Was The Blood and Cheese incident worse in the books? - House of the Dragon vs Fire and Blood
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- čas přidán 17. 06. 2024
- I will say, I watched the premiere with a large group and we were all silent during that scene -- so clearly it was effective in what it was trying to portray!
What did you think? Was it as terrifying as you expected? Do you think it was a good or bad thing for them to remove Maelor?
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Missed opportunity to reuse the old set from when Tyrion snuck through those same tunnels to kill Tywin, they could have showed Blood and Cheese passing that exact area!
Yeah, thought the same. I guess the set wasn't conserved after the shooting of Game of Thrones.
I thought the same thing 🤔 but I haven't read the books so I wasn't sure if the castle was pre-built that way, or if they were added later on?
@@PiscatorLagerthey probably destroyed the set when Drogon destroyed the red keep.
it's pretty clear the show wants to have the greens and the blacks mirroring each other, and being neck for neck in terms of wrongdoings and outcomes. aemond only killed 1 person, so b&c killed 1 person, instead of the maid and guard. alicent and criston going at it during the murder mirrors rhaenyra and daemon when aemond lost his eye. now the issue of aegon's new heir is left to his brother or his daughter (just like viserys at the beginning of the season 1). they are really relaying on parallels in the show which is interesting because both sides hate one another but are going through similar waves of events.
B&C in the show wasn't bad but it could have been much better!! I personally didn't like the fact that Blood and Cheese weren't friends or acquaintances. It was kinda stupid that Daemon introduced Blood to Cheese. I always considered them to be a notorious, deadly duo in Kings Landing. Anyway, great content, and loved your ASoI&F presentation!!
Really? I always read it as they were two guys who were chosen separately by Mysaria, she knew both of them but they didn't really know each other.
I definitely was a little underwhelmed by the show's version after knowing what happened in the books, but honestly I was also a bit relieved. Awesome cosplay!!
It would make sense that the maesters would want to make blood and cheese look like masterminds while their actually just what they are portrayed as in the show
As a Fire & Blood book reader I have told folks that season 1 imo was done on par with the and sometimes better than the book. But I can't lie, I was super disappointed with how the show decide tone down the Blood & Cheese moment. And I can't blame other book readers for being upset, because what they was take away the Sophie choice moment away from Helena. I love the Dance of Dragon storyline and the Blackfryer Rebellion over the main ASOIAF storylines, and IMO this Blood & Cheese incident could've been to HotD what Red Wedding to GOT.
you make under appreciated content! love the mel cosplay btw you should invest in some red contacts it would make it uncanny!
There were no guards around because they had been bypassed through secret passages. In the book, the target is the king's heir and they go there without hesitation. The show changes this to become a 2nd best option which makes the wandering about a necessity.
Helaena's choice in the show is not between one child or the other, it is between the one they want or both and herself: "Do anything but what I ask, and I'll bleed the whole lot of ya".
Firstly you look incredible! Secondly I thought b&c was done really quite well. Thirdly, phia saban is so talented, I still have chills
Excellent video! It's really good to get to know a little bit the differences between the books and the show.
The textual version is much harsher, more impactful & memorable than HotD's imo but thought the show's version was fairly good as well. Just like GoT from ASOIAF , some things simply can not be shown on screen and such have to be toned down. I'd say B&C qualifies as well but perhaps HotD's version could have landed somewhere slightly closer to the textual version with a few tweaks. With HotD's B&C - the lack of Alicent's involvement / witnessing , the other son not in the equation (not existing for now it seems , tbd if he's eventually born during HotD) , Helaena being more forced to choose in the text and even her reaction compared to the text etc. To me most of those departures / divergences somewhat lessened the impact compared to the textual version. Still well done and memorable but well short of the text imo. I do like that Condal does not lean so much in to gratuitousness (compared to D&D for example) but in this instance slight alterations could have raised the impact and brought the incident closer to the textual version.
I agree with you when it comes to the balance between the book and the show. I agree that the show version of events was clunky at times, but I still really liked it. I do of course prefer the book version, but having been of fan of this book and the whole ASOIAF series for nearly 25 years now I can see the good and bad with both. I do disagree with the folks who say that this one has no emotional weight the sounds alone and the great performance by Heleana's actress (Phia Saban) really touched me. Also, I thought the show was quite clear on why cheese was able to make his way around the castle. I mean he is an everyday occurrence in the castle, he is everywhere, his character has more access to the castle than most, and is one of its most important laborers. Great, great job on your videos. I like your style on them and how much you care really comes through. I hope to see many more terrific.
They did ask Daemon what to do if they didn't find Aemond though. We never heard his answer but I took it as he told them any son would do, but that it was still up to question.
One thing that made the show version much crueler was Cheese kicking the poor dog. I mean, come on!
why did he kick the dog anyway?
