This is an amazing podcast. The little D10 performs better from a rhythmic point of view on the Cycles on the desktop file. The SMSL is coloured and faulty from the rhythmic point of view. The rhythm is a big part of the musicality of audio equipment. This is what I hear.
Thanks for your very kind words. And thanks for sharing your findings too. A sense of rhythm is indeed very important. I will pick up on that in Part 2. Coming in October
I also think that your emotional state is a key factor in what you hear in the music and your enjoyment of it. If you are relaxed and in the mood to allow the music to flow over you, it will.
Interesting topic! Dacs sound differences are indeed sometime very small… but the rest of the chain and the attention put in listening is crucial! For myself, in a medium revealing system (Lintons and SMSL VMV A1) I tested the ess in a Primare SC15 versus my mojo 2…. And oh boy. The mojo 2 is so much more natural in the midrange… very easy to ear. Thanks for the discussion!
As a long-suffering music listener, I realised that there is no perfect solution to audio reproduction as everyone has a subjective view of what music should sound like. Every room is a complex environment to start with, and so forth, and this is especially true when higher end products are concerned, there is no definitive measure of the 'sound' other then the numbers and the opinions of others in often, very different circumstances, my approach is simply, listen in your specific system/room for a while and if it is more enjoyable than previously, only then should you consider the upgrade, if the differences are worthwhile.
Good afternoon, just wanted to thank you for your outstanding video where you managed to eloquently explicate your experience with both DACs. I was on the fence for some time and upon watching your video, opted for the Topping d90 III. Enjoying some good ole music right now. Thank you very much again.
Hello Sir, great topic. Here is my set up , how i listen to music at the moment. I have 2 ohms , 8 inch speakers in transmission line 1.2 meters high boxes. Those speakers are driven with NAD 712 stereo reciever, which is capable to drive those speakers at lower ohm regime. When i am listening to a CD i use older Marantz 16 bit linear CD player as transport and coaxial output to DAC SMSL SU-1 , basic DAC from smsl family. It have AKM chip. Also, from PC when i want to listen to high res music files , i am listening from PC via voicemeeter DSP as digital preamp thru asio option to avoid windows audio drivers. From usb connection to SMSL su-1 DAC, Dac analog outputs goes directly to main in input (directly to amplifier without its preamp) of NAD 712 reciever. Voicemeeter DSP is for volume control. The sound is amazing from both sources.
Listening to your Sugden DAC impressed me the most while the D90III was the least impressive. Great presentation and analytics. Keep up the great work sir.
I liked the D90III much more than the SMSL. The Topping D10B also very good. Can't say if its the sonic characteristic or how well the system works/implementation, but ESS seems to sound a bit livelier than AKM but I generally like both. I have a Topping d70s an a Aune x18th with Sparkos and its linear PS. The higher end models within the Topping line versus lower seemingly give more resolution and separation from my experience.
Great presentation. Probably the best discussion of modern DACs I have heard. In addition to the excellent presentation, I resonate with your audio preferences and priorities.
Even with all of the fidelity and compression problems inherent to a CZcams video, with a good set of Sennheisers, I could hear the difference. Your analysis was spot on (to my ears anyway). Surprised how good the D10 sounded. Very similar to the D90, but not as wide or deep. The D90 had just that little bit extra detail and decay. The Sugden and SMSL sound veiled in comparison. Thank you for this extremely educational video.
Very interesting topic I hardly can wait to see what you come up with in comparing the Topping D10B to the others more expensive dac's. I have a Topping D10, it performed very so audibly better in my system when I bypassed the power source from the computer by replacing it with iFi audio's iDefender and their iPower power supply I have also a linear 5v power supply that works very well too, it made the dac sound impressively better.
Hi thanks for your kind comment. If you go to our webshop, you can download to the WAV master files from the comparison between the D10B and the D90 Mklll. Enjoy!
I agree DACs do sound different, however my suspicion has always been that this is due to the analogue section rather than the digital section. Anyway, thanks for another insightful and interesting video.
@@PearlAcoustics I agree with this 100% .. if you have a dac that produces a small negative current output and you need to trans impedance amplifier to start to bring that analog signal up to line level, that seems to be a most critical point, as this is usually done with virtual ground on an op amp front end. The current source needs to be converted to an output voltage through the feedback resistance on the inverting input. Seems like a tall order before we even consider power supplies, dac clocking, et cetera.
Thanks for this entertaining video, you are a long time audiophile and it's so obvious. What I can tell is your trusted Sugden is the best of all here,period! It just let you enjoy the music without tension or unnecessary attention to minor details It's what I hear on my Modi multibit dac, DarkVoice tube amp and Sennheiser HD660S2, youtube is fine, I can clearly hear everything
I have a Schiit Modi 3 with a ESS and a Modi 3 with an AKM. You'd think they'd sound the same but there is a slight difference. To me most DACs sound very similar till you get past the $500 range. Friend has the same setup as me but with a Bifrost. Blows my system away. Better soundstage, height, width and bass is more well defined and digs deeper. The fact is even our cheaper DACs now are pretty amazing compared to 20 years ago. One day hopefully I can upgrade but for now my Modis are doing the job.
I still listen to my music using Def tech BP-10 speakers (from late 90's) hooked up to Yamaha integrated amp using burr brown 16bit/48 Hz converter, hooked up to Amazon music non compressed music. I cant find a diff in music quality to ultra high end and my 3K set up. I feel so blessed that I enjoy music and not tech. I feel sorry for the folks who can hear diff between DACs.
Good Job! Yes, only the very critical listener can easily spot subtle differences. I do have the Topping D10s, and the Topping E70 Velvet. When you do a direct compare you can easily tell that the D10s is a lot more brittle than the E70 Velvet. The Velvet carries more weight to the audio.
yes that's been my experience as well, but when you're comparing two DAC's, and one cost four times the other, it's much easier to tell the difference .. you start comparing different dacs that are in the $800-$900 range, it's going be harder to decide which one you like better, but when when when the dac cost at least 2x or 3x or more of another, than you're going to notice sonic quality differences much more readily, especially between lower prices, as in your $100 to $400 example.
I tried it in three systems, earbuds, a good desktop system with an Aiyima A07 with Meridian DAC and Arcam speakers and a proper multi thousand system. With the earbuds, there was very little difference. With the Aiyima, some extremely small differences. Of the Chinese DACs I preferred the Topping D90 but the Sugden was more natural and a clear step above. On the full hifi system, I had them in the same order but with the Sugden very much further ahead and without CZcams processing, I would expect it to be more so. The full system I'm using is very sensitive to changes in DAC. This is roughly what I would have expected. In cheaper systems (which can be perfectly good and fulfil what the user needs), I wouldn't expect a worthwhile difference. Whether people report a difference is based more on the rest of the system that they're listening to. I also have a classic mostly 1960's system where the differences between DACs is generally minimal. The thing that I would do with that D10 though is look at somehow filtering the power via the USB.
Hi Hector, thanks for sharing your findings. If you ever get the time, try again with the download files. CZcams compression seems to favour the Sugden… but as you say, the differences are minimal. But once heard, hard to un- hear. Thanks again. Harley
Just an F.Y.I. I have a Topping D10s hooked up to my notebook. Then I use an optical cable (280 individual strands of glass) from the D10s optical output to my Topping E70 Velvet. This is my sole purpose of having the D10s, and why I purchased it in the first place. Works great for that purpose!
I have the Denafrips Venus, R2R Dac and the New Ontech Dac 07, Burr Brown from Denmark…both going into the same streamer and both into the same Preamp, the preamp going to the First Watt SIT-4 amp,so A/B listening is easy with the Pass remote…there is a night and day difference…the Venus is way more aggressive and the New Ontech with the Burr Brown is more mellow without loosing any details in my Volti audio horn speakers… Side note…the SIT-4 is the most amazing sounding amp I have ever had…with the pass labs preamp they would totally make the Sibelius speakers sing like no other amp…you would never use anything else …
Hi Charles. Thanks for your interesting comment. My colleague Ajay has a Sit-4 in his showroom in London, it’s the one amp I think he will never part with. Snd you’re right, the combination with the Sibelius is excellent, he has the Pass pre too. We use the combination at HiFi shows sometimes.
@@PearlAcoustics yes Harley, I am a fan of Nelson Pass, this is his best amp with my very efficient speakers, I was using the Pass XA-25 amp which I love too but this SIT-4 oh my is just so sweet sounding….I went from Klipsch Heritage speakers to Volti audio speakers, together with the SIT-4 it’s an endgame combination…I have had the Sit-4 for a month and it amazes me every day…
Interesting… I have the Buchardt A10 powered monitor (from Denmark) and they come with dsp and a Burr Brown internal Dac. This Dac sounds really smooth and detailed as well …
Great review again 👍. Since the start audiosciensereview a lot of attention is put into good test results. For that's they are below hearing threshold nowadays. I also agree that the output stage has the biggest effect on the sound from a DAC. Like what's the impact on different out/input impedances (mis)match?
As usual an insightful video. I have a Denon receiver and a Marantz player of recent manufacture. They both have the same DAC - akm 4490 - as far as I can gather from the internet. Yet, the Marantz sounds slightly clearer and crisper than the Denon which appears a tad congested. This is far from a night and day difference. It is rather subtle. I do not know if this actually is the case or my ears are playing truant. I do confess to having an incurable problem with my ears.
Thanks for your kind appreciation. If you hear differences, then there probably is, meaning - it’s a bit like cars, when you’ve been driving the same car for years and years, you get to know every noise and quirk, I feel the same is true for hifi equipment and when you swap them out, you can detect even the slightest change, whereas a visitor who does not know your system and room, half as good as you do, may struggle to hear what you hear. As for your ears, well mine are getting on for 70 years old now and they are certainly nothing like they used to be. But I can still enjoy music and strangely, can hear even the subtlest differences in equipment set ups and master recordings, which my colleagues are staggered by. What I can’t hear, I can’t hear and that’s fine! 😂
Excellent and comprehensive review! Very much appreciate and must thank you for getting into the weeds on this type of discussion. Listening deeply is in itself a worthwhile practice, and can actually enhance one's overall experience if done so. Ive had some great and interesting dacs. All had distinctly different sounds and tonal characteristics: Schitt Modi, Massdrop r2r, Topping D70s MQA (akm dac), and a very unique ess design with the Okto Research dac 8 stereo - which is really wonderful and could not imagine not having in my system. But have to say, now I want that Sugden too! 🙏
I am - as an engeneer - always a bit sceptical when I see audiophiles speaking about their technical perceptions. Your video however was straight to the point - congrats. I completely understand that the differences between AKM and ESS are subtle at best. The chip designs may be quite different but the conversion process follows accepted rules. I do not fully concur to your assessment that the chip has little influence to the sound. Technically it has the same "chance" to contribute to a sound difference than every discrete component. In the price class of 1000$ I expect the best components (like op-amps) anyhow. I think the reason for having the DA chip twice is just the fear of cross talk on the analogue section. On the digital side there is no negative impact to be expected. Personally, I have listened to ESS and AKM DACs without a clear winner. For me, AKM was a bit more detailed. The DACs however had been in the 500 Euro class and there it is easily possible that OP-Amps change the picture or slight production deviations. I could easily live with ESS as well. Currently I am testing two DACs i bought (SMSL SU-1 for 80 Euro and Topping E70 velvet for 480 Euro). It is a bit frustrating that the differences between those DACs is so minimal. My general perception is that you have to put your money on the analogue components. I personally spent 65% on the loudspeakers, 25% on the integrated amplifier and 10% on the DAC. The streamer itself is quite basic but it had in the limited tests I did no influence on the sound. Jitter etc. is no problem any more these days.
Thank you for your kind appreciation. And thanks too for your excellent contribution to the topic. I especially like your reasoning on how you divide your budget across components. Enjoy the music.
I am a old school pro sound engineer, never took audiophiles seriously and assumed that most DACs are equal with minor EQ/dynamic differences in conversion…something that audiophiles can describe for hours with fancy language… in the pro audio world, lots of engineers buy analog expensive gear based on the flaws in the circuit and the non-linear harmonic distortion they add…ultimately I am seeking the most honest, truthful DAC that tells the truth and nothing but the truth with zero sugar coating….thank you for for this review….
