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How do Power Cables work? - Demo Shunyata Research - Hifi Studio Wilbert Utrecht
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- čas přidán 20. 05. 2019
- How does power work? And how do Power Cables Influence the performance of a system? We filmed the presentation of Shunyata Research at Hifi Studio Wilbert in Utrecht - The Netherlands
I’ve watched this video a few times to try and process/absorb its content/message. I’ve failed! Ok, so I’m not an electrician. I’m not a quantum physicist. I’m not an electronics engineer, not even an audio technician. But I do have a good grounding in the sciences, especially physics which was my university forte.i don’t give a flying fig how good your cables are, or what noise reduction technology has gone into their production. The simple and over riding fact is that the very first thing any audio component will do, is take that incoming mains power, regardless of what processing or filtering it may have been subjected to, and convert it from AC, to DC. This eliminates noise and harmonics carried by that AC power.
As regards your ‘QRBB’, which you loosely describe as a balloon filled with electrons, ready for release as and when required. Well, is that not exactly what the bank of capacitors does in any well designed component?
You describe power as being ‘instantly dynamic’ and not linear. Well, no matter how efficient your cables may be at delivering power to a component, the first thing that power will pass through when it reaches a component, is that component’s internal fuse. A short length of high resistance wire designed to overheat and melt, breaking the circuit should the occasion demand.
I’m not claiming that all cables are the same. You would not take the cable from your 40w bedside lamp and use it to connect your 1.5kw heater to the wall mains out, would you? But, on the other if you used the cable from that heater to connect your lamp to the mains, would it make that lamp perform better? I think not.
If I seriously thought an €1100 power cable would improve the performance of my hifi, I would still choose to invest that €1100 in upgrading components.
Often, I think costly solutions Are fabricated to solve non existent or at least, trivial issues.
Enjoy the music.
This sums up the pretentious side of this hobby perfectly. Audio is about listening to music, not marketing seminars.
Thanks for that video , its interesting but i would have loved to hear a demo coming from a generic cable and then a Shunyata cable.
FWIW, I've tried it. That's why I don't use the generic cord.
We are creating more and more sample video's in which you can experience the differences.
BTW, from an engineering perspective, and I happen to have a PhD degree in electrical engineering, with plenty of experience designing and building switching power supplies for an Israeli company called Advice, there could be no audible difference between an 8$ and 6000$ power cables.
The best results in terms of EMI noise immunity can be achieved by a cheap DIY power cable with the two main wires (live and neutral) twisted together, and the ground wire wrapped around them and acting as a shield. Such a cable will cost you 10$ to make. Exotic copper wires don't make any difference, the same goes for LC-based EMI filers, which are already included in the audio components.
Moreover, the sound quality is not affected by additive high-frequency EMI noise. Audio components need DC power to work. Assuming its a good high-quality component, then all necessary efforts were already taken by the manufacturer to insure clean dc power supply, regardless of the ac mains conditions...
At the company, I worked for, we had one product which was a true sine online UPS. We did many blind A/B tests using a high-quality audio system and nobody could tell the difference.
Exotic power cables are the biggest selling snake oil products... Audiofools love them and are obsessed with them... It's a great business... any idiot who got scammed and paid 1000$ per one meter of power cable will do anything to convince himself that he can hear the difference....
E Barbie see above
Some Folks will never ever understand that Engineering is what counts. Not how much money you spend. This is flat out B.S!
Phd in electrical engineering still the knowledge less than an undergrad in the same domain. Transistors are non linear, super sensitive devices with super complex power consumption profiles. Anything can matter.
I suggest you get your tuition back. Unfortunately you can't recoup the wasted time exhausted. Perhaps its not too late to get a degree in psychology because according to you hundreds of thousands of Audiophiles are experiencing delusions.
E Barbie - 1st Paragraph: but there can be.
I was shocked to hear “we can’t get conclusive results on this analyzer but watch this video we made instead.” Wow. With all the snake oil claims going around that is just unacceptable if you want to prove your claim and product. Also, where was the demo comparison??? All this is is listening to someone tell a story and bio. “Sell don’t tell.”
Rather than a demo to people who are interested in hifi it would be great it you ran a q and a with electrical engineers. I say this as a massive hifi fan. Who would know if you were right or wrong based on this type of presentation?
