Perfect CPU Lapping w/ KINGPIN & Fixing Intel's Thermal Delta
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- čas přidán 22. 03. 2019
- Working with KINGPIN at EVGA to perfectly sand a CPU IHS. Mostly, anyway. We basically just talk with KP and TiN while holding a CPU on a sander.
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This video follows our previous lab tour with KINGPIN and TiN, which you should absolutely watch over here: • KINGPIN Overclocking L...
Using an automated sander helps ensure a smoother finish on our Intel i9-9980XE. We have test data from before sanding the IHS down, and plan to look at before vs. after CPU lapping to see the thermal improvement on our cores.
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Host: Steve Burke
Guests: KINGPIN + TiN
Video: Andrew Coleman
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Hugs from Vince lol
I remember pre sanding sample mounts by hand and drawing blood not realizing it.
Auto polisher is what ya need , look up struers polishing machine. Polishing samples for inspection in SEM you typically go down to 3 um at least then if you are taking photos for a report I’d do 1um then maybe a 300nm and a special polish that’s chemical reaction more than a a grit. You can get locally flat to a few 10s of nm. That flat you shouldn’t need any sort of paste if you make sure to keep the surface clean.
Been doing this with an upside down hand sander. Works pretty good so far. Did 2 2700x and 1 8083. Idk about total differences on any but my personal rig and seems to have taken my 12 degree Delta down to 4 ish.
We appreciate the literal blood sweat & tears you put into the channel and also the awkward Ghost reference thumbnail!
Oh wow, Watching Kingpin on JustinTV that brings back memories.
Antonio Banderas and Tech Jesus Ghost homage thumbnail is awesome!
That's EXACTLY what we were going for.
Epic
I wanted to make this joke.... Damn you homework!!!!!
OMG he does look like Antonio banderas lol. OC Antonio!
Type O Negative just called, they want their singer back.
I am a lab manager for a petrographic thin section lab which requires a lot of lapidary knowledge. The rounding you see on the outside is from the rotation of the cpu on the grinding surface. Two things you can do to improve the planeness of the cpu is to 1. hold it as low as possible to limit rotational forces and 2. don't hold the cpu in one spot on the grinding surface. What I saw in the video will guarantee an uneven grind just the mechanical fact that the outside of the grinding disc spins faster than the center. The most advisable motion to perform is a figure 8 motion. This will prevent you from grinding too long in one spot and also wear the grit paper down evenly.
How TF you gonna do figure eights on a Grinding wheel going one way
@@Whateverfloatsyourboatnoah you don’t? I think he means on a non moving sanding surface.
@@ThatOneScienceGuy oh ok
@@Whateverfloatsyourboatnoah You "drift" it up and down on one side of the paper. Right now they're only using about half.
I can't say I've ever lapped a cpu or heasink but I do lapping and polishing in machining, I'd say if you want to do this at home get some glass or a mirror big enough to lay a full sheet of wet&dry paper get the paper soaking wet then lay it on your glass and the water should keep it in place for what you're doing...if it moves around a lot you're likely using way too much pressure, just go in a nice wide figure 8 barely pressing on it at all.
It should take a long time so pick a weekend or a day where you don't have to do anything else and for the love of god take your time, work up the grits with pleanty of water you can't really use too much water and don't get impatient or skip grits.
A blood sacrifice was made to overclocking gods, this CPU will get to where none has before!
(Tech) Jesus bled for us!
And on the Sixth Day. The CPU Overclocked like no other CPU in the world. On the Seventh Day. Jayz could never beat any of Tech Jesus' Benchmarks.
B E Y O N D C O M P R E H E N S I O N
Blood sacrifice, hahahahaha!
That got me thinking... wonder what the performance of blood would be as thermal paste.
"I'm gonna grind my finger off"
drips blood
"oh I am grinding my finger off"
LOL
Aleluia, the machine has the blood of Tech Jesus, is now blessed!! LOL
can i get a timestamp for that? i don't have time to watch the full video :(
@Chiken Nuget 8:50
I was waiting for I bleed for this damn thing.
i worked with a similar disk sanding machine with higher Grit size you dont even notice that your fingers are touching until you see the blood flowing. Steve had the advantage to sand a CPU i had to sand verry small precious metal samples. my thumb was bigger as some samples.