Hi, join the club! The holy grail. The only problem is, when you find it and place it in a domestic environment, you might be disappointed to discover that bitcoins not sound nice, and you’ll need to make a correction somewhere in the chain! Enjoy the music.
In my experience the difference between the anti-aliasing filters is clearly audible and ore important than the DAC. Not using the standard filter at 44.1/48 16 bit changes the tonal balance of a recording. At HighRes, long FIR-Filters with optimization on no pre-ringing can sound better. Remains the question which setting was used for mastering, what is not noted on any release.
I really like the way you take the time to talk about this, and bring your musical mind and soul. Would be interested how a r2r dac will perform in your setup with the Sibelius, according to you.
The speakers and room would have more effect than any dac. Get the best speaker you can get. And set them up correctly. I have recently been messing with mine by adding some foam to the sharp edges around the tweeter. Well boy did that make an impact. Amir will show in his measurements that DACs are transparent.
In your setup I liked the Topping the best. It had a little bit more crispiness than the SMSL. The Sugden didn't impress me at all. However the Topping might be too revealing for the chain I'm currently looking for a DAC, consisting of a Violectric DHA V226 and the Audeze LCD-XC. The two sound great via my NAD C510 (PC) and my Musical Fidelity M6s (Main System), but I want a smaller form factor. So your video was very welcome and informative. But it put another two DACs on my radar. Arrgh. 😄
A few reviewers have mentioned the soundstage and body of the D90 III being slightly curtailed in comparsion to others, even heard that some prefer the Topping D70 as it has more body, depth of image and a better display. I do want to try one out at some point, but they also cross into the headphone dac/pre price points, and some of those seem to get great paper specs too. Pretty torn as my CD transport for upstairs has failed, the second hand costs and repair costs are not far off the cost of a CA CXC transport, making the CX100 an interesting item, yet part of me is screaming out Kali and a topping into the PC job done. Problem is I still enjoy ancient equipment.
Thanks for your comment. Like all these things, listening in the room, is the most important thing. (I like older equipment too - I am a bit nostalgic that way) ;-)
Ive come to enjoy the ESS Dac chip "sound". When i first heard a Oppo BDP 105 which sported the highest end early implementation of the chip and compared it to my CS dac'd Marantz player i ended up finding the Oppo clean but unmusical (sense of timing was so bad music almost stopped making sense) and stuck with the Marantz. Then i upgraded the Marantz to a Luxman D06 which was better alround. Then one day i bought an Audiolab M Dac+ for a second system and again at first I felt it sounded off. So i waited. And i ran it in properly, something i maybe didnt do with the Oppo. And after a while of waiting more i realised it wasnt bad at all. And then i placed it into my big system and did some quick A/B switching between the Luxman and the Audiolab (a 10x price difference btw!) and blow me down did the Audiolab sound cleaner, more expansive and just that bit better still. I couldnt believe it, so i sold my Luxman and enjoyed the money from that. Fast forward abit and ive sold the Audiolab after it broke and i fancied a change and ive ended up with a Marantz SA-12SE as my digital hub which i love. Crucially, it play the 100's of DSD discs ive got from Mofi/AP/Universal Japan et al but it also sounds great with RB discs. In the second system however, lies the biggest bargains ive ever heard in hifi and there lies a combo of the Project PreBox S2 Digital (2x ESS9038Q2M's) into a Musical Fidelity M2Si (wow, and at the price how!?) and ending with Focal Chora 806 (wait, a budget speaker CAN do detail and smoothness and not just one or the other!? And THAT dimensionality too!?). For what i think was a total outlay of about £1400 i can honestly say the law of diminishing returns is very alive and well in 2024 and id urge anyone to try this setup in any environment and feel its not just about perfectly balanced. I do feel the little Project S2 dac is a star performer on its own too, especially since pairing with the Accu box battery psu. I honestly think i will get another one for the big system just because its so special. So ive come full circle from initally hating the ESS sound, to being passive towards it to being in love with it!! HIFI EH!
Thanks for sharing your back story. Indeed HiFI can take you all over the place, finally ending up back where one almost started - so as to speak! Enjoy
Thanks for the great review. I have the 'original' Topping D90 (with AKM) and the Topping D90 MKIII. I have downloaded your files and I am anxious to here if there are any differences between the both Toppings I have.
The D90 vs the D10 i personally thought was the most interesting comparison. Its a lot closer than i expected but I did hear a difference. I can see why if someone didn't know what to listen for they would see every dac costing more than the D10 as a waste of money. I have the D10s connected to stax. I demo all my new music there first before i listen with my Maggies. I keep delaying buying the D90. Everytime I'm about to buy it they make a new version 😂
Very interesting comparison Harley. Re the “50 ways to kill your lover”, drum section. I use another track of theirs “The Boxer” for the same reasons. There’s a heavy drum “BOOM” after the “La La La”’s that was recorded in the lift shift! It’s very distinctive and great for testing/comparing systems out🎵🎶🎵
Which DAC would you recommend for monitoring purpose only for mixing / mastering ? Meaning I don’t have any hardware and don’t need AD, just DA, for critical listening on headphones, that I could pair with an amp. I was thinking about Lynx Hilo but it also does AD and I don’t need that ( it has a good headphone circuit built in tho ) Topping has great measurements but it’s made on sine waves, not complex music, and they don’t sound very realistic to me. Thanks 🙏
Thanks for the nice review! Having owned a few dozen DAC’s I can say that the main difference between entry level and state of the art is stage depth, timbre, instrument separation and impulse response. Basically the same criteria as for amplifiers for instance. Signal to noise ratio and distortion play a lesser role as they meet minimum requirements for all products these days. Oddly enough most measurements are only mentioning these…
I’m going to download the files and see what differences I may be able to detect. Currently I am leaning more toward an R2R ladder DAC to replace my current ESS-based component. The two that interest me the most are the Audio GD R7-HE and the Musician Taurus, primarily because I want an I2S connection that will enable me to use my disc player as a transport. The Audio GD has internal power regeneration but the Musician features *two* I2S inputs, which in my setup might be a plus.
Even with the lousy CZcams sound quality I can hear quite big differences and my preference is the Sugden. It seems the music has more oohmpf and more body. The Topping and SMSL can't really please me. Could be my ears are getting older and more sensitive to high frequencies but the mid range in the Sugden is superior.
Or maybe it is the CZcams sound quality?😄 I downloaded the original uncompressed files from the Pearl Acoustics site and listened to them over my own D90 and IMO the harshnesh/sharpness you here has more to do with the CZcams quality than with the D90. If you really want to hear it download those files yourself. You can maybe here differences on CZcams, but you can't here the actual sound quality. CZcams is not a good measuring stick.
Dear Harley, thanks for another great video with a hot topic well explained and commented with the necessary nuance. The Sugden really stands out as far as I am concerned. But: why did you record through your speakers - microphone, etc? Why not simply hook the output of, the DACs directly to your recorder? Keep more of these videos coming! Regards from Hasselt.
Hi Johan…. Thanks for your generous remarks, I am so pleased you appreciate the way I make these videos. With regards to your question. It’s true it would make more technical sense but I thought it would be more fun / realistic to make a recording in the room from the loudspeakers. Both the Sibelius and the Neumann’s are very revealing, so I wanted the viewer to hear what I hear in my listening situations. The weakest link (by a long way) was the room microphone array. I do not use my professional set up, as it is way too much work. Having said that, I agree it would be more scientific the way you suggest and could be a useful approach for serious comparisons.
@@PearlAcoustics Hello again Harley, Just bought the album (flac download) Cycles by Joris Vanvinckenroye from Bandcamp. I love solo bass and cello music, and this track sounded really very good. Thanks for the tip!
If the differences heard are not placebo, a microphone will record these differences, do you see these difference in the recorded sound from the microphone ?
Thanks for your question. I can detect them, but the best answer I can offer is to download the WAV files and listen on your system. Having said that, For serious comparison one needs to be actually in the room because microphones have a very different polar response than our ears and I did not use my professional studio recording equipment for this, as it was only for fun and to get a basic idea. I hope this helps?
We hear a lot about R2R ladder DAC. I would have liked your point of view. I am using the DAC in my Moon headphone amplifier with good results. Thanks for this video.
@@mediascapes2011 - ah I see there has been a misunderstanding here… what I meant was - I hope that that is a positive thing! Meaning that you see Swiss Merson and Daniel Fauchiger in a positive light. 😉 I don’t know and tried to find something in them but my Google searches led to nothing, I must have done something wrong?
Hi thanks for your comnent. I wonder gave you watched the full video? Because I give you the opportunity to download the recorded tests and listen to them in your system and decide if you can hear any differences? They are taken from the microphones output, without any mastering etc. Just adjusted so that each one is within, 0,5db the same volume.
@@bluelithium9808 indeed, things can go too far… but surely the hobby is about listening to music and enjoying discovering new ways of bringing the recording experience into the home? In any case, thanks for your comment
Topping was more lively than the SMSL, I preferred it, but the Sugden was better, maybe less detail, but so much more air and space. The little topping sounded a bit compressed compared to the big one.
@@PearlAcoustics Over CZcams as I was at work ..... but with headphones and a pretty detailed dongle dac. Difference was already pretty clear to me, even though the headphones aren't anything special. I guess all of them will sound a lot better using the .wav's with better gear.
@@PearlAcoustics now listened to the wav's Clear differences. The SMSL and de Sugden are more musical than the Topping, also more set back in the soundstage, especially the SMSL. The SMSL has better detail retrieval dan the Sugden and a more focussed center image. The Topping is a bit more lively but also the most forward one, also better focus and detail than Sugden. I think the main difference between topping and smsl is the sound stage depth (deeper with SMSL) and musicality (more so on smsl). So now I tend to prefer the smsl. The headphones I used before have rolled of highs, so there the Topping came out first. It is al a question of synergy I guess.
Interesting and thanks for shared. If you want to listen for a long time, SABRE is the right choice. and if you want to do a presentation, the choice is AKM with an initial impression that is very open but tired of listening for a long time. The R2R DAC which is said to be better is doubtful about how to get resistors with such small tolerances and matched so many for mass products. everything has distortion but the choice is up to each individual's ears, pleasant hatmonic distortion like the old DAC with 16bit 44.1Khz non over sampling and IV tubes for something that feels analog. It all depends on individual taste and not just measurement results because the general human ear is limited to distinguishing details. Ed
I love the video's you make. Thank you for posting such interesting topics. I've been using an SMSL SU-10 Dac with two ES9038PRO DAC chips inside it. I would be interested to see what you think of that one compared with the Topping D90 since the same brand of chips are used.
@@PearlAcoustics I have the SMSL -10 hooked up through a Decware Zbit to a Mapletree audio tube pre amp going to the Frankenstein 300B stereo amp to the Monitor audio platinum speakers.
Everyone says they sound the same. But they don't, particularly when you are using a dongle and listening to the output from the on-chip amp. If you can't hear it, good. You dont need to buy expensive gear. It will all sound the same. I like a pre fire akm, or a wolfson.
@00:52 "I can hear differences between DACs" Given halfway recent and decent DACs, prove that statement in a serious blind test, level matched and whatnot, and become famous.
