Snagging list 1. It has been pointed out those are probably P-51Bs / IIIs and not Ds, I suspect I have fucked up there 2. Fraizer was 78, and *that* was the fight Ali got hurt. My bad There will be other things, I've no doubt
@tofubutcher7456 you know what, this is much funnier, I'm not editing it and will claim Frazier was still boxing at 78 as cannon. *off to start edit war on Wikipedia*
Big of you lad. Good on ya. Also, very funny. This is an ADHD pleasure beyond general knowledge of Production And Distribution Design Theory while being 1000% more prevalent.
@@AWMJoeyjoejoe There's actually a movie with that premise, called Iron Sky. It's pretty good provided you start watching about three beers deep and keep drinking.
Might I just say how pleased I am that the upper class are now making themselves bloody useful again. Since the demand for sabre wielding, scarlet coated gentlemen capable of leading heroic and occasionally suicidal charges against immense odds atop their spirited mounts has dropped off somewhat of late, it warms the cockles of my otherwise cold Northern working-class heart to hear Lord Hardthrasher's dulcet tones educating and entertaining us in these most difficult times. I note that you have neither torn a strip off of me, nor have you instructed any of your lackeys to carry out said task as it is well below your station to speak with a ranker other than when commanding last stands on remote mountain tops. God bless you, Sir....and the missus too. And God save the King. Doffs cap.
(I was wondering if the local tech had started running classes in cap doffing and forelock touching....this sort of thing was advertised back the day (the 1980s) as "A Return to Victorian Values".)
Another great video with some amazing film clips. The boxing analogies are fitting to the air campaign. It was a bruising encounter, but the numbers favored the allies. The sacrifices of that generation were made so that we could live in peace today and we should always recognize their efforts and achievements. God bless and best wishes. 😊
My wife is Welsh. She is delighted that you think her nationality is a swear word. I’ll leave another super thanks…you just keep getting better and better.
Dare I mention another channel, but 'RobWords' did an episode recently about the origins of the names England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. You wife might enjoy the Welsh section, but I'd stand well back, if I were you :)
Another fine example of a history documentary beautifully delivered in a traditional English style. Thanks my lord , looking forward to the next exciting installment ❤
Many years ago when I was about 18 years old, a friend of mine and i spent an evening talking with a man who was a B-17 radioman. They were shot down on the second day of "Big Week" on their 5th mission and spent the rest of the war as a POW. He was intensly proud of his contribution in making the Normandy landings free of Luftwaffe interference. I can still see him to this day, 35 years later, sitting up in his chair, jaw resolute, banging his hand on the dining room table as he made that point. I wish to Christ that I had recorded our chat, or at the very least taken notes! In spite of riding out the next 15 months behind barbed wire, he and everyone he served with were proud that they served and what they had collectively accomplished! Keep doing what you are doing, my good sir, your channel is pure gold!
I can’t speak to the accuracy as I’m not well read on the history, but the work independent CZcams historians are doing puts traditional channels to shame. So good.
Some of them. There are a few Adolf fans out there spreading bs about the Western Allies deliberately starving German POWs etc. Also fan boys for guys like Wittmann, the SS etc. Sad nuts the lot of them
One detail -- the RAF had a night fighter program using mainly Mosquitos. The force had two objectives, one group being detailed to lurk around night fighter stations points and take out anything that took off, the other went hunting the hunters.. It was a very low profile program and as you can imagine it required really skilled crews but it appears to have been quite effective, especially at scaring the pants off German night fighter crews. A fun, and informative, set of videos BTW.
Yeah, it was low profile, and it did damage but compared to the daylight fights it was low level. It is, however, worth pointing out that in 1944 there were an astronomical number of accidents in the Luftwaffe, I want to say 3,000 dead but I'd need to check. Part of that was trying to get inexperienced aircrew to fly and land in the dark, with the risk of getting shot down by some shark of a Mossie painted black and lurkint near the end of the runway
@@HardThrasher Have you done anything on how the Germans went about trying to train pilots once there were long range fighters in operation? I remember from one book that the few surviving experienced German pilots had a word to describe the way new pilots were being sent to die, kinder... something, can't remember the actual word. We sent crews all of the world to learn to fly somewhere safe and the US obviously had no worries on this score. I just wondered where the Germans were sending people to learn and whether an effort was made to find the training bases and exterminate the crews while there?
This is very good, sir. And I must say i find that there is a striking similarity in Doolittles' attitude in fighting the Luftwaffe as Grant had in fighting the Confederate Army. That is: grab your opponent by the shirt collar and keep hitting them in the face until your hear a slight gurgling noise, then hit them some more. For Grant it resulted in the Overland campaign: a series of battles that while suffering 45% casualties (out of about 150k) in the Army of the Potomac, pinned/wore down the Army of Northern Virginia (50% of 60-65k) and ended Lees' ability to wage any offensive operation for the rest of the war. And thus allowed other US commanders (like Sherman and Sheridan) to advance deep into enemy territory and effectively destroy the Confederate ability to wage war. I do hope this comment, while tangential, is a worthy sacrifice to the capricious god known as Al-G'rythm so he might continue to bring you much success happiness.
M’Lord: Could I be so bold as to make a suggestion: have you thought about making another of your brilliant series about 617 Squadron’s war? Obviously, the Dams are known to all, and Tirpitz by most, but I’m not sure if I’ve seen a detailed telling of the entirety of 617’s truly astonishing exploits - certainly not for many a year. I, for one, would LOVE to see how you detailed Gibson, Martin, Cheshire et al careers. Yours in quivering anticipation.
He was a very frustrated man towards the end of the war, as he interpreted the American's movements as being manipulated by Stalin. I actually don't think the Americans were quite as naive as Tedder thought - although we Americans are shockingly naive, particularly in comparison to the seemingly suspicious-cunning-by-nature Russians. No, I think the Americans, and Eisenhower in particular, were quite aware of just how close some of their own people were to the upper echelons in the Reich _cough Dulles Brothers cough_ and did not relish the notion of a hostile Red Army right across the Elbe, who might very well simply see the Western allies as a continuation of what Fascism had started. The American tendency to overstate their own force protection is another factor - why waste boys from Iowa when boys from Smolensk were perfectly willing to chuck their bodies at the Seelow Heights? And, finally, yes, naivete. There was a lot of that too.
It is bloody gratifying to get to the point of the war where the sacrifices meant something, heartbreaking as they still are. Thank you Lord HardThrasher, for telling their story and making it a raucous good time at the expense of the idiots who almost ruined it and the Nazi pricks.
Sorry, but 8 .50 caliber guns are better than 6! I'm kidding, of course. They were both excellent fighters, and I think Greg's point is that the P-47 just doesn't get the love it deserves compared to the P-51.
Yes, that was always the point as I understood it as well. I’m certain that the P-47 could have done the job in the end, if the p-51 didn’t work out. However, the P-51 did work out, and boy was it a great plane.
Outstanding stuff, Lord Hardthrasher. Despite its many mis-steps, the singular achievement of the 8th USAAF during the early months of 1944 was the destruction of the Luftwaffe. This was something that RAF Bomber Command simply could not ever have accomplished. No matter how accurately or in what great numbers of bomber sorties or bomb tonnage dropped. There simply weren't that many Luftwaffe night fighters. And the kill ratio of night fighters to bombers was always going to be negative. Your analogy of the tethered goat is, despite its negative connotations, accurate. Daylight raids were going to bring up Luftwaffe fighters. Where they could be shot down by long-range Allied fighters. There would be losses on both sides, but the Americans could afford them, the Luftwaffe could not. By dint of blood, treasure, skill and sacrifice the 8th USAAF defeated the Luftwaffe between January and March 1944. Without that victory, Overlord could not have happened. Neither could the Normandy breakout. Nor Falaise, Market Garden, or the breaching of the Rhine itself. Thats not to take anything away from Bomber Command, or the Oil Plan, the Transportation Plan, or even the firebombing of Hamburg and Dresden. Those massed area bombing campaigns had their effect. Indeed, Carl LeMay basically cribbed the who concept and amped it up to 11 once he got command of the B-29s attacking Japan. But that's another story.