The value of used potters wheels on eBay just went through the roof.
I know it's just a joke... But I have to reply, just in case anyone is actually stupid enough to take it seriously (Particularly since it's a top comment)... Potters wheels while they look similar are not the same as metallographic polishers, they have far lower tolerances, and of course any method of attaching sandpaper to them would have to be DIY... When polishing a IHS or CPU Die there's a reason you do it on glass or a mirror when doing so manually, and it's because both glass and mirrors in order to show no optical distortion have to have high tolerances, that is extremely relatively flat.
Potter wheels don't have this requirement, and so you will not get an even grind out of one if you DIY it, and are likely to damage your CPU. The reason metallographic polishers are so expensive is they have the same tolerances as a Whitworth Surface Plate, or just a Surface Plate I guess, although I like giving credit where credit is due. The point is, what seems to be 'roughly' the same design, is actually a massive difference in engineering precision, and you need that precision when screwing around with trying to make a 'perfectly flat surface.'
Again, the original poster was no doubt just joking, this isn't a reply to him, just a comment for anyone who didn't get the joke to spare them some agony..
@@dragoonsunite oh god I hope no one is that stupid... But from conversations I've had on other video threads it wouldn't surprise me.
The tolerances would have to be the same as a surface plate (go watch "This old Tony" or "Abom79" they use them to check tolerances pretty frequently anyone who has never seen one used). But the bearings that allow the plate to turn would be precision too similar to a lathes bearings which are very expensive £400 each for the one I'm rebuilding.
So yes it was a joke, if you want to do anything like this at home use a mirror or buy a surface plate and do it by hand. (I am however now slightly interested how close to flat you could get one of these in a lathe with the right setup... I wonder if Tony would do my 7700k for me as I don't care about it). And anyone else thinking it, I was surprised they didn't use a surface grinder too, seems like that was made for this job...
well it looks like an actual potters wheel compared to industry polish-grinders seeing it done by hand is cringe for me, nice work none the less
Andrew Culverhouse A simple 12” polished stone tile or piece of glass from Hone Depot (both very flat), some wet dry sandpaper and elbow grease will work too.
@@CosmicFlower-vr-is-me Hone Depot? ..... Holy Bad Unintentional Pun Batman !!!!
Crazy how long Kingpin has been a staple for overclocking, I remember he was a god even in the early 2000's, dude is an actual legend
Definitely, remember seeing him post on some overclockers forum in 2004, phase change and ln2
GN: I bled for this F*cking thing!
hahah
10/10 ghost reference thumbnail
the prophecy was true... Tech Jesus spilled his blood in redemption for manufacturer's sins again. I feel blessed. May your framerates be high and your temperatures low, fellow enthusiasts!
Amen
Amen
Amen
Amen
Amen
cpu was like 2k but it shaved out to be bloody kingpin edition price jumped 3k :D
"Sandpaper Enthusiast" I died LMAO.
Rip
LMAO
"GNs best fan" or "JaysTwoCents advisor" xD
I died seeing that too, too funny
Everyone has their own fetish :D
TiN is so awesome. When both Steve and Kingpin dont know something. Dude just jumps in with the info
...very quietly apparently, lol
what the hell is a handler ???
@ was thinking the same thing...like he puts him on a leash after he's finish sanding before walking him to his cage.
@@HFIT hahahaha I was imagining more of a hit man thing. like the guy that gives him contracts . but yeah , that works
is it just me or does kingpin look like he is a samurai from 1200
He's Antonio Banderas
bigmeatieballs he is actually a samurai from the year 3200.
@Scotland Dobson That would make for a good graphic novel ...... The Adventures of Cyberpunk Samurai
He looks like he's got a silenced pistol tucked into the back of his pants underneath that hoodie
@@budgetbajur Oscar Isaac is who he reminds me of.