Charming as always Mr " LoveGroove" 😊 Personally, I'm left cold by SINAD comparisons for audio devices - sorry Amir. These measurements may be useful to engineers and Ai/robot listeners.... On the other ear, we humans want to be moved by the ineffable magic and MAJESTY of Music! Therefore we turn to (poorer measuring) devices like ladder dacs and valve preamps for their EMOTIONALLY satisfying presentation. Like you Harley, I listen for authentic SOUNDING acoustic instruments in acoustic spaces. Therefore, thanks for the music recommended . A Beethoven fan, l very much enjoyed the lively Anima Eterna rendition of the 5th. Good perspective and hall acoustic. Will add the whole cycle of symphonies to my playlist. I'll be listening to your other suggestions soon. Cheerio! 🎶😎🎶
I listened through my balanced SS Preamp last night. Just wonderful! I'm looking forward to the even more holographic & trippy presentation of my Valve preamp. Quote: "Here is a superb new set of the most famous symphonies in our musical culture, brilliantly played on period instruments. Jos van Immerseel and his highly skilled Flanders-based orchestra Anima Eterna play at modern pitch (A=440), which they have established was done in Beethoven’s Vienna. As the composer had to make do with motley collections of amateurs and professionals and couldn’t hear a thing after about 1817, this is better than anything he experienced. Van Immerseel’s interpretations are exciting but always musical. " (The Observer Daily Mail). That makes you appreciate a good recording played over a decent stereo all the more! 🎵🎶😀👍🎶🎵
Great overview and the sample tracks you put up are really useful. My impression was that the SMSL and Sugden were fairly similar, with the D90 being somewhat more analytical and forward with the vocals and treble while having a touch more detail and quantity of sub bass. If I owned the D90 I'd probably be using the valve/tube setting more often than not. Having said all that, the more I listened and compared the less obvious the differences became. Wonder what my impressions would be if I was able to do a blind listening test.
I would like to hear Amir and you discuss DACs and other equipment. You would certainly disagree on some things but most likely agree more often. You are both gentlemen, so I think you'd get along fine.
While I desire both I place musicality above detail and resolution. So implementation aside, AKM's sound signature is for me a bit more appealing than the ESS sound signature. I have yet to compare either to an r2r DAC of comparable quality. The Holo Audio Cyan 2 would be my choice for comparison to the Topping and SMSL. Thanks very much for the review and especially the sound samples.
@@r423sdex an umbrella term for when acoustic music and the human voice sounds exactly 'right'. Our ears are 'calibrated' to recognize the sound of the human voice and we intuitively recognize when real world acoustic instruments sound 'off'. No such standard of comparison exists with electronic instruments, which is why they are unsuitable for evaluating audio equipment's musicality.
Topping D90 is warmer sounding. Bass has more presence and I noticed piano notes that weren’t there with the other DAC’s🎵🎶 Wirth hundreds more than the D10? Totally depends on your budget but I could easily live with the D10
@@PearlAcoustics a part of the Wiki Text.... Mergenthaler is a Luxembourg musician who shares the same theme. The cello under his arm, a simple chair and a small battery of speakers in a semicircle with a few electronic devices, all within reach of the tips of his shoes - this is his orchestra: "L'Orchestre c'est moi". He integrates his playing life into the voices, which were initially recorded one above the other, using sensitive loop technology. And by communicating with himself in this way, he increases the musical intensity of his instrument in a multiphonic concert dance to an almost magma-like primal form." .... In German we say "nicht grün sein". It says Belgians and the Luxembourgers are not the best friends.
Thanks for this video. The ability to do side-by-side comparisons is illustrative and entertaining. Are the S.M.S.L and Topping run directly to the amplifier or through the analog inputs of the Sugden for the recordings? I think I agree with your assessment of the S.M.S.L vs. Topping. To me, the Sugden DAC was the hands down winner, but I wonder if the Sugden is benefiting from a more robust output stage as part of a full preamplifier. Obviously this comparison will be colored by whatever DAC we're using to listen; I have an AudioQuest Dragonfly Red going into a cheap no-name Class D amp into KEF Q100s, but the results held with the DragonFly going directly into Sony MDR-7506 headphones, and when using the same headphone set up to evaluate the uncompressed files from your website. The Sugden may have softened the leading edges, but sounded more like a real bass in a real room -- especially on the harmonics of the higher register later in the excerpt -- and more like a real voice singing in a venue. I see on Sugden's website that their DAC is a NOS design with no digital filtering. I assume that means it's an R2R design? If I understand the different DAC designs correctly, that would mean the Sugden likely has a perfect impulse response, and that time domain behavior seems to be why some people prefer R2R designs vs. the pre- and/or post-ringing found on delta-sigma designs with filters. I've always been intrigued about the differences after reading John Darko and Herb Reichert and others, but it seems your little video and file downloads allowed an opportunity to get part way to an audition myself, tempered by all my listening coming through the AQ Dragonfly. Since I could hear a difference even in these circumstances, I imagine getting an R2R DAC into my set up would have even more of an audible difference. Is the logical conclusion that the only way to preserve the time- and phase-correct/coherent properties of your Sibelius loudspeakers with a digital system is to use a R2R DAC?
Thanks for you appreciation and interesting comment. The SMSL and the Topping D90 mk3 were both fed into the Topping 90 Preamplifier. (Which is very clean). For The Sugden comparison I used the Sugden Dac through the Sugden’s pre-amplifier, to give a better understanding of the Sugden sound. I hope that helps? I don’t think any of the Dac’s have any issue with timing or phasing… they are all great performers. I think the main differences are in their output stages. But many of our customers swear by Sugden, but I like a variety of set ups. Depending on my mood! Best wishes, Harley
@@PearlAcoustics I played the downloaded clips on my main system -- Node 2i, Decware SE84, and 10" full-range drivers (Audio Nirvana) in a bass reflex cabinet. With just 30 seconds of listening to the "Cycles" track my wife, without having any idea what we were listening to or why, came to the same conclusions as me: the Topping sounded hard, etched, and glaring while the Sugden sounded like music. She actually thought they were two different recordings. It's a pretty interesting idea to be able to parse the differences between two DACs using a streaming DAC that's a half or quarter the price of the DACs in the comparison. You mentioned you have a Node there in the listening room as well. How would you compare its sound to the Topping or Sugden in your room?
@@thethanimal822 hi, thanks for your very interesting comment. to hear the best of the topping, you really need very high resolution equipment in the entire chain, otherwise it quickly sounds harsh. To answer your question: when I want to listen to music, I choose the Sugden, when I want to listen to a recording, I chose the Topping. I hope that makes sense?
@@PearlAcoustics That makes perfect sense, and is exactly how I was thinking about it. The Topping seems perfect for recording and mastering engineers to check if a drum lug is buzzing or if the vocalists coughs in the iso booth during the guitar solo. Different tools for different purposes.
I brought the D400EX, in the hopes that the 'slightly warmer' sound other reviewers had commented on might be enough to satisfy me whilst gaining the added resolution of a modern dac. But I found the sound too matter-of-fact and inhuman, compared to my old Ayon, which ran rings around it in terms of musical communication. Resolution is great but it's presentation which counts if you want to care about the music.
Interesting question. I have heard this too, so today I did some very carefully soundstage comparisons and the D90lll compared with the others tested was the widest by far. More ‘open’ so I don’t know where those comments started.
@@PearlAcoustics you would think that the lower the distortion the more clear the low level spatial cues and quiet details towards the back of the soundstage are. Go figure
That was excellent! where the recordings made from the Pearl speakers? and, could I ask what you used to stream into the DAC's and if you feel this have any influence?
Thank you, very kind! To get the best result, you need to download the tracks from our website, there’s a big difference. To answer your question. The tracks came from the original CD’s and using the digital output from the transport (coax) straight into the Dac’s. For the comparison between the D90, the SMSL D400 and the Sugden… yes they were recorded from the Sibelius loudspeakers in the listening room. For the D90 vs D10B comparison, they were recorded from my Neumann desktop loudspeakers. I hope that helps?
@@PearlAcoustics Thank you, yes it does. So would you say that the final warmth and naturalness is due to the Sibelius loudspeakers? as I sense I'm hearing than characteristic horned bass which is difficult to achieve on many speakers
@@andrewtompkin6567 I think I would have to say that ‘yes’ 😀 But of course I am biased. Having said that, when our clients hear our loudspeakers for the first time, that’s exactly what they say “how natural and detailed everything sounds”. Thanks for showing so much interest in the topic
I have listened many DACs but they all were multibit oversampling Sigma/Delta DACs like these two. It would be interesting to compare them with R2R NOS DACs as the majority of people say that they sound better. P.S. Your final words about the timbre, reverberations and acoustic music only confirm my opinion. The difference you found between SMSL and Topping (which youl liked more) is exactly the same as the difference between Technics SL-G700 M2 and DENON DCD2560GL. I told you about this in a previous video. The Technics' Sabre 9026 plays each tone and note with immaculate precision but somehow uniform and flat whilst the DENON's Burr Browns might not be that credible and defined but you hear the different strenght with which the musician hits the keybord. And this seems to be closer to the reality so i like it more. Eric Clapton "Unplugged" tracks Running on fate and Old love
I have a vintage Parasound HD-1100 DAC with Two Burr-Brown PCM 63P-J 20 bit, push-pull for each channel and fully balanced digital operation. It's the most analog sounding DAC I have ever heard. It weights about 13lbs and has the following power supply config: 3 separate transformers and nine regulators for digital circuits and for each analog channel. DACs absolutely do make a difference and I need to find another Parasound to stash away as a backup!
Douk has new dac with both .. they took my idea but i wanted that design with 3 chips adding the chi chip 😮 but for low cost one can do honest comparison between these 2 chips 😊😊
.... maybe it's quite hard to distinguish between DAC chipsets nowadays, but I honestly would like to contradict Mr. Darko's opinion that differences between DACs are small. The easily range in the same magnitude as cables, or maybe even amplifiers. What might be true though is that all Delta-Sigma DACs with either ESS Sabre Chipsets or AKM chipsets sound the same, but other architectures do not. (Chord, Mola Mola, R2R, ...) Anyway, very nice video! Cheers
Thanks for sharing your kind appreciation. And for your observations. To be fair to Darko, I think he put it more or less as you do. I.e. there is a difference between DAcs but not as big as switching loudspeakers, for example. I think he was managing expectations to newcomers to the field.
There's more to a dac than just the chip set. The quality of the input drivers and the analogue output drivers both make a difference. The bit that makes the biggest difference is often the power supply. I have a Topping E30 that I use solely for TV duties. I have experimented with it playing music in a couple of properly high end systems. Using the standard plug-top smps the sound quality was good for the price but in the grand scheme of things a bit meh. I built a high quality linear power supply utilising a Sparkoslabs voltage regulator. The addition of this supply totally transformed the Topping into something quite spectacular.
@@nathanevans6277When I redid my listening room I purchased linear power supplies for as many devices as I could. That said, my impression is that SMPSs are getting better and better. Paul McGowan has stated that at some point PS Audio will probably start using switch mode power supplies.
@@PanAmStyle don't get me wrong, the smps I was referring to was a phone charger which came with an old phone. This is what Topping suggested for use with the E30. The reason I built a linear supply is that I already had all the components left over from previous projects. Another reason for building a linear supply is that my level of expertise in electronics is way short of that required to build a smps of a similar quality. I have nothing against switching supplies, my power amps are Purifi Class-D with Hypex power supplies.
@@PanAmStyle I'm a big fan of PS Audio, though I don't own any of their products at the moment. (A power plant is on the horizon). The reason they are going switch mode has probably got as much to do with legislation, environmental concerns and cost as it does sound quality.
That was interesting I like the akm and that 800 was smooth. The ESS I want to like but they sound unpleasantly detailed like those KEF LS50. Anyway my dacs are a bryston bda1 and a bda2. The bda2 has akm chips the 1 is crystal. I think 1 more lively 2 with akm pretty neutral and accurate. Ok thats it oh yeah cables do matter I got dh labs yum
Thanks for the effort - I know how long these things take to set up properly. Compared to the 'Cycles' track being played directly from Qobuz, I hear a lot of noise and distortion in your recordings. And the bottom octave is simply non-existent. Perhaps it would have been better to record the outputs of the DACs directly into the input of the ADC and then level-match to the original?
@@PearlAcoustics Yes, I downloaded the 16/48 tracks from your website and compared with the original track on Qobuz, using a pair of Dan Clark headphones. I think doing this gives a really good idea of how the whole playback system (including room) affects the sound. But I do hear differences between your recordings themselves. These things are always difficult to describe in words, but the ESS seems to sound more 'incisive', and the AKM and Sugden progressively 'softer'. Thanks once again for sharing your recordings.
