Are arbitrary speed limits the right way to manage speed on active transport paths?
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2024
- Last year cyclists copped fines over $400 for exceeding a ridiculously low 10km/hr speed limit on the Kurilpa Bridge in Brisbane. After a public campaign partly stirred by yours truly, the Queensland Government conducted a review and have raised the speed limit on the bridge to 20km/hr.
But it raised the question - are speed limits even necessary on active transport paths? Should we enforce speed on bicycles and e-scooters the same way as we do motor vehicles? Or do we need to pay more attention to the very different weight and kinetic energy characteristics of the relative vehicles?
CORRECTION: In the video I said at 40kph there was a 60% chance of a pedestrian dying in a crash with a car. It's a 60% chance of surviving. Still, the point stands, 40kph in school zones is homicidal.
5:11 , 60% chance to survive, not be killed.
Crap. Thanks for picking that up.
I have added a correction in the video description. I pride myself on being as accurate as possible, so I apologise for this error.
40% chance to not survive is still pretty woeful so probably doesn't matter much...
Carbrain really does infect everything, even infrastructure specifically excluding cars! I can only hope rectifying this on the mixed use paths and bikeways will manifest in broader examinations on transit policy, like the absurd double standard you mentioned regarding speed limits for cars.
I'd love to see the data they used when they set the speed limit to 10kph 🤔
They didn't have any, but we're on the metric system.
Since the early 1990 when I began riding my bicycle in urban areas in Brisbane, Toowoomba and Rockhampton, I find myself driving a vehicle in the suburbs more slowly to suit the road and visibility conditions.
I now see many people running and walking on these urban roads, early morning and late evenings. I have have also encountered (and occasionally interacted with) children and teenagers using scooters and bikes (often irresponsibly) in these areas.
A heavy mass vehicle's speed at 50km/hr would be problematic for all concerned. Good work!
Ride in the middle and walk at the sides... But we've put all the midday shade and rain protection, that pedestrians are more likely to seek, in the middle to keep things interesting.
Good video and a good result. Now they'll police gateway's 10km/h instead 🥺
Unless it has changed very recently, the Gateway signs are yellow which means they're only advisory.
Last time I was on the Gateway it was 20.
I live up the road, the signage in the park around it are white, 10km/h. Same on the bridge.
But what about the views of the river and city best seen from each side by tourists?
Thanks for putting it so succinctly and accessibly as always Chris. Much appreciated!
Speed trap the knuckleheads going >60km/h on illegal scooters on the Bicentennial Bikeway. There are a few of them in full motorcycle gear. Nuts...
Video topic suggestion - as an experienced commuter, perhaps one on how to mentally/emotionally deal with the constant abuse and threats (verbal and physical including deliberate ramming) that we encounter on bogan Australian roads.
After the blissful luxury of a decade on Canberra’s great bike path network, I’m in Hobart and dealing with some “backwards” attitudes and regularly terrifying encounters.
The fear and anger go hand in hand and being abused and scared is a horrible way to start your day.
Good idea. And also not just the abuse, but the poor standard of driving that disregards cyclists and pedestrians. The old "sorry mate I didn't see you" which is actually "not sorry, I just wasn't even looking for you". The best skills I've learnt in my time riding is 1) watch how cars approach an intersection to anticipate whether they will give way or not, and 2) not react when they don't.
@@ChrisCoxCyclingIt’s more the how to not let it get to you…
The vitriol and anger is draining. Had some muppet (in a 4WD - shock) abusing me and threatening to assault me (with his kid in his car watching) and spouting all the usual move over (into the door zone on an already narrow road), get on the bike path “I pay for” (which is kilometres away) etc etc. I left my bike at work a few times and took the bus home as I just couldn’t face the ride again that day.
And I’m not a newbie - I’m 50 and been a keen mountain biker for 40 years from before it was cool, and a roadie for 10 years.
We can’t change the road culture in Australia, the culture in general is pretty much a lost cause. But my challenge is how to accept it without ruining my day…
Hi, great video. It seems that on every ride I take(which is most days) a motorist is willing to take a risk with my safety, rather than slow down and wait for a safe pass. Amsterdam has recently lowered the speed limit for vehicles to 30kph. Not Just Bikes has a video ‘What is the “correct” speed limit.
Coincidental timing. I had been working on this video for a week or so - and Not Just Bikes just happens to nail the broader issue of speed limits for motor vehicles really well. I just shared it on my community page.