We can do that.
You're not a HiFi fan. You're a conspiracy fan.
Why doesn't he just show the difference between a bad and a good power cable on the oscilloscope?
Wait don't tell me, it's not actually visible on the oscilloscope, you have to experience it right?
@@Cityj0hn what is an oscilloscoop going to show or prove?
@@Cityj0hn Why don't you take your temperature rectally with a scope? Wait don't tell me, it won't show up.
@@TheAlphaAudio You are probably joking right?
@@TheAlphaAudio it will show that there is some difference at all ! It must not be osciloscope, it can be easily done with recording sound with cable A and cable B and look for differencies. But there is no difference, so measurement is not done by cable impostors ..
People want to be fooled, but not all!
Man in the front is taking it all in, he loves the paper work they have given him.
He is a very good speaker.
And liar too
9.44 - this is only with respect to the active components right, like diodes and transistors. Imo the effect should be a lot more drastic in DACs coz there you're not only playing with the dynamic handling of transistors (along with psrr) but also the fact that the DAC and Oversampler need a clock to function and the clock is controlled and stabilized by a current source.
Passive components like caps don't work that way to my understanding.
He's telling how a cap charges on start-up. but they hold a charge and supply the components with those peaks. Because of very large caps, so the draw is not linear across the power supply.
of course they have a dCS Rossini DAC with clock to get the absolute most out of the sound! 😂
I want you to advise me about power cord used for the AV receiver and Subwoofer. The price is $500 to $1000 What is the best power cord to your experience?
Thanks
Don't be a moron. Use the provided power cables. You'll be throwing 500 to 1000$ down the drain... Better use them to upgrade your system with better components, like a second subwoofer .
Now, from an engineering perspective, and I happen to have a PhD degree in electrical engineering, with plenty of experience designing and building switching power supplies for an Israeli company called Advice, there could be no audible difference between an 8$ and 6000$ power cables.
The best results in terms of EMI noise immunity can be achieved by a cheap DIY power cable with the two main wires (live and neutral) twisted together, and the ground wire wrapped around them and acting as a shield. Such a cable will cost you 10$ to make. Exotic copper wires don't make any difference, the same goes for LC-based EMI filers, which are already included in the audio components.
Moreover, the sound quality is not affected by additive high-frequency EMI noise. Audio components need DC power to work. Assuming its a good high-quality component, then all necessary efforts were already taken by the manufacturer to insure clean dc power supply, regardless of the ac mains conditions...
At the company, I worked for, we had one product which was a true sine online UPS. We did many blind A/B tests using a high-quality audio system and nobody could tell the difference.
Exotic power cables are the biggest selling snake oil products... Audiofools love them and are obsessed with them... It's a great business... any idiot who got scammed and paid 1000$ per one meter of power cable will do anything to convince himself that he can hear the difference....
Just use the free power cable and you're good...
@@ebarbie5016 You are a electrical engineering PhD named Barbie eh? Ok Barb, is it ok to pay 70 bucks for a well built shielded power cable or should I stay with the 10 dollar sht? (No 2000 dollar sht...just 70 bucks vs 10 bucks...) what say you Barb?
@@wa2368 High tech airplanes use non-shielded cables, hundreds of miles of it. what do you think?
This guy sells expensive power cords, How about some info from actual testing engineers who understand how it all works. I can't believe that hi end gear has such crappy power supplies that it doesn't filter, well actually it does and if you looked at the output of the power supply in the gear you would see NO DIFFERENCE. We can measure things that are beyond the ability of human hearing, yet people are hearing differences where differences cannot even be measured. They can also leap tall buildings in a single bound, are faster than a speeding bullet and fight for truth justice and the American way, look up in the sky.......it's..........
Why do you care? Hifi cables are for people interested in hifi, not for engineers. We don't care about measurements or technical explanations. We are interested in what we hear.
@@StefanoCipo87 Well I'm talking about power cords, tho other cables are of some question. When I heard a null test between a give away audio cable and an expensive cable I started to examine some of my beliefs. What I care about is expensive stuff being mis-represented to people that maybe don't have the money to spend on something that only fools you into thinking it sounds better when it could be spent on something that really makes a difference. What we think we hear is not always accurate so we can use measurements and technical explanations to see if it's real or placebo. And audiophiles are all hung up on measurements, Except when they show up placebo improvements.
