Medieval Helmet Liners
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- čas přidán 6. 10. 2016
- A look under the hood (or the helmet in this case).
Bascinet Dismantled - goo.gl/58oHq3
Extant Liners - goo.gl/TK2HyK
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+1 for the Matt Easton rolling pin joke.
context!
The effigy 'stache was awesome XD
Congrats on the mustache droop-over achievement. That one's been a work in progress for a while now.
Haha, thanks. Took more patience than any other part of the kit :)
Takes patience to keep it as well.
I cannot mine touching my lips or getting into my mouth. Have to get scissors right away.
Gluestick works phenominal to keep that stache in place. A good firm wax does as well. Congrats on the moustache!
Yeah, I have to wax it or I will eat it, and even then I still eat it a lot.
The longer it gets, the easier it is to deal with. You're in that awkward area now, but in a little while, it'll be amazing! Try lepage brand white gluestick. It's sticky and holds a lot firmer. Wipe it on the top and underside of the stache, wait a little bit for it to start to tack up, then form it to where you want it. Do one side completely at a time or you'll get a mess. It washes out with water in the shower, but until that happens, you can sleep with the glue in and it'll stay put.
Thumbs up for fixing the moustache before continuing the lecture
Well, I knew no one would take me seriously unless my mustache gracefully draped over the edge of the aventail... ;)
Fantastic video, thanks!
Metatron Hey! I know you!🏰🏯🎿
I can not thank you enough for these videos. I'm an artist who is trying to learn about all this armor goodness. I have drawn fantasy armor since I was about 13 (I'm 25 now) and for the past few months, I have been trying to study up to draw realistic, practical armor. Apparently, I have a hard time getting the size of the helmets right (with trying to figure out the space between the head and the helmet) as well as their practicality. I have been watching so many videos from this Medieval Armor playlist of yours. I'm skipping around but fully intend to watch the playlist through at some point. I still have so very much to learn, but what I've gather so far has made a tremendous difference when trying to design my own armor for my characters. So, thank you!
Good ol' Matt Easton
How are you not more popular!?
@Радован Кубурић still waiting...:(
Waiting
Just like any modern construction helmet, medieval helmets had a suspension system on them. It does look quite comfy as well, plus its possible to remove it for maintenace. Without giving much thought into it, I always assumed your head was in contact with the helmet itself... Now I see what a ludicrous idea that is, you need the void to absorb the blow....my respect for medieval tech is growing the more I know about it. Thx Ian!
The moustache adjustment!
HAHAHA!
Your videos are awesome man!
Knyght Errant, please for the love of God make a turn shoe video and possibly tutorial!!! It would be so freaking awesome.
Very relevant, considering Skallagrim's ongoing helmet tests.
I actually came here because of that
Matt Easton has also done some helmet videos recently, helmets get all the love these days. #greavesmatter
That basic lobed suspension liner system was essentially used in combat helmets until very recently. The WWI and WWII military helmets used it (although the number of lobes varied). The US M1 used variants only with straps so they could get more range of adjustment. That method was kept through the PASGT helmet.
The modern combat helmets went to a system based on sports helmets. They basically have foam pads all around the inside off the helmet instead of a suspension with an air space. The upside of this is that the new helmets (like the ACH) are much more comfortable. The downside of this is that certain insults like blast now have a direct pathway to the head so certain injury types have gone up.
Why not simply have a solid foam inner piece with essentially foam strut connection/ more traditional suspension inside the helmet? More comfortable, very little connection to the helmet itself.
a solid foam inner piece would not be adjustable for different head sizes.
Jeff Acheson
And foam pads as are currently used somehow are?
But really, solid foam inner pieces could be interchangeable for different head sizes (within a certain range)
farmerboy916 Yes, the foam pads only cover sections. So if you have a long narrow head you use thin ones up front and thick ones on the side. It's like a bike helmet.
Jeff Acheson
Wouldn't that just lead to an increase in force transferred to certain areas, considering your op and the use? That seems like shockingly bad design.
Again a great vid.