9:00 I like how the CPU is a smiley face and Steve's Blood is a sad face.
Noticed it earlier in the process LOL!
That bright smile from kingpin... Should Der 8auer feer jelous?
No, he's superior, der 8auer,he is the absolute expertise and he needs to know that. All three of them are good of course, but if you look at the HOF entries as a whole, no question remains unanswered. It may be that I'm a bit biased and I don't want to say anything negative, only in view of the possibilities GPus to cherrypick cards and then burn as much of them as necessary (I just assume) it only seems logical to me that 1. Rank scores must be produced in 3D Mark. I mean in this world there is never equal opportunities in a competition. Gaining an advantage in validation is part of every competition. Some have resources and internal information that would have to create even greater superiority in some hands, otherwise I wouldn't say anything.
This was cool, but we want the behind the scenes footage. The one that has y'all sitting around a campfire sipping wine discussing hair care techniques.
I buy that for a dollar
Oh gosh I thought u were gonna say the edition where kingpin boofooed Steven while they're pulling each other pony tails cuz I would sooooo not fuckin buy that
Lol xD
Roasting marshmellows on his stock cpu
Antonio Banderas and Tech Jesus Ghost homage thumbnail is awesome!
The thumbnail is some brotherly love for that extra good lapping job
lapdance
Lapjob?
Two tech guys one cpu
Very nasty xD
Hearing the stories from KP and tin from back in the day is super interesting
I know this is old content, but its some of my favorite from GN..
KP is such an inspiration! I try not to fanboi, but he is so fkn cool!!
Thank you for bringing us this content, Steve!
Cool fact: Vince's last name is Lucido wich in italian means polished. He is lapping cpus as polished as possible...
@Brad Viviviyal it may be Italian dialect but where my parents come from near Naples "shine" is "lucido" e.g., let's say in Englisg "it is shiny" is said "è lucido" in our dialect. In modern Italian however it is "è brillante".
Ø 0 pcb t 44 gutt try åybp0
Shout out to Kingpin for the Justin.tv throw back. I used to watch EPL and la Liga through that streaming site.
Sir Nicholas arr those were indeed the good ol days....
Kingpin is like the end boss of overclocking.
more than that, you'll be surprised how crazy this guy is..
@@niks660097 so crazy that he needs a handler...
@@AL3O2 lol who the fuck is this guy, i can't find anything about him anywhere
@@JohnCrichton some nobody
Man this is cool hangin with the OG's listening to KingPin and Tin along with you Steve. You ended 2018 very well and have a big start on 2019 content. There is a Holy Grail out there and I'm betting on GN to find it.
-"How much experience d'ya have on sanding IHS'?"
-"I've lost my fingerprints so long ago".
- "Enough said, man".
@5:41 "...Oh, my love, my darling
I've hungered for your touch
A long, lonely time
Time goes by so slowly
And time can do so much
Are you still mine?
I need your love
I need your love
God speed your love to me..."
Good work guys. I am working in a metallography lab. I do a lot of grinding on very similar machines. I can appriciate the hard work on the sanding machine.
you guys really nailed the top/bottom dynamic.
Steve's done his first real lapping,
He did it at Vince and Tin,
Sanded it until his fingers bled,
Was the winter of '19
(On the tune of Summer of '69)
Vince and Tims should really get back into the livestreaming! I would love to watch these mad men at work.
this kinpin guy is coll AF , never heard of him until yesterday
If that was Linus the cpu would be on low earth orbit by now =D
@Brad Viviviyal like bill nye
Brad Viviviyal
Sure everyone believes you:)
TiN got a new "title" every episode he's in...
lol I noticed that too, Power Wizard was my favorite. Vince got one that said Advisor to Jayztwocents in a previous video
I love how Kingpin is so detached to the price of components and TiN is "it's $10 cheaper" pretty funny especially when Steve is going all robber status sanding off his fingerprints. . .
No need to track prices when it's always free
rumors say kingpin overclocked his own haircut
Mostly watch GN for benchmarks and stuff. But had to stop by to give a like and say that thumbnail is absolutely priceless.
