Yes you are correct. However I have found over the years. That changing the grease every year is not needed. Only if it has water in it. Or a bearing issue. With three mowers it was to time consuming. It leaks out through the small bearings anyway. So add as needed in the spring service. The shins are a constant battle.
Chad - Thanks for putting up this video. Just checked grease levels on my 5209 and all had sufficient levels however the farthest box had a deep green, slightly thinner grease. Suspect previous owner used a different brand grease, unless this color change might be a sign of liquifying lubricity. (?) Relevant or not, none of the gear boxes had shims. Main question is in regards to the play that exists between adjacent gear boxes. With top covers off, I can hold one drive gear firm while easily rocking the adjacent drive gear. Movement is up to a quarter inch rotation I'd guess. Best I can assume is that this slop exists where the hex shaft enters the drive gear. I don't have it apart to confirm this. Nor have I ever had new parts in front of me to confirm how tight this should be. Granted, it's probably only a concern when the torque is first applied (when engaging the PTO). However I'm hoping for an opinion as to longer term ramifications. I'm not a heavy user, cutting 40 acres just two times a season. On a different note: Do your main gear boxes on either of your 5209's run hot? Mine gets very hot to the touch after just an hour or so of work. Gear oil is fresh and full. Thanks for any input you may be able to provide. -- Steve
Ok so if you take out the hex shaft you will probably see significant wear on the shaft where each gear rides. The gear wears about .25 as much as the shaft. In most cases if you have a super hot turtle. You have bearings going in the top or bottom. Or the gear lash is way to tight. It doesn’t matter if it’s 40 acres or 400 it’s no fun being broke down 👍 Good luck.
That grease needs to be changed out. I use a ton of paper towels to scoop out the old grease and fill 1/2 way with number 0 grease. There are shims to adjust the gear mesh and it can't be too tight. Also use blue Loctite on everything with clean threads on the bolts and nuts. I use an 18 volt Milwaukee impact wrench and it makes short work of it.
Did you line up the top of the gear boxes from right to left facing the cutter head? Also if you have wore out blade holders sometimes the blade can hit the 1/2 bolt behind the gearboxes. They can also hit the adjacent turtle when running. Get under it make all the knives go out like it is in use. And turn it by hand slow. Each turtle should be 90deg to the next. If it’s not. Maybe you need to realign the gearbox top.
Notice....... you can buy the drive shaft that drives the turtles ( mild hard steal ) for about 25 dollars. Lets not talk about the cost of a dealers price !!!!!! Tapered heads on the cap bolts ???? To remove them if the heads are stripped..... heat them cherry read... careful not to cut them off. Reheat again cherry red. When they are cooled off.......take a hammer and tap on the heads firmly. Use only a 6 point socket Try........and if its still slack.......tap it again. If its too flattened.........tap the socket on the bolt head. It will come out !
This job is done much easier if you lift the entire hitch up. Put a block ( in front of the tires to prevent the machine from tipping entirely over " upside down " ) This way you can do the work standing up !
EP (extreme pressure) grease. Did the newer red models cutter bars gear housings have better thread depth and placement into the meatier metal main body of that casting, unlike our old gray one seemed they added little lobes of metal into the cavity that were failure points for me.
@@coleman251 start on the far end of the mower. Take the end piece off then the skid plate. Pull out the hex shaft drive. Remove hex bolts that hold gearbox and 1/2” bolts behind gearbox. Once you get gearbox out and the top off make note which side of the gearbox the lower gear is facing it matters! A couple snap rings on the outside holding the bearings in. Press the gear side into the gearbox. Once the bearing is showing put two3/4” or so spacers under the bearing and on the gearbox so you can push/hit the hex pipe out of the bearing then the whole gear tube can come out. Then the bearing on the tooth side sometimes you can get it off in a vice with a bar or chisel or just cut it with a grinder and break inner race. Take not of all the spacers on either side of the bearings when removing. Have fun 😀
Hey Chad Moving back to Eastern North Carolina to farm mostly raising livestock. Looking at New Idea equipment a NI discbine 5212/5312 and round baler 4865/45. What would your advise be? Just want to get started as cheap as possible. Kevin
I would not advise the 5212 unless you have large roads and fields. It is not a center pull so it doesn’t fold up enough to be safe on the road. And are a bit cumbersome to move around. However you can get them cheaper because of this. Round balers I don’t know much about. I have a gallignani silage baler. Thats the only one I know about. It uses steel rolls no belts. And has a cutter head on the intake paid around 6k for it 8 years ago.
