The Forgotten Riders Overlooked By Modern Geometry
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 03. 2024
- Are you on the shorter end of bike sizing charts? Too tall for the XXL? Christina explores the challenges faced by both extremes when it comes to getting the correct bike size and spec for you.
Supported by 👉 Trailforks Pro: b.link/v63weq
Get unlimited access to all the best mountain biking trails by clicking the link above.
More Pinkbike videos:
How Does THIS Enhance The Traditional MTB Experience?
• Lightweight E-Bike VS ...
Belt Drives, Gear Boxes, And High-pivots: 5 Custom Race Machines From Crankworx Rotorua
• 5 Custom Race Bikes Bu...
These 4 Custom Race Bikes Make Up The Ultimate MTB Quiver | 2024 Crankworx Rotorua
• MTB Quiver: 4 Bikes To...
Pinkbike Merch - pinkbike.link/merch
Subscribe for more content from the pulse of mountain biking.
Website - pinkbike.com
Podcast - pinkbike.link/pbpodcast
Instagram - / pinkbike
Facebook - / pinkbikecom - Sport
![The 5 Unexpected MTB Techniques To Rocket Through Rock Gardens CRITICAL [4K]](/img/n.gif)
My wife is 5ft1in and bike fit becomes very complicated when you are at the bottom end of sizing. The amount of people who say stand over doesn’t matter is wild. I couldn’t imagine not being able to stand over my bike with both feet on the ground, meanwhile she’s racing DH and can’t put a foot down, and the seat hits her but in steep techy sections.
My wide doesn't even break 5 foot, sitting at 4'11". She also has shorter legs and a longer torso. Bike shopping is always a nightmare, especially as all the bikes she demos come with 780-800mm bars, so she can't tell what the bike feels like at all untill we buy the bike and cut the bars down. I would like to meet the person who rides an XS bike and needs 800mm bars.
@@TheWrigle 100%
For sure. Standover only doesn’t matter if you have plenty of it. Sort of like money😂
@@TheWrigle You've probably tried this, but what about taking an extra bar to the bike demo to try the bike out? This could help if it's allowed by the brand doing the demos.
@@tjb8841 Very true.
THANK YOU 🎉 I’m 5’1 and finding bikes that I can actually standover are few and far between. And if I had a dollar for every 6’ tall man that tells me standover height doesn’t matter, I’d have enough to design my own custom frame
Right? Or all of the 6’ test riders that talk about how great 29” wheels on the back of small frames are. I’d love to put some 36” wheels on their bikes and see how it feels for them. The proportions would probably be the same. 😂
There are some great kids bikes available nowadays 😏
Liv bikes is the answer
I love my Liv Intrigue and Liv does have mullet options in their longer travel bikes but their Piques are all full 29er, and while the Embolden does come in full 27.5” for small and XS frames, the bike itself and the components are too entry level with no higher end builds available. 🤷🏻♀️
There are and that could be a great option for short, light riders, short doesn’t always mean light and the components on kids bikes don’t tend to be as high end as on adult bikes.
Chainstay length is so important, but was barely mentioned. Size small bikes all have chainstays that are longer than reach, which gives them a different balance, in a bad way, than the larger sizes that have longer reach than chainstays. More bikes companies should be offering size specific chainstays. And with reach numbers >425, it is now possible to have small frames with shorter chainstays than reach and have a more similar balance as the other sizes. As it is now, short riders are too far away from the rear axle and must over exaggerate body position and movements to weight rear or lift the front when needed. The only real benefit about modern geometry for short riders is the slacker head angles.
Thanks for that input! I think it's helpful for folks to hear that for sure. Unfortunately, we had to chop some of the interviews with JM and Ben but ironically, they both mentioned chainstay lengths and JM even said she often finds she ends up liking bikes with a similar length in chainstay and reach. I personally hadn't put too much thought into it as other features were more important to me but in the future I will pay a LOT more attention to chainstay length for sure and see how that affects my comfort and riding experience.
True at both ends of the spectrum. Some XL/XXL bikes have ludicrously short chainstays. Either way, when a brand specs the same chainstay length across the size range, as most do, someone's going to end up with compromised handling.
agree, its really hard to manual your bike with those long chainstays, my arms are too short to get in a balanced position lol
@@hillsidewoods also harder to manual a bike with longer reach, or lower bars
@@ollialanko699 true.
As a short king this was awesome to watch. The dropper post not fitting is the worst!
I sooo, feel this! I am a 5'4" rider and I am currently riding a M Trek Remedy 9.8, 27.5 wheel. I am a bike instructor and when I teach women's classes, I always walk them through the options to make their bikes fit better. It really bugs me that LBS don't do proper cockpit setups with buyers. It would be such an easy win for a repeat customer. I find I am always swapping out parts on my bikes just to make them fit. I am long in the torso but shorter legs and find I fit best between a small and m frame, and usually size up to the M generally. However, that often means my standover height is tiptoed but its the trade I am willing to make to get a suitable reach and more roomy cockpit that fits me and gives me better balance on climbs and descents. I immediately switch out the stock dropper post for a much shorter one, and add a shorter and wider saddle than stock. As well, I put on a shorter stem, and I cut the bars down to 740mm. I always swap the break lever position with the the dropper lever and shifters because my hands are small with a short thumb reach and I don't want to have to move my hands to change gears. I also ensure I buy brakes that are fully adjustable and powerful so I can bring the levers closer and make them nice and soft to pull but still have great stopping power, to avoid hand fatigue, which otherwise comes much faster for me than for the guys I ride with, especially after a day of teaching in the bike park. Additionally, I put on pedals with pins around the axle because I have very small feet and most pedal platforms are too big and wide and my foot slips around. I have had small frames too, and am currently riding a RM Altitude PP, in a small. I added a double water bottle cage so I could fit a full size bottle with the option to add a second. Also had to swap out a shorter dropper post because for some reason, it came with one not appropriately sized for the bike, and when I tried to push the dropper post housing all the way down in the seat tube, it kinked the cable at the attachment point and prevented it from working properly. On my last DH bike, a small Specialized Demo 8, I changed out fork springs, and rear coil, for softer ones. The bike fit a bit too small but the medium needed way too many mods, and ultimately just too heavy, to make it a worthy purchase. Thanks for calling this out!