In Soviet Russia turntables scratch you
why grinding by hand at all? is there any grinders used to grind motor heads?
I remember my first manual lapping. Grinded my fingers too. Learned to wear latex gloves.
So keen to see improvements
So i just did this by hand thinking it was an easy way to lose a couple of degrees. Used a pane of glass to ensure I had a flat surface and went from 80 grit to 120 grit to 200 grit etc all the way to 2000 grit and achieved a mirror like copper finish. Only thing is it took me 5 hours!
I did this on a Xeon X5675 that i bought off Ebay. The heat spreader is soldered so no delid. This heat spreader had 2 giant dents which I saw when sanding. I spent most of my time sanding with lower grits and finally achieved a flat surface. If I had to do it again I would buy 45 grit to speed things up. Once you have a flat surface you spend 5 min at each grit to get mirror finish. Also lapped air cooler (Corsair A70) worried about blasting though a heatpipe . Took less than 30 min to level the cooler.
Conclusion : Do it, few degrees here few degrees there really add up. Oc'ed the X5675 to 4.35ghz for AZ summer, winter run daily 4.5ghz. Temp usually in 70s when stress testing. I imagine I saved 3-6 degrees total.
I just use a rubber sponge pad to hold the CPU down, makes it much easier to eventually apply pressure and don't have to worry about sanding through your skin lol.
Also, when wet sanding 3M sand paper wears out quick and quickly turns 200 grit into crappy 400-600 grit. I found Gator sandpaper takes much MUCH longer to wear and works much faster.
we use Wurth and it's probably the best I saw, but you mostly can't just go and buy it in hobby market, they sell only to companies
Steve put his blood, sweat & tears into making this video!
That's how pure content should be made. Also an overckloker star.
Thanks for all ways doing something different that is still informative and interesting.
Had a massive improvement on air back in the late 2000's when I finally decided to lap my q6600 and zalman cooler.
Wish I had that machine as I used a mirror and different grit sandpaper
I just find it appalling that an incredibly expensive CPU like this one comes with such an uneven heat spreader surface
The tech-Jesus and Steven segal is killing it
I've done lots of metal polishing on lapping machines for material science research. Part of the challenge is applying even pressure. It's very easy to apply slightly more pressure on one side which would lead to an uneven surface. Nonetheless an interesting video! May have to try this at work.
Awesome content, GN!
That thumbnail is... Quite something.
Vince is a handsom gentleman.
Tech Jesus bled for Intel's sins.
DavidGX nice rendition man
Man I'd watch Vince and Tim just F around at their shop mon-fri every damn week. Absolute Legends...Tech Jesus ain't no slouch either!
that sound as soon as the IHS touches the grinder sends shivers down my spine
Lapping cpus in 2019... nice work intel.
As they said: For normal use lapping is totally unnecessary. So why would Intel waste money on the 1% that actually needs a perfectly flat CPU?
@@Ruhrpottpatriot the answer is ~-30c improvement. Tested with a 5960x and lapping the ek block also....... im not a professional i did it on my glass table. So ye thats totally necessary if you spend so much for a cpu with custom cooling and you see full load 80c on 1.228vcore at 4.4ghz
@@ChrisGR93_TxS See, but you're already part of that "1%". A normal user will buy that CPU, insert it (if even; most buy pre-built systems), change nothing in the BIOS and use it. Those settings let the CPU run, even with turbo well within specs. No need to spend money to make it flatter
@@AndreiNeacsu You missed the point. It doesn't matter which CPU it is. No company can afford to make IHS' that precise that the 1% who need them that precise needn't lap them. For the average user the current IHS flatness is good enough.
@@Ruhrpottpatriot Why then just don't offer for 1% DYI Kit? CPU + IHS. Add whatever you want between them, lap CPU die, Lap IHS... But no.
Jesus Tech & Kingpin bromance for lapping a CPU with hand gestures😂
Leading edges tend to dig in and cut faster so it's best to apply the clamping load 30-40% in from the trailing edge. You can even see it in multi piston brake callipers, by the different diameter pistons.