@@fredericksaxton3991 yes the Who Concept arose from LeMay becoming something of a fixture at the very earliest Who concerts. Keith Moon's antics, destroying everything he could get his hands on while drugged to the eyeballs, were particularly inspirational. According to Le May's autobiography, 'Fly Me to the Moon'.
You know this series by our resident CZcams Historiographer/Commentator/Military Proctologist/Member of the Landed Aristocracy with Signature Look of Superiority is equally responsible for keeping me sane while mindlessly working and responding to emails while also spending inordinate amounts of my time while listening to him pontificate about air bombing in WW2 since I always go back and start the whole thing over again when each new episode comes out. 10/10, would imperil my marriage and job by paying more attention to a British man’s dulcet harangue again every time.
So glad to see you're growing at such a rapid pace! I am a huge fan - been binging your other videos since my last comment and was excited to get home from work and watch this one. The way you focus on the people, their decisions and their rationale I find immensely interesting. So often people will simply list events or spout statistics (myself included) and, while informative, it can be quite dull. Really excited to see you catch up and pass my subscriber count within months... hopefully we can collaborate before you become too handsome and too popular!
A small bit of a correction here, but it was actually the P-51B Mustangs that first became operational and provided fighter escort. The D model Mustangs wouldn't begin to operate over Europe until about June 1944. By that time the Luftwaffe was a bit degraded as a fighting force. However, that does not distract from the overall narrative and the point that is being made in this video. Greg's Planes and Automobiles makes the point that if they had enough external fuel tanks in 1943, the P-47 Thunderbolts could have reached farther into western parts of Germany from bases in England. However, with external fuel tanks the P-51 Mustangs could reach western Poland! The Mustang's gas milage was impressive, and that was only one of its many advantages. I would recommend both Greg's and HardThrasher's channels to anyone. They both contain a lot of interesting information.
Hmmm ok, so my sources are irritatingly ambiguous, which suggests my dyslexic little mind could easily have conflated B for D and I shall stand corrected
That Greg video is rather misleading as it contains several factually wrong informations and he seemengly deletes everyone who tries to point that out or simply ignores anything that would put that work in question, or so i've found doing some digging around. It is incorrect enough to have attracted attention even on r/badhistory. In any case he points out to misterious large 200 gal droptanks with little to no evidence as if was properly tested or could be used operationally under the required conditions. Makes confusion between ferry tanks and actual drop tanks. Ferry tanks might not be designed to work in all the condition a combat drop tank is and in fact might not even be droppable but most concerning the altitude at wich they can work. Pressurization was a key issue and the P-47 had to be adapted and modernized for it. If one goes for the argument: They could have done it sooner one can say: Yes and probably they would not have had the same line of tought of the early 1943 USAAF. Greg attempts to make it look like it was all a conspiracy and that the P-51 was favoured only to cover their backs rather than being ready, available and configured for long range escort duties with droptanks, being better suited due to better internal range than the Thunderbolt and that P-47 versions that could reliably escort bombers to their targets were not available drammatically sooner and not for the Schweinfurt Raid. This does not mean that Greg is bad but that specific video gave me bad vibes the first time i saw it and i wasn't the only one.
As a slightly more serious aside, I think the P51 Mustang is an excellent example of one of the reason why the Allies prevailed - that is, they co-operated fairly effectively. Not only strategically, but in terms of weapons development and technological transfers. American plane made for the Brits, the fitted with British engine (albeit made by HP in the US under licence). Similar story with proximity fuses and the cavity magnetron radar. Nothing like that evident on the Axis side.
It’s Nanny’s night off, and Pater is off out to the Hellfire Club (only seems to go on the nights that Nanny is off). Mater will, no doubt, have one of her ‘headaches’. Which leaves me and Merican Minor to indulge in our passion - history. Not sure we agree with @youdouche6805 - we’re finding that having the facts enables us to see where Apple are playing to the home crowd - Norden, RAF/USAAF friction, RAF ineptitude, Norden, only the US doing any fighting , Norden . . .
Great work Lord HardThrasher. At the risk of, well I absolutely am, repeating myself, I've read Harris's book and he fairly honestly covered how he'd resisted having Bomber Command assigned to bombing tactical targets in France to support the coming invasion. From memory he didn't want his force turned aside from bombing Germany as he wanted to keep the pressure up and was still convinced that the way to beat them was trashing their territory until they couldn't prosecute the war any further. He then went on to say that his aircraft and men proved very effective in that tactical role and did a bang up job. So he was honest....ish I guess.
The elite pilots of the channel front fighter squadrons were destroyed by P47s in December 43. The P51s that showed up in early 44 were of course P51B and Cs. Great video.
Bloody good show Thrasher! I know a lot of this already but you provide nuggets of illumination combined with a humorous and insightful delivery. Damn good sir. As you were. Carry on.
Lord Hard Thrasher - please accept my compliments. Your take on the Tedder/Harris dynamic was a revelation to me. At this age of 72 I have absorbed a lot of twaddle concerning the bombing campaign against Germany by the RAF and the USAAF. This discourse of yours has simplified things for me at a time when simplification makes sense. I remain obsessed with the subject and all of my first-hand resources have already passed-on.
Nice to hear the shout outs to Gregs. I don't think his argument is that the P-47 is better than the P-51, his recent video on Human Factors shows how much better the cockpit layout was on the P-51, and the visibility in a P-51 compared to a Razorback P-47, there is no comparison really. My takeaway from Greg's videos is that the P-47 fought the Luftwaffe in its prime, because it was the best plane that the Army could deploy in numbers at the time. It could have done more in terms of escorting bombers if Army politics hadn't held it back, it had more than enough power up high to do it, and could carry enough fuel to do it with drop tanks. It set up the big win that the P-51 capitalised on and was then able to get all those lovely stats later in the war against less experienced pilots with less flying hours. I've truly been loving this series of yours and look forward to the next episode.
And that was the fifth I've watched tonight. Thank you, again. I look forward to the next installment... whenever it's ready. As I'm in Australia, I'll just say "Good night and well done!"
Sir, I write in complaint of finger nail collectors of the world! Having been a keen collector for over 3 decades I can assure you it's a most relaxing and interesting hobby! Sir, an apologies required as your obviously a absolute shower! As for weather forecasting try seaweed and a pine cone, never fails. Yours, Lord Lucan c/o Unit 5 The Rubber Room The Stromberg Institute Switzerland. P.S I was the Captain of HMS Bismarck 😂😂😂 Great video as ever!
Doolittle, who had balls made from a material not yet known to man, returned from China thinking he would be court martialed since he effectively lost his entire command. Much to his surprise he got the MoH and was promoted two ranks at once. That man needs his own video hard AF.
Good Series. Been binging it and thoroughly ejoying it, especially the manner. Good show, Hardtrasher! A thought: The P-51 came on the scene when the Jagdwaffe had already been gutted and reduced to a few experten and a large number of rather ropey pilots. That was the result of the P-47s (and to a lesser extent P-38) grinding away over 1943 and early 1944 as well as losses in North Africa and the Soviet Union. It was also due to the Luftwaffe's instructor pilot cadre getting torn apart in the Stalingrad and Tunisia airlifts. The LW used the Ju-52 transport as its primary training aircraft and they were thrown into those airlifts and chewed up (from Williamson Murray 'The Luftwaffe 1939-45: Strategy for Defeat). The LW's training program never recovered. The pilots for the P-51s had learned their trade flying the P-47, which quite reliably got them home and that too is a reason to not slight the Jug. None of that means the P-51 wasn't good, but that comparing its loss ratios to those of other fighters that had gone against the LW at its prime or at least closer to it is misleading. The same kind of thing is true in the Pacific as well. The F6F Hellcat gets the glory and the gaudy kill ratios, far better than the F4F Wildcat's, but it was the Wildcat that was there to hold the line during the great carrier battles (Coral Sea, Midway, Santa Cruz Islands and Eastern Solomons) and then to win the Guadalcanal campaign with minor help from Bell Airacobras (and the SBDs operating against IJN forces from Henderson field to control the seas). The Wildcat was still the most important fighter for the Solomons campaign, though with increasing help from P-38s and F4U Corsairs as the campaign went on. By the time the Hellcat came on the scene the IJN's excellent pre-war pilot cadre was all but exterminated and much of the IJAs pilot cadre that had been thrown into the Rabaul meatgrinder and into the fighting at New Guinea with it. The Hellcat didn't see action until mid-'43 when the only question was just what would it cost to finish Japan off.