Thanks so much for that response! I think a lot of riders, and your clients, will greatly appreciate this input!
I'm about the same size as you and my M Fuel Ex gen 6 feels a little bit too big. I tried the small one at the shop and the bars were hitting my stomach on tighter turns. Being right on the middle off the chart makes it hard to get the proper size.
Yes, excellent point about the brake levers. I have mine adjusted for a less fatiguing reach as well. A lot of new riders have no idea about proper bike fit and it really is a shame.
Have the same Remedy and it's perfect for me at 5'3" running completely stock. Check out Knolly they make bikes specifically for short people
@@elliotgaulin5217 I'm same size too. I went for the size S Fuel Ex Gen 6. I couldn't find any in shop and bought online. I was concerned I bought too small but now think its the best compromise I could get. My inseam length was at the top end of the Trek chart. I have long legs to body ratio. I notice my dropper/seat post is above the limit line! What makes your bike feel too big? Just curious what is your inseam? I'm 78mm/31 inches
Good discussion, at 6'6" first thing i usually do is add fork spacers, longer/angled stems, riser bars. i like to look at reach when shopping but stack is also important, the higher the better. GREAT TOPIC
Sounds like and Ben have a lot in common there! Thanks for the input. Hopefully some other taller riders can benefit from your suggestions.
What stack does your frame have? I’m 6’5”, my bike has 645mm stack, and I have my stem slammed, with 35mm rise bars. I prefer to have more reach rather than more stack
@@Montezuma0 2013 tallboy LT in XXL. 40 mm riser bar. 2022 stumpy evo S6. Stock bar. 2017 chromag rootdown xl w a 160 fork 27.5 3.0 tires. Hated it til i added a specialized adjustable 100 mm stem and a 60 mm riser bar. In the end its a lot of trial and error. I have a long torso and hate feeling out over the front wheel. Thank God for the move to 29er. I looked like a circus bear on my 2005 SC Heckler(even tho it was a great bike.)
I'm just about Ben's height, XXL sized trek, seems fine to me. Probably could use some volume spacers for the fork tho, that is true.
6'5" here and with long legs - Look up stack on Raaw Madonna etc. proper.
Thank you for coming up with this topic Pinkbike. Me as a 5,3 (163cm) rider, i am wondering if bike companies think all smaller people died during Covid, as some are not even offering S sized frames anymore and starting their line up with size M like Deviate with the Claymore MX shortest reach of 460mm. WTF!?
I have really noticed it is difficult to find small frames in LBS too.
Even used on cl and Facebook it's difficult to find smaller frames
@@halokiller711 and here I am struggling to sell a juliana Roubion size small 🤣
I been in business for over 20 years and it seems like is always being that way.
Crank length has been such a hot topic recently. I was surprised there is no mention of that in this video.
I didn’t know crank length adjusted your geometry 😂
@@adrianwilkinson2547 shorter cranks raise the saddle, through seattube angle it increases reach as well. Although it matters more on roadbikes, not MTB
Similarly, in attack position longer cranks virtually shorten chainstays
I agree. As a person with only 29" inseam, shorter cranks keep my hips more open. It's weird how 175mm was the standard so long, whether you're legs are short like mine or have a 36" inseam.
Went down to 160 and 32 tooth chainring. Smoother cadence less peddle strikes. One size doesn’t fit everybody. 😊
With a 36” inseam at 6’1” legs want me on an xl but reach of 500 plus feels too long. When I get a bike in the 480 reach area the seat gets very high in relation to bars. Have to try to get them higher. Have to run 175 cranks too.
I agree. I consider myself a fairly experienced and advanced rider and at 5’2” with my shoes on, I feel we have really been left behind over the last few years with the popularity of 29” wheels. I absolutely agree with how the 29” wheel up front is hugely beneficial, but I haven’t found a single small frame with a 29” wheel in the back that I think works. Having big wheels both front and back feels like it squishes the frame upward making the centre of gravity higher and the bike not as stable. And when I scrub my butt on the back wheel when I am just sitting on the seat to lower it before a descent, I think that is a real problem and proof that the geometry just doesn’t work. There are tons of options for mullet longer travel bikes, but I would really love a “down country” bike with a smaller wheel on the back and they just don’t exist. I’ve emailed all of the companies to see if it’s possible to mullet one, but they have all responded with a “no”. So disappointing.
What about the Santa Cruz 5010? It may be a 130mm bike
Thank you for addressing this "REAL" issue us shorter riders have. At 5'6" I find the new size for me is "S" vs years of the past of "M". Santa Cruz Megatower size "S" 430 reach with wheelbase at 1206 is about spot on for my enduro fun.
Thank you for making this video. I am sending this to several bike manufacturers out of frustration with them. I'm starting with the women specific companies that don't provide many options for shorter women.