@@bradt.3555 i don’t have experience with very expensive power cables, but have tried several good cables (100€ per meter plus connectors , diy), and on my modest (but quite resolute) 10-20k€ system they do make a very noticeable difference, much more than interconnects and speaker cables. In fact, in my experience everything related to power always made a very noticeable difference, including connectors, inlets, power strips, filters, fuses. Your experience might be different, I don’t question this, but I will not question my experience which is very clear. i don’t need scientists to tell me whether my perceptions are true or not, nor in audio nor in other fields. I think more expensive cable could sound better, otherwise they couldn’t have a market (of course there could be bad products that people like to buy just because are very expensive). I don’t like and don’t believe the pseudo science to explain why they work, I would appreciate more they told the truth, they designed cables by trial and error, and by experience, and found some that sound really good.
@@StefanoCipo87 Well i'll try to keep it short as you seem to be in the camp of denying expectation bias. If we expect something to sound different it likely will even if it doesn't. That's where science comes in. There is just nothing a 6 foot power cord can do that will change the output of the devices power supply. There has to be a difference in the signal going to the speakers to have a diff. in sound this is fact, it can be measured. The market is there because manufacturers understand "placebo effect" and use it quite effectively.
@@bradt.3555 I know what expectation bias is, I'm a physician and researcher. However I cannot deny my perceptions, which are not subtle and are repeatable. Yes I don't deny I'm victim of bias sometimes, that can happen when we expect a difference to exist. However in my experience the differences in sound when it's bias are subtle, I have a feeling that something has changed but I'm not sure. Going back and forth with the change (cable or other) doesn't clear things up. Ultimately I realize there's no difference. Other times differences are not subtle, are so obvious I cannot question their existence, same as anybody would not question actually seeing something in front of their eyes. In these cases changes are 100% reversible going back and forth. Expectation bias has not worked the first time I tried a good calbe (diy yarbo OCC cable) on my system. I really hoped there to be an improvement in sound compared to stock power cord, but there wasn't. There was the "maybe I feel something different, better bass" thing, but it didn't confirm and I ended up not using the cable. Months later, after having upgraded the speakers I tried the cable again on my preamp, and it did make a very noticeable difference. I then tried different cables and found how important they are. Expectation bias also didn't work when I bought the iFi AC purifier, sold it because it made no difference. But a different, better AC filter I tried made a big improvement, and I still use it. Expectation bias didn't work when adding a supertweeter to my system, and I really believed it would have made a difference, since the manufacturer of my speakers told me so. I could go on and on, the point is I'm sure about my perceptions and cannot question them, to me that would be crazy. I believe you didn't experience differences in power cables, it can be due to a number of reasons, including not listening to a system/power cable combination where a difference actually is noticeable, your hearing not being capable of telling the difference, you having a reversed expectation bias (since there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon, it cant' exist), or maybe you hear a difference but are confident it is actually a bias and not a real perception. I couldn't know what is the case. As for measurements, that is not my field, but I can think it could be that not everything that makes the sound we hear what it is is actually measurable with current equipment. Or we don't measure the right things. To me to show two sweep responses that overlap only means that probably if I listen to sweep responses on that system they will sound the same, but who listens to sweep responses on their hifi systems? Music is a different thing from sweeps and pink noise. I can think of many other reasons why measurements could not reveal a difference but I don't have technical knowledge so I'll keep them for myself
I honestly thought you pulled out a snake.
Yes Snake Oil.
Haha
Yes a lot of talk but no demo.
I am an engineer too but that many mixed bullshit
Try an English degree next
@@davroster so from the fact that ii may wrote incorrectly something discredits what im saying….ok
This seems to be an honest a scientifically legitimate presentation. I'm definitely considering getting a Shunyata power cord.
It's silly to share this kind of information on youtube, why you may ask, if Accuphase or Luxman or other big players in HIFI will find out that power cables are improving their sound, they might consider to ship their equipment with that kind of cables and boom! shunyata is out of business.