I hear you, but I disagree. The fighter component of the Luftwaffe was, until January 1944, always able to retreat into Germany, regroup and go again. The superior range of the P-51 (with no tanks greater than Jan 44 P-47s with tanks) meant they hadn't anywhere to hide. Luftwaffe loss rates sky rocketed from Jan 44, leading to the Nazis forming their Fighter Staff to finally switch production from bombers to fighters and hence the massive spike in German fighter production in 1944 (at the cost of almost everything else) The P-47 was very good, it definitely made a huge difference to bomber survivability inside its cover area but the stats don't lie - P-51s in Jan and Feb 44 shot down 3x more per sortie.
@@HardThrasher My thinking is kind of like your thinking on whether the US won the First World War ("win the war they certainly didn't"). It's not slighting the value of the P-51's range, but putting it into its proper historical context/ BTW, I didn't go hunting for material, but today I binged the China series (which made a lot of sense in light of things going on visibly rather than the old 'Kremlin watching').and was struck by the US WW1 comment when I did.
Lord Hardthrasher talked about the increasing accuracy and potency of RAF Bomber Command by February 1944, although things did go a bit pear-shaped on the night of 30/31 March 1944 on the Nüremberg raid. One man, imho, who deserves great credit for this was AVM Donald Bennett, AOC-in-C No. 8 Group, the Pathfinders. Originally trained as a fighter pilot, he became an airline pilot with Imperial Airways, developed the composite aircraft for long-range mail flights, earned a navigator's certificate and wrote a weighty tome on air navigation. In the early part of the war he helped develop the ferry flight routes from N America to GB, became a bomber squadron commander on Halifaxes before being ordered to set up the Pathfinders, much against Harris' wishes. In short the outstanding RAF bomber commander of the war.
And it's worth remembering that the Mustang wasn't designed for the US initially. The British committee that came over the US to buy hardware had initially asked North American to license-build P-40s. North American said they could more quickly design their own fighter that could be built on their production lines than convert them to build someone else's aircraft. It wasn't until the RAF started receiving Mustangs, and then equipping them with RR Merlins, that everyone realized that it was a really good aircraft.
I should warn you, Lord Thrasher, that the following review of your video does contain a swear word. That was f*cking brilliant. Quite the most informative video on this topic I've seen. Understanding the personalities, planning and politics puts the whole air war of that period in a different light.
Without a doubt one of the best historians on CZcams. An insightful and entertaining synthesis of the air war in Western Europe. Given the scope of the daylight B-17 and B-24 aircrew losses it makes you wonder what would have happened if they had substituted for the de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito.
Have to say, while it is with the benefit of hindsight, it's truly staggering seeing how much Doolittle turned 8th Airforce's fortunes around in so little time by focusing on what his job was instead of Harris and co's near outright insubordination via their near-religious they knew better than the overall commanders about how to defeat Germany by themselves... If only Doolittle, or someone else sane, had been in charge from the get go 8th Airforce probably wouldn't have nearly bled out 3 times previously...
Excellent once again Thrashy, I have a small but perfectly formed collection of WD Jerry cans, one 1944, which has a stamped metal label 'ac 100' - obviously denotes 100 octane aircraft fuel, hurrah and thanks to Mr Doolittle, however it is now still serviceable and provides red diesel for my 1941 kelvin j4 for the narrowboat on which I reside... keep up the good work, and a doff of my somewhat oily cap from the Oxford canal !
28:17 - The typical ratio of overclaiming is more like 3:1, so that's quite professional. (It's not that fighter pilots are all glory hounds, though they are, but it's really hard to tell if a plane was shot down unless you track it all the way to the ground)
I spent my life (My father was in the USAF Bomber forces) listening to Airmen's stories in complete awe. Still looking at the loses gave a person pause. I nice to know there was a method to the madness and the went just cocking thing up. Very Much Thanks!
Another good video, well done. Obviously it wasn't pure chance, but the world rarely recognises just how lucky we were to have Tedder and Eisenhower in the same place at the same time; two outstanding leaders. Cometh the hour cometh the man - not always, we were very, very lucky.
In fact the video of the first B-25 taking off was Doolittle himself. First off the Hornet. Talk about balls. Also a pretty good motivator for the other 15 bombers.
17:11 I'm so glad Greg has become a well known figure in the ww2 aviation community. Regardless of his opinions, his technical breakdowns are top fuckin notch
I had to drive through a ditch once to get to a job interview in my wheelchair. Your book might have been helpful for me to avoid having to do that. Will it help me avoid the ditches all together or just help me avoid dying in them? The making War part would be secondary until California falls into the sea and we need to invade and integrate a part of Canada to maintain 50 states. I'm taking suggestions on which part we should invade first.
Constantly brilliant! I have never heard the allied bombing offensive so comprehensively covered in such an eye-opening and brutally honest fashion before. Warts-and-all, success and failures and such a good window into the personalities involved, I would love to read a more in depth coverage of this entire series in a good book - do you write? Your style and insight have been much appreciated by me, I have dropped comments over the last week where I have been following this series, it has had me completely hooked. I think this would translate well into a book format but I would miss your engaging voice, you are gifted sir (and not so many naughty words as we have gone on either, well done!). Look forward to further content.
I really love your channel. I've learned a lot, and have had several of my misconceptions dispelled - I genuinely thank you for that. This might be the only opportunity I have to pay you back in kind: - The Rumble in the Jungle was the first time Ali had ever faced Foreman, so the latter wasn't regarded as his "old nemesis." - Joe Frazier (an actual nemesis of Ali - having beaten him by UD in what was dubbed "The Fight of the Century," before losing the rematch) *had* fought Foreman in '73, losing by shocking TKO inside two rounds. - Ali was certainly past his prime when he fought Foreman, but I've never heard/read about him characterizing The Rumble as "one last championship fight." Ali fought into the early 80s, having numerous historic performances after he left Zaire. - One of those performances was about a year later during his third fight with Frazier - the famous "Thrilla in Manilla. Ali described the experience as "the closest I've ever been to dying." I do believe this fight had a lasting impact on his health. - A tragic shell of his former self, Ali had his actual "last championship fight" against his old sparring partner, Larry Holmes, before losing to Trevor Berbick and finally retiring. Both of these fights were ghastly beatings that lasted a combined 25 rounds because nobody stepped in to stop either fight, and Ali couldn't be knocked out by the 8th Air Force, never mind an ordinary man. It's a real tragedy that Ali fought as long as he did, but what a mark "The Greatest" left on the 20th century.
Cracking vid "telling it like it was" regarding strategy and tactics. Also, a really interesting summary of the politics in the top ranks of the RAF and USAAF. Thank you.
"Speak the speech, I pray you, trippingly on the tongue; etc. The voice is nectar to the ear and the content an ambrosia presenting and explaining particular events of military history that gives a reality to the "stuff" that us drudges, the history students, had to learn by heart; as a series of disconnected boring facts! Presenting the human foibles of the leaders makes it all come alive and make sense of the course and the inevitable outcome. History as it should be taught. Thank you. Congratulations.
Ah, leaving The Carnage of Overlord, for the (at least) USAAF, for later? However, they did free us from McNair! [BTW, will there be a 'medium bomber' war series? The only one I've seen is Catch 22.]
Simply brilliant, possibly the best account of this period that I have come across on YT. I also learnt something new, re the role of the RAF listening service assisting 8th Fighter Command. The statistics are very sobering in terms of death and destruction on both sides. I too am something of a Doolittle "fanboy" and likewise with Tedder and Conningham. How Leigh-Mallory got on Eisenhower's staff is another matter and my opinion of Oliver Echols, the man who did his best at Materiel Command to kill off the P-51 is something I will draw a discrete veil over. Thank goodness for the P-51 B/C and the remarkable resin impregnated paper drop tanks that Arnold had the nerve to criticise Freeman for slow production of. Curiously Materiel Command drew no criticism for failing to come up with anything as remotely original.