Im glad you are such helmet afficionado, Ian. Better protect that beautiful mind of yours. I see you naturally hairy bevor is coming on nicely too. Another great vid. Cheers.
nicely done.
this was hilarious AND informative. thanks :D
Very informative - I learned a lot! Thanks!
Hahahaha, I lost it with the cut in of Matt banging his head around, hahahaha, nice!
great video very informative as always
The Sir Bedivere moustache over the aventail is priceless.
This is cool as hell.
God, this is fantastic.
Learned quite a lot, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Sir Ian, I'd never even considered this before! A "little" "big" issue that must frequently go unresearched by well everyone. I also find it interesting how once again we find that medieval warriors weren't idiots but used a system that is still used today to protect their noggins.
oh you did. thats actually pretty good.
Realistic helmets are huge. Awesome! ^_^
helps with heat/cold sweet and reduces pressure points !
Really good video
Very informative. I was under the impression, for the longest time, that many helmets just had an arming cap underneath.
In retrospect, the thought seems a bit silly, seeing how much more effective a suspension liner is.
Great video.Those jokes really landed
Thanks, it was really interesting.
The bacinet with the chainmail looks extremely protective and kinda comfy
I would say, this method of suspension also has another small benefit. In the unlikely event that something penetrates your helmet, it has to reach even deeper into the metal to even touch your head, given that there is some distance between the metal and the head. It´s especially evident with the bascinet: When striking downwards, you could probably sink a whole polehammer´s spike into its top and it wouldn´t even reach the head inside it.
Yes, that's absolutely right. That's a detail a lot of people forget about armor penetration. Even if you manage to get through the armor, it doesn't mean you've killed, wounded or even reached the man inside of it.
So in other words, armor is like a wearable shield...
I'd reckon any blow that would penetrate the steel would deliver a knock out concussion or outright crush your spine at the neck...if not rip the liner from the helmet edges and push the spike into the head regardless...🤔
Apparently, even the romans never had helmet liners. Is this a distinctly medieval invention?
Good video thank you
Interesting, especially where the smallest amout of space it. The little space is the sides reduces the chance of the helmet turning, and the little space in the back reduces the little hood of impact from the helt on the back of the head knocking you unconsuis. The top adds the buffer were mechanical, a human being can generate the most force.
Good video.
Hey Ian! Thanks for all the info. Really enjoy all your videos.
After making the cloak, from your soft kit video, I'm now trying my hand at making the liner for my bascinet.
And I have a questions regarding the padding: sometimes I see people with helmet that have the liner and aventail as 1 piece. Is this a modern take or was this seen in the past too?
Thanks for your time in regard and keep up the good work!
Fantastic video, thanks. I was just beginning to draw up the pictures myself for the same purpose, and you saved me from doing a far worse job of it :)
Jokes of popular youtubers: AAAAAAAAA F*KING GODH, GAH!( very frequent)
Knyght Errant: Effigie mustache ( not too many jokes, but not to little either)
It's fascinating how the sallet liner is very similar to my WWII German helmet liner. Guess I know where they got their idea from for the WWII liner
Reminds me of how modern horseback riding helmets are designed!
interesting to know, next time I make a helmet i'll certainly do this especially for a sallet since it's so close fitted
There is a some video on line of various reproduction helmets being smacked with various weapons. A good helmet in good condition is very likely to cause the spike on a war hammer to glance off & even if it doesn't it may not make it to bone. Traditional helmets were surprisingly effective.
i'd also imagine that the air gap also would help with heat conduction/ loss,if you're head is against the padding which is against the metal, you might heat up or cool down a bit more easily, say, a sweaty linermight be cooled by the metal in cold environments
Link or video title where Matt was smacking his helmet with a rolling pin?
Just search "sallet" on his channel.
albinotatertot There's a gif as well
Matt Eastern, Scholar Gladitoria: rolling pin defences.
Another modern example of this suspension concept is bicycle helmets.
Hey so I'm not sure if this question has already been asked or not but I'm curious, were spangen helms, nasal helms and cervelliere helms also made with these suspension type liners? I know most places that sell them come with them but historically speaking when did these padded suspension liners start seeing consistent use?
Hahahahah, hold on, let me adjust my moustache! Classic!