I have never ever seen this process before! Recently, my eight year old motherboard failed. I had an Intel i7-CPU that I saw was looking oval? Putting a steel ruler across it, it was clearly bulged high at the center. Not good for matching with a cooler! I took engine lapping compound and manual circular motions with constant repetitive turning at 45 degree turns to keep a flat surface. I saw an even and flat reduction until completely flat!
You do not need to remove all of the Nickle coating! As long as you remove all the high spots and have a 4 point (all corners) contact showing a clean clear flat surface, that is then a flat surface! Check it at all points >>>> across midpoints between each corner and then at corner to corner with the steel ruler. No light seen under the ruler? Then it's flat and ready to mate with the cooler!!!! Patience and common sense. No need for this fancy machine!
Cheers
derBauer would have made a tool/holder for that. x) German perfection every time (Y)
i bet he already has one but its a secret :D
@Lost Khajiit there are probpably like flat,flat with mirror finish and transparent options
Die lapping and heatspreader lapping was a huge thing back when Pentium IV was released. People came up with all kinds of rigs, but the best results can be achieved by using the same tools and following the same rules that people use for knife sharpening.
What you need are high quality grinding stones, a stone holder, a diamond stone flattener and the skills to rock the CPU back and forth without wiggling it.
you could make sandpaperdisc and holder gyrostabilized for ensuring perfect flatness.
another option would be a self stabilising device, whith laser - measures distance to 4 points of sandpaperdisc and 4 points to the cpu.
Had to wonder how "true" he was presenting the cpu to the stone?
@GN reached a whole now level in thumbnail
Reminds me of DPreview's Chris and...
Keep these videos going!!
This is fucking excellent! Thanks for shooting this!
So... what if you buy a copper IHS... sand it so it's like a mirror, then use a liquid metal/solder technique for the TIM... I wonder if you could solder it yourself? Would be one hell of a cool running CPU I think.
That would be insane probably. but then in that case why not just delid entirely.
Why not delid and sand silicone? 😋
I've heard to solder the IHS on you need an oxygen free kiln, one which uses argon or nitrogen, otherwise the specific solder used can oxidise, but yeah would be super cool
The silicon needs to be specially treated as does the ihs for the indium based solder to work. Der8auer did a video on soldering your own cpu.
You can go really far then that, get IHS made of silver, polish it to a mirror, balance height of every edge. But direct die contact (copper tubes directly on CPU die) still be effective since layers between CPU and cooler tubes are eliminated.
Could be cool to see both IHS and cooler lapped to a point where you could ring them together, would still need paste and prob yield no benefits, but hey, you could always use it as a showpiece, floating heatsink sticking to a CPU without glue or screws.
You guys are crazy funny!, I love the process how you guys get it flat, now just need one of those machines. ;)
I've been sanding ihs for over a decade. Cool that it's finally a thing.
Tech Jesus blessed that CPU with his own blood (8:50). It will goeth where none before have.
I didn't know the Skylakes came with sandy beaches.
I love the Ghost Reference... I watch you because your from my generation and it just feels right! lol
these videos are really awesome :D
"sandpaper Enthusiast" :D good description
Glad to see KINGPIN rocking with the G Shock gang!
Wearing a regular watch these days is almost considered going retro.
Love my G Shocks.
Popped up in suggested,now ready for next collab with kingpin..
Good morning. Wow. Amazing. So cool. Very, very nice. Greetings from Poland.
I want what he's having
Where the hell are the results?!?!?!?! We want results! Awesome thumbnail btw!
Its a joke...... there is NO way that will make any difference, not one IOTA! of a difference.....
@@angelodagnolo984 Wrong
@@dickr9345 really.... show me the proof!
@@angelodagnolo984 Derbauer did similar things not only with ihs, but with the die itself, there are differences. Just look for it. It doesn't hurt.
@@angelodagnolo984 I'm sure you'll see it soon enough. Steve did this for a reason.
We're not talking lower temps necessarily, rather lower core-core deltas. You think Vince does this for fun?
If you want proof go find it. Again, you think people do this just for the Lols?