Golden advice, look for a used D70s 2x akm4497, linear power supply, OPA1612. You would not lose any details and add a little warmth and bigger soundstage. I use it also with the PRE90 👌🏻 thanks for the nice tracks 😊
I have an example of where the same dac chips didn't sound the same. My wiim pro+ and SU-1 jave the same AKA chipset. Out of the box with standard usb phone charger power supplies there was not a large difference in sound and the SU-1 went to my bookshelf. I later added a ifi ipower2 power supply which improved both dacs but more so with the SU-1 which presented a wider soundstage and better instrument separation.
The D90 Mk III sounds OK, a bit on the hot side IMO and I don't think I could listen to it for extended periods, that Sugden on the other hand beats them all.
I downloaded the original uncompressed files from the Pearl Acoustics site and listened to them over my own D90s (I have the original one with AKM and the D90III with Sabre). The 'hotness' you here IMO has more to do with the CZcams compression than with the D90. If you really want to hear the original quality, download those files yourself. CZcams is not a good measuring stick.
Glad you liked the Sugden, but as Andy says below... If you have not done so already, try listening again to the original WAV files. It's interesting to see how that changes things. The Sugden is nice though, I must say.
While I appreciate the effort in exporting the wav files to get rid of the CZcams compression, are we really hearing what you are hearing? Aren’t we just listening to how our own DACs process these files? It doesn’t mean we can’t hear differences, but I do not think anyone should be making qualitative judgments based on how their DAC is processing your different DAC test files.
Thanks for your comment. Absolutely. These recordings were made in room with a very simple microphone array, which will have a massive impact in the sound. This exercise is just uk see if people can detect differences, not how they might sound in their systems. The idea of uploading is to circumnavigate CZcams compression only.
But preamp/amp mess with the decoded signal? It's really hard to tell and hard to spend that much just because some figures tested beyond human hearing limit, doubt we really care about the difference even we can hear it...I did see that a lot of people prefer AKM chips based DAC, include me lol a long term user of Fostex HP-A3, so there is some handlings done the DAC after all...
Gosh! Not much in it imho. I really couldn't call it between th Topping and the SMSL. The Sugden was maybe just a hint more veiled than the other two. There was a difference between the two Toppings - but not much given the price difference. Of course all the above had to pass through my own dac before reaching my ears so it may be easier to discern the subtleties in the original setups.
Hi Barry, thanks for sharing your findings. Did you listen with the original Wav files from the website? I found that the compression on CZcams masked so much (as expected), and of course, the room mics are not the same as human ears…. Thanks again.
the difference in DAC should not be heard, but seen. subtract one DAC from another using the same sources (and align the time scale of course). eyes are more objective than ears. I always want to do this but I can't find the time :)
Thanks for your comment. Well now you can simply go to our website and download the sample tracks and see if you can hear the differences between the Dac’s. And you can do it without looking at them! Enjoy
Any thoughts or observations regarding the size of the soundstage? Differences in depth? I found that the ESS-based DAC I had (Eversolo Z8) had a smaller stage compared to my current R2R-based one (Ares II), with the Z8 the stage was mostly between the speakers and now it often stretches to the outside of the speakers. Depth is also much improved, so much so that I can't go back to the flatter sort. Also great difference in tone. Curious about your findings on this Harley! :) Btw I listened to a few of the clips, the SMSL sounds more organic and real than the Topping to my ears, the topping more clean.
Hi Filip, thanks for sharing your findings. To be honest, I did not notice a big difference in the soundstages (maybe I was too busy comparing the tonal quality). All I can say is that in the listening room, we have nice wide and deep soundstages from each of the DACS, way beyond left and right of the loudspeakers. For serious comparison with my sound clips (which are still far inferior than being in the room) I think you need to listen to the WAV files, as the CZcams compression, seems to negatively impact the Topping D90, more than the others.
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks for the reply! I can imagine the stages of the SMSL and Topping being similar, sounds like they're both great in this regard. They are at least one step up from my old Z8 so no wonder they seem to perform better. I actually downloaded the Cycles-clips, listened via my B&W PX7 S2. The difference in tone and character is clear. It's interesting, I think, how the tone plays such a huge part (at least for me) in what I prefer. What gives me an emotional response is not always what sounds objectively better. Comparing these files the SMSL drew me in to the music in a way the Topping didn't. Don't know why. Which is fascinating in itself!
Inferior channel separation can induce a false (not in the recording) exaggeration of stereo width (and thus depth). R2r is like tubes, if you like its effects, great, but they are indeed effects, they are objectively inferior in accuracy and linearity. The higher distortion components are different in each channel, which increases a vague sense of space, a mild stereo effect.
Sorry, audioscience is not to take seriously. "If it measures the same, it sounds the same" is nonsense. Especially, if you just take three values to qualify equipment. Scores are just for consumer, giving them the feeling they can make valuable decision. That is nonsense too. More important than the chip itself is the implementation, like power supply and output stage. I just switched from using the dac inside the buchhard i150 to Laif Harmony. A difference in sq that is hard to descibe, but amazing. It always comes to the same: listen for some time to the new equipment, than turn back to the old one and if you do not hear a difference, send the new back. Best Ulrich
Hi Ulrich, no ‘sorry’ needed. I do like your common sense approach! However…. (I have just come back to my original comment to edit it) I really do appreciate the work Amir does. I think it’s very useful to see how a piece of kit measures (2nd and 3rd order harmonics etc.) but I only see this as a Gide to its technical prowess. How it actually sounds, is something completely different) that’s why I agree that eventually it comes down to pragmatism and actually listening with ones ears. Preferably in one’s own listening space. Thanks for sharing
ASR is a cult. I worked my way up from low end to high end DACs by listening, not measuring. Of course they sound different and they match differently with specific amps and power supplies. Something very simple to "hear for" when testing a DAC is width of sound stage. Some sound more focused, some extend the stage right in front you. I have no idea how it works but it does.
DAC s and amplifiers are so good now that imo the differences are really difficult to distinguish in a double blind test. It’s somehow like those blind tests for wines were very expensive wines are described with very sophisticated flavours like smoked plums, fresh basil fragrance, black pepper, fruity freshness etc and the sommelier is picking as the best wine a 10Eur bottle of wine instead of the 1000 Eur bottle 😂. Imo the most dramatic changes are coming from the room acoustic, specially the Reverberation Time 60 parameter , bass management and of course the loudspeakers. And if room treatment isn’t possible then getting the bass ‘stress ‘out of the speakers into a subwoofer via a dsp with room correction is the second most effective way to get a very clear improvement. Thanks for sharing, your reviews and expertise are always informative, inspirational and good food for thought.
I have to ask even if you perhaps cannot do an A/B comparison, is the Topping in the same level as the Mola Mola Tambaqui? It too measures superb but cost a lot more then the Topping.
For the Pre-amplifier, I would say 'yes', for the DAC - there is something very special going on with the Mola-Mola DAC. It's hard to put one's finger on. But the price of the Mola-Mola, puts it out of my budget! ;-)
@@PearlAcoustics people spending 10k on say a chord dave ,dcs etc or even 45k on a greek made one ,ideon,should think again,sota performance under 1k.......
@@user-es3hq5zk4e hi, thanks so much for your comment. I agree, for 1000EUR you can purchase a very accurate digital to audio converter. So I get your point but hifi is like the watch industry. Very few people buy a watch purely to know what time it is. And some pay enormous amounts of money because the object they are buying matches their lifestyle.
This is an amazing podcast. The little D10 performs better from a rhythmic point of view on the Cycles on the desktop file. The SMSL is coloured and faulty from the rhythmic point of view. The rhythm is a big part of the musicality of audio equipment. This is what I hear.
Thanks for your very kind words. And thanks for sharing your findings too. A sense of rhythm is indeed very important. I will pick up on that in Part 2. Coming in October
You always, reassuringly, talk so much sense on this topic. Thank you for taking the time to share your views.
That's very kind, thank you! You're very welcome
I also think that your emotional state is a key factor in what you hear in the music and your enjoyment of it. If you are relaxed and in the mood to allow the music to flow over you, it will.
Absolutely!
Probably an under appreciated part of the listening experience.
Interesting topic! Dacs sound differences are indeed sometime very small… but the rest of the chain and the attention put in listening is crucial! For myself, in a medium revealing system (Lintons and SMSL VMV A1) I tested the ess in a Primare SC15 versus my mojo 2…. And oh boy. The mojo 2 is so much more natural in the midrange… very easy to ear. Thanks for the discussion!
You're very welcome. Thanks too for sharing your own experience
As a long-suffering music listener, I realised that there is no perfect solution to audio reproduction as everyone has a subjective view of what music should sound like. Every room is a complex environment to start with, and so forth, and this is especially true when higher end products are concerned, there is no definitive measure of the 'sound' other then the numbers and the opinions of others in often, very different circumstances, my approach is simply, listen in your specific system/room for a while and if it is more enjoyable than previously, only then should you consider the upgrade, if the differences are worthwhile.
Very true!
You have come to the same place as I have in this journey. I know the sound is right when it makes me involuntarily tap my foot.
@@danmarjenka6361 absolutely
Outstanding rundown comparing the three DACs. Very insightful and quite helpful. Thanks!
Thanks! Very kind.
Good afternoon, just wanted to thank you for your outstanding video where you managed to eloquently explicate your experience with both DACs. I was on the fence for some time and upon watching your video, opted for the Topping d90 III. Enjoying some good ole music right now. Thank you very much again.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing your kind appreciation. Enjoy the music!
Hello Sir, great topic. Here is my set up , how i listen to music at the moment. I have 2 ohms , 8 inch speakers in transmission line 1.2 meters high boxes. Those speakers are driven with NAD 712 stereo reciever, which is capable to drive those speakers at lower ohm regime. When i am listening to a CD i use older Marantz 16 bit linear CD player as transport and coaxial output to DAC SMSL SU-1 , basic DAC from smsl family. It have AKM chip. Also, from PC when i want to listen to high res music files , i am listening from PC via voicemeeter DSP as digital preamp thru asio option to avoid windows audio drivers. From usb connection to SMSL su-1 DAC, Dac analog outputs goes directly to main in input (directly to amplifier without its preamp) of NAD 712 reciever. Voicemeeter DSP is for volume control. The sound is amazing from both sources.
Thanks for sharing your experience with your set up.
Listening to your Sugden DAC impressed me the most while the D90III was the least impressive. Great presentation and analytics. Keep up the great work sir.
Thank you for your feedback and kind appreciation
As a D90III user, the D90III did sound very good to my ear. Still looking forward to their future discrete dac.
Interesting, I didn’t know they had one planned
I liked the D90III much more than the SMSL. The Topping D10B also very good. Can't say if its the sonic characteristic or how well the system works/implementation, but ESS seems to sound a bit livelier than AKM but I generally like both. I have a Topping d70s an a Aune x18th with Sparkos and its linear PS. The higher end models within the Topping line versus lower seemingly give more resolution and separation from my experience.
@@nc3419 thanks for sharing your findings on this topic
Great presentation. Probably the best discussion of modern DACs I have heard. In addition to the excellent presentation, I resonate with your audio preferences and priorities.
Thank you! Glad it was helpful! It is very kind of you to take the time to share your appreciation
Even with all of the fidelity and compression problems inherent to a CZcams video, with a good set of Sennheisers, I could hear the difference. Your analysis was spot on (to my ears anyway). Surprised how good the D10 sounded. Very similar to the D90, but not as wide or deep. The D90 had just that little bit extra detail and decay. The Sugden and SMSL sound veiled in comparison. Thank you for this extremely educational video.
You’re very welcome indeed. Thanks for your comment
Thanks for sharing the clips 🙏 they make the differences crystal clear and can help customers choose based on their preferences
You’re very welcome!
Very interesting topic I hardly can wait to see what you come up with in comparing the Topping D10B to the others more expensive dac's. I have a Topping D10, it performed very so audibly better in my system when I bypassed the power source from the computer by replacing it with iFi audio's iDefender and their iPower power supply I have also a linear 5v power supply that works very well too, it made the dac sound impressively better.
