MTB Geometry Explained: Poppy, Playful, & Fun!
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- čas přidán 10. 12. 2022
- Mountain bike geometry has changed a TON over the past ten years, and riders now have more options than ever when it comes to choosing a frame that best suits their riding style. My preferred geometry is all about making my hardtail fun, poppy, and playful; making every trail feel like a skatepark!
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This guyyyy in seven minutes explain A LOT !! 😮 without all the bs that other channels does . What a vid👍 Thank you !! 👍
For sure! Glad it was helpful! Any other topics you’d be interested in seeing a video on?
The most underrated channel I've ever seen!
That means a ton, thank you!
Dang that was a great video on the mystifying side of bike geometry
Glad it was of some help! I see tons of riders who nitpick about components but never pay attention to geo. Trying to spread the word haha!
Good video. One thing to note for hardtails specifically is that geo numbers change throughout suspension travel. A 64 degree HTA measured at static travel will feel more like a 66 degree HTA under sag with a typical 130-140mm fork seen on most modern HT frames. Travel has an effect on all the geo numbers, including reach, BB drop, STA, stack etc…, it’s because of those changes that i typically prefer slightly different geo numbers between hardtail frames and full-suss.
That's a really good point, and something I definitely should have brought up in the video! Same goes with ST angle, lots of people or turned off by the slacker seat tubes on aggressive hardtails, but many are just as steep as a comparative full-suss when sag is accounted for.
This is true with any kind of bike with suspension
More so with hardtails because they don’t have a shock to sag into as well, it’s just the front end lowering
@@Shred_Tube geometry for full suss does change under sag and compression, just not in the same way as hardtails do. FS cockpits typically slacken and shorten under sag, whereas HT steepens and lengthens. Here’s a good video that illustrates that idea-> czcams.com/video/fvTKrDhypD4/video.html.
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy yup exactly. Same goes for BB height, reach/stack, and wheelbase numbers as well. Geo is dynamic!
Best explain video i saw so far...
Thank you!! What video topic would you like us to make next?
One of the best vids i've seen on MTB geo... saved to playlist, this will be getting watched again & again.
That’s awesome to hear, thank you!!
Lot's of great info, thanks for sharing!
Absolutely, thank you for the kind words 🤙🤙
As someone who hasn’t had a MTB in years…before all this slack stuff, I appreciate this video!
Glad I could help! It’s definitely a bit of an adjustment, your position on the bike changes dramatically - you don’t have to hang your butt over the back wheel anymore!
You’ll also appreciate the bikes. My first mtb was in 1990, stopped around 99 and got back into it in 2016. A lot to catch up on but man is it worth it. Welcome back! 🤙
Thanks a million for this! Wonderful intro to bike geometry!
Glad it was helpful, thanks for letting me know!
Well done! One of the easiest vids to understand on geo out there. Thanks and keep them coming
Thank you for the kind words! Any suggestions for what we make next?
The biggest role of Chainstay length is actually balance.
If you have a (to) short chainstay you will have to but a lot of force on your bars to get enougth pressure on the front tire. Especialy with long reach and slack HT.
a bike with longer chainstay can be riden in a more neutral position.
True! To be honest though I think most riders ride with to much weight in the back regardless; feels safer but minimizes control.
great explanations. thanks
For full suspension you want to look for a leverage curve that is progressive at least up to the sag point. Look up Evil bikes lr curves for reference.
Very true! And pretty similar trade offs there; the more linear the curve the more planted and calm the bike will feel, whereas a more progressive curve will feel more energetic, but harsh
I would also add a short seat tube, so you can slam the saddle down for the rough stuff and for leaning the bike under you in corners
Very true! A short seattube is a must for me!
This is so great! Thanks for the explanation.
Glad it was helpful 🤙🤙
Great information in just 7 minutes! My middlechild would pull up the font easy. My 2022 Santa Cruz chameleon mullet is super hard to pull up. I’m going to compare those geo numbers in regards to what your saying. The chameleon very stable at speed going down, the middlechild alittle twitchy up front at speed. Not bad just not it’s best feature but the middlechild does everything really well. Jack of all trades- master of non- but oftentimes better than a master of one!
What I always say is if you can only afford one bike (like me), you might as well have one that can handle just about anything; from skateparks to XC races to bike park laps!
Awesome explanation! Thank you man! 🔥🔥🔥
Absolutely 🤙🤙
Great video man, i have a transition sentinel and it has the long low slack feel which works for me as i suck at climbing anyways. Everytime you improve something, you make something else worse. Its all about what areas of biking you have fun with.