I would love consistent surface treatments used on different paths. A quick ride in Brisbane and you might need to check for blocks of Green or Red, or white markings on bare asphalt to tell you where the bike path is. And pedestrian markings can appear in similar colours depending on the location and who administers that section.
Additional to the relative speed and field of vision advantages; pedestrians, people on bikes, and even motorcyclists have one thing car drivers cannot utilise. Proprioception. Knowledge of one’s own body movement and position. When your hands are literally within an inch of the full width of your vehicle you have much better judgement of road/path position and distance to other objects than if you have a 1.5m buffer of steel and glass between you and the outside world.
Absolutely. Colour of pavement makes a huge difference to legibility. Wait for what they're doing at the cultural centre "metro" station. Something entirely different again...
Thanks!
My first super thanks! Really appreciate it 🙏
@@ChrisCoxCycling you're welcome mate. Your content is great and if you were consulted on every cycling infrastructure project or upgrade Brisbane would be a better place for it.
Emotional Support Vehicles 😅 100% true.
I recently had a trip to NZ and noticed in Auckland and Wellington that the speed limits in city's CBD are 30kmh and roads out of town are 50kmh. I can't recall seeing a 40kmh sign in suburban streets but I think that's the accepted speed. It was refreshing to see.
Same story here in Singapore. Our shared paths are 15kph or 20kph.
While parks with bike lane are limited to 25kph. Once in awhile we have enforcement doing speed traps & educating cyclists.
Cycling on the roads in Singapore is limited to 5 per grp (single file on single lane road).
10 per grp for 2 abreast riding on roads in same direction with more than single lane.
Getting really strict here, may be due to the space limitations.
Interesting. How do they determine the difference between a group of riders and just a bunch of individuals happening to ride at the same time?
@@ChrisCoxCycling
Usually big group of cyclists from the same cycling club (obvious from their team kit).
Or it can be different individuals/groups bunched up together due to traffic light situations. Misunderstood as the cyclists are in the same group.
The law/advisory is to have 30m/2-3 lamp posts gap on the road between each different riding groups & overtake when safe to do so.
Can u do a video about Kenmore Road on the morning school rush?
I have to ride from Jindalee up there most mornings and have to deal with skinny roads with no bikelanes, and the footpath is tight, narrow with views blocked from hedges, as well as tradies always parking up on the footpath, all while a ton of Kenmore South students are trying to use the footpath at the same time.
I imagine riding to school out that way is pretty horrible.
I see a bunch of kids do it and bless them but our councils REALLY don't help it.
Just have a sign saying slow with a glyph of many pedestrians. Pedestrians and not being a jerk to them make for effective speed bumps already!.. one exception I know though is how in escooters in Guangzhou usually blast through sidewalks
Hey Chris, do you have a link to the documents of the review / observational study you reference? I live across the ditch in Wellington NZ, and recently we've had new 10kmh speed limit signs added to some (smaller) bridges along our waterfront, which acts as the primary cross-town cycling route. It's a bit different as the space is also shared with infrequent service vehicles, and I suspect the limit is intended for them without any intention to enforce it on cyclists. But regardless, it would be really helpful to review the study you reference to help build the case for why a 10kmh limit for cycling makes no sense.
Hi there. The observational study itself was just a PDF emailed to advocates like myself. However, the Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads has a helpful guide "Speed Management on Shared Paths".
Within it, on pages 4-5 it talks about bicycle operating requirements, and has a key passage:
"Studies of bicycle operational stability during the last century have shown that a bicycle can become
unstable at speeds below 11 km/h. The degree of stability depends on a number of factors: the skill of
the rider; the design of the bicycle; and environmental factors such as path surface and slope.
Requiring people riding bikes to travel at speeds which may detrimentally affect their stability (and
safety) on inadequately-designed paths, shared with other users insensitive to their operational needs,
is not an equitable or safe path management strategy.
Any regulatory device which instructs people riding bikes to undertake a behaviour that will
compromise their safety cannot expect compliance and damages the credibility of the device and
should be replaced with a more suitable treatment."
www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/busind/techstdpubs/Cycling/Speed-management-on-shared-paths.pdf
Whoever had to sit through 126 hours of footage I hope they split it up between 3 people and each person watched the footage at 1.5x or 2x normal speed but even with all that you would still have to sit through a full working week of footage.