How about earlier helmets like the 13th century Great Helms? Were there any liners or leather suspension on those considering one would be already wearing a padded coif and mail coif under it?
Hey Ian, I have a question regarding helmets! I've read in a book yesterday, that knights in the XV. century wore a kind of "dust repellent veil" under their helmets, and that on one occasion, the chronicler who wrote about a king of my country was unable to recognize the king among his fellow knights because of the veil on his head. I've never heard of this veil before, do you know about it? How could I search for it?
Are the adjustable sallet liners as easy to sew as they appear? 4 joined triangular lopes, with each lope consisting of 2 layers of linen + horsehair + 2 layers of linen? Or is there some trick that requires a pattern?
I've once tried to use a suspension liner in modern contact combat sports and that thing hurts when you get hit on the side where the padding does contact the crown of the helmet. Is that really what they did back then? something tells me they would have used blue foam if it existed back then
even helmets from the two world wars have a similar liner
I aspire to have a Mustache one day.
came for the information, stayed for the puns!!!
What kind of liner do you recommend? Which manufacturers are worth approaching?
Do you know whether the early face-plate helms were suspended or full of padding? Currently some of those in my re-enactment group argue that it was full of padding but I'm not a hundred percent sure I agree. Opinions?
Hey Ian, i was wondering you you're going to be at the Days Of Knights in Frankfort Kentucky. I'll be doing parking control with the Frankfort Police Explorers at the event.
Awesome! Exactly what I was looking for. I was especially intrigued at the empty air space as opposed to filled with padding. Was this lining suspension system used for other helmets such as the Great helm?
Throughout much of the 14th century, the Great Helm was worn over a smaller bascinet or previously a small cervelliere (skullcap helmet). Unfortunately the few examples that survive do not retain their suspensions, but we do get a peak inside great helms on funeral effigies. The great helm is often used as the 'pillow' that the figure is resting their head on, and from the side, you often see a lobed suspension designed to seat on top of the crown of the underlying bascinet. Scroll down to the image of Reginald de Cobham from the side and look into the opening of his great helm and you will see what I'm describing (this style is consistent in the effigies that let us see this detail): www.themcs.org/churches/Lingfield%20St%20Peter%20and%20St%20Paul.html
You can also see it being used in a reproduction here : czcams.com/video/cHRhtshjpHs/video.htmlm59s
Knyght Errant I know you linked to the part of the video that dealt specifically with the harness of the great helm and I appreciate that. But I ended up watching the entire video because it answered even more of my questions. Thank you
How about a skull cap helmet? Did they have a suspended lining or did they use just padding?
If realism is often compromised on videogames, this is a bit of (very relevant) fuctionality that is absolutely missing from them.
That bit of Matt's video got me giggling.
What should you use if a helmet doesn't have a liner already attached or a way to attach one?
How thick the liner should be?
In bascinet should liner be thick enough to have no free space between ear and helmet?
I'd be interested to see this in modern fencing helmets. I wonder if that would work better for HEMA than just the ones we use now.
HowJewDoin' yes it would. Fencing helmets are not designed to take impacts from two handed 1.5kg - 2kg steel weapons. In reality they need a complete design but manufacturers have invested heavily in the technology they use today. I'm contemplating getting an armourer to make me a proper fencing Helm.
should be mainstream on HEMA headgear
most fencing mask are lined with this principle
As @Gloin79 pointed out, most fencing masks have a hard wire suspension that's padded, so the top and top of the face aren't in contact with your skull.
rahadian panji oki agreed. There is no way a modern fencing mask can absorb the impact of a HEMA longsword. They have very basic padding to take strikes from very light sporting swords. They really
Need to add a proper military or construction suspension system.
the biggest problem with sport fencing masks is the mesh though, but fencing masks for hema do have suspension
to the sides of the head make direct contact with the helmet via the padding? If not can you turn your head sideways fast withtout the helmet wobbling too much?
