when it has to be an accurate shot in a busy area but the L has advantages to hit multiple targets in the open quickly.
I guess the best way to think about it now is that it is a pit bull aim120
I was attempting to shoot a shilka on a steep slope. I think the shilka was in the shadow of the hill when it was looking for the target.. if they actually model the inflight radar scans. Launched 4 MISSiles and they all overshot and hit open ground.
Curious if it is due to beta, or truly the shadow of the hill.
Theory: Could you lase and store. Then in manual mode advance to the next missile lase and store another and then cycle back to the first missle and ripple that way?
Bro that makes my head hurt thinking about it.
This is a little off topic, but seeing the extremely shallow angle from you to the target (relative to what I'm used to seeing in a fixed wing jet's TGP) made me think about it... If an apache is handing off target coordinates, how do they go about actually getting that info and do they have to laze to see the coordinates in the first place? My group was flying a mission last week where we had a couple Apaches passing us MGRS coordinates and every single one of us ran into problems where we had good readbacks, but when we actually plugged in the coordinates the targets were up to a couple hundred of meters off in some cases. Seeing the Apache's view here makes me wonder if they weren't lazing and as a result we were getting the coordinates of the ground on the other side of the target...
Possibly. 🤷🏻♂️
any idea if ED is going to implement any evasive maneuvers for vehicles being fired upon? be nice to see tanks use their laser detectors or RWRs to learn of hostile intent and run for cover...
This millennium is pretty young, so there's still hope...
Maybe employ smoke. There is going to be a strategic commander once the dynamic campaign is released, whenever that will be. I suspect we will get some more Ai at that point. MT is a big step in that direction. Without MT, there was no way to have the prosseing power to have any kind of ground Ai.
I don't think they have any counter measures against this threat. Not the tanks depicted in this video.
@@oczhaal most APCs and tanks have smoke launchers and laser/rwr warning receivers.
@@utley smoke against a RF missile?
That intro 😂
One thing I was hoping we would be able to do with the Lima model was to just designate a waypoint for the missile and fire it to that without needing to laser spot it. But that's probably a little too fancy.
Yeah that’s not in the design specs.
@@CasmoTV In my head I was dreaming of a glorified JDAM with a little radar seeker in the nose.
@@CasmoTV gps aided hellfire,cool idea
Essentially you're giving the missile a fly out way point, then seek out a valid target. Would imagine this missile is, used this way, is very iffy if there's a chance of friendly fire or the presence of neutral targets.
The FCR system can set up a no fire zone.
So basically the missile knows where it is and isn't?
Is it realistic, that this missile will overshoot if you move towards the target while shooting it, and undershoot if you are moving backwards from the target? Because that's why a lot of people are missing targets, so I just wonder if hovering required for this missile to hit with precision, or in real life it works just the same both from hover and from moving positions?
That sounds like a bug. I’m sure it’ll take a while to dial it in.
@@CasmoTV I saw a commentary on DCS forum in which guy was explaining that L version uses a different way to navigate to target then by GPS coordinates, but instead it uses vector to target information. SO once it's written to the missile from TADS, any further movement will shift this vector so the missile may miss. I was just wondering if it's true, because you've mentioned that L missiles use vector navigation.
@vale this is how I understand it as well. You cannot lase, store to the missile, move to cover, and then fire. The data will be old, as it is not coordinates but vectors as you stated.
I’m guessing this means with the FCR you are giving constant updates and can do this for multiple missles / targets. Even with moving targets.
Correct. You SHOULD shoot it as soon as you get data as it gets stale. But to the original point no, you don’t have to be hovering.
@@CasmoTV Ok. Thank you. That makes sense
What is the Missile doing when its doing whats its doing?
my biggest question would be in irl would you hover? can this be done at cruise speed? because if yes. my shots have been 10 to 15 feet off.
You can do this on the move, but you have to fire the missile shortly after lazing. The target location is given to the missile relative to you, so if you move between lazing and firing, the location the missile targets will move as well.
But, if the missile is only 20 feet away from a target it should be able to correct and make that turn. Make sure you are actually using the Lima variant of the missiles and not the Kilo by accident.
The Kilo missiles can miss slightly if they loose track of the laser just before impact.
Basically a baby Harpoon.
i am surprised such a haphazard weapon exists in an age where the public is so sensitive to collateral damage/imprecision.
Presumably they’d have to meet specific conditions to use this - not much use for blowing up terrorists with friendly troops nearby, but in a conventional war where Apaches get sent out on their own to do some damage there’s much less risk.
*laughs in cluster munition*
When the horde is blasting through the fulda gap, such “haphazard” weapons will be in full swing.
My missiles keep missing everything. I'm using George, and the missiles keep hitting nothing but ground.
George is an issue. It is known.