Hi thanks for your kind comment. If you go to our webshop, you can download to the WAV master files from the comparison between the D10B and the D90 Mklll. Enjoy!
🤗 thanks Harley for helping the audiophile community💚💚💚
You’re very welcome!
I agree DACs do sound different, however my suspicion has always been that this is due to the analogue section rather than the digital section. Anyway, thanks for another insightful and interesting video.
Thank you. I think we’re on the same lines here… once the digital conversion is done, it’s immediately what happens next that’s critical.
@@PearlAcoustics I agree with this 100% .. if you have a dac that produces a small negative current output and you need to trans impedance amplifier to start to bring that analog signal up to line level, that seems to be a most critical point, as this is usually done with virtual ground on an op amp front end. The current source needs to be converted to an output voltage through the feedback resistance on the inverting input. Seems like a tall order before we even consider power supplies, dac clocking, et cetera.
Thanks for this entertaining video, you are a long time audiophile and it's so obvious.
What I can tell is your trusted Sugden is the best of all here,period! It just let you enjoy the music without tension or unnecessary attention to minor details
It's what I hear on my Modi multibit dac, DarkVoice tube amp and Sennheiser HD660S2, youtube is fine, I can clearly hear everything
Thanks very kind.
I have a Schiit Modi 3 with a ESS and a Modi 3 with an AKM. You'd think they'd sound the same but there is a slight difference. To me most DACs sound very similar till you get past the $500 range. Friend has the same setup as me but with a Bifrost. Blows my system away. Better soundstage, height, width and bass is more well defined and digs deeper. The fact is even our cheaper DACs now are pretty amazing compared to 20 years ago. One day hopefully I can upgrade but for now my Modis are doing the job.
I'm new to all this. What is a Bifrost? A brand?
@@robertmacmoneagle6917 American company called Schiit. Bifrost is their mid-tear DAC.
@@robertmacmoneagle6917 Can't recommend their entry DAC the Modi enough. Lil magic' box got me back into music listening.
@@johnpajestka5022 thanks John. I've heard great things about Schiit.
Thanks for your comment!
Thoroughly enjoy your talks, thankyou,
You’re very welcome
I still listen to my music using Def tech BP-10 speakers (from late 90's) hooked up to Yamaha integrated amp using burr brown 16bit/48 Hz converter, hooked up to Amazon music non compressed music. I cant find a diff in music quality to ultra high end and my 3K set up. I feel so blessed that I enjoy music and not tech. I feel sorry for the folks who can hear diff between DACs.
Thanks for your comment. No need to feel sorry for us, it’s our hobby or profession (or both)! 😀 indeed, enjoy the music!
Good Job! Yes, only the very critical listener can easily spot subtle differences. I do have the Topping D10s, and the Topping E70 Velvet. When you do a direct compare you can easily tell that the D10s is a lot more brittle than the E70 Velvet. The Velvet carries more weight to the audio.
Thanks! Much appreciated. Thanks too for sharing your experience with the E70 velvet and D10.
yes that's been my experience as well, but when you're comparing two DAC's, and one cost four times the other, it's much easier to tell the difference .. you start comparing different dacs that are in the $800-$900 range, it's going be harder to decide which one you like better, but when when when the dac cost at least 2x or 3x or more of another, than you're going to notice sonic quality differences much more readily, especially between lower prices, as in your $100 to $400 example.
I tried it in three systems, earbuds, a good desktop system with an Aiyima A07 with Meridian DAC and Arcam speakers and a proper multi thousand system. With the earbuds, there was very little difference. With the Aiyima, some extremely small differences. Of the Chinese DACs I preferred the Topping D90 but the Sugden was more natural and a clear step above. On the full hifi system, I had them in the same order but with the Sugden very much further ahead and without CZcams processing, I would expect it to be more so. The full system I'm using is very sensitive to changes in DAC.
This is roughly what I would have expected. In cheaper systems (which can be perfectly good and fulfil what the user needs), I wouldn't expect a worthwhile difference. Whether people report a difference is based more on the rest of the system that they're listening to. I also have a classic mostly 1960's system where the differences between DACs is generally minimal.
The thing that I would do with that D10 though is look at somehow filtering the power via the USB.
Hi Hector, thanks for sharing your findings. If you ever get the time, try again with the download files. CZcams compression seems to favour the Sugden… but as you say, the differences are minimal. But once heard, hard to un- hear. Thanks again. Harley
Just an F.Y.I. I have a Topping D10s hooked up to my notebook. Then I use an optical cable (280 individual strands of glass) from the D10s optical output to my Topping E70 Velvet. This is my sole purpose of having the D10s, and why I purchased it in the first place. Works great for that purpose!
@@dungysphincter7974 oh yes… good point. Thanks for sharing.
I loved the Sugden the most. Simply more natural timber.
Thanks for your feedback
I have the Denafrips Venus, R2R Dac and the New Ontech Dac 07, Burr Brown from Denmark…both going into the same streamer and both into the same Preamp, the preamp going to the First Watt SIT-4 amp,so A/B listening is easy with the Pass remote…there is a night and day difference…the Venus is way more aggressive and the New Ontech with the Burr Brown is more mellow without loosing any details in my Volti audio horn speakers…
Side note…the SIT-4 is the most amazing sounding amp I have ever had…with the pass labs preamp they would totally make the Sibelius speakers sing like no other amp…you would never use anything else …
Hi Charles. Thanks for your interesting comment. My colleague Ajay has a Sit-4 in his showroom in London, it’s the one amp I think he will never part with. Snd you’re right, the combination with the Sibelius is excellent, he has the Pass pre too. We use the combination at HiFi shows sometimes.
@@PearlAcoustics yes Harley, I am a fan of Nelson Pass, this is his best amp with my very efficient speakers, I was using the Pass XA-25 amp which I love too but this SIT-4 oh my is just so sweet sounding….I went from Klipsch Heritage speakers to Volti audio speakers, together with the SIT-4 it’s an endgame combination…I have had the Sit-4 for a month and it amazes me every day…
Interesting… I have the Buchardt A10 powered monitor (from Denmark) and they come with dsp and a Burr Brown internal Dac. This Dac sounds really smooth and detailed as well …
Great review again 👍. Since the start audiosciensereview a lot of attention is put into good test results. For that's they are below hearing threshold nowadays. I also agree that the output stage has the biggest effect on the sound from a DAC. Like what's the impact on different out/input impedances (mis)match?
@@Mrhifitunes thank you!
As usual an insightful video. I have a Denon receiver and a Marantz player of recent manufacture. They both have the same DAC - akm 4490 - as far as I can gather from the internet. Yet, the Marantz sounds slightly clearer and crisper than the Denon which appears a tad congested. This is far from a night and day difference. It is rather subtle.
I do not know if this actually is the case or my ears are playing truant. I do confess to having an incurable problem with my ears.
Thanks for your kind appreciation. If you hear differences, then there probably is, meaning - it’s a bit like cars, when you’ve been driving the same car for years and years, you get to know every noise and quirk, I feel the same is true for hifi equipment and when you swap them out, you can detect even the slightest change, whereas a visitor who does not know your system and room, half as good as you do, may struggle to hear what you hear. As for your ears, well mine are getting on for 70 years old now and they are certainly nothing like they used to be. But I can still enjoy music and strangely, can hear even the subtlest differences in equipment set ups and master recordings, which my colleagues are staggered by. What I can’t hear, I can’t hear and that’s fine! 😂
@@PearlAcoustics Yes indeed. I abide by Stanley Kubrick's edict -- How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the DAC!!! 😆
Thank you for such a nicely put together topic.
You’re very welcome!
Excellent and comprehensive review! Very much appreciate and must thank you for getting into the weeds on this type of discussion. Listening deeply is in itself a worthwhile practice, and can actually enhance one's overall experience if done so. Ive had some great and interesting dacs. All had distinctly different sounds and tonal characteristics: Schitt Modi, Massdrop r2r, Topping D70s MQA (akm dac), and a very unique ess design with the Okto Research dac 8 stereo - which is really wonderful and could not imagine not having in my system. But have to say, now I want that Sugden too! 🙏
Thank you for your kind appreciation. Indeed, the Sugden has something special about it…
I am - as an engeneer - always a bit sceptical when I see audiophiles speaking about their technical perceptions. Your video however was straight to the point - congrats. I completely understand that the differences between AKM and ESS are subtle at best. The chip designs may be quite different but the conversion process follows accepted rules. I do not fully concur to your assessment that the chip has little influence to the sound. Technically it has the same "chance" to contribute to a sound difference than every discrete component. In the price class of 1000$ I expect the best components (like op-amps) anyhow. I think the reason for having the DA chip twice is just the fear of cross talk on the analogue section. On the digital side there is no negative impact to be expected.
Personally, I have listened to ESS and AKM DACs without a clear winner. For me, AKM was a bit more detailed. The DACs however had been in the 500 Euro class and there it is easily possible that OP-Amps change the picture or slight production deviations. I could easily live with ESS as well. Currently I am testing two DACs i bought (SMSL SU-1 for 80 Euro and Topping E70 velvet for 480 Euro). It is a bit frustrating that the differences between those DACs is so minimal.
My general perception is that you have to put your money on the analogue components. I personally spent 65% on the loudspeakers, 25% on the integrated amplifier and 10% on the DAC. The streamer itself is quite basic but it had in the limited tests I did no influence on the sound. Jitter etc. is no problem any more these days.
Thank you for your kind appreciation. And thanks too for your excellent contribution to the topic. I especially like your reasoning on how you divide your budget across components. Enjoy the music.
I am a old school pro sound engineer, never took audiophiles seriously and assumed that most DACs are equal with minor EQ/dynamic differences in conversion…something that audiophiles can describe for hours with fancy language… in the pro audio world, lots of engineers buy analog expensive gear based on the flaws in the circuit and the non-linear harmonic distortion they add…ultimately I am seeking the most honest, truthful DAC that tells the truth and nothing but the truth with zero sugar coating….thank you for for this review….
Hi, join the club! The holy grail. The only problem is, when you find it and place it in a domestic environment, you might be disappointed to discover that bitcoins not sound nice, and you’ll need to make a correction somewhere in the chain! Enjoy the music.
In my experience the difference between the anti-aliasing filters is clearly audible and ore important than the DAC. Not using the standard filter at 44.1/48 16 bit changes the tonal balance of a recording. At HighRes, long FIR-Filters with optimization on no pre-ringing can sound better. Remains the question which setting was used for mastering, what is not noted on any release.
Thanks for sharing
Great review. Thanks for sharing.
You're very welcome!
I really like the way you take the time to talk about this, and bring your musical mind and soul. Would be interested how a r2r dac will perform in your setup with the Sibelius, according to you.
Hi, thanks for your kind words. I have not had much experience with ladder DACs, as yet. It would be interesting to explore, one day.
The speakers and room would have more effect than any dac. Get the best speaker you can get. And set them up correctly. I have recently been messing with mine by adding some foam to the sharp edges around the tweeter. Well boy did that make an impact. Amir will show in his measurements that DACs are transparent.
Thanks for your comment
In your setup I liked the Topping the best. It had a little bit more crispiness than the SMSL. The Sugden didn't impress me at all. However the Topping might be too revealing for the chain I'm currently looking for a DAC, consisting of a Violectric DHA V226 and the Audeze LCD-XC. The two sound great via my NAD C510 (PC) and my Musical Fidelity M6s (Main System), but I want a smaller form factor. So your video was very welcome and informative. But it put another two DACs on my radar. Arrgh. 😄
I am glad you enjoyed the video, even if it did create more confusion than it was designed to! Best wishes, H
I've got the Holo audio cyan 2 r2r DAC, absolutely love it
OK Thanks for the tip!
A few reviewers have mentioned the soundstage and body of the D90 III being slightly curtailed in comparsion to others, even heard that some prefer the Topping D70 as it has more body, depth of image and a better display.
I do want to try one out at some point, but they also cross into the headphone dac/pre price points, and some of those seem to get great paper specs too.
Pretty torn as my CD transport for upstairs has failed, the second hand costs and repair costs are not far off the cost of a CA CXC transport, making the CX100 an interesting item, yet part of me is screaming out Kali and a topping into the PC job done. Problem is I still enjoy ancient equipment.