So I had known for a long time that the arrival of the P-51D marked the turning point in the air war in Europe, and i knew that the P-51s were primarily responsible for shattering the Luftwaffe as an effective fighting force. What I didn't know was that US commanders had literally decided to use the bombers as bait. I had been under the impression that the escorting fighters destroyed the attacking Luftwaffe fighters as part of protecting the bombers. I also hadn't really internalized how fast it happened. In just 5 months, the Luftwaffe was shattered, after several years of ineffectual results. That's just crazy to me. Thanks for the video, interesting information as always.
Those figures for aircraft in the air on the 6th March are eye-popping. I condider myself a bit of a WW2 plane buff, but this is the first time I've heard of this battle. Thank you M'Lord for such a well researched and informative video
This series has been an absolute banger... I'll admit I'm the person whose eyes glaze over when engine types get mentioned but the overall description as to how this played out is rather good
i heard that when a reporter asked Doolittle if the luftwaffe was greatest airforce in the world he said "shit they arent even the greatest airforce over berlin right now"
For any viewer curious about who the "well regarded CZcamsr who's done 9 hours on the P-47" that HardThrasher refers to at the 17:20 mark, HardThrasher is referring to the Greg's Airplanes & Automobiles channel. And, for what it's worth, I don't think it's accurate to suggest that there's disagreement between Greg and HardThrasher on whether the P-47 or the P-51 was a "better" fighter escort (and I suspect Greg would find the idea rather besides the point--which is better, an apple or an orange?). Greg argues the P-47 is woefully underappreciated today (and, hence, why he made his 8 videos). Greg's argument is basically the following: (A) the P-47 was the best all-around fighter-bomber of WWII (i.e., if a nation could only have 1 platform from among any of the various combatants, its best bet would be to go with the P-47); (B) the P-47 did more to defeat the Luftwaffe than the P-51 because the P-47 was the dominant USAAF fighter in 1943-1944 and thus began the Luftwaffe's death spiral (which the P-51 gets too much glory for in 1944-45); and (C) the USAAF's 'bomber mafia' (starting with Hap Arnold at the top) knowingly refused to provide drop tanks for the P-47 in 1943, which the USAAF easily could have done if it had wanted to, thereby limiting their range and precluding the possibility for P-47 fighter escorts on bombing raids into Germany in 1943 (most famously at Schweinfurt) out of an adherence to provably false pre-war USAAF doctrine that heavy bombers did not require fighter escort on precision daylight bombing raids. Greg argues that the notion it wasn't possible for the USAAF to provide fighter escorts on bombing runs into Germany until the Merlin-equipped P-51 came along in early 1944 is a myth purposefully created by the 'bomber mafia' to hide the fact that they needlessly (and stupidly) got a lot of 8th Air Force crewmen killed in 1942/1943 by refusing to allocate resources to long range fighter escort.
Bloody brilliant, i hope one day your channel and videos get the recognition you deserve. Your style of writing and speaking makes it VERY easy to listen for hours.
Let's not forget that General Doolittle won the Thompson and Bendix air races. I believe he's the only one that took the Triple Crown of air racing. He was always modest and self deprecating. I'm definitely a "fanboy" myself, truly an impressive Man.
You know, my interest in aviation has taken a hard dive in recent years into the realms of disinterest to outright distain for all flying things (beyond missiles). However, your content and the way to go about presenting it has utterly captured my attention.
Excellent! I’ve been able to watch another of Lord Hardthrasher’s excellent (and highly nutritious) videos. Matron will be furious. Superb video sir! Please do feel free to pour yourself another Rolls-Royce.
One of the gentlemen over on the WW 2 podcast insists the air offensive in 44 was focused on industry, the subsequent reduction of the Luftwaffe was a by product. The WW 2 podcast is excellent. However I suspect destroying the Luftwaffe was a priority alongside the destruction of industry.
16:50 - minor quibble. The P-51D only started arriving in late 1944. The Mustang force in early 1944 was made up of B and C models with the turtledeck rear fuselage and four machine guns. These were actually faster than the D, and apparently on VE Day half of the Mustangs in theater were still Bs and Cs.
Just to clarify Greg's position (i confess i am a huge fanboy of his) on the p47 vs p51- i dont think you will find disagreement with regarding which was the better escort fighter. In fact, if pressed, he might say, as i would, that the p51 was probably the best fighter of the war (i say this reluctantly, as i love the Spitfire). Only that the p47 made perhaps a more important, or at least somewhat overlooked, contribution since it was effective and available in numbers at a time when the p51 was not. Also that the p47 could have won even more glory if it was used with the droptanks that were also available. That it wasnt was also due to Bomber Mafia misjudgement.
Thank you for another entertaining, informative and engaging video. Not only is that sentiment true but I'm told that those are words the algoritthm particularly likes to see.
Snagging list
1. It has been pointed out those are probably P-51Bs / IIIs and not Ds, I suspect I have fucked up there
2. Fraizer was 78, and *that* was the fight Ali got hurt. My bad
There will be other things, I've no doubt
Ds nuts
Crazy Frazier was still fighting at 78 years old
@tofubutcher7456 you know what, this is much funnier, I'm not editing it and will claim Frazier was still boxing at 78 as cannon.
*off to start edit war on Wikipedia*
@@HardThrasher you could even use your own video as a source.
Big of you lad. Good on ya. Also, very funny. This is an ADHD pleasure beyond general knowledge of Production And Distribution Design Theory while being 1000% more prevalent.
Jimmy Doolittle: *sees enemy capital unexploded*
Jimmy Doolittle: Absolutely fucking not
Very ironic name
Jimmy Doolittle was and is a legendary figure in aviation. One of America’s best imo as a Brit
🇬🇧🇺🇸
Like a beaver hearing rushing water.
As an American, it's exciting to hear Lord HardThrasher talk about the only phase of the air war the history channel remembers.
The History Channel remembers?
@@thejudgmentalcat Oh, they remember. It's WHAT they remember that's the problem.
They remember that all WWII aircraft technology was gifted by space aliens.
@@jayfrank1913That and the Nazis had a secret moon base.
@@AWMJoeyjoejoe There's actually a movie with that premise, called Iron Sky. It's pretty good provided you start watching about three beers deep and keep drinking.
Might I just say how pleased I am that the upper class are now making themselves bloody useful again.
Since the demand for sabre wielding, scarlet coated gentlemen capable of leading heroic and occasionally suicidal charges against immense odds atop their spirited mounts has dropped off somewhat of late, it warms the cockles of my otherwise cold Northern working-class heart to hear Lord Hardthrasher's dulcet tones educating and entertaining us in these most difficult times.
I note that you have neither torn a strip off of me, nor have you instructed any of your lackeys to carry out said task as it is well below your station to speak with a ranker other than when commanding last stands on remote mountain tops.
God bless you, Sir....and the missus too. And God save the King. Doffs cap.
(I was wondering if the local tech had started running classes in cap doffing and forelock touching....this sort of thing was advertised back the day (the 1980s) as "A Return to Victorian Values".)
Well spoken Sir !!!
Another great video with some amazing film clips. The boxing analogies are fitting to the air campaign. It was a bruising encounter, but the numbers favored the allies. The sacrifices of that generation were made so that we could live in peace today and we should always recognize their efforts and achievements. God bless and best wishes. 😊
What a wonderful way to (almost) end a month,
and Cue the entrance of the P-51 "Cadillac of the skies "
@@OffendingTheOffendable Very true however in the 1940s things were very different
American plane, with a British heart
@@weldonwin 👍👍👍
The Rolls Royce Merlin engine for the Mustang was built by the most aristocratic of US car makers, Packard.
@HarryShaft it should have been called the Packard of the skies, the Merlin in the Mustang was built by Packard.
I never realised the importance of Dolittle's role. Seldom can a man have had such an ill fitting name.
My wife is Welsh. She is delighted that you think her nationality is a swear word. I’ll leave another super thanks…you just keep getting better and better.