Send it to Ibis! Their lead designer is a short woman, and yet...take a look at their geo.
Thanks, great video, I am 5 foot 3 and the country I live in, many bike shops don't stock small sizes, which makes test riding challenging.
As a 6'6" rider, the bikes these days are SO much better for tall people. I do still end up replacing at minimum the handlebars, dropper post and brake rotors on every bike I buy - but even having the option for a proper XXL bike feels like a luxury. I try to stay away from using spacers under the stem because that robs you of the reach that is finally getting to be long enough! I also like to have bikes with longer chainstays and steeper seat tubes. A short chainstay and a slack seat tube makes it a struggle to keep the front wheel down on steep climbs when you've got a telephone pole length seat post.
what bike are you using? I'm a bit shorter at 6'5ish and am yet to find one which fits properly
@@danbradley1537 I'm currently riding an XXL Transition Spire. XXL Santa Cruz bikes are a good option too if you prefer a bit less reach & a bit more stack.
Bro, look at the reach and stack numbers on the xxl Raaw Madonna!!!
These bike setup videos have been so valuable. As a 6ft4 rider, changing the stock 15mm rise bar to a higher 38mm rise handlebar made a huge noticeable difference to maneuverability and confidence especially downhill.
Thank you for this video. It’s very comforting to know I‘m not the only one with this challenges. I really do like a complete 27.5“ wheel setup, good standover height in case of emergency and a lightweight bike.
Especially modern trail EMTB seem to be made for bigger and heavier riders.
Thanks for a great episode Christina! Keep the fantastic content coming!
Thank you for speaking for us shorties. I'm 5'3" and hopefully the bike industry takes this to heart.
I do think both Cristina and Jessy May are skipping a big reason why (some) long travel bikes come with a 27.5 front wheel in the smallest sizes.
it’s simply total height. Not that smaller riders need smaller wheels for some reason.
There is a minimum for head tube height, so once a frame is down to that, the only way to go lower on stack is either shorter travel or a smaller wheel.
So if you are a short rider, you can choose to give up one of the following:
“Normal” , lowish stack
29” wheel
Long travel.
One of them has to go.
My experience echoes Ben's. At 6'5" I typically have to:
1. Run a higher rise bar. I can run more spacers but a higher rise bar will maintain a long reach.
2. Install a longer dropper post so I can get decent insertion into the frame and a good amount of drop.
3. Install thicker grips for my bigger hands.
4. Install larger brake rotors, the largest I can fit.
5. Install metallized brake pads for more braking power.
6. Sometimes I have to upgrade wheels because I will break freehubs due to my weight.
One of my old riding buddies would give me a hard time for this, saying "bikes should be ready to go right out of the box". He just doesn't understand tall guy life.
It's funny how 26"/24" was completely ridable back in the day, but a 27.5"/26" mullet isn't a option for riders less than 5' tall. Confidence comes from being able to put both feet completely flat on the ground when you need to or when are just coming to a stop. Taller riders that have never had to deal with this issue really don't understand. Bike shop employees are the worst for this saying 'just lean your bike a little and put your foot down' if the bike is to tall. I understand the benefits of a 29" wheel on the front, but good luck finding a full suspension bike that a
I’m 5’1 and the new liv intrigue LT in an XS has a standover of only 613. It’s the best option I’ve found (if you want something with more travel)
@@brittlikesbikes2084 The last bike I built up was a Liv Intrigue X E+ 1 in XS. The first thing I had to change was the fork. Even though the bike came with dual 27.5" tires, the fork was for a 29" tire and has a tall A2C height. Liv didn't bother changing the fork for the XS size and used the same 29" fork found on their larger sizes. The fork was changed to one with 37mm offset(vs 44mm) and 160mm travel which comes in shorter than the 150mm 29" fork that came with the bike. This was the first step in lowering stand over. Next was replacing the rear wheel with a 26" wheel and putting the flip chip in the high position which kept the head angle at 64.5°. The cranks were decreased from 160mm to 145mm which increased bottom bracket clearance and are much better suited for shorter legs. The saddle was replaced with a low profile saddle and the dropper with one that could be fully inserted. The 5' rider can now put her feet almost flat on the ground. Reducing the fork to 150mm or going with dual 26" wheels would even further reduce stand over clearance, but they are happy with the way it is now and much more happy with the way it rides as a mullet.
@@sjaan7370if you have more short riders looking for an enduro style bike, I can assure you the intrigue LT advanced is shorty friendly. The standover alone is over 100mm shorter than the bike you’re referring to. I am 5’1 and the small fit me - the XS was too small (which is a FIRST)
@@brittlikesbikes2084 Being from a group of older riders in BC emtbs make sense for us and unfortunately it's even harder to find geo on an emtb that works for riders under 5'. Thanks for the info though 😎 I find that's there much more to chose from when it comes to the non emtb world, but I'll definitely recommend the Intrigue LT Advanced in the future to vertically challenged riders searching for a non emtb 🙂 Cheers
@sjaan7370 have you tried the Specialized Levo in S1? I'm 4'11" (short torso, longer legs) and been riding one for the past 6 months.
FINALLY! the video I've been waiting for! Thank you so much foer making this video.
An interesting thing I noticed, stronger riders tend to choose a shorter reach. Bruni, Gwin, Gee Atherton, etc, they all run bikes that would be considered small nowadays.