Yes you need to start from the output side. Technically the first gear box is supposed to lead by just a little bit. But unless everything is brand new and lash is perfect it really doesn’t matter. Just make sure they are square with each other from right to left facing the cutter head.
Hello again Chad: Finally got to taking things apart. Was expecting to see visual wear on the hex shaft ends but the first segment looks clean and sharp. (I have a segmented drive shaft.) Without yet having a fresh sample of a 5/8 hex shaft for comparison, I don't know how tight that shaft should fit within the gear. There's a very slight amount of movement when I rock the shaft back and forth. Yet prior to disassembly, the two gearboxes farthest from the main drive (right side when standing behind the discbine) allowed a fair amount of movement before one gearbox finally caused the adjacent gearbox to move. (I'd guess perhaps 5 to 10 degrees movement.) This is leading me to suspect sloppy gear lash as source of the slop. Yet not one of my gearboxes has any shims. Intuitively, I want to believe that removing shims would tighten the mesh resulting in less slop. If this is true and I can't decrease clearance by removing shims, I'm left with the assumption that the gears are worn. This particular unit always gave a strong impression that it was a low-use discbine. It's in nice shape, only used by a little old lady cutting ditches on her way to church on Sunday mornings. :) I say this only because I'm questioning the likelihood of gear wear because it is a pretty nice unit and it was running great with no heat on any of the turtles. My next step is to get a piece of 4140 hex shaft so I can perhaps rule out the shaft as the source. Appreciate learning of your opinion.
Hello, Do you have any bearing failing on the small gear? That will cause excessive gear lash. Also the inside of the small gear can wear terribly. Make sure to check the entire hex shaft. Pull it right out.
Did not find any bearing slop when using a prybar as you demonstrated. I'd also been checking each turtle last season for excessive heat and never found any hot gearboxes nor any squealing often associated with failing bearings. Seeing as the shaft appears to be fine, it sounds like my excessive lash might then be due to the inside of the gear itself being worn (the area that receives the shaft). I'll find the specs for a 5/8 shaft and put a micrometer on my existing shafts to see how far out they might actually be. This is the later model 5209 which doesn't have one long shaft but rather, several segmented shafts. I won't know about the other shafts until I work my way through all the gear boxes. "If" this is the case (wear inside the gear, not the shaft itself), I'm left wondering what the real risk might be if I keep the gear boxes fully greased and just live with it? It's not so bad as to create a timing issue. I'm only tearing into this as preventive maintenance. Thanks again for your time in responding. -- Steve in WI
@@solarharvestfarm955 now I see the problem the excess play is from the segment shaft. It is ok design when new but as the hours build the ends that connect inside the lower gear get worn. It wears the gear also. There have been two different lower gear styles I have seen. I am not sure if one is newer or older? But you want the gear that is hex all the way through. The other style is only part hex. From my experience with these machines. Take out those segments and Put in a 9’ hex. You be like new. Also you have to take all the gear boxes out to get the shafts out. There is no other way. That’s why I don’t like them. They where designed so you would only ruin one or two boxes of you hit something. But they are terrible to take apart. Or as you said. If they are not hitting and the bearings are good. Fill the boxes up and run it !!!
I am guessing bearing failure causing some binding? Or tight gear mesh? Possibly the knives are hitting each other? After you run it for 1/2 hour or so. Stop and put your hand on top of the disc. If one is really hot. It’s a good place to look.