Dare I mention another channel, but 'RobWords' did an episode recently about the origins of the names England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. You wife might enjoy the Welsh section, but I'd stand well back, if I were you :)
According to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the word "Belgium" is considered the worst swear in the universe
Another fine example of a history documentary beautifully delivered in a traditional English style.
Thanks my lord , looking forward to the next exciting installment ❤
The best 'Welsh' gag since Red Dwarf.
Many years ago when I was about 18 years old, a friend of mine and i spent an evening talking with a man who was a B-17 radioman. They were shot down on the second day of "Big Week" on their 5th mission and spent the rest of the war as a POW.
He was intensly proud of his contribution in making the Normandy landings free of Luftwaffe interference.
I can still see him to this day, 35 years later, sitting up in his chair, jaw resolute, banging his hand on the dining room table as he made that point.
I wish to Christ that I had recorded our chat, or at the very least taken notes!
In spite of riding out the next 15 months behind barbed wire, he and everyone he served with were proud that they served and what they had collectively accomplished!
Keep doing what you are doing, my good sir, your channel is pure gold!
I can’t speak to the accuracy as I’m not well read on the history, but the work independent CZcams historians are doing puts traditional channels to shame. So good.
Some of them.
There are a few Adolf fans out there spreading bs about the Western Allies deliberately starving German POWs etc.
Also fan boys for guys like Wittmann, the SS etc.
Sad nuts the lot of them
I agree many are good enough to be on the history channel on tv 😎 the bar is on the floor, easy to be better
"Ladies and gents, and everyone in between..."
Spoken like a true diplomat.
"Lords, ladies, and those who lieth betwixt.." -another youtube legend
One detail -- the RAF had a night fighter program using mainly Mosquitos. The force had two objectives, one group being detailed to lurk around night fighter stations points and take out anything that took off, the other went hunting the hunters.. It was a very low profile program and as you can imagine it required really skilled crews but it appears to have been quite effective, especially at scaring the pants off German night fighter crews.
A fun, and informative, set of videos BTW.
Yeah, it was low profile, and it did damage but compared to the daylight fights it was low level. It is, however, worth pointing out that in 1944 there were an astronomical number of accidents in the Luftwaffe, I want to say 3,000 dead but I'd need to check. Part of that was trying to get inexperienced aircrew to fly and land in the dark, with the risk of getting shot down by some shark of a Mossie painted black and lurkint near the end of the runway
The work of 100 (Bomber Support) Group. Mainly based around NW Norfolk.
@@HardThrasher Have you done anything on how the Germans went about trying to train pilots once there were long range fighters in operation? I remember from one book that the few surviving experienced German pilots had a word to describe the way new pilots were being sent to die, kinder... something, can't remember the actual word. We sent crews all of the world to learn to fly somewhere safe and the US obviously had no worries on this score. I just wondered where the Germans were sending people to learn and whether an effort was made to find the training bases and exterminate the crews while there?
For the algorithm: You have your faults, robot, but please recommend more videos like this one.
This is very good, sir. And I must say i find that there is a striking similarity in Doolittles' attitude in fighting the Luftwaffe as Grant had in fighting the Confederate Army. That is: grab your opponent by the shirt collar and keep hitting them in the face until your hear a slight gurgling noise, then hit them some more. For Grant it resulted in the Overland campaign: a series of battles that while suffering 45% casualties (out of about 150k) in the Army of the Potomac, pinned/wore down the Army of Northern Virginia (50% of 60-65k) and ended Lees' ability to wage any offensive operation for the rest of the war. And thus allowed other US commanders (like Sherman and Sheridan) to advance deep into enemy territory and effectively destroy the Confederate ability to wage war.
I do hope this comment, while tangential, is a worthy sacrifice to the capricious god known as Al-G'rythm so he might continue to bring you much success happiness.
M’Lord: Could I be so bold as to make a suggestion: have you thought about making another of your brilliant series about 617 Squadron’s war?
Obviously, the Dams are known to all, and Tirpitz by most, but I’m not sure if I’ve seen a detailed telling of the entirety of 617’s truly astonishing exploits - certainly not for many a year.
I, for one, would LOVE to see how you detailed Gibson, Martin, Cheshire et al careers.
Yours in quivering anticipation.
Good to see Tedder getting a mention, so often overlooked.
He was a very frustrated man towards the end of the war, as he interpreted the American's movements as being manipulated by Stalin. I actually don't think the Americans were quite as naive as Tedder thought - although we Americans are shockingly naive, particularly in comparison to the seemingly suspicious-cunning-by-nature Russians. No, I think the Americans, and Eisenhower in particular, were quite aware of just how close some of their own people were to the upper echelons in the Reich _cough Dulles Brothers cough_ and did not relish the notion of a hostile Red Army right across the Elbe, who might very well simply see the Western allies as a continuation of what Fascism had started. The American tendency to overstate their own force protection is another factor - why waste boys from Iowa when boys from Smolensk were perfectly willing to chuck their bodies at the Seelow Heights? And, finally, yes, naivete. There was a lot of that too.
It is bloody gratifying to get to the point of the war where the sacrifices meant something, heartbreaking as they still are. Thank you Lord HardThrasher, for telling their story and making it a raucous good time at the expense of the idiots who almost ruined it and the Nazi pricks.
Love the shout out to Greg! While I share his love for the P-47, I do agree that the P-51 was the better fighter by most metrics.
Sorry, but 8 .50 caliber guns are better than 6!
I'm kidding, of course. They were both excellent fighters, and I think Greg's point is that the P-47 just doesn't get the love it deserves compared to the P-51.
Yes, that was always the point as I understood it as well. I’m certain that the P-47 could have done the job in the end, if the p-51 didn’t work out. However, the P-51 did work out, and boy was it a great plane.
I remember an old pilot saying "the Mustang got you girls the Thunderbolt got you home".
And the F4U was better than both 😊
@@falcon642 Yes but the AAC couldn't fly a plane designed for the Navy now, could it? - Very few planes were shared between the services.
Outstanding stuff, Lord Hardthrasher.
Despite its many mis-steps, the singular achievement of the 8th USAAF during the early months of 1944 was the destruction of the Luftwaffe. This was something that RAF Bomber Command simply could not ever have accomplished. No matter how accurately or in what great numbers of bomber sorties or bomb tonnage dropped. There simply weren't that many Luftwaffe night fighters. And the kill ratio of night fighters to bombers was always going to be negative.
Your analogy of the tethered goat is, despite its negative connotations, accurate. Daylight raids were going to bring up Luftwaffe fighters. Where they could be shot down by long-range Allied fighters. There would be losses on both sides, but the Americans could afford them, the Luftwaffe could not.
By dint of blood, treasure, skill and sacrifice the 8th USAAF defeated the Luftwaffe between January and March 1944. Without that victory, Overlord could not have happened. Neither could the Normandy breakout. Nor Falaise, Market Garden, or the breaching of the Rhine itself.
Thats not to take anything away from Bomber Command, or the Oil Plan, the Transportation Plan, or even the firebombing of Hamburg and Dresden. Those massed area bombing campaigns had their effect. Indeed, Carl LeMay basically cribbed the who concept and amped it up to 11 once he got command of the B-29s attacking Japan. But that's another story.
The Who concept. 🙂
@@fredericksaxton3991 yes the Who Concept arose from LeMay becoming something of a fixture at the very earliest Who concerts.
Keith Moon's antics, destroying everything he could get his hands on while drugged to the eyeballs, were particularly inspirational. According to Le May's autobiography, 'Fly Me to the Moon'.
@@Mike7O7O 😅 👏🏻 👏🏻
@vrdrew68 Carl LeMay? Think it's Curtis friend.
@😂😂😂😂🇬🇧🥁Mike7O7O
You know this series by our resident CZcams Historiographer/Commentator/Military Proctologist/Member of the Landed Aristocracy with Signature Look of Superiority is equally responsible for keeping me sane while mindlessly working and responding to emails while also spending inordinate amounts of my time while listening to him pontificate about air bombing in WW2 since I always go back and start the whole thing over again when each new episode comes out. 10/10, would imperil my marriage and job by paying more attention to a British man’s dulcet harangue again every time.