Very interesting and glad I'm not the only one with bike size issues. I'm 6ft4 and bike geometry has always been an issue for me not to mention the wear and tear on parts, like drivetrain, brakes, bearings etc. As I do way more extreme riding than just pedalling about, I always look for a bike that runs sealed bearings, wider handlebars, frame length and height, stem reach and gearing type. Usualy I end up replaceing all stock parts for parts that suit me more and that can become an expensive exercise. I find the only bikes that never changed over the years, well not much anyways are BMX's. The older style of bikes used to fit me better than the modern bikes do.
My girl is 5”2” and really struggling with some of these issues the bike is mint with sorted components and all in great working order however the 100mm dropper (best we could do with kink in seattube) and 27.5 front end really seems to be holding her back. i cant wait to see how instantly faster she will be with a bigger front wheel and proper seatpost clearance. the discussion of new bike and potentially even an ebike really has got her excited but still seems like we’ve got a tricky search on our hands. Im 5”11 and like you say seems around the perfect height for picking bikes i fall right between most brands medium and large so i get that option between long sled and small playfull bikes seems like whats really missing is proper xs’ and XXL’s. the packaging contraints of the bigger wheels on smaller long travel bikes really does seem to be the trickiest issue to resolve. It also accurs to me that perhaps travel figures should change slightly throughout the height scale perhaps. Ben alluded to his force/power creating capabilities it does seem strange that a 5”2” rider would need the same amout of travel as a 6”7” rider on the same track, with wildy different wheel bases….
You gotta try before you buy. I was advised to buy a large frame but it was an uncontrollable barge. The medium with a slightly longer stem fitted perfectly
Well said peoples. I am 6'-4 and am tooling up to weld together my own hardtail frame. I will finally feel what great fit is.
i'm 5ft 6 and sit literally right in the middle of most small and medium sizes. I ride a 2022 nukeproof mega size small which does feel a little small., the medium was too big but the small came with a 125 dropper. upped it to a 150 but still feel to big for the bike. Every medium i have tried has felt to big, it is so annoying.
Exact same at 5'7". I have a 2020 Nomad (v4) size medium and I'm hesitant to upgrade to a new bike because the newer smalls are too small and the newer mediums are too long...tough place to be!
@@dylanwong2282 I thought it was only shorter people than me that has these struggles! Good to know I'm not alone but also...what the heck?!?
5'7" and short torso: short enough frames are super low and ask for long droppers, which sometimes don't fit inside the seattube.
Same here. All though I went from a RM grolwer to the new fluid fs in size small. And the fluid now feels just about right. I'm also 5"6' with a 780mm inseam.
Totally agree with Ben on dropper length. More is just better with a steep seat tube
Shout out to Ben for using the word "outwith" and not getting incorrected for it.
It’s not just the frame size or geometry, but wheel sizes have also become a big factor, too.
As a shorter rider, at 5’3”, I’ve tended to ride small bikes, but when I demoed a Transition Patrol in 2020, I found the small to be too short. I also demoed a Rocky Mountain Altitude, and found the seat tube to be too high, so I wouldn’t have gained very much benefit from a dropper post of the correct length for my leg measurement. I ended up on a medium Patrol, which has been absolutely faultless.
The issue I have now is the limited options for bikes with 27.5” wheels, as most trail and enduro bikes are now in mullet or full 29er configuration.
Hi @pinkbike can you please add metric units when you mention your freedom units.
A lot of people have no idea what 5 foot 4 is.
I’m 168cm tall and I definitely sit bang in the middle of a small and medium so plenty of options but I would say that even though I can choose my preferred reach numbers the one thing I struggle with is chainstay length. As bikes get smaller they do become limited by the size of the wheel, especially in the rear. What this generally means for me is i have to move a fair bit to get over the rear axle to weight/balance the back, the true solution for me is a mullet but that does mean that you get hung up on the janky bits compared to the 29.
Interesting to hear about the suspension too… would a lighter grade of oil within the dampener change how easy the dampener can move hence giving the option to then adjust compression and rebound for lighter riders ?
I'm 6'6 and what Ben said made a lot of sense to me. I've gone through 2 sets of wheels in the last year. I run 30 psi and cush core. Even though I only weight 75kg
I'm 5'5 and I've been riding a Small/S2 stumpjumper evo and after riding some super steep, tech trails I found that I need a medium after riding my friend's status S3. Bough a Norco Sight 29 in Medium and hopefully this works! I probably need to a shorter stem
great video, and nothing changed, it#s always the fringes that get lost sadly. It appears though tht the fringes have been pushed out further. listening to Ben Cathro and his current problems, that sounds pretty similar to what I faced ten years ago but I am only 6’3“…
Great video 👏 I’d love to see a “what is bike fit” video as it seems like we’re stabbing in the dark as to what it means.
I have wanted to do that one for a while now and I think I may have the inspiration to finally do so! Thanks for the suggestion!
RAD fitting for me is the way to go. Super simple and works. As long as the RAD number is 32.75" or 83.185 cm and the bars are 760mm I can dial the rest in. I'm 5'7" with long arms and legs. We've all got our struggles lol! But they're worth it 🤙🏻😁
If you want a 29” wheel at 5’4”, scale wise Ben would be riding a 34” wheel. If you take 29ers from 10 years ago, the geometry wasn’t dialed in for older frame sizes. The current 29” wheel needs a frame size/dimensions equivalent to what an old 26” wheel would be. My 10yr old kid rides a 24” and loves how fast my 29” wheel is, but that’s not realistic for him. The leverage and physical dimensions of the bike need to be factored into a persons size. We can wish to have all the ability of a taller person, be realistic, your stature and the leverage or your height is what makes a certain wheel size work. If you want to look like Ben riding, should probably be on a 27.5/26 mullet.