Thanks for your comment. Like all these things, listening in the room, is the most important thing. (I like older equipment too - I am a bit nostalgic that way) ;-)
Great review, well detailed as usual! Great topic!
Much appreciated! Glad you enjoyed it
Ive come to enjoy the ESS Dac chip "sound". When i first heard a Oppo BDP 105 which sported the highest end early implementation of the chip and compared it to my CS dac'd Marantz player i ended up finding the Oppo clean but unmusical (sense of timing was so bad music almost stopped making sense) and stuck with the Marantz. Then i upgraded the Marantz to a Luxman D06 which was better alround. Then one day i bought an Audiolab M Dac+ for a second system and again at first I felt it sounded off. So i waited. And i ran it in properly, something i maybe didnt do with the Oppo. And after a while of waiting more i realised it wasnt bad at all. And then i placed it into my big system and did some quick A/B switching between the Luxman and the Audiolab (a 10x price difference btw!) and blow me down did the Audiolab sound cleaner, more expansive and just that bit better still. I couldnt believe it, so i sold my Luxman and enjoyed the money from that. Fast forward abit and ive sold the Audiolab after it broke and i fancied a change and ive ended up with a Marantz SA-12SE as my digital hub which i love. Crucially, it play the 100's of DSD discs ive got from Mofi/AP/Universal Japan et al but it also sounds great with RB discs. In the second system however, lies the biggest bargains ive ever heard in hifi and there lies a combo of the Project PreBox S2 Digital (2x ESS9038Q2M's) into a Musical Fidelity M2Si (wow, and at the price how!?) and ending with Focal Chora 806 (wait, a budget speaker CAN do detail and smoothness and not just one or the other!? And THAT dimensionality too!?). For what i think was a total outlay of about £1400 i can honestly say the law of diminishing returns is very alive and well in 2024 and id urge anyone to try this setup in any environment and feel its not just about perfectly balanced. I do feel the little Project S2 dac is a star performer on its own too, especially since pairing with the Accu box battery psu. I honestly think i will get another one for the big system just because its so special.
So ive come full circle from initally hating the ESS sound, to being passive towards it to being in love with it!!
HIFI EH!
Thanks for sharing your back story. Indeed HiFI can take you all over the place, finally ending up back where one almost started - so as to speak! Enjoy
Thanks for the great review. I have the 'original' Topping D90 (with AKM) and the Topping D90 MKIII. I have downloaded your files and I am anxious to here if there are any differences between the both Toppings I have.
I am very curious to learn what the result was! ;-)
Now you have to try Topping's new B200 Monoblock amps.
OK.... I have never heard of them! I am curious :-)
Great dac review
Thanks!
The D90 vs the D10 i personally thought was the most interesting comparison. Its a lot closer than i expected but I did hear a difference. I can see why if someone didn't know what to listen for they would see every dac costing more than the D10 as a waste of money.
I have the D10s connected to stax. I demo all my new music there first before i listen with my Maggies. I keep delaying buying the D90. Everytime I'm about to buy it they make a new version 😂
😂 thanks for your comment and contribution to the topic!
Hey grandfather! I like the way you explaining things about sound very informative and easy to understand
Hey, thanks. That’s nice to hear! 😉
The differences between the DACs are clear. My big "take away" from this demo is that your speakers are revealing. Good job. Thanks.
Thank you!
Maybe a video on the measurements of the speakers !
Very interesting comparison Harley. Re the “50 ways to kill your lover”, drum section. I use another track of theirs “The Boxer” for the same reasons. There’s a heavy drum “BOOM” after the “La La La”’s that was recorded in the lift shift! It’s very distinctive and great for testing/comparing systems out🎵🎶🎵
Thank you, very kind. And thanks for tip - I will have to listen out for that!
Which DAC would you recommend for monitoring purpose only for mixing / mastering ?
Meaning I don’t have any hardware and don’t need AD, just DA, for critical listening on headphones, that I could pair with an amp.
I was thinking about Lynx Hilo but it also does AD and I don’t need that ( it has a good headphone circuit built in tho )
Topping has great measurements but it’s made on sine waves, not complex music, and they don’t sound very realistic to me.
Thanks 🙏
Personally, I would go for an SPL Phonitor. Great headphone amplifier, very tactile operation and a clinically clean Dac.
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks, will look into it 👌
Great videos btw
@@user-km6eh3ox9h thanks!🙏
Thanks for the nice review!
Having owned a few dozen DAC’s I can say that the main difference between entry level and state of the art is stage depth, timbre, instrument separation and impulse response.
Basically the same criteria as for amplifiers for instance.
Signal to noise ratio and distortion play a lesser role as they meet minimum requirements for all products these days. Oddly enough most measurements are only mentioning these…
You're very welcome. thanks for sharing your experience here.
I’m going to download the files and see what differences I may be able to detect.
Currently I am leaning more toward an R2R ladder DAC to replace my current ESS-based component. The two that interest me the most are the Audio GD R7-HE and the Musician Taurus, primarily because I want an I2S connection that will enable me to use my disc player as a transport. The Audio GD has internal power regeneration but the Musician features *two* I2S inputs, which in my setup might be a plus.
Enjoy!
Olympics plus living in Belgium = must mention cycling! :)
You noticed 😀😂
@@PearlAcoustics We finally finished watching the Tour on re-plays. Of course I noticed!
@@JustinRoby9311 😂
Even with the lousy CZcams sound quality I can hear quite big differences and my preference is the Sugden. It seems the music has more oohmpf and more body. The Topping and SMSL can't really please me. Could be my ears are getting older and more sensitive to high frequencies but the mid range in the Sugden is superior.
Or maybe it is the CZcams sound quality?😄
I downloaded the original uncompressed files from the Pearl Acoustics site and listened to them over my own D90 and IMO the harshnesh/sharpness you here has more to do with the CZcams quality than with the D90. If you really want to hear it download those files yourself. You can maybe here differences on CZcams, but you can't here the actual sound quality. CZcams is not a good measuring stick.
Hi Rudi, it is indeed, very strange but the CZcams compression, seems to negatively impact the Topping D90, more than the others.
Dear Harley, thanks for another great video with a hot topic well explained and commented with the necessary nuance. The Sugden really stands out as far as I am concerned. But: why did you record through your speakers - microphone, etc? Why not simply hook the output of, the DACs directly to your recorder? Keep more of these videos coming! Regards from Hasselt.
Hi Johan…. Thanks for your generous remarks, I am so pleased you appreciate the way I make these videos. With regards to your question. It’s true it would make more technical sense but I thought it would be more fun / realistic to make a recording in the room from the loudspeakers. Both the Sibelius and the Neumann’s are very revealing, so I wanted the viewer to hear what I hear in my listening situations. The weakest link (by a long way) was the room microphone array. I do not use my professional set up, as it is way too much work. Having said that, I agree it would be more scientific the way you suggest and could be a useful approach for serious comparisons.
@@PearlAcoustics Hello again Harley,
Just bought the album (flac download) Cycles by Joris Vanvinckenroye from Bandcamp. I love solo bass and cello music, and this track sounded really very good. Thanks for the tip!
The Topping D90 III has been measured (audiosciencereview) and it's mega linear.
Indeed.
If the differences heard are not placebo, a microphone will record these differences, do you see these difference in the recorded sound from the microphone ?
Thanks for your question. I can detect them, but the best answer I can offer is to download the WAV files and listen on your system. Having said that, For serious comparison one needs to be actually in the room because microphones have a very different polar response than our ears and I did not use my professional studio recording equipment for this, as it was only for fun and to get a basic idea. I hope this helps?
I use the Khadas KTB DAC with its ESS chip. $100 - No need to spend four-figures for a DAC!
Great!
Thanks
You're welcome!
We hear a lot about R2R ladder DAC. I would have liked your point of view. I am using the DAC in my Moon headphone amplifier with good results. Thanks for this video.
You're very welcome! R2R DACS are intriguing, its been a while since I listened to one.
I feel you and your company direction matches quite well with Swiss Merson and Daniel Fauchiger!
I dont know them... I hope that's a good thing? ;-)
@@PearlAcoustics : it's a good thing not know!? curious head in the sand reply.
@@mediascapes2011 - ah I see there has been a misunderstanding here… what I meant was - I hope that that is a positive thing! Meaning that you see Swiss Merson and Daniel Fauchiger in a positive light. 😉 I don’t know and tried to find something in them but my Google searches led to nothing, I must have done something wrong?
@@PearlAcoustics I made a spelling mistake: Merason and Daniel Frauchiger, awesome guys!
@@mediascapes2011 ok great. Thanks. I will check them out.
Both chips are audibly indistinguishable and upstream/downstream in the box also has zero audible effect. Love to see some peer reviewed ab/x trials.
Hi thanks for your comnent. I wonder gave you watched the full video? Because I give you the opportunity to download the recorded tests and listen to them in your system and decide if you can hear any differences? They are taken from the microphones output, without any mastering etc. Just adjusted so that each one is within, 0,5db the same volume.
@@PearlAcoustics unfortunately the rabbit hole golden eared ones have destroyed the hobby. Next do power cords and cables. Big difference eh?
@@bluelithium9808 indeed, things can go too far… but surely the hobby is about listening to music and enjoying discovering new ways of bringing the recording experience into the home? In any case, thanks for your comment
Topping was more lively than the SMSL, I preferred it, but the Sugden was better, maybe less detail, but so much more air and space. The little topping sounded a bit compressed compared to the big one.
Hi Thanks for sharing your findings. Did you actually listen to the WAV files? There's a massive difference, compared with CZcams?
@@PearlAcoustics Over CZcams as I was at work ..... but with headphones and a pretty detailed dongle dac. Difference was already pretty clear to me, even though the headphones aren't anything special. I guess all of them will sound a lot better using the .wav's with better gear.
@@D1N02 absolutely. The CZcams compression can make the Topping D90 sound harsh… but the WAV files tell another story
@@PearlAcoustics now listened to the wav's Clear differences. The SMSL and de Sugden are more musical than the Topping, also more set back in the soundstage, especially the SMSL. The SMSL has better detail retrieval dan the Sugden and a more focussed center image. The Topping is a bit more lively but also the most forward one, also better focus and detail than Sugden. I think the main difference between topping and smsl is the sound stage depth (deeper with SMSL) and musicality (more so on smsl). So now I tend to prefer the smsl. The headphones I used before have rolled of highs, so there the Topping came out first. It is al a question of synergy I guess.
@@D1N02 thanks so much for your very interesting feedback. Best wishes from Belgium
Maybe its the dinky speaker on my phone at the moment, but the sugden struck me as the better sounding of the group
Thanks for sharing your comment. When you can try downloading the original files… the Sugden definitely has something special
Interesting and thanks for shared.
If you want to listen for a long time, SABRE is the right choice. and if you want to do a presentation, the choice is AKM with an initial impression that is very open but tired of listening for a long time.
The R2R DAC which is said to be better is doubtful about how to get resistors with such small tolerances and matched so many for mass products. everything has distortion but the choice is up to each individual's ears, pleasant hatmonic distortion like the old DAC with 16bit 44.1Khz non over sampling and IV tubes for something that feels analog.
It all depends on individual taste and not just measurement results because the general human ear is limited to distinguishing details.
Ed
Hi Ed, thanks for your comment and interesting addition to the topic. Enjoy the music.
between Sabre and AKM is the contrary
I love the video's you make. Thank you for posting such interesting topics. I've been using an SMSL SU-10 Dac with two ES9038PRO DAC chips inside it. I would be interested to see what you think of that one compared with the Topping D90 since the same brand of chips are used.
Glad you like them! I don’t know the SMSL SU-10, but I have very good things about it !
@@PearlAcoustics I have the SMSL -10 hooked up through a Decware Zbit to a Mapletree audio tube pre amp going to the Frankenstein 300B stereo amp to the Monitor audio platinum speakers.
@@krisdroesbeke4666 nice!