So glad to see you're growing at such a rapid pace! I am a huge fan - been binging your other videos since my last comment and was excited to get home from work and watch this one. The way you focus on the people, their decisions and their rationale I find immensely interesting. So often people will simply list events or spout statistics (myself included) and, while informative, it can be quite dull. Really excited to see you catch up and pass my subscriber count within months... hopefully we can collaborate before you become too handsome and too popular!
I would be delighted to see if we can find a way to collaborate...drop me an email?
I think your mother have raised a good boy ❤
And your mental state is great 🎉
Thanks for this great series of videos.
A small bit of a correction here, but it was actually the P-51B Mustangs that first became operational and provided fighter escort. The D model Mustangs wouldn't begin to operate over Europe until about June 1944. By that time the Luftwaffe was a bit degraded as a fighting force. However, that does not distract from the overall narrative and the point that is being made in this video. Greg's Planes and Automobiles makes the point that if they had enough external fuel tanks in 1943, the P-47 Thunderbolts could have reached farther into western parts of Germany from bases in England. However, with external fuel tanks the P-51 Mustangs could reach western Poland! The Mustang's gas milage was impressive, and that was only one of its many advantages. I would recommend both Greg's and HardThrasher's channels to anyone. They both contain a lot of interesting information.
I am prepared to be proved wrong on this, but I'm 78% sure (in a world 87% of statistics are made up) that they were Ds - I'll go and check again
Hmmm ok, so my sources are irritatingly ambiguous, which suggests my dyslexic little mind could easily have conflated B for D and I shall stand corrected
One minor little mistake with a couple of letters of the alphabet in a video that was very good!
That Greg video is rather misleading as it contains several factually wrong informations and he seemengly deletes everyone who tries to point that out or simply ignores anything that would put that work in question, or so i've found doing some digging around.
It is incorrect enough to have attracted attention even on r/badhistory.
In any case he points out to misterious large 200 gal droptanks with little to no evidence as if was properly tested or could be used operationally under the required conditions. Makes confusion between ferry tanks and actual drop tanks. Ferry tanks might not be designed to work in all the condition a combat drop tank is and in fact might not even be droppable but most concerning the altitude at wich they can work. Pressurization was a key issue and the P-47 had to be adapted and modernized for it.
If one goes for the argument: They could have done it sooner one can say: Yes and probably they would not have had the same line of tought of the early 1943 USAAF.
Greg attempts to make it look like it was all a conspiracy and that the P-51 was favoured only to cover their backs rather than being ready, available and configured for long range escort duties with droptanks, being better suited due to better internal range than the Thunderbolt and that P-47 versions that could reliably escort bombers to their targets were not available drammatically sooner and not for the Schweinfurt Raid.
This does not mean that Greg is bad but that specific video gave me bad vibes the first time i saw it and i wasn't the only one.
@@HardThrasherI believe they were B/C variants in late 43 but significant numbers of Ds were available by Spring 44, not sure of specific dates
As a slightly more serious aside, I think the P51 Mustang is an excellent example of one of the reason why the Allies prevailed - that is, they co-operated fairly effectively. Not only strategically, but in terms of weapons development and technological transfers. American plane made for the Brits, the fitted with British engine (albeit made by HP in the US under licence). Similar story with proximity fuses and the cavity magnetron radar. Nothing like that evident on the Axis side.
It’s Nanny’s night off, and Pater is off out to the Hellfire Club (only seems to go on the nights that Nanny is off). Mater will, no doubt, have one of her ‘headaches’. Which leaves me and Merican Minor to indulge in our passion - history. Not sure we agree with @youdouche6805 - we’re finding that having the facts enables us to see where Apple are playing to the home crowd - Norden, RAF/USAAF friction, RAF ineptitude, Norden, only the US doing any fighting , Norden . . .
Great work Lord HardThrasher. At the risk of, well I absolutely am, repeating myself, I've read Harris's book and he fairly honestly covered how he'd resisted having Bomber Command assigned to bombing tactical targets in France to support the coming invasion. From memory he didn't want his force turned aside from bombing Germany as he wanted to keep the pressure up and was still convinced that the way to beat them was trashing their territory until they couldn't prosecute the war any further. He then went on to say that his aircraft and men proved very effective in that tactical role and did a bang up job. So he was honest....ish I guess.
The elite pilots of the channel front fighter squadrons were destroyed by P47s in December 43. The P51s that showed up in early 44 were of course P51B and Cs. Great video.
Bloody good show Thrasher!
I know a lot of this already but you provide nuggets of illumination combined with a humorous and insightful delivery.
Damn good sir.
As you were.
Carry on.
Lord Hard Thrasher - please accept my compliments. Your take on the Tedder/Harris dynamic was a revelation to me. At this age of 72 I have absorbed a lot of twaddle concerning the bombing campaign against Germany by the RAF and the USAAF. This discourse of yours has simplified things for me at a time when simplification makes sense. I remain obsessed with the subject and all of my first-hand resources have already passed-on.
Nice to hear the shout outs to Gregs. I don't think his argument is that the P-47 is better than the P-51, his recent video on Human Factors shows how much better the cockpit layout was on the P-51, and the visibility in a P-51 compared to a Razorback P-47, there is no comparison really. My takeaway from Greg's videos is that the P-47 fought the Luftwaffe in its prime, because it was the best plane that the Army could deploy in numbers at the time. It could have done more in terms of escorting bombers if Army politics hadn't held it back, it had more than enough power up high to do it, and could carry enough fuel to do it with drop tanks. It set up the big win that the P-51 capitalised on and was then able to get all those lovely stats later in the war against less experienced pilots with less flying hours. I've truly been loving this series of yours and look forward to the next episode.
And that was the fifth I've watched tonight. Thank you, again. I look forward to the next installment... whenever it's ready.
As I'm in Australia, I'll just say "Good night and well done!"
You're telling me I gotta stay up until 5 for this one? Well ok, gonna have 2 biscuits when I finish tho.
Sir, I write in complaint of finger nail collectors of the world! Having been a keen collector for over 3 decades I can assure you it's a most relaxing and interesting hobby! Sir, an apologies required as your obviously a absolute shower! As for weather forecasting try seaweed and a pine cone, never fails.
Yours,
Lord Lucan
c/o Unit 5
The Rubber Room
The Stromberg Institute
Switzerland.
P.S I was the Captain of HMS Bismarck 😂😂😂
Great video as ever!
Doolittle, who had balls made from a material not yet known to man, returned from China thinking he would be court martialed since he effectively lost his entire command. Much to his surprise he got the MoH and was promoted two ranks at once. That man needs his own video hard AF.
So it will premiere at the time my next class starts.
Brilliant m'lord.
Simply brilliant.
Sir, Curious as to your appetite for public lectures, consider my ticket number 1. Another splendid video, a thank you.
Good Series. Been binging it and thoroughly ejoying it, especially the manner. Good show, Hardtrasher! A thought:
The P-51 came on the scene when the Jagdwaffe had already been gutted and reduced to a few experten and a large number of rather ropey pilots. That was the result of the P-47s (and to a lesser extent P-38) grinding away over 1943 and early 1944 as well as losses in North Africa and the Soviet Union. It was also due to the Luftwaffe's instructor pilot cadre getting torn apart in the Stalingrad and Tunisia airlifts. The LW used the Ju-52 transport as its primary training aircraft and they were thrown into those airlifts and chewed up (from Williamson Murray 'The Luftwaffe 1939-45: Strategy for Defeat). The LW's training program never recovered. The pilots for the P-51s had learned their trade flying the P-47, which quite reliably got them home and that too is a reason to not slight the Jug. None of that means the P-51 wasn't good, but that comparing its loss ratios to those of other fighters that had gone against the LW at its prime or at least closer to it is misleading.