Rarely. Congested areas or narrow paths could sometimes use a 20-25kmh limit, but that should be reserved for areas where it's a real problem, not shared paths that are wide enough for a SUV to drive down
Plus busy paths are self limiting. When they're not busy, it's pretty safe to travel at a pretty good clip on a bike - though of course there are always some who ride their bikes too fast for conditions. And that's the sort of behaviour that needs to be monitored and addressed.
Doing 25kph on the Kurilpa Bridge when there's nobody else around is not worth the $287 fine.
Random musing reading some other comments, it's interesting there is focus on restricting the maximum speed of ebikes & scooters but not cars. I was reading overseas looking at technology even that automatically drops the speed of ebikes/scooters in school zones (obviously lower speed limits than we have).
But that makes me think couldn't that technology be applied to cars then? (rather than focussing on driverless vehicles). Police wouldn't have to do high speed chases & we wouldn't have to worry about our car getting stolen if you could use your mobile to hit a button that starts slowing it down until it stops (that wouldn't be a joyride). Noting Campbell Newmans recent comments that most motorists follow the speed limit so shouldn't have to focus on speed cameras now - very sure not every car is doing 50 kph in my street.
p.s. I do agree with the restriction on ebikes but I think 30 kph is fair like the UK are looking at. It's a good pace to commute with.
How do riders know what speed they are traveling if they don't have speedometer? If speedometers become necessary then the government should pay for everyone to put one on their bikes. Stupid laws.
Exactly. I have a GPS bike computer. Ebikes usually have a speedometer. But most bikes don't. And don't need them
Same with southbank in Melbourne, 10km speed limit, but bkes aren't required to have a speedo, the police say thats your issue to know your speed.
Another good example that shows that city administration and traffic planners often are still not sufficiently trained to take into account the perspectives of all road users, including pedestrians, bicycle and scooters. We all are traffic!
That pedestrian hit & killed by a cyclist was hit where they are doing works under the freeway, with lots of warning signs, etc. yet the MAMIL hit him was riding as though nobody else mattered.
Yep, there's careless dickheads on bikes too.
Also negligence from the developers. They took away the zebra crossing and then added a big advertising wrap that hid visibility. All the more reason to slow down... but wilfully reducing visibility on a busy path is utter shitfuckery (but expected from Queens Wharf)
Unless you’re riding an e-scooter/bike you don’t know how fast you’re going
Yep. Which is why in most civilised countries speed limits aren't enforceable on cyclists. But this is Australia 😉
Speed limits should only be enforced on electric bikes and escooters as most cases these high powered devices are driven by inexperienced riders. Any pedal powered user that can exceed the speed limit is a fit and competent person in comparison and so should be exempt.
I agree the maximum assisted speeds of e-devices should be enforced. I also think those maximum speeds should be 30kph rather than 25. Devices that can travel faster than that are actually illegal on public land and should be confiscated really.
Funny that they want to put speed limits on bikes as if they're anywhere near as dangerous as cars... Traffic regulation is for motor vehicles. Bikes are different.
Hey Chris Cox please advocate to push back against stupid law 12km/h limit on footpaths for scotters. It is perfectly safe to go faster in suburban footpaths where there's barely anyone walking on it. It is less stable to ride at a low speed.
Have they enforced it? The laws for escooters are stupid, I agree.
@ChrisCoxCycling I got no idea if they enforce it. But the laws just being there doesn't help encourage active transport. It's a deterrence for people who just want to ride sensibly and practically without breaking the law.
Just a day ago, NotJustBikes uploaded a video on speed limits! On the other hand, I also feel Governments should start taxing obese vehicles and high bonnet vehicles heavily as they are pretty much unnecessary within the city and most cars are usually occupied by single person anyways. Also, people who own cars that are highly rated by NCAP tend to drive more rashly. Proliferation of obese cars is making pedestrians feel like they are living in a world of metal dinosaurs.
The answer is easy; no.
Re the emotional support vehicles - I also like the accuracy of the term “gender affirmation therapy”.
police enforcement of the Kirilpa speed limit was ridiculous - a bit like what they do on the roads...
Speed enforcement on the roads makes more sense, but our speed limits are too high in urban residential streets.
How about we start using common sense again instead of following stupid signs!
For human scale transport areas? Absolutely. Cars operate at a speed our brains are incapable of taking in and processing all visual data, so simple signs are necessary.