McIntosh amps come with a Shunyata power cable in the box😉
I recently received a power cable , which (including - burn-in ) cost me just over £200 .I have tried a variety of music's and cannot hear a difference.
because there is no difference :-D
That's right!
Power cables most definitely matter. On the power amp (strangly) it has less influence as connecting to a Dac. But your system has to be in balance and good... then most people should hear a difference. With cables u can tweak it a bit more to your liking (when the rest is good). You cant make a crappy system great by cables. But a good balanced one you can make sound better or worse.
Replying to ( E ). perhaps I should have spent a lot more on the cable and I agree you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. The system I have is a Quad artera pre plus CD player matched to the matching Quad power amp.The XLR interconnect - Tellurium Q Black Diamond £1,200. - the speaker cables inc:- jumper leads Audio Quest Rocket 88 to ATC scm 40s standing on Townshend podiums .Mains block is the Swedish company Supra 6 gang. So perhaps an upgrade to the mains filtration ? ⚡
@@andrewaajohnson7584 I have red on a forum a few days ago that upgrading from a Supra (cant remember which one but could be the 6 and to which one) made a significant change.
The most important thing of course is the phase of the power cables in the mains (and the mains). They must be all correct. I cant measure so use my ears on what sounds best for all components. Yesterday my system sounded wrong, no strong basic and out of phase. Turned out my power amp was plugged in wrong. (We have EU connectors, maybe US is one way only). After founding which was plugged out of phase everything sounded correct again.
Oh, and more expensive doesnt always mean better (often it does).
I even heard a 5k system on a show that was perfectly balanced. Great!
Before that we heard a 200k system that sounded not in balance, too bright and so on... And another 80k system with a expensive record player sounded amazing....!!
Record a sample with cable A Record a sample with cable B
Both should be with headphone in or whatever output can be recorded line level.
Reverse phase of one sample. Play both at the same time. Is there is a sound. There is s difference. If not, there is no difference.
A patented storage device for electrons?????????
dragocat1 - they also have a venom series of cables because of their snakes
It's like a tube around the cable or like a two dimension capacitor. You better not put your fingers on it. It gives back power spikes when the cable is "loosing his breath".
It's only a metallic tube, but it's patented, don't try to copy that !
Always remember: "pAtEnTS ProVe thAt It wOrkS!" as implied by every snake oil salesman ever. I read part of the patent, it's a weirdly shaped capacitor with a high value resistor across the plates at the end of it. You can find it here: patents.google.com/patent/US10031536B2/en
Power comes from coal fired plants and natural gas. Creates steam to turn the turbines. Not from windmills and solar and it also comes from hydro electric (Think a dam).
of course power also comes from wind and solar
@@divertiti lol. Come on man. Let's go Brandon. How many houses in the world are powered by wind and solar?
@@roofermarc1 Of course the most ignorant comment on this video comes from one of the pussies who doesn't have the balls to say the words they want to say, hiding behind a moronic euphemism, of course.
@@roofermarc1 Certainly more Houses in Europe than in the US. But, sorry to tell you that: you guys are fabricating world class speakers, amps and cables. But aside that, you are not the reference for technical state of the art. Especially not in the utilization and production of electrical power.
@@divertiti renewables right! We must invest in them. How about splitting the country in half and we pick a side! A group. Anybody is welcome and there is no refusal to let you in, you cannot swap sides once you've chosen though. Could you imagine the prosperity of one over the other?
Complements for your English.Still I found out that cables with "noise", sounds better. Why? Because the sound overall is more natural.
Thanks for your comment and compliment!
Good demo!
For the love of God, wake up and get an engineering degree!! Power cables don't do anything except convey that last meter in a two hundred mile chain of wires from the power plant output to your home.
👍🍻
Wrong
Guessing you haven't tried any or your rocking a dismal av amp
religion
😆 🤣 lol
Watched a few minutes of this epic bs video, now quickly switch to audioholics to get sane again.
That's because Audioholics, who is an engineer and actually tests, flat out say's POWER CORDS MAKE NO DIFFERENCE in what comes out of the device!
@@bradt.3555 if you have ever tried a different power cord (any one that has a lower impedance than a stock item) then you would know they do make a difference to the sound. If this is value for money is another matter.
Just because you measure something does not necessarily make the measurement correlate to the effect or outcome you are trying to understand.