The sides tend to also slightly suspended. But rapid turns of your head can be a bit problematic in helmets, not only due to this suspension, but also to the mass and thus inertia of the helmet itself. You can sometimes see people turning inside in their helmets if it doenst fit that well. But it doenst seem to be much of an issue with a tightly fitting helmet.
okay thanks
Did armets and close helmets also have this sort of liner? They look like they sit pretty tightly around your head.
Certain parts, like the cheek pieces may be padded directly against the helmet, but for the most part the crown of the head would still be suspended.
carefull not to get that 'stach caught in the chainmail... i got it into a zipper once and it was fucking hell. great video
doesn't matter how great the helmet, with out a propper liner you have just a kettle sitting on your head.
on a serieus note, would stretchy material help you think? specialy in down worth motion. like if the cord you tie the lobes with had a little stretch in it, so it could sag more over you head on moment of impact taking up some of the force.
I suppose it would help. Any energy spent stretching material, or moving the mass of the helmet is energy not going into your skull :)
Would these helmets with fixed liners be used directly ontop of the head or would a cale and/or padded cap be worn underneath?
Helmets with fixed liners would _not_ require any additional padding underneath. Most helmets of the late medieval period, from the simplest cervellieres (skullcaps) and kettle hats, on up to more complex bascinets, sallets and armets almost invariably have piercings to accommodate an internal fixed liner either sewed directly to the skull or to a leather or fabric band.
So would people possibly wear arming caps underneath those types of helmets, or have they basically passed that point in time?
They'd be pretty redundant under a proper liner like this. That's not to say there aren't other variations of helmets that may not have had an integral liner though.
hello I am curious about your bascinet. First where did you get your bascinet and secondly how much did you purchase it for? I have recently bought a bascinet and it is too heavy (10lbs). I was thinking of selling it and buying something a little more historically accurate. Thank you
Hi Thomas. I commissioned my bascinet from armorer Piotr Feret at www.platener.eu Prices on armor are going to vary dramatically depending on exactly what you'd like, so I would recommend asking for a quote from someone you have in mind.
Knyght Errant I appreciate the response so quickly. Thank you!
czcams.com/video/xwX2kkeMEOk/video.html for the rolling pen
A little off topic but how much of a set of armour can be worn by another person?
You've talked before about greaves before being designed around a specific person's calves but what about everything else? Was wondering if anyone might salvage armour from a fallen knight for the purpose of wearing it themselves.
Helmets can usually be repurposed, since the most f the people have sizes around 56-58. Shoulders are no problem either.
However limb protection must be reshapen (if it is not tempered)
Body protection has got too many variables, therefore it usually cannot be worn by somebody else than its owner. There are commonly two solutions to this problem:
1) Changing backplate for a leather strapping. This is less extreme solution. Frontplate worn separately is still good enough protection against stabs and weaker blows and it is not so much demanding on the proper shaping of the armour.
2) Cutting plates and sewing them into a brigandine.
Part of it is how well do you want it to fit?
Mail came in a range off the peg sizes like clothes today, but for plate armour every joint has to be in the same place, if your shins are longer then the knees won't bend right as there to low.
It may also be possible to wear the elbow and knee plates separately if you detach them from the rest of the arm/leg gear. Sabatons might work as well if your shoe size isn´t off by that much. A bigger breastplate might be reasonably worn if you wear a thicker gambeson (without a back plate, in this case, as long as it is not too long). As others said, plate arms and legs is probably the most problematic.
Just noticed the 40 £ per annum, nice! Hajaha
Would you say that the adjustable liner would be more applicable to lower end helmets so that they can be sold more easily. I would think that a bespoke, made-to-fit helmet would come with the option of making a completely fitted liner. So what made you decide to get adjustable suspension?
Also, helmet ringing makes a lot more sense now :)
Fabric changes in different states of humidity, after you sweat into it, after it stretches etc... having it be adjustable allows you to get the right fit for the life of the liner and in differing conditions. It's mostly a matter of making sure that sights line up with your eyes.
if you pizza before you french fry you're gonna have a bad time :P
do you feel modern foam liners, attached to the skull, provide equivalent protection to padded suspension liners?
I have absolutely 0 data to back up my opinion, but I've always been of the persuasion that a suspension liner can offer a some more benefits than the 'fill it with foam' approach. Foam tends to rigidly lock your head into the helmet a little more than a suspension liner does.