I hate lapping by hand, I do not have a machine. However, lapping by hand I have never sanded my skin off! Thank you for this video.
The blood splatter made a smiley face similar to the nickel face left on the processor
How does the cpu ihs get validated for flatness when all is said & done? Granite surface plate & feeler gauge?
sixtyinsix also wondering this
yes, they should definitly use a surface grinder and a good granite place, they aren't even that expensive...
Vince looking like the bad guy king from Shrek
OMG what a lapping machine! Only worthy for Kingpin and Steve! ;)
Interesting! I remember taking the cooler interface and using 3000 grit wet stone to polish the bottom, but never, ever a processor. Also old school, I used to apply Artic Silver with a razor blade to get an absolutely thin layer of paste. This looks so much easier for the polishing... Not sure I would do a CPU... but..
Vince: I told you he won't know if his fingers are being sanded off
my 2700k 8 years ago was concave by over .025 thousands. i know because i put a depth mic on it and measured it.
Disgraceful quality control.
@Brad Viviviyal no possible way you would know i measured it at work.
Young padawan Tech Jesus learning from the master ;) Always a pleasure to see Vince.
God that grinding sound. For some reason it made my toes curl.
The bromance is strong in this one. But I think Steve and Roman is the cuter couple.
He put the grease in that hole.. how do you get it out again? or is that not necessary?
You can leave it in the hole. The hole is only there to vent flux gas from when the heat sink was soldered to the CPU. Plugging it after the soldering has no effect one way or the other.
Gamers Nexus tech videos are on a whole different level than other tech channels.
That brings back memories of sanding a Celeron 433 until I could see my reflection. I just had a mirror with sandpaper tape to it though
Did it with a pentium dual core, then finished it with brasso and a piece of leather. Looked great
An MTBer sanding CPU's:
"Skin grows back..."
😄
You want to experience TRUE LEVEL?
DO YOU?!?
Moans fullfilled by satisfaction**
Looks like one of my old diamond laps, i used to facet gems back in the day i did custom jewelry for 16 years, did a lot of cabs, never thought about using that equipment for lapping CPU's, though have honed a few knives with it. lol Patience is key and a steady hand. You could make a jig to get a perfect plane.
It seems that applying marker on the ihs could help as an surface level indicator. This idea is from guitar frets leveling technique and it really helps to see wether all the frets have leveled.
Don't need it. The lid is already nickel plated so you can very clearly see your low spots. When you see pure copped your lid is flat(ter)
Kingpin sort of looks like Count Dracula and TiN's his Igor henchman. I guess that explains blood sacrafice from Steve
A mill would do this in seconds. Just ask at nearest engine repair shop. They can make it super flat for bottle of beer)
Copper is really grabby to mill and would be a nightmare to mill a part this thin, a well set up surface grinder would probably be a better option.
7:25 That is such a happy little CPU
Man I haven't hand lapped CPUs in more than 15 years .... Back in the mid-90's my brother was into restoring and and using antique wookworking tools and he got a hold of the huge 1" thick piece of glass at least 1ft x 2 ft for sharpening draw planes and I talked him into letting me borrow it and away I went lapping CPUs and heatsinks .... then output transistors and heatsinks in high watt power amps for concert sound systems and then doing before and after testing (Yes it does make a difference but probably not enough for the time involved) ..... There is some kind of special thick dye that is used in precision lapping of heads, blocks, intake and exhaust manifolds that you can use to judge how flat it really is down to micro-millimeter resolution. Lapping times were judged by the length of a baseball or football game on the TV in the workshop "How long did that one take you?" " Oh about 8 innings" .... "OK we'll use 220 for the 1st quarter and swap to 400 for the 2nd quarter, take a break for halftime and go to 800 for the 3rd ..."
Lol, I thought that photo was from that guy and his girlfriend
Lol that thumbnail btw first?
LOL. It's a reference from the movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore.
naughty lapping
@@jayireland561 yeah a I know. The one with whoopy Goldberg also.
Steve this just reminds me of the Film Ghost !
Nice KP and TiN in one episode!