Hoping to get my first mullet enduro bike soon! Very excited after having it on my dh bike for a few years. Interesting input for sure though because even I have some friends shorter than me that wish they had 29r for "easier roll over/climbing" but I do have to remind them that it is harder to turn over that 29r wheel too. It's not for days when I'm feeling weak or tired that's for sure haha In the beginning I had to size down my chainring to compensate for that.
very solid points here!!
Just shy of 6'7" and I ride trail/all-mountain to enduro style primarily. The era of long, slack bikes with bigger and more XXL frame options out there has been so helpful. But I still always have to throw on big riser bars and usually run lots of stem spacers. Have gone to more extreme rise bars (60mm-80mm rise) with using less stem spacers and have found I really like that. I still have to run about a 60 or 70mm stem with reaches in the 525-535 mm range typically. Loooong legs, so 210mm dropper works OK on trail, but 240 is best for the more aggressive stuff. STEEP seat tubes are a must!!
what bike are you using? I'm a bit shorter at 6'5-6ish and am yet to find one which fits properly
@@danbradley1537 Recently have been on a Stumpjumper and Stumpjumper Evo with custom setups, both in S6 size. Have run the evo with a 170mm fork and it's worked well. Now have a Yeti SB140 LR and while I could do with a slightly bigger frame, I use it as a trail bike, so like it's "reasonable" wheelbase. And the size still works pretty well.
Im 6.1' using L an XL frame suspension. All comfortable but depends on geo very . Like reach near 500 trail/enduro riding, stem 35mm, geo of frqme with high stack, bars 780mm rise at least 25mm.
lol very interesting! I’m 5,10” and I’ve always felt my hight is a negative as I always felt that I have to choose between a bike I’m at the very top end of or a bike I only just fit on! Always wished I was right in the middle of a size tbh
5'6", 5'7" on a good day
For a short travel 130mm trail bike I like a 460 reach w/32mm stem, 760mm bars prefer 12* sweep, 65*head tube, 78* seat tube, 440 chainstay, 35mm bb drop, 29" f/r, 2.4" tires, 30mm rims. I like to climb tech as well as decend tech.
For a long travel 160mm trail/enduro bike I like about 470 reach, 64* head tube, 450mm chainstay everything else the same as the trail bike.
As an old proportioned 5'10" male I find bike for a struggle. My short 27" inseam legs make stand over height a challenge on a bike that has an appropriate reach from my long torso. Thanks for the great video?
short chainstays for shorter riders! at 167 cm I find that having the the chainstays not longer than reach is optimal. I currently ride a Santa Cruz Nomad 5 in size S that has a reach and chainstay length of 425 mm and it's the best handling bike I've ever had: perfect weight distribution for cornering, super easy to manual and bunny hop and I still have enough room to move. Currently you can barely find bikes that have a geometry like that, it's becoming a real problem.
I'm lucky... I fit standard sizes for many things being about 6'0 - 190 with a normal 32-34 inseam and hand length from ground of 34.5 - which basically means, Large/XL for clothes, standard length/lie golf clubs, size large bikes
that said, and understanding the benefits of being able to modify the frame to be more gravity oriented by using longer droppers and seat tube angles, I actually found the trail bikes of 'yore' to actually be more playful and possibly more comfortable than these modern long/slack/low machines.
I still think more than anything - the differentiator between a XC, Trail, and Enduro bike these days is the travel. Most bikes are seemingly standard in reach, CS (though getting longer) and then angles within a deg or two - i.e. 63.5-65 HTA and 76-78 HTA
So really, what's the difference other than what you hang on the frame and the characteristics of the suspension travel and its tune?
Now as I've digressed... I FEEL that the bikes from the 2016-2018 period, where it was transitional had a more complect trail geometry that fit more of what typical (non-Park) people ride. I hopped back on my friends 2018 Troy (27.5) which had an older GX 11 speed setup, a 150 Lyrik and Monarch R suspension on the same trail I ride with my modern long legged Instinct on, and well, I think I enjoyed myself more. I think I didn't have to weight the front end as much to flat corner, I liked the acceleration of 27.5 and I liked the poppyness of the steeper HTA for natural jumps that aren't big tables or hips.
playfulness is not the same across sizes when your chainstays are too long , same as weight, the stiffnesss/weight of a 38fork is not necessarily needed. having issues with derriere and seat rubbing my rear tire in compression situations, sorted it out with additional tokens, but cant slam the seat as low as i would love to to get if off the way.
Not much scarier than a good seat buzz! I feel you!
What are your thoughts on how suitable suspension is for lighter riders?
Do stock tunes work well with the lower pressure required to get sag setup right?
For all of us in the too small or too tall groups, I will post the eye roll emoji we have for when people complain “bike sizing is so bad, I am right between he M and the L, it’s horrible, I can never find one that fits well”
😒
that'll be me. im between sizes and frustrated thinking i have bought the wrong size (my error, not sizing error). but i think today is your day. today your frusttration weighs heavyer than mine. tomorrow we can be equally frustrated again.
5'2" on a Remedy 27.5 and it's perfect for me all around quiver killer. Knolly makes the best bikes for short folks today. Will be my next bike. Can always upgrade a 27.5 to a 29 fork and effectively getting that slack angle
I'm 5'4" long legs short torso, any recommendations on size for 2021-2023 Remedy?
@@ashwinamanna2465 Knolly Endorphin Trek Remedy
Oh my god THANK YOU!!! 5'2" rider here!