@@richardpalmer9616 Yes I have tried different power cords. To know if there's an impedance diff. in a 6 foot piece of wire, you gotta measure it, so measurements DO matter. I've never seen anybody list the impedance of a cord, or DC resistance. And then if there were a diff. which in a 6 foot cord would be virtually UN-measurable. It would have to be so small a wire as to affect the voltage (based on current draw). Check the wattage draw of say your power amp, not output, but max power consumption, then divide by your voltage, see what your amp draws. That would be max peaks at max volume. Or measure what your amp actually draws then see how tiny the wire would have to be to actually get a voltage drop. Then you have the filter caps in the power supply which will handle instantanious peaks because of their large value. The supply side of the power supply won't even see the ups and downs of a musical program. Remember there's not audio signal here it's raw power for the power supply. What comes out of the power supply is what's used to turn into audio signal. Unless a cord is defective or WAY to small for the current needs of the device, a power cord cannot change the sound. Listening to people describe how a cord does anything is like listening to Jordi LaForge explain how the dilithium chamber works. I have enough years of electrical exp. that I can make up tecno-babble that sounds totally believable but is meaninless. Sound is produced from an electrical signal making a speaker move. Same signal- same sound, it can be measured, has been and the effects of a power cord, by electrical engineers, sorry no go. I apologize for the length, it's hard to explain without just saying no they don't.
@@bradt.3555 hey thanks for the reply, and I am also an engineer in past life, I used to be an academic (senior lecturer) so for sure I understand the value of measurement and the scientific method. I can however hear differences in mains power cables, it would be slightly ludicrous to imagine the entire market for such a product was reminiscent of the emperors clothes. If you have a sensibly revealing system and you make the effort to listen I am sure the majority of people could hear such changes.
I also recognise scientific mumbo jumbo boiled down to and icon and an acronym doesn't help sell any authenticity to me and many others.
Cables even when they should logically not, do make a difference. Better knowledge and science I believe could explain this in the future - but not know it seems.
Worst presenter in the world 😢
Better use a pinnyada to hook up your audio component to the AC mains that use this snake oil shinyada... Power cables do not make any audible difference! P. S I'm an electrical engineer with a PhD degree... Just use the free power cable that came with your component..
E Barbie You have employed scientism into your thought, i.e., if you can’t measure it it, you can’t know it. I say that your instrumentation needs further development. I can hear differences in cabling whether power, interconnect, or speaker. Of course if you have cheap components you will never hear what component changes can do.
Hmmm. I figured a PhD would know how to spell pinata.
@@Mike82ARP There are three types of PhDs online. The ones that are just lying, they really don't have a degree, the ones who have a degree but it's in philosophy and then you have the ones who own Bose. It never occurs to these morons that these companies are founded by engineers and or have engineers employed working for them. Many of them openly admit they don't understand why cables sound different. So, we either have incompetent engineering schools or maybe there is something to this cabling controversy.
P.S. I guess they don't teach PhDs to engage a spell check program either or how to use punctuation.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt You don't understand why a mains cable can't change anything so you resort to ad hom.
@@MrsZambezi You don't know why it can and you can't spell ad hominem so why should anyone take you seriously? Forty years in this business and taken on many idiots online. P.S. Only pussies ever get butt hurt over argumentum ad hominem. I spelled it out in it's entirety so you can learn at least one thing from me.
molecular level...say it with me class.........
Aftermarket power cables make no difference at all. Use the one in the box!
@@nickvankreij1626 Changing a power cable doesn't do anything at all on any hifi system, which you would know for yourself if you understood electronics. It's one of those instances where knowledge helps you to weed out the nonsense (and there's a heck of a lot in hifi).
@@MrsZambezi You have no idea about what you speak. It's as plain as the Bravo Sierra you are shoveling.
Aftermarket tires make no difference at all. Use the ones that came with your car.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Tyres wear and make a big difference. Sometimes they make the difference between life and death.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xtThen it should be no problem for you to explain how a power cable can affect performance. Go ahead.
Kind of sounds like a cult. But that may be because I'm using lousy power cables.
If you’re a nonbeliever…fine. It’s the behavior that’s curious…to denounce something that you don’t believe in to begin with…gives credence that there’s a probability that it may exist.