Great vid!
Only thing to keep in mind is that most riders who think they're super playful and poppy are stiff as a board/just plowers when you watch them ride.
In many ways if you're more stable (longer wheelbase) for riding trails (not just doing dirt jumps) it will actually allow you to be way more playful because your sweet spot range of balance is so much wider and you can throw the bike around much more purposefully when you're not always on edge.
That’s an interesting perspective! I’ve noticed the opposite, at least from newer riders, where folks on bigger bikes essentially let the bike do the work and hold on for the ride. But I think you make a good point, especially when comparing more advanced riders (I’m picturing the difference between a high level XC or enduro racer).
@@ridingwithjoshandwendyyep bang on, my comment is more in relation to more experienced riders and/or on more aggressive terrain.
I agree that newer riders sit stiff and let the bikes ride them so to speak. It's exacerbated by them being on mellower terrain + a progressive geo that requires a more active riding style (to get sufficient front wheel grip amongst many other things) which majority don't have, including more experienced riders.
It's exacerbated by newer riders often riding aspirstional bikes (something they'll one day ride in knarlier places) and therefore often on something grossly overbiked suspension and geo wise. Something more 'conservatve' like you discussed in the vid, does put their body position over the front a lot more by happenstance which is a good thing.
Man I have been in the market for a while now and was super intimidated doing research on what bike to get… this vid saved me man 😅
Haha good! Glad it was helpful 🤙
Nice video, explaining everything you need. Also, the bike is very nice 👌
Thank you for the kind words!! What else would you be interested in seeing a video on?
Thanks for all the tips, about to upgrade my hardtail to a newer version with a better headtube angle and longer wheelbase.
Very much enjoy it when doing street, jumps, stairs etc, but a little sketchy on bigger chunkier trails. -cheers
Makes sense! Check out the Kona Honzo ESD if you haven’t yet, sounds like it’ll be right up your alley!
As far as I'm concerned, you guys should have way more subscribers. Great channel, guys.
Thank you man! Still relatively new to CZcams, so spread the word if you can!
Great video man! Watching MTB videos in my downtime since breaking my wrist in a recent crash. Interested in making my Stumpy more playful. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful! What are your plans for your Stumpjumper?
Sorry, just saw this reply. I'm still trying to figure out my suspension. I kinda prefer Rockshox bc they have always felt more plush to me but it could just be my setup. With the Rockshox I feel like I set it and forget it but with my Fox, I am tweaking it on every ride. Currently converting it from SRAM to Shimano drivetrain. Then I'll switch to Shimano 4 pot brakes. I should've built the bike but got a good deal. Thanks again for the content! @@ridingwithjoshandwendy
Excellent content! Subbed!
Thank you!!
I have a newer single SC Chameleon with a 140 fork. Its about 64.5 degrees. I built it up to replace an older Kona single I built that had a 66 degree angle. The Kona felt a lot more like a BMX bike than the SC. I could throw it around more and choose better lines. The longer angle has a mind of its own.
It really does! I’m sure the Chameleon feels more composed in fast, steep terrain. Definitely a trade off between the too.
Def need to ride em differently. Need to keep up speed more and lean more, even on flat turns. And pump as you go through. Weight front to back is different too- much mor center of bike instead of ass hanging off the rear. I grew up with 90s mtbs so I’ve had to tweak my riding style. Last two years been really focused on turns and it’s finally paying off- whereas I used to lose a lot of time in em now Im gaining time compared tk a lot of other riders and setting a lot more PBs as a result. Keep at it cause once you get it the bike really rewards you.🤙
So true about the weight further forward!
Awesome video
Thanks! Glad it was helpful!
Hey Josh,
Thanks for the vid! What travel fork are you running in this vid?
I’m running a 27.5” 150 mm RockShox Lyrik
Thanks!
Glad it was helpful 🤙
This information needs to be put out into the ether more often. Geo has definitely progressed into the territory of making a bike more stable and safe, but at the cost of being playful and poppy. Riders need to ask themselves this question: “Is the bike riding you or are you riding the bike?”
Long, low, and slack is definitely leaning more towards very steep trails. But in most situations, it makes the bike feel more muted riding the trail.
If you are truly riding the bike yourself and you want to manipulate it with technique in certain situations, then more modest geometry is truly the way to go.
The same also goes for longer travel. More travel is good when you take big compressions off of drops and jumps, but it also mutes the trail giving the bike a more dead feeling in most situations that aren’t super steep or technical.
It’s funny how the bike industry went very long, low, and slack with longer travel bikes for many years and now “Downcountry” is all the rage.