Wow, what a great video and great comment section. I'm 5'6" and even I ride 27.5" wheels because I want good standover height and a low center of gravity. We had a heck of a time trying to find a bike for my wife as nothing had a low enough standover height for her. We fondant found a Marin Alpine Trail E that's a mullet setup and it's worked well for her. I really wish the bike industry would listen to women more.
My problem riding MTB and fit is; I am 5'9 with 6'6 arm span, this causes major fit issues as you can imagine.
I feel for a lot of people that want the same experience as the masses but have trouble with fit.
I was once a Roady and used custom made frames as it us easier to do I think.
I'm 6'6" heavy built and I can't stand big bikes or big wheels. My enduro bike is an xl 27. 5 which comes up a little short in reach compared to the brands xls. My e bike is also xl but mixed wheel and comes up pretty average. The enduro bike feels perfect and my e bike feels too long and causes me fatigue. The 29 up front feels faster but makes the trail a lot less fun. Both bikes are fitted with larger dia grips, longer dropper, high rise bars, additional stem spacers and shorter cranks. All these mods have been beneficial on both bikes. I have recently been playing around with narrower bars too and so far I'm finding that a positive change.
I think riding style plays just as big of a role in size choice as your physical size.
I came to mtb from a bmx background and love to shift my weight around more than my riding buddies on the trail. Anything that makes that harder feels bad for me. Stability may be fast and help riders tackle harder terrain but it isn't always a good thing (even if the industry thinks it is) .
What is the reach on your bikes, curious to know as i am 6'4" anf i also ride xl yt capra 2018
@@ricardoradkov9772 my 2019 nomad is 490mm hi 486mm low.
The ebike is 505 mm. It doesn't sound like much but I definitely feel my weight is shifted more onto my hands both seated and standing.
And you like your nomad more that the E bike i suppose?
@@ricardoradkov9772 from a geometry stand point absolutely
Interesting, but I can see that given your BMX background. Are you legs/torso proportionate or a bit longer in one vs the other, would you say?
Yep yep. 5'1" here... luckily, the latest generation of bikes actually seems to be nailing it. The numbers on my Gen 6 Fuel are finally pretty much perfect... but yeah, still spent extra dollars on shorter cranks and a bigger air spring to run it as a mullet (kinda think those things should be options based on size and spec). I also agree with your assessment of being able to get away with a bit less - my 140/160 "trail bike" is nearly an enduro rig in my mind. At my size, I don't think I require the extra travel and burliness that a bigger rider might need to tackle chunky stuff. And while I think many women in particular focus too much on standover, I'm thankful that bike brands are figuring out how to accommodate shorter riders without all the swoopy tubing. All of that said, I suppose that most riders of any size make some tweaks to get their bike fit dialed (cutting down bars, tinkering with suspension, adjusting the cockpit), so I try not to feel toooo personally neglected for being small ;).
How is the standover on that bike? Judging from the geometry numbers, it seems high.
@@tagzedawg 738 as I ride it in a size S and mulleted with a 160 fork… but lower options are available - XS (27.5) has a 716 standover, S full 27.5 is 723, and S full 29 is 736, all with the same geometry (or close, depending on minolink position). I really don’t care much about standover height and find my current configuration perfect as long as I can lower the dropper fully.
I've also just bought a Gen 6 Fuel Ex size small. I really like the bike but I hear what you say about suspension. And yes when you compare it does seem to sit well towards Enduro end of spectrum. I'm only 49kg. I guess forks are 'tuned' for heavier riders. I feel a lot of trail chatter hammering my hands on rocky tracks. So I've pulled out the 3 volume spacers from the forks (as suggested by suspension expert) to try and soften the ride as I wasn't using much of the travel anyway due to my light weight.
@@TazErrant it seems a lot of people find that integrated carbon bar/stem extra stiff and harsh too - if you’re getting a lot of hand fatigue/vibration you might try something different there 🤷🏼♀️. I do find as a smaller rider that dialing rebound is tough. Convention says we’re supposed to run it really fast, but when you don’t weigh as much as another rider, you also ricochet off of rocks easier! 😆
@@tagzedawg 738 on the size S as I ride it (mulleted with 160 fork travel). But you can go shorter with the XS frame/full 27.5 (716), S frame/ full 27.5 (723), or S frame/full 29/stock 150 fork (736). I personally don’t tend to care that much about standover, and I find my current setup perfectly great as long as I can slam the saddle!
It's funny cause, I'm 28 now and I finally have a bike that fits me super well. I'd say quite litterally the perfect fit. I'm now 5'11 and prior to that I always had bikes that were purchased too big as kid to grow into and/or became too small. At the time I just adapted to them and still had fun. But when I finally stopped growing I was able to seriously start looking sizing for me. And these days for me It's 29er Medium sized enduros with a short reach I often customize to my short arms (I'm weird I have long legs and a long torso but shortish arms.)
But yeah It's defnitly not one size fits all in moutain biking ad Used to beleive. That "its just bike, your the rider, make it work" is not a great mentality.😊
It's really a tricky thing. Depending on whether you are one of the lighter, smaller riders or the tall and heavy ones. You have to think about completely different things. I'm 6.5 and prefer a 67.5cm TT with a 35mm stem but only 75cm wide handlebars. The frontcenter should be 75 cm and reach 45 cm. A 70cm stack would be nice. So I designed my own frame and it works great for tall people
Im 5'6" but have short arms and legs equivalent to 5" so Ride Medium Reach around 450, but has to have low standover/saddle height have found that 60mm rider bars help also.