Only plugging I have had ever is if it’s a wet sticky situation or the far end of the mower is pitched down hill in short hay. Check your knive height when on the ground. Also are your float springs doing there job?
@@chadsharrow9269 thanks, the springs are set great. The hat on the end is original its worn out. Going to replace that with an updated part. My curtain seems to be the problem. There is discbine repair shop near me that sell it by the foot $5.50. .09inch thick. 18inch wide. Going to get that also.
I found out what does the plugging up. That little dish on top of the turtle. Where the nut and bolt are. If those are worn it will not throw the grass to the rollers.
Liam Vaughan the whole thing? Take the far end apart first. 3/8 bolts. Then there are 1/2” carriage bolts on the flat spot behind the knife turtles. Then there are 2 1” bolts at the gear box to remove. Use a jack or fork machine the whole assembly will come out. If you mean just the hex shaft inside. Remove the far end. Take off the end cutter turtle and skid shoes. Remove the 1” bolts that go through the end piece and the last gear box. You will need to also remove the 1/2 carriage bolts on that part and lossen the next 2. Hopefully you have a 1 piece shaft and it will pull out. You can drill a hole in the shaft if you need to hook a chain to it and pull.
Not sure what you mean ? The bolts are flanged meaning they have a built in washer. That is the manufacturer bolt. You can also use a hex drive bolt. But it needs to be short enough to clear the spinning top. The bolt head may look tapered I guess as they get eaten by rot.
@@chadsharrow9269 Ive checked the manufactures bolts.... and the socket is tight when all the way down on the head of the bolt. But towards the top of the head there is a lot of play. Use a gauge and measure it. It rather obvious. Therefore.........with the lock tight they put on the bolts before installing .......the socket is forced up when trying to get the out. Thats why if you firmly tap on the head of the bolt the socket will stay on better. At least thats how my bolts came. New bolts or otherwise rusted. Also.......at times if the turtle drive shaft is slightly twisted........ you can just cut the knives shorter to get by. And also use the hand grinder to cut an area out of the turtles where it hits. Ive use a 1/8 piece of metal about 5 inches wide bent to fit up against the skid under the cutter bar. Have to take the shell off..and do it before its worn through. Weld the piece of metal on. Getting a lot more life out of that one shell !! Then grind the front edge smooth.
Hey chad, I am just wondering about reinstalling the tops to the gear boxes. I added grease and then when i go to reinstall the tops there seems to be a lot more play in the gears than there was before. Wondering how to fix that. Thanks!
@@chadsharrow9269 The gears look fine. There are 2 shims on each. I wasnt actually able to open one of them because the bolts were stripped and I was comparing the play to that one. And then i turned it i guess a bit too much and suddenly that one has a lot of play too. I am new to this whole business.
@@chadsharrow9269 I am not sure. Basically I can turn the tops left and right without making the others turn quite a bit more than I was able to before. I reinstalled the disc on one and it has zero play up and down but still turns lwft and right quite a bit. They all seems to act the same. Way more left and right play than before.
Dudey 12 sounds like your hex shaft is wore out or your gear hex. Are the knives going to hit each other? You can take the end off and pull the hex shaft out to be sure. If it is sectional pieces of shaft instead of one piece. That is part of your problem.
Yes you are correct. However I have found over the years. That changing the grease every year is not needed. Only if it has water in it. Or a bearing issue. With three mowers it was to time consuming. It leaks out through the small bearings anyway. So add as needed in the spring service. The shins are a constant battle.