Foam is used differently, it is used for motorcycle and cycling helmets which sustain a different kind of impact
I believe the OP is referring to the standard squishy blue foam that groups like the SCA use in their fighting helmets.
Ian, have you read the Knight and the Blast Furnace?
As a point of interest, I notice the helmets you showed don't appear to have a mail coif inside the helmet.
Mail coifs were completely unnecessary in these kinds of helmets. I do have access to a copy of The Knight and Blast Furnace, yes. It's by far the best book on medieval metallurgy.
Knyght Errant Do you know of a comparable book about crossbows, if I may ask?
Crossbows? No, I don't, but admittedly have not looked. Allan Williams also published a work on swords specifically "The Sword and the Crucible" but I don't know of anything as in depth on crossbows specifically. If someone else knows, feel free to chime in.
Hans Smirnov While still existing by this period Mail coifs are not top of the line protection anymore. Probably more commonly used if you wore a kettlehat.
Note that the Bascinet evolved from a helmet that was worn under the Great helmet. ie it was commonly what you had for protection when you wanted air or better visibility. As soon as it started to get worn as the sole headpiece it started getting more face protection. ie. a nasal linked to the mail fringe of the bascinet and a flat face plate soon after that.
A full coif wouldve been superfluous at this point.
Would you say that this principle of the armor being suspended away from the body is also to an extent true for cuirasses? A lot of cuirass front plate designs seem to be quite globular especially near the front of the armor and away from the body as if the armorer wanted to give everyone big metal beer bellies or something. :P
Yes, it does get the armor away from the actual body, and it also allows for even deeper curvature which aids in glancing (especially from things like a well aimed lance or spear etc...)
Foot-Combat Helm of Sir Giles Capel - I'm very interested in how the liner made here. If you know, or have any suggestions, answer please
It has rivets around it's neckline, it wouldn't surprise me if it was once lined in a similar fashion to this close helm - www.pinterest.com/pin/449515606539803687/
Thanks. I didn't even think that holes on top can be fakes)
Would you rather go into battle wearing a sallet and bevor or a bascinet?
what kind of bascinet?
I think he means the houndskull bascinet
***** then sallet all the way, my visor is down unless I'm in formation/taking orders ,so better vision and mobility are a good compromise for arrow protection
Better frontal neck protection, in sight, ease of breathing, more verstality in breathing.
sallet, because the stahelm is essentially modernized visorless sallet, it is still applicable to the moern battlefield.
Actually the comparison to modern-day ballistic helmets is not accurate. They used to have suspension liners, but nowadays foam padding is used, creating direct contact between head and helmet. This is done to reduce damage caused by shockwaves from near explosions.
The technicalities of it I don't know, but this is where it's at now.
Hi Ian. I have a kettle helmet with a basic suspension rig but I find that the rim of the helmet is often resting agaijst my head, this negating a lot of the effect of the suspension rig. Is that normal?
Your head is in contact separate from the liner, or around the edge of the liner? Sometimes some contact is unavoidable around the lower rim of the liner (where it attaches to the helmet).
Its in contact with the liner where the liner is attached to the helmet, but i need to have an additional arming cap under to help pad it out so its not pressed right up against my head. But around the rim is where I really feel it when I take a hit during combat.
Would a padded cap be worn under the padding or would that be redundant/detrimental?
How does metal rubbing against your hair might help? I though no one ever wears a coif without an arming cap?
OK :-D So, given a kettle hat, what could be worn, like the most amount of layers one can put? arming cap or coif? what is it? like an arming cap but with no padding? Then mail coif and then the hat itself along with its lining?
OK, thanks :-)
that head looks like Matt Easton
Just needs more stubble, lol.
I've had the privilege of being hit in a fully padded helm (15thC Close Helm) and a suspended helm (14thC Bascinet) with both steel and rattan weapons, and the difference is striking ;) The suspended helm was much more comfortable against steel weapons than wooden, whereas the fully padded (i.e. no built-in suspension, just closed-cell foam) was actually more comfortable (hurt less) against wooden swords than steel.