Would have been super nice if you listed or somehow mentioned those brands which offer more stack over reach or visa versa
So hard! I can't even count how many bike brands there are now on all of my fingers AND toes haha but I appreciate that you are interested!
I wait so many years for these higher stack numbers to compensate super long legs 🎉
I have to say overall frame design has come a long way over the years, I remember there was a video from last year praising all choices. Almost impossible for anyone short to find a good frame that suits them. Same goes with taller riders. I don't think there really is much to complain about re: frames and bike setup options.
My partner is 156cm which is like 5'1 or whatever in non standard units and there are pretty much no decent trail bikes that will fit her. This is ridiculous!
So many manufacturers have what appear to be such high standover heights for Small size frame riders. It’s a frustrating limiting factor in bike choice options. Sitting with the dropper down low as possible with feet dangling in the air and not exactly easy to hop on/off as such. No sale !!!
I am a 158cm rider and it is hard to find an endurance road bike in my size. I did own one, but gave it to my sister who fit even worse on anything else. My current bike is much too large for me. I ride it anyways, and I'm used to it by now, but i also work at a bike shop, and many customers my height or less aren't capable of doing that. We've been trying to get smaller ones, but they simply don't exist, so I'm stuck trying to modify them with aftermarket parts to the best of my ability.
Make smaller, quality bikes! There's a market!
I'm 171 cm, which is about the average height in Germany and when I'm looking for bikes, I'm usually on the second smallest size available. For me it just means more time waiting for bikes my size to come up on the used market, but I can't help but think that if roughly half the population is shorter than me, a lot of people must be completely left out by the market. My guess is that a lot of people just buy badly fitting frames, because the average customer doesn't really think about fit or riding characteristics too much.
I think that finding your own geo is part of fun. Experimenting with cocpit setup and angles is good motivation for another ride. And dont underestimate good old side view photo of you on your bike.
I think there were just 3 models of e mtb for my 5'1" girlfriend. It was difficult to find a bike that the dropper van fit into. At the moment we have 100mm dropper. At 5'10" a 100mm dropper just isn't enough to get the bike out the way. Of course shes on 27.5 wheels and has to put up with a really heavy bike!
Im large heavy but medium sized so learnt to ride gently with tyres and with an insert in the rear as a minimum i could actually ride hard! It takes a lot of effort to find a bike for a picky rider but when there's only a few choices available it makes it unbearable! Just glad she wasn't too worried about colour!!
I'm 6'5". Fit and decently fast rider. Modern bike geos are getting much better with reach, but chainstay lengths on xl and xxl bikes are typically way unbalanced. A bike with 520+ reach shouldn't have the same size chainstay as a size medium frame. I can count on 1 hand the number of brands I can even consider.
100%. This is getting a lot better though. I'm just under 6'7" and ride XXL exclusively. Best reaches tend to be in the 525-535mm range for me (I'd probably love a 540 with a normal stem length... Lol). I find I like a chainstay in the low 440s for trail (to balance agility in tighter trails and retain a little better wheelbase) and upper 440s for enduro. 450+ is fine for high speed, but does start to suffer in agility, at least as far as I've experienced. What chainstay lengths do you prefer?
@swimster144 I'm currently on a stumpjumper evo s6 525 reach and 455 chainstay in the low setting. I would happily trade 10 mm of reach for another 10mm of chainstay length to keep the wheelbase but improve balance. I'm actually in the process of building a custom steel front triangle to try this. Also, I'm going to steepen seat tube 2°. And add 20mm stack
The problem is that the really tall and really short riders are such a small percentage of the market. Especially small brands have a hard time making bikes for those people because of their market share. It all comes down to $$$ sadly. Size specific rear-center is probably the single most helpful thing for the too tall to small riders.
I'm about 5ft 7 with short legs and a long back, proportionately. Bikes that have a suitable standover height for me often have a slightly too short a reach.
The same stuff goes for young guns that do not fit the junior bikes ranges anymore and need to move on to small frame it is hard to get frames in small sizes with 27.5" wheels because they are even lighter than Christina ;-)
It a bit silly that a new generation of a bike come out and it longer and slacker then the previous one. It's like we'll I guess I can't ride it now. Bike seemingly keep getting longer (both in reach and wheelbase), but people aren't getting taller.
L and up getting longer has been very positive, despite people being the same size as they used to be.
However, for S and especially XS riders, it’s been often a negative. For them, the slacker head angles are a big boon, and ironically, now we have those, short riders really don’t need super long reach anymore.
Buy an Atherton, you decide the measurements.
I’m 5ft 7 on a tall day. I despise modern geo. Most of the bikes are too long in the cockpit. 400-415mm reach is my ideal and most bikes are way too long.
Thanks Christina for tackling this topic! I’m 5’1” and the struggle is real. Listen, if the average male were my size we’d have 29ers with standover for days and seat tube insertion to the center of the earth. It’s not an unsolvable engineering problem, just low priority for the industry.
Just went down to full 27.5, probably won’t go back to full 29. Mullet is interesting.
Hmmm, I’m sure this is interesting for those it pertains to and a worthwhile video. But I thought it was going to be about us riders who don’t just point our bikes straight downhill, which is what all modern geometry seems designed for.
A lot of these issues come from the fact the bike industry has used different size wheels as a marketing scam, rather than to make bikes fit a wider variety of ppl better.
Crazy that Cathro is riding the same size as me and he’s 5.5 inches taller
Great video! I feel wheels are way over built for shorter and lighter weight riders. Light riders feel the extra rotational weight, and absolute weight on the climbs for sure.