Personally I feel you saying the fact that in the show she is a dreamer and the prophetic nature adds to that yes but if they drew closer to the book it would be better. the problem is they they took away the fact that she chose her younger son, in the show it would have still have a better reaction regardless. either way it could be better but imo personal opinion the event as it was portrayed was not bad it could be bettter
I do think it was a bit unbelievable how easy it was for them to get into the prince’s chambers, I would think that during a time of war the security would be upped in case of assassins, but I still think it was the best scene of the episode and I don’t think we needed to actually see the death, the reaction and sounds are way more effective imo
I think the book version is typical GRRM turning everything up to 11 and then some. The show would be better if they had not inserted Aemond as the first target and Cole in the Queen mother's bed.,
Honestly, it makes sense why HBO did what it did. Think about it, fellow book readers: what parent is going to allow their child actor to act out the book scene? I think what we saw was the best, sincere plot the writers could come up with that wouldn’t hurt the child actors. I can’t imagine that Cheese actor would’ve wanted to actually whisper in a 2-year-old’s ear “your momma wants you dead” for 10 takes per hour for four hours a day for 2 or 3 days.
So, I’ll take it.
They could do it any number of ways. You could "film around" the kids to an extent by not having them in the room for the worst shots. You could use a doll or something and just keep the face slightly out of focus. The scene is already dark and hard to see. That is how I would film the "your mummy wants you dead" I would have the camera on Cheese's face as he stares at Helaena, and he whispers into the ear of a doll and all you see the doll's hair. You could make a game of out it so they don't find it upsetting. I've literally chased my nieces and nephews while dresses as Jason Voorhees (for a Halloween party) and they were having a ball because they knew it was a game. Kids act in horror movies all the time editing and movie magic can work miracles.
Just subscribed, love your content !❤
Cheese asks "What if we can't find him?" (talking about Aemond) and the scene cuts on Daemon's face. I'd say the killing of young Jaehaerys wasn't "improvised", it was just Plan B.
It seems the show is putting forth the idea that whole conflict is the result of misunderstandings, accidents, and circumstances beyond the control of both sides. Aemond killing Lucerys was an accident as both riders had lost control of their dragons. Blood and Cheese were meant to kill Aemond, couldn't find him, so settled on Jahaerys. I'm interested to see what Rhaenyra and Daemon's response will be to what happened. I wonder if they'll have a similar response as the Greens did to Lucerys's death.
Speaking of peoples reaction to the Blood and Cheese scene, in the words of another great HBO series “You want it to be one way, but it’s the other.”
It was the best they could do on the show... it would have been traumatic for a child actor to go through...
Also, Daemon knew about the tunnels himself...couldn't he have snuck into the castle and killed Aemond? Kill Aemond in his sleep and that would leave Vhagar riderless and potentially able to be claimed by someone on his side.
Show version is fine, people have just built it up so much in their heads. Like it’s not bad, it’s just meh. Nobody was ever truly attached to the young kids who lack personality imo.
The red woman!
I have my criticisms of the scene but not that they changed it from the book. I predict that show will have the greens propagandize the events into the book version. Maybe even Rhaenyra will hear this story.
I love the intention but I question some of their decisions with this scene.
Yeah I wasn’t a fan of the new role they gave alicent during blood & cheese. It would’ve been interesting to see Olivia’s acting. Had they kept the original story line in the books
thumbs up for the great cosplay!
Mommy Melisandre
holy F, i didn't know any literal goddesses like this actually like our nerd stuff. i mean, why is she SO good looking? she actually looks even hotter than melisandre in the show who's already really wow
Ok settle down there creep
@@dalecooper2232 not a creep. i didn't say or do anything creepy. i simply said what i thought of her, which is that she's a goddess with striking eyes and that she's just too good looking all around. but i didn't ask her for anything or do anything or pursue anything in regards to her. i didn't even subscribe or like the video--if i can't even be bothered to do that, then obviously i don't have the will to pursue anything creepy
Calm down simp, she's just a woman ffs
wait til she takes the necklace off.. 😔
I think the show version was not that bad as a lot of people made it out to be, but I wished alicent was still in the room when all of this happened, instead of the weird "laugh-track sex scene".
market packagin strang girl bloom
You look better in that costume than she did in the show
GRRM is too dark for HBO. B&C in the book is George at his most nihilistic. I'll take the show version.
I think both version are good in their own right - I also think there is bit feministic tone in show version: in book Helaena does everything she can to potect Crown Prince, even sacrificed her youngest; but in show she gave up straight away, determined to protect her daughter. It leaves Greens in ironic situation - they usurped Rhaenyra's throne because of her gender, and now they are left with female heir presumptive. I also have my theory this gonna lead to horrible treatment of Helaena by Aegon, furious she didn't simply pass their son as duaghter, which gonna result in Maelor's conception.
Yeah, Ryan (show runner) said “Maelor isn’t born… YET”
I don't think Haelena wanted to protect her daughter, she rather knew that Jaehaerys was bound to die (you can hear her whisper "they only want the boy" before Aegon comes into her room).