I'm just guessing here, but since steel weapons are much harder, they would impart a much greater moment of impulse against a steel helmet. The total energy could be the same as a blow coming from a similarly heavy wooden sword, but the impulse, specifically, the amount of energy imparted per unit of time, would be higher with metal on metal vs. wood on metal. The wooden sword would be "soft" and deaden the initial impact as the wood fibers compress ever so slightly. A suspended helm would transmit almost non of the initial impulse energy, since the helm is actually moving very little and more just "ringing." However, a fully padded helm would make direct connection to your skull and could, at least theoretically, still transfer some impulse to your skull through the pad. At least, that's how it felt when I got hit.
The wooden weapon hurt my head more in the suspended helm than the padded helm, oddly, and my guess as to why is because the steel-on-steel impulse would impart a good deal of its energy into "ringing the bell", i.e. vibrating the helmet, rather than actually moving the overall helm through space. My brain getting sloshed is what actually hurts, and that requires the helm to move significantly. I bet the helmets actually didn't move as far when struck by a metal sword, even with identical force of strikes. The damage was done more to the helm itself, which, I imagine, was the armorer's intent.
I've a question if you have a moment...could you, and if so, how, would one make a poor man's suspension liner? Thank you good sir!
How thick were the liners usualy?
Thick enough to be a snug fit. I know that doesn't really help...but if you get helmet that isn't giant sized, then I would stuff wool fiber or something similar into the quilted "tubes" so they fill up and take up the excess room.
I think a padded coif would still be worn? Does anyone here know?
No, the liner alone is all that is necessary and what the evidence suggests when the helmet had an integral liner.
Thanks, that helps me visualize much better. . Keep up the awesome work!
Most important part of putting on armor?.....adjusting the stash.
40 pounds per annum, priceless
Is this the case even with simpler helmets, say kettle hats or nasal helmets?
The overwhelming majority of extant medieval helmets of all types have some sort of accommodation for an internal liner or suspension system. It's always impossible to say whether or not something is without exception, but it seems to have certainly been what was typical.
@@KnyghtErrant I often see people wearing a separate padding directly on their head, with adjustable leather straps riveted to the helmet. Would you say this is a modern invention?
Wearing a big separate padded coif as a lot of reenactors do is often a concession being made as a result of wearing a helmet that is either too big for them or wasn't made with a proper liner. That is not to say that padded coifs didn't exist historically or that there are scenarios where they are entirely appropriate, but they are in my opinion vastly over-represented by modern reenactors for non-historical reasons.
@@KnyghtErrant Thank you very much :)
Can you do a video about Medieval Panty Liners. My sister want to know if they are metal.
Can a poleaxe blow realistically kill a man wearing a properly fitted helmet with one hit?
Short answer: yes, I believe it would be possible. Nuanced answer: this depends on so many different variables; the type and quality of the helmet, the force and angle of the blow, the position of the wearer when he's hit etc., For example, a person in a well fitted great bascinet , good quality steel, thick and hardened, which is strapped down and fitted to his cuirass, suspension liner in good working order, is going to fare pretty well since a considerable amount of force will be absorbed by the coupling of the helmet and cuirass and the wearer's neck and head are almost entirely protected by virtue of the immobility of the helmet and its marriage to the torso armor. It can certainly absorb a solid lance impact with a steel coronel (and it does very frequently in modern practice by high end jousters). A person in a low grade sallet, made of a softer material who takes a full power shot to the side of the head could possibly wind up with a cracked skull or broken neck. On the other side, there are examples of surviving armors that are overly hardened and would fracture if struck with a poleaxe or other high impact weapon.
Definitely. I fight in the acl, and even the dulled weapons we use can leave massive dents in 12 gauge mild and even spring steel. Add a blade, or even better the spike meant specifically to puncture armor on many historical pole arms, and it becomes obvious.
Medieval crumple zones!
I would say that your helmet is suspended above your head and not the other way as you suggest ????
Look at how much size armour adds to an individual's outline. The armoured nobleman, already being on the average larger and taller than the commoners, must have been a truly terrifying sight to behold on the battlefield.