I’m a 5’3 troll. Transition’s frames are almost no compromises for me
Torso size matters. If your legs have the perfect position but you lean over too far when you pedal, then you will always put too much weight on the hands. (Arm pump / numb fingers)
This race to turn MTBs into Harleys is getting tedious. Most of us don’t/won’t/can’t ride Whistler every weekend, most of us will ride trails with occasional drops, enduro-ing once or twice a year and properly DH-ing once; that time they scared the Bejebus out of themselves at Dyfi. Selling homologation race specials are just pushing the MTB market into a niche, one that becomes more exclusive with every year and every round of longer/slacker model release. The rise of Gravel, that return to MTB geometry from the 90s, highlights exactly the cul-de-sac MTB is heading down.
6,7! He’ll be ducking under door frames!
Problem with small bikes is they almost all have 170mm cranks, which means the geometry is compromised by working around this instead of optimised for small riders.
Dear Pinkbike
I'm Jason. I'm from China. I like the videos of your channel very much, but Chinese rider can't watch the videos of this channel because of the network firewall. I want to know if it is possible to authorize your channel. Looking forward to your reply.
Thank you for your consideration.
Youe sincere
Jason
I've got a specialized enduro in s2. Im 5'8 so I'm kinda to big for it, and even i can barely make the 150 mm dropper working by slaming it so much that the cable just kinks so much that it still works. Someone else riding an s2? I dont think you can make it work if you are an inch or two shorter than me.
Ah the ol' cable kink. Been there and it's a nightmare!
Im tall like Ben. Always cut my fork steer tube appx 3/4 of an inch longer to give me room to adjust.
Long reach hardtails are pure evil, they beat you up so badly. Bikes should be like motorcycles, small workspace that you can easily move around in with a decent wheelbase. Then the bike is easy to manipulate and stable.
It is very important for the ideal geometry to change every year.
Lol, yep, every few years they discover that they didn't make the previous model low enough, long enough, and slack enough, which makes you wonder if they will ever find an ideal geometry for a particular use case? and if they do then what other changes would they make in order to entice people to upgrade?
If your 6 foot tall and searching for a used bike on pinkbike, good luck. Nothing but small and medium bikes.
Aren't the very same person, claiming all large bikes too big for your 6ft? So go out and enjoy the variety of choice in size medium then👍
im a 5’4” hobbit with t-rex arms. I ride an XS Transition Scout with a 32mm stem and 40mm rise. bar. lol
Thank you! Bike Brands?! Are you taking notes!!? And @Canyon waiting a 1 year for a bike for size XS to show up in your web-store is F&*((#@^G 11 months too long! Especially when you DO provide the same bike in size M, L, XL . So get your supply-chain shit together! And listen to your (loyal?) customers.
I find the RAD method of bike sizing works well for me.
Same...and it makes the selection even smaller for a short rider.
Really appreciate this one
Not even here in Spain I can check sizes, either due to lack of stock, size or distance from the model in question to try. Given this, I have already spent a few thousand euros feeling uncomfortable on the various models I bought. Afterwards, even selling these practically new bikes, people only want to have them almost as a gift. At least in this area the mtb culture is not like in North America, for example. A shame. Someone to adopt me there? ^^
I'm a size M and my next bike gonna be an L to XL. straight up stem. mixed wheels
I’d like to see a similar video for those of us always caught between sizes
Me for example, I am 5ft 10in, but my legs are a bit shorter than my arms. I tend to always fall into the medium to large sizes for most bikes. But the way a medium fits and rides is way different than the large in most instances
Being on a large, I’m at the low end of the spectrum so a large may feel slightly too long or big but a medium, I’m on the upper end of the spectrum and although the bike is mosh more poppy and nimble, it’s not as stable
Having sizes in frames that overlap somewhat isn’t actually beneficial for those in my position. I think that we struggle just as much to pick the right size but for different reasons
And this could be for anyone in any size that straddles the spectrum between sizes.
"I now seek out - at minimum - a 29" front wheel." What size is there above 29 and who's using them?
2:25 seeking out a 29" front wheel at a minimum. Huh? What is the max? 32" ? Seems pretty wild.
I’m pretty sure she meant, at least in the front, if not on both ends of the bike.
@@tjb8841 I know, that's the joke.
I am 5'11 and my canyon spectral medium is almost too large for me.
I'm 6ft and every large feels to big for me. I prefer a smaller medium they all feel more comfortable to me. I think if your not just doing downhill constantly you should go for a smaller more nimble bike.
@@andrewbrown8927 I agree although the funny part is my Large DH bike feels small for me.
Its not just fit that's a problem, believe it or not but there's actually people out there who don't bomb down tracks as fast as possible when they ride their bikes, and that seem to be the goal of pretty much every mountain bike manufacturer these days, now most bikes have at least a 65 degree head angle or slacker, even some cross country bikes now have a 66.5 head angle, which seems crazy to me, cross country bikes are supposed to be sharp handling bikes, now sharp handling bikes basically don't exist anymore, who needs a 66.5 head angle on a cross country bike? and if they need those specs then why not just buy a light weight short travel trail bike? but now you'll even struggle to find one of those bikes with those specs, because most of those bikes will now be at least 65 degrees, I just think its manufacturers pushing change for the sake of bike sales, years ago we actually had very different categories of bikes in terms of geometry, but now most bikes are pretty similar in terms of geometry, we just have variation in suspension travel, which is very disappointing, imaging wanting to buy a new motorcycle and the only bikes they made were sports bikes but you wanted a cruiser.