Everyone says they sound the same. But they don't, particularly when you are using a dongle and listening to the output from the on-chip amp. If you can't hear it, good. You dont need to buy expensive gear. It will all sound the same. I like a pre fire akm, or a wolfson.
Thanks for sharing
@00:52 "I can hear differences between DACs"
Given halfway recent and decent DACs, prove that statement in a serious blind test, level matched and whatnot, and become famous.
Thanks for your comment
Charming as always Mr " LoveGroove" 😊
Personally, I'm left cold by SINAD comparisons for audio devices - sorry Amir. These measurements may be useful to engineers and Ai/robot listeners....
On the other ear, we humans want to be moved by the ineffable magic and MAJESTY of Music!
Therefore we turn to (poorer measuring) devices like ladder dacs and valve preamps for their EMOTIONALLY satisfying presentation.
Like you Harley, I listen for authentic SOUNDING acoustic instruments in acoustic spaces. Therefore, thanks for the music recommended .
A Beethoven fan, l very much enjoyed the lively Anima Eterna rendition of the 5th. Good perspective and hall acoustic. Will add the whole cycle of symphonies to my playlist.
I'll be listening to your other suggestions soon.
Cheerio!
🎶😎🎶
Thanks! (You'll love Anima Eterna's 4th., it is such a great recording of an often over looked symphony)
I listened through my balanced SS Preamp last night.
Just wonderful!
I'm looking forward to the even more holographic & trippy presentation of my Valve preamp.
Quote:
"Here is a superb new set of the most famous symphonies in our musical culture, brilliantly played on period instruments. Jos van Immerseel and his highly skilled Flanders-based orchestra Anima Eterna play at modern pitch (A=440), which they have established was done in Beethoven’s Vienna. As the composer had to make do with motley collections of amateurs and professionals and couldn’t hear a thing after about 1817, this is better than anything he experienced. Van Immerseel’s interpretations are exciting but always musical. "
(The Observer Daily Mail).
That makes you appreciate a good recording played over a decent stereo all the more!
🎵🎶😀👍🎶🎵
Great overview and the sample tracks you put up are really useful. My impression was that the SMSL and Sugden were fairly similar, with the D90 being somewhat more analytical and forward with the vocals and treble while having a touch more detail and quantity of sub bass. If I owned the D90 I'd probably be using the valve/tube setting more often than not.
Having said all that, the more I listened and compared the less obvious the differences became. Wonder what my impressions would be if I was able to do a blind listening test.
Hi Thomas, thanks for your kind comment. Did you compare the actual WAV files? They’re easy to download and give a very different experience
@@PearlAcoustics I did use the WAV files, they make it very easy to A/B the DACs and quickly hear any differences.
@@thomaskuhn6541 ah that’s good to hear. Thankyou
I would like to hear Amir and you discuss DACs and other equipment. You would certainly disagree on some things but most likely agree more often. You are both gentlemen, so I think you'd get along fine.
Thanks for your kind words and suggestion. I would love to chat with Amir!
While I desire both I place musicality above detail and resolution. So implementation aside, AKM's sound signature is for me a bit more appealing than the ESS sound signature. I have yet to compare either to an r2r DAC of comparable quality. The Holo Audio Cyan 2 would be my choice for comparison to the Topping and SMSL. Thanks very much for the review and especially the sound samples.
You’re very welcome. Thanks for your contribution to the discussion
What does that even mean " musicality".
@@r423sdex an umbrella term for when acoustic music and the human voice sounds exactly 'right'. Our ears are 'calibrated' to recognize the sound of the human voice and we intuitively recognize when real world acoustic instruments sound 'off'. No such standard of comparison exists with electronic instruments, which is why they are unsuitable for evaluating audio equipment's musicality.
Topping D90 is warmer sounding. Bass has more presence and I noticed piano notes that weren’t there with the other DAC’s🎵🎶 Wirth hundreds more than the D10? Totally depends on your budget but I could easily live with the D10
Indeed. Thanks for your comment.
I was told recently that the actual chip doesn't make the difference because they are audibly perfect now. It's the output stage that is important.
Indeed, I think you’ll find that’s the conclusion I came too as well.
That’s perfect as well.
The good Basta made a lot of use of Andre Mergenthaler, a Luxembourger. Well, the Belgians and the Luxembourgers have never been green.
Thanks for your comment, however, forgive me, I am not sure that I quite understand it ☹️ ?
@@PearlAcoustics a part of the Wiki Text.... Mergenthaler is a Luxembourg musician who shares the same theme. The cello under his arm, a simple chair and a small battery of speakers in a semicircle with a few electronic devices, all within reach of the tips of his shoes - this is his orchestra: "L'Orchestre c'est moi". He integrates his playing life into the voices, which were initially recorded one above the other, using sensitive loop technology. And by communicating with himself in this way, he increases the musical intensity of his instrument in a multiphonic concert dance to an almost magma-like primal form." .... In German we say "nicht grün sein". It says Belgians and the Luxembourgers are not the best friends.
@@hausmannd ok! Thanks for helping me out there! Very interesting
Thanks for this video. The ability to do side-by-side comparisons is illustrative and entertaining. Are the S.M.S.L and Topping run directly to the amplifier or through the analog inputs of the Sugden for the recordings? I think I agree with your assessment of the S.M.S.L vs. Topping. To me, the Sugden DAC was the hands down winner, but I wonder if the Sugden is benefiting from a more robust output stage as part of a full preamplifier. Obviously this comparison will be colored by whatever DAC we're using to listen; I have an AudioQuest Dragonfly Red going into a cheap no-name Class D amp into KEF Q100s, but the results held with the DragonFly going directly into Sony MDR-7506 headphones, and when using the same headphone set up to evaluate the uncompressed files from your website. The Sugden may have softened the leading edges, but sounded more like a real bass in a real room -- especially on the harmonics of the higher register later in the excerpt -- and more like a real voice singing in a venue.
I see on Sugden's website that their DAC is a NOS design with no digital filtering. I assume that means it's an R2R design? If I understand the different DAC designs correctly, that would mean the Sugden likely has a perfect impulse response, and that time domain behavior seems to be why some people prefer R2R designs vs. the pre- and/or post-ringing found on delta-sigma designs with filters. I've always been intrigued about the differences after reading John Darko and Herb Reichert and others, but it seems your little video and file downloads allowed an opportunity to get part way to an audition myself, tempered by all my listening coming through the AQ Dragonfly. Since I could hear a difference even in these circumstances, I imagine getting an R2R DAC into my set up would have even more of an audible difference.
Is the logical conclusion that the only way to preserve the time- and phase-correct/coherent properties of your Sibelius loudspeakers with a digital system is to use a R2R DAC?
Thanks for you appreciation and interesting comment. The SMSL and the Topping D90 mk3 were both fed into the Topping 90 Preamplifier. (Which is very clean). For The Sugden comparison I used the Sugden Dac through the Sugden’s pre-amplifier, to give a better understanding of the Sugden sound. I hope that helps?
I don’t think any of the Dac’s have any issue with timing or phasing… they are all great performers. I think the main differences are in their output stages. But many of our customers swear by Sugden, but I like a variety of set ups. Depending on my mood! Best wishes, Harley
@@PearlAcoustics I played the downloaded clips on my main system -- Node 2i, Decware SE84, and 10" full-range drivers (Audio Nirvana) in a bass reflex cabinet. With just 30 seconds of listening to the "Cycles" track my wife, without having any idea what we were listening to or why, came to the same conclusions as me: the Topping sounded hard, etched, and glaring while the Sugden sounded like music. She actually thought they were two different recordings. It's a pretty interesting idea to be able to parse the differences between two DACs using a streaming DAC that's a half or quarter the price of the DACs in the comparison. You mentioned you have a Node there in the listening room as well. How would you compare its sound to the Topping or Sugden in your room?
@@thethanimal822 hi, thanks for your very interesting comment. to hear the best of the topping, you really need very high resolution equipment in the entire chain, otherwise it quickly sounds harsh. To answer your question: when I want to listen to music, I choose the Sugden, when I want to listen to a recording, I chose the Topping. I hope that makes sense?
@@PearlAcoustics That makes perfect sense, and is exactly how I was thinking about it. The Topping seems perfect for recording and mastering engineers to check if a drum lug is buzzing or if the vocalists coughs in the iso booth during the guitar solo. Different tools for different purposes.
Is there a comparison with the D90LE and the D90Mk3? I have the former, however, not sure if it is worth upgrading?
Hi, thanks for your question. I am sure there must be somewhere. However, if you D90LE sounds good, keep it 😉. Best wishes, Harley
@@PearlAcousticsthank you. The LE uses two ESS DAC chips, and doesn’t support MQA, so I guess they sound similar? It looks the same!
If you can't hear the difference I'm jealous, you just saved a dacload of money
😉
I brought the D400EX, in the hopes that the 'slightly warmer' sound other reviewers had commented on might be enough to satisfy me whilst gaining the added resolution of a modern dac. But I found the sound too matter-of-fact and inhuman, compared to my old Ayon, which ran rings around it in terms of musical communication. Resolution is great but it's presentation which counts if you want to care about the music.
I can imagine, if you’re used to the sound of the valve Ayon, then it probably wouldn’t work for you.
Ive heard that the d90 suffers limited soundstaging.
I’m not sure if or how a dac can affect soundstage.
How did you feel?
Interesting question. I have heard this too, so today I did some very carefully soundstage comparisons and the D90lll compared with the others tested was the widest by far. More ‘open’ so I don’t know where those comments started.
@@PearlAcoustics you would think that the lower the distortion the more clear the low level spatial cues and quiet details towards the back of the soundstage are. Go figure
That was excellent! where the recordings made from the Pearl speakers? and, could I ask what you used to stream into the DAC's and if you feel this have any influence?
Thank you, very kind! To get the best result, you need to download the tracks from our website, there’s a big difference. To answer your question. The tracks came from the original CD’s and using the digital output from the transport (coax) straight into the Dac’s. For the comparison between the D90, the SMSL D400 and the Sugden… yes they were recorded from the Sibelius loudspeakers in the listening room. For the D90 vs D10B comparison, they were recorded from my Neumann desktop loudspeakers. I hope that helps?
@@PearlAcoustics Thank you, yes it does. So would you say that the final warmth and naturalness is due to the Sibelius loudspeakers? as I sense I'm hearing than characteristic horned bass which is difficult
to achieve on many speakers
@@andrewtompkin6567 I think I would have to say that ‘yes’ 😀 But of course I am biased. Having said that, when our clients hear our loudspeakers for the first time, that’s exactly what they say “how natural and detailed everything sounds”. Thanks for showing so much interest in the topic
I have listened many DACs but they all were multibit oversampling Sigma/Delta DACs like these two. It would be interesting to compare them with R2R NOS DACs as the majority of people say that they sound better.
P.S. Your final words about the timbre, reverberations and acoustic music only confirm my opinion. The difference you found between SMSL and Topping (which youl liked more) is exactly the same as the difference between Technics SL-G700 M2 and DENON DCD2560GL. I told you about this in a previous video. The Technics' Sabre 9026 plays each tone and note with immaculate precision but somehow uniform and flat whilst the DENON's Burr Browns might not be that credible and defined but you hear the different strenght with which the musician hits the keybord. And this seems to be closer to the reality so i like it more. Eric Clapton "Unplugged" tracks Running on fate and Old love
Very interesting point. I do need to listen to some R2R dacs again. It's been a while and I really cannot remember the last time.
I have a vintage Parasound HD-1100 DAC with Two Burr-Brown PCM 63P-J 20 bit, push-pull for each channel and fully balanced digital operation. It's the most analog sounding DAC I have ever heard. It weights about 13lbs and has the following power supply config: 3 separate transformers and nine regulators for digital circuits and for each analog channel. DACs absolutely do make a difference and I need to find another Parasound to stash away as a backup!
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am sure your Parasound could be repaired if, God forbid, something went wrong with it.
Douk has new dac with both .. they took my idea but i wanted that design with 3 chips adding the chi chip 😮 but for low cost one can do honest comparison between these 2 chips 😊😊
Interesting!