Chad - Thanks for putting up this video. Just checked grease levels on my 5209 and all had sufficient levels however the farthest box had a deep green, slightly thinner grease. Suspect previous owner used a different brand grease, unless this color change might be a sign of liquifying lubricity. (?) Relevant or not, none of the gear boxes had shims. Main question is in regards to the play that exists between adjacent gear boxes. With top covers off, I can hold one drive gear firm while easily rocking the adjacent drive gear. Movement is up to a quarter inch rotation I'd guess. Best I can assume is that this slop exists where the hex shaft enters the drive gear. I don't have it apart to confirm this. Nor have I ever had new parts in front of me to confirm how tight this should be. Granted, it's probably only a concern when the torque is first applied (when engaging the PTO). However I'm hoping for an opinion as to longer term ramifications. I'm not a heavy user, cutting 40 acres just two times a season. On a different note: Do your main gear boxes on either of your 5209's run hot? Mine gets very hot to the touch after just an hour or so of work. Gear oil is fresh and full. Thanks for any input you may be able to provide. -- Steve
Ok so if you take out the hex shaft you will probably see significant wear on the shaft where each gear rides. The gear wears about .25 as much as the shaft.
In most cases if you have a super hot turtle. You have bearings going in the top or bottom. Or the gear lash is way to tight. It doesn’t matter if it’s 40 acres or 400 it’s no fun being broke down 👍
Good luck.
We have a 5209 and 2 of the gearboxes went out and when we opened all of them, 3 of them were dry and have bad bearings
Always fun. I did our 5212 this spring it took a minute to do every one. Good luck👍
That grease needs to be changed out. I use a ton of paper towels to scoop out the old grease and fill 1/2 way with number 0 grease. There are shims to adjust the gear mesh and it can't be too tight. Also use blue Loctite on everything with clean threads on the bolts and nuts. I use an 18 volt Milwaukee impact wrench and it makes short work of it.
Did you line up the top of the gear boxes from right to left facing the cutter head?
Also if you have wore out blade holders sometimes the blade can hit the 1/2 bolt behind the gearboxes. They can also hit the adjacent turtle when running. Get under it make all the knives go out like it is in use. And turn it by hand slow. Each turtle should be 90deg to the next. If it’s not. Maybe you need to realign the gearbox top.
Notice....... you can buy the drive shaft that drives the turtles ( mild hard steal ) for about 25 dollars. Lets not talk about the cost of a dealers price !!!!!!
Tapered heads on the cap bolts ???? To remove them if the heads are stripped..... heat them cherry read... careful not to cut them off. Reheat again cherry red. When they are cooled off.......take a hammer and tap on the heads firmly. Use only a 6 point socket Try........and if its still slack.......tap it again. If its too flattened.........tap the socket on the bolt head. It will come out !
This job is done much easier if you lift the entire hitch up. Put a block ( in front of the tires to prevent the machine from tipping entirely over " upside down " ) This way you can do the work standing up !
Yes I have done that also
EP (extreme pressure) grease. Did the newer red models cutter bars gear housings have better thread depth and placement into the meatier metal main body of that casting, unlike our old gray one seemed they added little lobes of metal into the cavity that were failure points for me.
Not sure I have seen parts from the grey ones but never worked on one. I guess the newest version is different than mine even.
Hey! Love the vid any tips for changing a bearing
Which bearing?
@@chadsharrow9269 the bearing on, the shaft in the disc gearbox
@@coleman251 start on the far end of the mower. Take the end piece off then the skid plate. Pull out the hex shaft drive. Remove hex bolts that hold gearbox and 1/2” bolts behind gearbox.
Once you get gearbox out and the top off make note which side of the gearbox the lower gear is facing it matters! A couple snap rings on the outside holding the bearings in.
Press the gear side into the gearbox.
Once the bearing is showing put two3/4” or so spacers under the bearing and on the gearbox so you can push/hit the hex pipe out of the bearing then the whole gear tube can come out. Then the bearing on the tooth side sometimes you can get it off in a vice with a bar or chisel or just cut it with a grinder and break inner race.
Take not of all the spacers on either side of the bearings when removing.
Have fun 😀
Hey Chad
Moving back to Eastern North Carolina to farm mostly raising livestock. Looking at New Idea equipment a NI discbine 5212/5312 and round baler 4865/45. What would your advise be? Just want to get started as cheap as possible.