Most bike shops will just want to sell what they have on the floor. They’ll make the argument that having more travel will save riders in many situations. This is true for beginners coming into the sport. But once you have experience and technique, playful bikes are so much more fun in so many more situations.
Couldn’t agree more! The modern crop of long travel trail/enduro bikes are great for beginners and racers, but I think there’s a lot of people out there who would have more fun on a less aggressive bike. Sure there Strava time might be a bit slower, but they’re experience will be way better!!
Im into steep, obstacle laden climbs, I prefer my downhills to feel stable and controllable (I'm 43 and not very skilled). I currently ride a Cannondale Habit HT2 (hardtail) it seems to work well for me!
Thanks! However, there is one warning I must to say to everyone who will want to make HTA steeper by reversing slackr or other headsets that make slacker(steeper) HTA - if you make steeper HTA by such headset - you'll get more reach, which is not what you want for a playful bike. I've made this mistake, my bike was on the edge of confortable size for playfulness, and adding 4-5mm reach just made it unreal worse to lift the front wheel, manual, bunny-hop
Good words, thanks for sharing!
Just found your channel and its full of great stuff. Thanks!
Im looking for a new MTB. I got a bmx 4 months ago and I feel like my YT Jeffsy now feels like a bus. First of all I want my bike to be fun on the trails. The bike youre using looks interesting but could you also give some examples on full suspension bikes with this playfulness. Hard to find when all bikes get lower, longer and slacker....
Thank you man! Ya that’s very true, most bikes are just made for speed these days, not so much tricks or flickability. I think you’d be surprised by high much you’d like the stiffer platform of an aggressive hardtail, but in terms of full suspension bikes I’d like for similar geometry numbers as I mentioned in the video; short chainstays, high bottom bracket, 65ish degree HTA. Honestly I’d put the Jeffsy in that category. Are you looking for just a lighter bike?
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy Thanks! Maybe a hard tail would be just right. Like the one you’re on. The Jeffsy just feels big and hard to get up on the back wheel. Its the latest version. It’s a large and I’m 178 cm. So the reach is much longer than it would be on some of the hard tails. Maybe I should have get a medium Jeffsy for what I like to do.
Ya, that’s a good point. I’m right between a L and XL, and usually go with a large to make it a little more maneuverable
For the algorithm 🙌 good vid
Haha thank you 🙏🙏
Hi Josh,
Interesting info. Just wat I was looking for.
One question: What about wheel size? To me it seems smaller is more playful, right? What is the wheel size on your bike? 27.5?
That's correct, think smaller=more playful and bigger=faster. I personally prefer 27.5" because agility/pop/playfulness are what I prioritize, but both are good for their own reasons!
Excellent concise explanation. I’ve been saying for a long time now that I think the thing that is the biggest reason why 27.5s feel more poppy and playful than 29ers is bb drop- 29ers have a significantly greater bb drop due to the larger wheels - which helps with high speed stability bc more in the bike, but is a detriment to making the bike poppy and playful. I came to this conclusion when I measured a 27.5 x 2.6 and a 29 x 2.3 and realized there was only half an inch difference in diameter, which didnt seem to me to be enough difference itself to account for the difference in feel. But it also confirmed my feeling that the rollover of my 27.5 x 2.6 was not much different than that of a 29 x 2.3. You are the first person I have heard who has also talked about bb in relation to axle height’s affect on poppy/playfulness.
I have one bike for everything- my 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson. I love bombing gnar at high speed, hitting steeps, but still love a nice flow trail with berms and jumps and even like going to a DJ or skatepark sometimes. So my bike has to be able to it all. Here’s what I have settled on and why:
Long front center and reach and short chainstays- why- length helps it have a bigger wheelbase for stability but keeping the length in the front and the chainstays short still allows me to be able to get the front wheel up easier.
65 degree +/- .5 degree HTA- why- just like you said- perfect middle ground of slack enough for high speed gnar and steeps, still steep enough for steeper lipped jumps.
Short stem (35mm) and wide bars- why- weight back and wider riser (30 mm rise) bars makes for excellent stability with really no detriment to playing around since Im not doing crazy tricks where the wider bars might get in the way (I’m pretty broad shouldered so just more comfortable too). The rise also aids in getting back on the steeps and lifting the front end.
27.5 x 2.6 wheels/tires on a bike with a slightly lower bb- why- like I said above- 27.5 wheels have less bb drop so you sit higher in the bike to make it easier to play, but lowering the bb itself just a bit puts you down in the bike a bit more for stability. Why 2.6- the added width helps with added grip in corners (29ers give you added grip by provided added front to back ground contact, a 2.6 gives it to you by providing added lateral grip) better high speed stability, and ability to air down more for even more grip.