I can't believe its point and shoot irl... The lack of accuracy seems like a problem. Does the FCR help with it at all or is it just for spotting?
The FCR helps with the accuracy. This missile can also be launched from a ground vehicle. The idea is to soften up an area while not being directly exposed. If one wants to hit a terrorist on a busy highway, a laser guided missile would be better.
Agm 114R have both radar and laser guidance?
sounds like the brimstone which has a dual mode seeker (plus missile datalinks which will allow groups of missiles fired in salvo to automatically search for targets and assign unique targets to each missile)
Guess no missile to use around friendlies 😓
i find it hard to believe a radar can pick up stationary ground targets
There are radars that can scan targets from the air and map the sea floor. They can even spot submarines. The military radars pick up shapes so they can tell the difference between a tank and a truck.
Aircraft radar can do it too. I saw a claim somewhere that the reason the missiles do this sideways boost is to get some sideways aspect on the target which is necessary for SAR. If you fly the Hornet you’ll have seen this too for ground mapping.
You might also be surprised to learn that we put men on the moon.
Thanks
So I guess since it's just lazing to tell the missile which target you want George as CPG should be able to use it?
Yes, George can use it. I use it with him in the front because I like to pilot and have only been in the front of the helicopter once, just to see what it was like. I stay in the back and let George to the work, and while he does miss moving targets, it is usually because they move behind tress.
@@ImpendingJoker I prefer to stay as pilot too.
Great stuff as always dude. Will the FCR theoretically (taking into account DCS-isms) increase accuracy? Also, in Longbow 2 it talks about the "C-Scope" - which overlays FCR symbology into the TADS - is that a thing on this Block? Or even real?
I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about (viper player), but there's a button labeled C-Scope on the right hand controller so
czcams.com/video/IP6onv6W5lc/video.html
This video also shows symbology of the air to air stinger missile set up in the weapons display. Some real pilots have not seen this symbology in the actual helicopter probably because they never configured their helicopter for those missiles and may believe the capability was never there.
Your screen looks very fuzzy? Do you have screen resolutions low?
Yeah new computer. Getting stuff dialed in
just like a little anti tank amraam 😅
Correct me if I am wrong. But don't many vehicles now have laser detectors? So it would make sense to me to shoot a radar guided missile in a general area and let it choose rather than tip your hat that your spiking a guy.
METT-C
The L is not very usable, just when you try to stay out of sight it might help you engage armor and short range air defenses. For everything else I'd use the K! The L tends to hit "not the correct" target in a group, also it hits allready destroyed targets (because they still reflect RADAR) and it is certainly not picking out air defenses in a convoy for you. That is all logical. And be happy that weather does not influence it yet. Strong winds and your Lima flies off to maybe hit your own armor that is a half mile off the targets. I wonder why everyone thought the L will give them supremacy... read a bit about and think logical! The Germans went with the PARS Missile system - IR always helps, problem with them is that they only see hot targets. Every system has it's use. Laser Guidance however is still the best system for precission and has a unlimitted variety of targets possible. The only problem is that they arent Fire and Forget. I wonder why the Germans did not go for the Hellfire, thinking about their Targeting Laser and Sight is on the top of the rotor which would have allowed them to stay in cover like the Kiowa?
Yeah I agree. The L is really meant for the FCR. in our training we would use it for specific targets when engaging with the TADS.
I believe it to be a multi platform missile which can also be ground launched much like the ground vehicles designed to launch the Brimstone missile. The idea is to soften an area up without exposing oneself.
Soon we get the AGM-114N Hellfire Romeo with some gore effects i hope?
Why is your TADS so blurry?
New computer. Didn’t have the settings dialed in all the way
Seems to me. That depending on which pylon it launches off of will depend on how it hooks. For example if it's launched off the right pylon it hooks wide right and then makes a sudden left turn as it approaches the lazed area. Then it starts searching for the nearest Target and.... kablamo.
So what you're saying is that the missile knows where it is and where it isn't, and once it gets where it isn't it will look for a target on its own. And then it will go from where it isn't to where it wants to be to kill something, which may not be what the CPG originally picked for the missile to not to be at.
Ok. Definitely "Game Mode" things at work here. Correct me please... How does a radar seeker tell the difference between a 'live' and 'dead' target? A radar return is a radar return. IRL you launch missiles into a target area, it could keep hammering the same target over and over, and never hit the still living active vehicle ? Random chance you get the correct target ? Yeay for gaming. :)
From the back seat George just sucks with the lima .... He misses 75%+ he's so bad there is really no point in bringing Limas unless you have a human cpg.
Thx for the video The image on your TADS and MFDs isn't clear try clearing metashaders2, fxo, and Tracks\Multiplayer
Should make your TADS image clear
No is the res on the monitor. This is a new system and I’m finding all the little things I forgot to set when I installed various software.