Kevin
I would not advise the 5212 unless you have large roads and fields. It is not a center pull so it doesn’t fold up enough to be safe on the road. And are a bit cumbersome to move around. However you can get them cheaper because of this. Round balers I don’t know much about. I have a gallignani silage baler. Thats the only one I know about. It uses steel rolls no belts. And has a cutter head on the intake paid around 6k for it 8 years ago.
Where's the best place to get shafts for these? I have 3 5408 and the dealer shafts are poor quality.
Does it matter if you start from left > right when re centering hubs?
Yes you need to start from the output side. Technically the first gear box is supposed to lead by just a little bit. But unless everything is brand new and lash is perfect it really doesn’t matter. Just make sure they are square with each other from right to left facing the cutter head.
Go to a local steel supplier. 5/8 hex shaft. 4140.
Hello again Chad: Finally got to taking things apart. Was expecting to see visual wear on the hex shaft ends but the first segment looks clean and sharp. (I have a segmented drive shaft.) Without yet having a fresh sample of a 5/8 hex shaft for comparison, I don't know how tight that shaft should fit within the gear. There's a very slight amount of movement when I rock the shaft back and forth. Yet prior to disassembly, the two gearboxes farthest from the main drive (right side when standing behind the discbine) allowed a fair amount of movement before one gearbox finally caused the adjacent gearbox to move. (I'd guess perhaps 5 to 10 degrees movement.) This is leading me to suspect sloppy gear lash as source of the slop. Yet not one of my gearboxes has any shims. Intuitively, I want to believe that removing shims would tighten the mesh resulting in less slop. If this is true and I can't decrease clearance by removing shims, I'm left with the assumption that the gears are worn. This particular unit always gave a strong impression that it was a low-use discbine. It's in nice shape, only used by a little old lady cutting ditches on her way to church on Sunday mornings. :)
I say this only because I'm questioning the likelihood of gear wear because it is a pretty nice unit and it was running great with no heat on any of the turtles. My next step is to get a piece of 4140 hex shaft so I can perhaps rule out the shaft as the source. Appreciate learning of your opinion.
Hello,
Do you have any bearing failing on the small gear? That will cause excessive gear lash. Also the inside of the small gear can wear terribly. Make sure to check the entire hex shaft. Pull it right out.
Did not find any bearing slop when using a prybar as you demonstrated. I'd also been checking each turtle last season for excessive heat and never found any hot gearboxes nor any squealing often associated with failing bearings. Seeing as the shaft appears to be fine, it sounds like my excessive lash might then be due to the inside of the gear itself being worn (the area that receives the shaft). I'll find the specs for a 5/8 shaft and put a micrometer on my existing shafts to see how far out they might actually be. This is the later model 5209 which doesn't have one long shaft but rather, several segmented shafts. I won't know about the other shafts until I work my way through all the gear boxes. "If" this is the case (wear inside the gear, not the shaft itself), I'm left wondering what the real risk might be if I keep the gear boxes fully greased and just live with it? It's not so bad as to create a timing issue. I'm only tearing into this as preventive maintenance. Thanks again for your time in responding. -- Steve in WI
@@solarharvestfarm955 now I see the problem the excess play is from the segment shaft. It is ok design when new but as the hours build the ends that connect inside the lower gear get worn. It wears the gear also. There have been two different lower gear styles I have seen. I am not sure if one is newer or older? But you want the gear that is hex all the way through. The other style is only part hex. From my experience with these machines. Take out those segments and Put in a 9’ hex. You be like new. Also you have to take all the gear boxes out to get the shafts out. There is no other way. That’s why I don’t like them. They where designed so you would only ruin one or two boxes of you hit something. But they are terrible to take apart. Or as you said. If they are not hitting and the bearings are good. Fill the boxes up and run it !!!
Hey Chad I’ve got a 5408 new idea disc mower and the hex shaped shaft keeps breaking do you know what could be the cause?
I am guessing bearing failure causing some binding? Or tight gear mesh? Possibly the knives are hitting each other? After you run it for 1/2 hour or so. Stop and put your hand on top of the disc. If one is really hot. It’s a good place to look.