STA- not crazy steep but not too slack- 75-77 degrees seems about right-why- too steep and it makes the cockpit feel cramped when flat and makes you actually feel a little OTB when pedaling on flat.
Crank arms- 170 mm- I think crank arm length was the last carry over from road bikes and most of us except 6 footers + are on too long cranks.
I put some Saint brakes on her with a 203 mm rear disc, an Onyx hub, an all XT drivetrain, and my favorite Deity TMac pedals with some good sticky shoes and man do I love her.
It’s always good to hear from people with similar tales, helps reassure me that I’m not leading anyone astray haha! I still haven’t tried 27.5x2.6. I rode 2.8s once and HATED them, and currently ride 2.5 front and 2.3 rear. I’ll have to give them a try though!
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy yeah felt the same about 2.8s on anything but rocks. Too much sidewall squish in the corners. But 2.6s- 🤘 they have none of that- lean em on those side knobs as much as you want.
I like your set up- kind of old school bmx like my old Mongoose Californian.
You try a mullet? I have to admit Im intrigued. The only reason I might get another bike is for one that is more DH focused- 63 HTA, coil shock and Im thinking mullet might be perfect. Liking the Santa Cruz Nomad. I’d still keep my Bronson as my regular, but as I am getting into some steeper and gnarlier stuff in the mountains and at bike parks sometimes the Bronson is a bit on the edge, and at 50 I wouldnt mind a bit more safety net. Lol.
Dude youre vid was spot on and so well done. Not sure how your channel hasnt popped up on my feed but Im subbing. Have fun out there. 🤘🤙
Thank you man! And funny you should say that haha, I actually just filmed a video today revealing my new frame, 63 degree HT and I’m highly considering building it as mullet. I’ll be posting it later this week 🤙
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy Sweet! Can’t wait to check it out. Mullet- just do it!! Lol
Haha it’ll happen!
What’s a good bottom bracket height?
Awesome video man! 👍 sick bike too the rsd I tried to buy one but no luck in Australia went with the chameleon ..
Thank you! Chameleon is definitely a rad bike too, how do you like yours?
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy yeah mate I absolutely love it ! So much so actually that I sold both my full suspension Hightower and Bronson .. ordered the new v8 frame mx and should be here any day now fingers crossed 🤞 .hope it is as good as the last model ;)
Nice, that’s awesome! Have you ridden a mullet setup yet? Curious to try it myself!
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy nah man I haven’t rode one yet but I’m pretty keen to give it a crack ! Hopefully it ticks the wheelies and manual box or I’ll be swapping the dropouts back to 29er set up ;) I’ll have to let you know my thoughts of it man 👍
Nice, I’m sure it will. Enjoy it!
Dude you have my name and my bike tires on a black hardtail!🤯Subscribed
Hell ya 🤘🤘 What bike are you on?
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy A 2021 GT Avalanche fully upgraded. Put like a grand into it.
Nice man! My last bike was a Marin San Quentin 1 that I did the same to, basically had that thing where the only original part left was the frame
@@ridingwithjoshandwendy that’s awesome bro! Upgrading is hella fun, I only been MTBing for a year, so technically my first bike was a Schwinn Al comp from Walmart..lol.. So the 1k Gt brand new was a big step up, but apparently there’s a lot more stepping up to do!😅 looking at the Roscoe or the Stoic next man. Hardtail’s for Hardmen brother👊
Nice, both rad bikes!! Keep it up man!
I want the bike to transform or change my weight on it to propel itself forward.
What is the appropriate geometry for the bike?
Look into an XC bike, so short reach/chainstay, 66-68 degree HTA, and it’s not geo related, but lightweight, low rolling resistance tires
Does a 65 degree--or less head angle really make a bike easier to handle even in climbing with tight switchbacks? And how in the world can you reduce chainstay length when bike wheels have gone from 26" to 29"? Can't go shorter than the wheel radius.
No, slacker HTA is not great for techy, agile climbs, but great for fast and steep descents! And there’s 29” bikes with 420mm chainstays, it can definitely be done!
Does anyone know if 66 head angle is good
Great, all around HTA!
What is a slacker head tube angle? I didn't learn about slacker angles in math! Ha... What is a manual?
Haha no worries! A slacker head tube is a less steep fork angle, essentially putting the front wheel further in front of you. Manuals are riding on your back wheel without pedaling
Google 70s enduro motorcycle