.... maybe it's quite hard to distinguish between DAC chipsets nowadays, but I honestly would like to contradict Mr. Darko's opinion that differences between DACs are small.
The easily range in the same magnitude as cables, or maybe even amplifiers.
What might be true though is that all Delta-Sigma DACs with either ESS Sabre Chipsets or AKM chipsets sound the same, but other architectures do not.
(Chord, Mola Mola, R2R, ...)
Anyway, very nice video! Cheers
Thanks for sharing your kind appreciation. And for your observations. To be fair to Darko, I think he put it more or less as you do. I.e. there is a difference between DAcs but not as big as switching loudspeakers, for example. I think he was managing expectations to newcomers to the field.
There's more to a dac than just the chip set.
The quality of the input drivers and the analogue output drivers both make a difference. The bit that makes the biggest difference is often the power supply.
I have a Topping E30 that I use solely for TV duties. I have experimented with it playing music in a couple of properly high end systems. Using the standard plug-top smps the sound quality was good for the price but in the grand scheme of things a bit meh. I built a high quality linear power supply utilising a Sparkoslabs voltage regulator. The addition of this supply totally transformed the Topping into something quite spectacular.
@@nathanevans6277When I redid my listening room I purchased linear power supplies for as many devices as I could. That said, my impression is that SMPSs are getting better and better. Paul McGowan has stated that at some point PS Audio will probably start using switch mode power supplies.
@@PanAmStyle don't get me wrong, the smps I was referring to was a phone charger which came with an old phone. This is what Topping suggested for use with the E30.
The reason I built a linear supply is that I already had all the components left over from previous projects.
Another reason for building a linear supply is that my level of expertise in electronics is way short of that required to build a smps of a similar quality.
I have nothing against switching supplies, my power amps are Purifi Class-D with Hypex power supplies.
@@PanAmStyle I'm a big fan of PS Audio, though I don't own any of their products at the moment. (A power plant is on the horizon).
The reason they are going switch mode has probably got as much to do with legislation, environmental concerns and cost as it does sound quality.
That was interesting I like the akm and that 800 was smooth. The ESS I want to like but they sound unpleasantly detailed like those KEF LS50. Anyway my dacs are a bryston bda1 and a bda2. The bda2 has akm chips the 1 is crystal. I think 1 more lively 2 with akm pretty neutral and accurate. Ok thats it oh yeah cables do matter I got dh labs yum
Glad you enjoyed it
Thanks for the effort - I know how long these things take to set up properly. Compared to the 'Cycles' track being played directly from Qobuz, I hear a lot of noise and distortion in your recordings. And the bottom octave is simply non-existent. Perhaps it would have been better to record the outputs of the DACs directly into the input of the ADC and then level-match to the original?
Thanks for your comment and kind appreciation . Indeed it makes a lot of sense. Did you listen from the download files from our website?
@@PearlAcoustics Yes, I downloaded the 16/48 tracks from your website and compared with the original track on Qobuz, using a pair of Dan Clark headphones. I think doing this gives a really good idea of how the whole playback system (including room) affects the sound. But I do hear differences between your recordings themselves. These things are always difficult to describe in words, but the ESS seems to sound more 'incisive', and the AKM and Sugden progressively 'softer'. Thanks once again for sharing your recordings.
@@manisandher you’re very welcome. Thanks for sharing your findings in so much detail.
Golden advice, look for a used D70s 2x akm4497, linear power supply, OPA1612. You would not lose any details and add a little warmth and bigger soundstage. I use it also with the PRE90 👌🏻 thanks for the nice tracks 😊
Cool, thanks for the advice and your kind words
I have an example of where the same dac chips didn't sound the same. My wiim pro+ and SU-1 jave the same AKA chipset. Out of the box with standard usb phone charger power supplies there was not a large difference in sound and the SU-1 went to my bookshelf. I later added a ifi ipower2 power supply which improved both dacs but more so with the SU-1 which presented a wider soundstage and better instrument separation.
That’s interesting, thanks for sharing.
Power supply is extremely important in all audio.
The D90 Mk III sounds OK, a bit on the hot side IMO and I don't think I could listen to it for extended periods, that Sugden on the other hand beats them all.
I downloaded the original uncompressed files from the Pearl Acoustics site and listened to them over my own D90s (I have the original one with AKM and the D90III with Sabre). The 'hotness' you here IMO has more to do with the CZcams compression than with the D90.
If you really want to hear the original quality, download those files yourself. CZcams is not a good measuring stick.
Glad you liked the Sugden, but as Andy says below... If you have not done so already, try listening again to the original WAV files. It's interesting to see how that changes things. The Sugden is nice though, I must say.
The sudden will not be as high performing dac. If it was they would post the measurements on their website.
@@r423sdex Better measurements do not always equate to a better sounding piece of gear.
@@tl9756yes apparently, but only in the audiophile world.
While I appreciate the effort in exporting the wav files to get rid of the CZcams compression, are we really hearing what you are hearing? Aren’t we just listening to how our own DACs process these files? It doesn’t mean we can’t hear differences, but I do not think anyone should be making qualitative judgments based on how their DAC is processing your different DAC test files.
Thanks for your comment. Absolutely. These recordings were made in room with a very simple microphone array, which will have a massive impact in the sound. This exercise is just uk see if people can detect differences, not how they might sound in their systems. The idea of uploading is to circumnavigate CZcams compression only.
But preamp/amp mess with the decoded signal? It's really hard to tell and hard to spend that much just because some figures tested beyond human hearing limit, doubt we really care about the difference even we can hear it...I did see that a lot of people prefer AKM chips based DAC, include me lol a long term user of Fostex HP-A3, so there is some handlings done the DAC after all...
Thanks for your contribution to the topic.
Wonderful stuff xx
Thanks!
Gosh! Not much in it imho. I really couldn't call it between th Topping and the SMSL. The Sugden was maybe just a hint more veiled than the other two. There was a difference between the two Toppings - but not much given the price difference. Of course all the above had to pass through my own dac before reaching my ears so it may be easier to discern the subtleties in the original setups.
Hi Barry, thanks for sharing your findings. Did you listen with the original Wav files from the website? I found that the compression on CZcams masked so much (as expected), and of course, the room mics are not the same as human ears…. Thanks again.
Hmmm... on youtube, I liked Sugden the best!
Indeed, but I do advise downloading the WAV files…. they are very different (much more information and far less distortion)
the difference in DAC should not be heard, but seen. subtract one DAC from another using the same sources (and align the time scale of course). eyes are more objective than ears. I always want to do this but I can't find the time :)
Thanks for your comment. Well now you can simply go to our website and download the sample tracks and see if you can hear the differences between the Dac’s. And you can do it without looking at them! Enjoy
Any thoughts or observations regarding the size of the soundstage? Differences in depth? I found that the ESS-based DAC I had (Eversolo Z8) had a smaller stage compared to my current R2R-based one (Ares II), with the Z8 the stage was mostly between the speakers and now it often stretches to the outside of the speakers. Depth is also much improved, so much so that I can't go back to the flatter sort. Also great difference in tone. Curious about your findings on this Harley! :) Btw I listened to a few of the clips, the SMSL sounds more organic and real than the Topping to my ears, the topping more clean.
Hi Filip, thanks for sharing your findings. To be honest, I did not notice a big difference in the soundstages (maybe I was too busy comparing the tonal quality). All I can say is that in the listening room, we have nice wide and deep soundstages from each of the DACS, way beyond left and right of the loudspeakers. For serious comparison with my sound clips (which are still far inferior than being in the room) I think you need to listen to the WAV files, as the CZcams compression, seems to negatively impact the Topping D90, more than the others.
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks for the reply! I can imagine the stages of the SMSL and Topping being similar, sounds like they're both great in this regard. They are at least one step up from my old Z8 so no wonder they seem to perform better. I actually downloaded the Cycles-clips, listened via my B&W PX7 S2. The difference in tone and character is clear. It's interesting, I think, how the tone plays such a huge part (at least for me) in what I prefer. What gives me an emotional response is not always what sounds objectively better. Comparing these files the SMSL drew me in to the music in a way the Topping didn't. Don't know why. Which is fascinating in itself!
@@filipviljamaasvensson absolutely! There’s nothing rational in this hobby of ours!
Inferior channel separation can induce a false (not in the recording) exaggeration of stereo width (and thus depth). R2r is like tubes, if you like its effects, great, but they are indeed effects, they are objectively inferior in accuracy and linearity. The higher distortion components are different in each channel, which increases a vague sense of space, a mild stereo effect.
Sorry, audioscience is not to take seriously. "If it measures the same, it sounds the same" is nonsense. Especially, if you just take three values to qualify equipment. Scores are just for consumer, giving them the feeling they can make valuable decision. That is nonsense too. More important than the chip itself is the implementation, like power supply and output stage. I just switched from using the dac inside the buchhard i150 to Laif Harmony. A difference in sq that is hard to descibe, but amazing.
It always comes to the same: listen for some time to the new equipment, than turn back to the old one and if you do not hear a difference, send the new back.
Best Ulrich
Hi Ulrich, no ‘sorry’ needed. I do like your common sense approach! However…. (I have just come back to my original comment to edit it) I really do appreciate the work Amir does. I think it’s very useful to see how a piece of kit measures (2nd and 3rd order harmonics etc.) but I only see this as a Gide to its technical prowess. How it actually sounds, is something completely different) that’s why I agree that eventually it comes down to pragmatism and actually listening with ones ears. Preferably in one’s own listening space. Thanks for sharing
ASR is a cult. I worked my way up from low end to high end DACs by listening, not measuring. Of course they sound different and they match differently with specific amps and power supplies. Something very simple to "hear for" when testing a DAC is width of sound stage. Some sound more focused, some extend the stage right in front you. I have no idea how it works but it does.
DAC s and amplifiers are so good now that imo the differences are really difficult to distinguish in a double blind test. It’s somehow like those blind tests for wines were very expensive wines are described with very sophisticated flavours like smoked plums, fresh basil fragrance, black pepper, fruity freshness etc and the sommelier is picking as the best wine a 10Eur bottle of wine instead of the 1000 Eur bottle 😂. Imo the most dramatic changes are coming from the room acoustic, specially the Reverberation Time 60 parameter , bass management and of course the loudspeakers. And if room treatment isn’t possible then getting the bass ‘stress ‘out of the speakers into a subwoofer via a dsp with room correction is the second most effective way to get a very clear improvement. Thanks for sharing, your reviews and expertise are always informative, inspirational and good food for thought.
@@nick_yt23 Not a wine expert here but are you trying to say they all taste the same? LOL, not at all. Try a Tignanello.
@@nick_yt23 you’re very welcome Nick. Glad you appreciate them. Thanhs too for your interesting comment
Which one do you think has the best 3D rendition and the best treatment of the armonics of the acoustic instruments?
I personally would say the Topping but the Sugden sounds ‘nicer’ - this is probably due to its output stage. I can easily live with all three!
@@PearlAcoustics as far as I can judge from the files the sugden is undeniably the most refined.
Could you review the SPL Marc One?
I will put it on the list, but no promises! ;-)
I have to ask even if you perhaps cannot do an A/B comparison, is the Topping in the same level as the Mola Mola Tambaqui? It too measures superb but cost a lot more then the Topping.
For the Pre-amplifier, I would say 'yes', for the DAC - there is something very special going on with the Mola-Mola DAC. It's hard to put one's finger on. But the price of the Mola-Mola, puts it out of my budget! ;-)
TDA1541A S2
AKM sound a little less "body" compare to those two, D90 more "noises" D10 little "harsher"
Thanks for sharing
This goes to show that you dont need to spend massive amounts on a DAC to get a great sound.
Indeed!
@@PearlAcoustics people spending 10k on say a chord dave ,dcs etc or even 45k on a greek made one ,ideon,should think again,sota performance under 1k.......
@@user-es3hq5zk4e hi, thanks so much for your comment. I agree, for 1000EUR you can purchase a very accurate digital to audio converter. So I get your point but hifi is like the watch industry. Very few people buy a watch purely to know what time it is. And some pay enormous amounts of money because the object they are buying matches their lifestyle.