The same kind of thing is true in the Pacific as well. The F6F Hellcat gets the glory and the gaudy kill ratios, far better than the F4F Wildcat's, but it was the Wildcat that was there to hold the line during the great carrier battles (Coral Sea, Midway, Santa Cruz Islands and Eastern Solomons) and then to win the Guadalcanal campaign with minor help from Bell Airacobras (and the SBDs operating against IJN forces from Henderson field to control the seas). The Wildcat was still the most important fighter for the Solomons campaign, though with increasing help from P-38s and F4U Corsairs as the campaign went on. By the time the Hellcat came on the scene the IJN's excellent pre-war pilot cadre was all but exterminated and much of the IJAs pilot cadre that had been thrown into the Rabaul meatgrinder and into the fighting at New Guinea with it. The Hellcat didn't see action until mid-'43 when the only question was just what would it cost to finish Japan off.
I hear you, but I disagree. The fighter component of the Luftwaffe was, until January 1944, always able to retreat into Germany, regroup and go again. The superior range of the P-51 (with no tanks greater than Jan 44 P-47s with tanks) meant they hadn't anywhere to hide. Luftwaffe loss rates sky rocketed from Jan 44, leading to the Nazis forming their Fighter Staff to finally switch production from bombers to fighters and hence the massive spike in German fighter production in 1944 (at the cost of almost everything else)
The P-47 was very good, it definitely made a huge difference to bomber survivability inside its cover area but the stats don't lie - P-51s in Jan and Feb 44 shot down 3x more per sortie.
@@HardThrasher My thinking is kind of like your thinking on whether the US won the First World War ("win the war they certainly didn't"). It's not slighting the value of the P-51's range, but putting it into its proper historical context/ BTW, I didn't go hunting for material, but today I binged the China series (which made a lot of sense in light of things going on visibly rather than the old 'Kremlin watching').and was struck by the US WW1 comment when I did.
25:41: "Dwayne Dibbley?"
Great work as usual, your Lordship.
This series about the tragedy of the British and American bomber groups was well done, Lord Shaftesbury, lol.
Lord Hardthrasher talked about the increasing accuracy and potency of RAF Bomber Command by February 1944, although things did go a bit pear-shaped on the night of 30/31 March 1944 on the Nüremberg raid. One man, imho, who deserves great credit for this was AVM Donald Bennett, AOC-in-C No. 8 Group, the Pathfinders. Originally trained as a fighter pilot, he became an airline pilot with Imperial Airways, developed the composite aircraft for long-range mail flights, earned a navigator's certificate and wrote a weighty tome on air navigation. In the early part of the war he helped develop the ferry flight routes from N America to GB, became a bomber squadron commander on Halifaxes before being ordered to set up the Pathfinders, much against Harris' wishes. In short the outstanding RAF bomber commander of the war.
I’m so glad I found your channel and have enjoyed watching and Learning more about interesting parts of history, I knew nothing of before
Wake up babe, new Hardthrasher vid dropped
Thank you for almost making me spill my tea with the "collection of fingernails". You have a way with words, sir.
And it's worth remembering that the Mustang wasn't designed for the US initially. The British committee that came over the US to buy hardware had initially asked North American to license-build P-40s. North American said they could more quickly design their own fighter that could be built on their production lines than convert them to build someone else's aircraft.
It wasn't until the RAF started receiving Mustangs, and then equipping them with RR Merlins, that everyone realized that it was a really good aircraft.
I should warn you, Lord Thrasher, that the following review of your video does contain a swear word.
That was f*cking brilliant.
Quite the most informative video on this topic I've seen. Understanding the personalities, planning and politics puts the whole air war of that period in a different light.
I'd love to see you do an episode on the battle of Malta and Keith Parks roll in it.
FOR THE ALGORITHM!!!! This is such a great series. Thank you for all your work.
Thank you for watching!
@@HardThrasher anytime. Wish you all the best.
i enjoyed this video, nice acknowledgment to Greg on the P-47 series, a collab with him would be most appreciated!!!
Without a doubt one of the best historians on CZcams. An insightful and entertaining synthesis of the air war in Western Europe. Given the scope of the daylight B-17 and B-24 aircrew losses it makes you wonder what would have happened if they had substituted for the de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito.
Have to say, while it is with the benefit of hindsight, it's truly staggering seeing how much Doolittle turned 8th Airforce's fortunes around in so little time by focusing on what his job was instead of Harris and co's near outright insubordination via their near-religious they knew better than the overall commanders about how to defeat Germany by themselves... If only Doolittle, or someone else sane, had been in charge from the get go 8th Airforce probably wouldn't have nearly bled out 3 times previously...
Excellent once again Thrashy, I have a small but perfectly formed collection of WD Jerry cans, one 1944, which has a stamped metal label 'ac 100' - obviously denotes 100 octane aircraft fuel, hurrah and thanks to Mr Doolittle, however it is now still serviceable and provides red diesel for my 1941 kelvin j4 for the narrowboat on which I reside... keep up the good work, and a doff of my somewhat oily cap from the Oxford canal !
28:17 - The typical ratio of overclaiming is more like 3:1, so that's quite professional.
(It's not that fighter pilots are all glory hounds, though they are, but it's really hard to tell if a plane was shot down unless you track it all the way to the ground)
I spent my life (My father was in the USAF Bomber forces) listening to Airmen's stories in complete awe. Still looking at the loses gave a person pause. I nice to know there was a method to the madness and the went just cocking thing up. Very Much Thanks!
Another good video, well done. Obviously it wasn't pure chance, but the world rarely recognises just how lucky we were to have Tedder and Eisenhower in the same place at the same time; two outstanding leaders. Cometh the hour cometh the man - not always, we were very, very lucky.
In fact the video of the first B-25 taking off was Doolittle himself. First off the Hornet. Talk about balls. Also a pretty good motivator for the other 15 bombers.
He's talking about Greg with the P-47 isn't he? Damn I adore Greg's work on yt
17:11 I'm so glad Greg has become a well known figure in the ww2 aviation community. Regardless of his opinions, his technical breakdowns are top fuckin notch
Watched the whole series 3 more times or more now. Excellent work M' Lud.
I had to drive through a ditch once to get to a job interview in my wheelchair. Your book might have been helpful for me to avoid having to do that. Will it help me avoid the ditches all together or just help me avoid dying in them? The making War part would be secondary until California falls into the sea and we need to invade and integrate a part of Canada to maintain 50 states. I'm taking suggestions on which part we should invade first.
Ontario!
Invading Canada has gone badly for the US, historically speaking.
@@nerd1000ify Third time's the charm!
Constantly brilliant! I have never heard the allied bombing offensive so comprehensively covered in such an eye-opening and brutally honest fashion before. Warts-and-all, success and failures and such a good window into the personalities involved, I would love to read a more in depth coverage of this entire series in a good book - do you write? Your style and insight have been much appreciated by me, I have dropped comments over the last week where I have been following this series, it has had me completely hooked. I think this would translate well into a book format but I would miss your engaging voice, you are gifted sir (and not so many naughty words as we have gone on either, well done!). Look forward to further content.
I know we're on episode 5, but "devastating butt report" still got me a little
I really love your channel. I've learned a lot, and have had several of my misconceptions dispelled - I genuinely thank you for that. This might be the only opportunity I have to pay you back in kind:
- The Rumble in the Jungle was the first time Ali had ever faced Foreman, so the latter wasn't regarded as his "old nemesis."
- Joe Frazier (an actual nemesis of Ali - having beaten him by UD in what was dubbed "The Fight of the Century," before losing the rematch) *had* fought Foreman in '73, losing by shocking TKO inside two rounds.
- Ali was certainly past his prime when he fought Foreman, but I've never heard/read about him characterizing The Rumble as "one last championship fight." Ali fought into the early 80s, having numerous historic performances after he left Zaire.
- One of those performances was about a year later during his third fight with Frazier - the famous "Thrilla in Manilla. Ali described the experience as "the closest I've ever been to dying." I do believe this fight had a lasting impact on his health.
- A tragic shell of his former self, Ali had his actual "last championship fight" against his old sparring partner, Larry Holmes, before losing to Trevor Berbick and finally retiring. Both of these fights were ghastly beatings that lasted a combined 25 rounds because nobody stepped in to stop either fight, and Ali couldn't be knocked out by the 8th Air Force, never mind an ordinary man. It's a real tragedy that Ali fought as long as he did, but what a mark "The Greatest" left on the 20th century.
Yeah, I made a boo-boo, think I stuck it in a pinned comment but will check.