On the 5212. Have encountered any plugging on the far end (opposite of hitch) in thick grass/alfalfa?
Only plugging I have had ever is if it’s a wet sticky situation or the far end of the mower is pitched down hill in short hay.
Check your knive height when on the ground. Also are your float springs doing there job?
@@chadsharrow9269 thanks, the springs are set great. The hat on the end is original its worn out. Going to replace that with an updated part. My curtain seems to be the problem. There is discbine repair shop near me that sell it by the foot $5.50. .09inch thick. 18inch wide. Going to get that also.
I found out what does the plugging up. That little dish on top of the turtle. Where the nut and bolt are. If those are worn it will not throw the grass to the rollers.
hi chad i just bout a discbind 5209 can u run 80/90 gear lube in the gear boxes under the turtles i can find the grease ur talking about
No you cannot run oil
There are no seals to keep it in the gear box it will just run out the bearing and the top cover. It’s a ep 0 grease.
how do you remove the cutter bar
Liam Vaughan the whole thing?
Take the far end apart first. 3/8 bolts. Then there are 1/2” carriage bolts on the flat spot behind the knife turtles. Then there are 2 1” bolts at the gear box to remove. Use a jack or fork machine the whole assembly will come out. If you mean just the hex shaft inside. Remove the far end. Take off the end cutter turtle and skid shoes. Remove the 1” bolts that go through the end piece and the last gear box. You will need to also remove the 1/2 carriage bolts on that part and lossen the next 2. Hopefully you have a 1 piece shaft and it will pull out. You can drill a hole in the shaft if you need to hook a chain to it and pull.
So........what was the reason for all the bolts heads to be tapered ? The socket rides up on the bolts . Then problems begin !
Not sure what you mean ?
The bolts are flanged meaning they have a built in washer. That is the manufacturer bolt. You can also use a hex drive bolt. But it needs to be short enough to clear the spinning top. The bolt head may look tapered I guess as they get eaten by rot.
@@chadsharrow9269 Ive checked the manufactures bolts.... and the socket is tight when all the way down on the head of the bolt. But towards the top of the head there is a lot of play. Use a gauge and measure it. It rather obvious. Therefore.........with the lock tight they put on the bolts before installing .......the socket is forced up when trying to get the out.
Thats why if you firmly tap on the head of the bolt the socket will stay on better. At least thats how my bolts came. New bolts or otherwise rusted.
Also.......at times if the turtle drive shaft is slightly twisted........ you can just cut the knives shorter to get by. And also use the hand grinder to cut an area out of the turtles where it hits.
Ive use a 1/8 piece of metal about 5 inches wide bent to fit up against the skid under the cutter bar. Have to take the shell off..and do it before its worn through. Weld the piece of metal on. Getting a lot more life out of that one shell !! Then grind the front edge smooth.
Hey chad,
I am just wondering about reinstalling the tops to the gear boxes. I added grease and then when i go to reinstall the tops there seems to be a lot more play in the gears than there was before. Wondering how to fix that.
Thanks!
Dudley,
Adding grease should not change anything. How many shims are on each cover? Are your pinion gear bearings ok?
@@chadsharrow9269
The gears look fine. There are 2 shims on each. I wasnt actually able to open one of them because the bolts were stripped and I was comparing the play to that one. And then i turned it i guess a bit too much and suddenly that one has a lot of play too.
I am new to this whole business.
Dudey 12 is it gear lash? Or is the pinion moving on the hex shaft ?
@@chadsharrow9269
I am not sure. Basically I can turn the tops left and right without making the others turn quite a bit more than I was able to before. I reinstalled the disc on one and it has zero play up and down but still turns lwft and right quite a bit.
They all seems to act the same. Way more left and right play than before.
Dudey 12 sounds like your hex shaft is wore out or your gear hex. Are the knives going to hit each other?
You can take the end off and pull the hex shaft out to be sure. If it is sectional pieces of shaft instead of one piece. That is part of your problem.
No way !!
Time for a Kuhn Chad.
cant