@@niii5949 Whatever her reasoning was, Aegon might ultimately blamed her, as Demon is out of his reach. We will see.
I thought it was good and adapted competently. I actually really like the idea that there'd be this question as to why Helaena and the literal heir were both unguarded, and obviously no one is going to reveal the truth of why Cole was absent. That could result in a dramatized and more sinister retelling like the book had, timeline issues notwithstanding. One thing I do wish they'd kept was having both sons be born and having Helaena have to choose, if for no other reason than that I made a sort of "who approved this" joke about the Helaena poster from the "All Must Choose" ad campaign to a few friends and none of them got it, and now they still don't.
Very nice cosplay
Dont really see any point in this world but torture porn and mindless fire and blood, dont eeally see how people enjoy this and pick sides and enjoy this peice of writting.
B&C wasn't "ruined". It's the vocal minority of purists who spent 2 years desperately trying to shape perception & sabotaging a good show for not making their sports team come off as flawless heroes & the other team as irredeemable disney villains. Yet to see a single casual reactor who was not moved. Without the book baggage this would be considered brilliant. Like Daemon mentions how Aemond is a great fighter & smirks when asked what happens if they can't find Aemond. It was obv he knew it was an impossible mission. It seems like a lot of fans can't even catch a simple subtext unless it's dumbed down & bluntly spoonfed. Some of the best parts of this ep were the political intrigue, underscoring logistics of war, the economics of blockade. Everyone paranoid & trying to sway the king. Otto & Alicent on one side but not quite together as Alicent keeps being undermined by the men in her life. Larys on the other side. Aemond & Criston on another side. These subtle political machinations are things D&D can't even dream of doing. The "farewell to peace" parallel with Rhaenyra at the funeral & Alicent at the Sept was another poignant moment.
As for B&C, HOTD just plays these moments differently to GOT. Less about shock, more about creeping unease. Part of watching GoT was about watching other people reacting in horror, surprise, etc. With HOTD I don't feel the pull to watch people shouting at the screen because it would only feel forced. HOTD had so many moments in S1 where it could have gone for a sharp stab a la GoT but instead made sure to play things out slowly. It's less interested in displays of brutality & more interested in the impact on the bigger picture. GoT (& Breaking Bad) was about dramatic moments. Hotd (& Better Call Saul) is more about everything around those moments & plays them out in a way that feels slower, less brutal & more bleak & dread. GoT had so many moments where it stabbed, even if you saw the knife coming. HOTD is more interested in digging its nails & slowly pulling a wound open.
All these "bring back D&D" posts just makes me know that a lot of so-called purists didn't hate GoT's cheap, gawdy, shock value spectacle writing, what they hated was their self-insert (Dany, Jon or Stannis) not sitting the throne. I LOVED the restraint on B&C. This was peak bleak, dread soaked gothic horror. The creeping horror of the haunting soundtrack with the cutting & sawing noises. The "emotional impact" the MCU brain wanted was heavy-handed head chopping gratuitous violence. But unsettling silent terror will always be more disturbing than gory theatrics & bright Bridgerton colors that some fans complain about! The book's B&C is an overly sadistic creative writing exercise of cartoon villains (makes sense considering it's made by fictional 'historians'). The extended psychological torment of Helaena strains credibility as B&C had no personal vendetta against her & were risking their own skin playing games in the Red Keep during a war. The show exchanges gore for dread, presents it as a straightforward hit, with the grim realism underscoring the urgency & perilous stakes B&C was in. The banality of evil instead of a Machiavellian plot makes it scarier.
It's easy to write a woman screaming & throwing up. But the brutally real pain, terror & despair Phia managed using only her eyes is more impactful. Helaena's freeze frame reaction was on point with her cassandra character & it was devastating. The total silence surrounding b&c & its aftermath made it even more jarring. Ofc Helaena called Jaehaerys “the boy”as she was traumatized & mimicking the speech of b&c. Her offering the necklace was brilliantly upsetting & endearing cause it shows she was too sheltered to realize what b&c wanted. But then you can pinpoint the exact moment when the switch goes off. It's like she has this moment of realization about what she prolly already foresaw. A look of quiet panic & resignation sets in. You can clearly see her dissociating. she didn't even realize that she got down the stairs. first place her feet takes her is her mother's room for comfort. To wake her up from a nightmare which was alas too real.
I'm in the middle. Yeah it could've been worse and by all accounts it should've been but I hate seeing stuff like that even if its scripted television.
Waaaaah! I didn't get what I wanted! The show didn't fulfill my murderious bloodlust, so im going to say that a show that implied the beheading of a child is woke and politically incorrect because why not?
Are you like 1000 yrs old, too? Lol
House of the Dragone is catering to their overly sensitive, woke, politically correct fan base. They're ruining the book material and it sucks.
As opposed to catering to someone like you