I so much do look forward to each of Lord Hardthrasher's magnificent video posts.
Excellent work !
Do carry on...
Cracking vid "telling it like it was" regarding strategy and tactics. Also, a really interesting summary of the politics in the top ranks of the RAF and USAAF. Thank you.
"Speak the speech, I pray you, trippingly on the tongue; etc. The voice is nectar to the ear and the content an ambrosia presenting and explaining particular events of military history that gives a reality to the "stuff" that us drudges, the history students, had to learn by heart; as a series of disconnected boring facts! Presenting the human foibles of the leaders makes it all come alive and make sense of the course and the inevitable outcome.
History as it should be taught. Thank you. Congratulations.
Ah, leaving The Carnage of Overlord, for the (at least) USAAF, for later?
However, they did free us from McNair!
[BTW, will there be a 'medium bomber' war series? The only one I've seen is Catch 22.]
That would be good, on my wishlist with a Siege of Malta episode / series
Simply brilliant, possibly the best account of this period that I have come across on YT. I also learnt something new, re the role of the RAF listening service assisting 8th Fighter Command. The statistics are very sobering in terms of death and destruction on both sides. I too am something of a Doolittle "fanboy" and likewise with Tedder and Conningham. How Leigh-Mallory got on Eisenhower's staff is another matter and my opinion of Oliver Echols, the man who did his best at Materiel Command to kill off the P-51 is something I will draw a discrete veil over. Thank goodness for the P-51 B/C and the remarkable resin impregnated paper drop tanks that Arnold had the nerve to criticise Freeman for slow production of. Curiously Materiel Command drew no criticism for failing to come up with anything as remotely original.
So I had known for a long time that the arrival of the P-51D marked the turning point in the air war in Europe, and i knew that the P-51s were primarily responsible for shattering the Luftwaffe as an effective fighting force. What I didn't know was that US commanders had literally decided to use the bombers as bait. I had been under the impression that the escorting fighters destroyed the attacking Luftwaffe fighters as part of protecting the bombers. I also hadn't really internalized how fast it happened. In just 5 months, the Luftwaffe was shattered, after several years of ineffectual results. That's just crazy to me. Thanks for the video, interesting information as always.
You are stark raving mad and your mother is a gooseberry bush!!
That said - loving and binge watching.
Those figures for aircraft in the air on the 6th March are eye-popping. I condider myself a bit of a WW2 plane buff, but this is the first time I've heard of this battle. Thank you M'Lord for such a well researched and informative video
This series has been an absolute banger...
I'll admit I'm the person whose eyes glaze over when engine types get mentioned but the overall description as to how this played out is rather good
When I was a kid I read and re-read Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo a million times.
I admit that I've never read it!
Lovely Space Corp Directive reference in there
All in all, a lovely afternoon in Lord HT's smoking room...alas, I have nothing to smoke
i heard that when a reporter asked Doolittle if the luftwaffe was greatest airforce in the world he said "shit they arent even the greatest airforce over berlin right now"
I’ll have a meeting for work at the time of premier. Knowing this is live will make it hard to pay attention.
The Spitfire and the P51 were both beautiful, like a falcon and a shark.
For any viewer curious about who the "well regarded CZcamsr who's done 9 hours on the P-47" that HardThrasher refers to at the 17:20 mark, HardThrasher is referring to the Greg's Airplanes & Automobiles channel. And, for what it's worth, I don't think it's accurate to suggest that there's disagreement between Greg and HardThrasher on whether the P-47 or the P-51 was a "better" fighter escort (and I suspect Greg would find the idea rather besides the point--which is better, an apple or an orange?). Greg argues the P-47 is woefully underappreciated today (and, hence, why he made his 8 videos). Greg's argument is basically the following: (A) the P-47 was the best all-around fighter-bomber of WWII (i.e., if a nation could only have 1 platform from among any of the various combatants, its best bet would be to go with the P-47); (B) the P-47 did more to defeat the Luftwaffe than the P-51 because the P-47 was the dominant USAAF fighter in 1943-1944 and thus began the Luftwaffe's death spiral (which the P-51 gets too much glory for in 1944-45); and (C) the USAAF's 'bomber mafia' (starting with Hap Arnold at the top) knowingly refused to provide drop tanks for the P-47 in 1943, which the USAAF easily could have done if it had wanted to, thereby limiting their range and precluding the possibility for P-47 fighter escorts on bombing raids into Germany in 1943 (most famously at Schweinfurt) out of an adherence to provably false pre-war USAAF doctrine that heavy bombers did not require fighter escort on precision daylight bombing raids. Greg argues that the notion it wasn't possible for the USAAF to provide fighter escorts on bombing runs into Germany until the Merlin-equipped P-51 came along in early 1944 is a myth purposefully created by the 'bomber mafia' to hide the fact that they needlessly (and stupidly) got a lot of 8th Air Force crewmen killed in 1942/1943 by refusing to allocate resources to long range fighter escort.
I've popped a link in the description for those who wanted to see Greg's videos.
Bloody brilliant, i hope one day your channel and videos get the recognition you deserve. Your style of writing and speaking makes it VERY easy to listen for hours.
Ahh,Here comes the Main Event!
The Doolittle Raid is the USAAF version of "hold my beer."
your pronunciation of "Schweinfurt" is realy good
F***ing masterly discourse,as ever,your Lordship... bravo 👏👏👏😅!
I started this series yesterday and was sad to realize I'd have to wait a while for the next episode, impeccable timing
Brilliant, entertaining and hilarious. This should be required viewing in public schools.
Let's not forget that General Doolittle won the Thompson and Bendix air races. I believe he's the only one that took the Triple Crown of air racing. He was always modest and self deprecating. I'm definitely a "fanboy" myself, truly an impressive Man.
I loved your ‘froffing’ over James Doolittle. As a fellow Brit I agree with every word. He was a remarkable man.
17:12 Always surprised how the 56th Fighter Group managed to avoid being converted to the Mustang. They REALLY loved their thunderbolts.
Zemski was a flipping genius flyer. (Spelling will be wrong sry)
@HardThrasher Yeah Zemke was arguably the best fighter group commanders in the USAAF
You know, my interest in aviation has taken a hard dive in recent years into the realms of disinterest to outright distain for all flying things (beyond missiles). However, your content and the way to go about presenting it has utterly captured my attention.
Excellent! I’ve been able to watch another of Lord Hardthrasher’s excellent (and highly nutritious) videos. Matron will be furious.
Superb video sir! Please do feel free to pour yourself another Rolls-Royce.
One of the gentlemen over on the WW 2 podcast insists the air offensive in 44 was focused on industry, the subsequent reduction of the Luftwaffe was a by product. The WW 2 podcast is excellent. However I suspect destroying the Luftwaffe was a priority alongside the destruction of industry.
Most fun military channel around…just more, more often…
Wonderfully lucid...kudos on the Doolittle-fanboydom. And the Y service !
16:50 - minor quibble. The P-51D only started arriving in late 1944. The Mustang force in early 1944 was made up of B and C models with the turtledeck rear fuselage and four machine guns. These were actually faster than the D, and apparently on VE Day half of the Mustangs in theater were still Bs and Cs.
Yes, see pinned comment
This video has pleased me and I would like to say thank you.
brew made :) this on for the hour, couldent get a better wednesday
Excellent as usual
You are not insane and your mother is a wonderful person. Thank you for a great and well presented narrative
Found this channel last week and watched a shit ton off it very interesting and funny cheers for the great Content.
Just to clarify Greg's position (i confess i am a huge fanboy of his) on the p47 vs p51- i dont think you will find disagreement with regarding which was the better escort fighter. In fact, if pressed, he might say, as i would, that the p51 was probably the best fighter of the war (i say this reluctantly, as i love the Spitfire). Only that the p47 made perhaps a more important, or at least somewhat overlooked, contribution since it was effective and available in numbers at a time when the p51 was not. Also that the p47 could have won even more glory if it was used with the droptanks that were also available. That it wasnt was also due to Bomber Mafia misjudgement.
Thank you for another entertaining, informative and engaging video. Not only is that sentiment true but I'm told that those are words the algoritthm particularly likes to see.