Babel fees via limited liabilities
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2022
- In this video Polina Vinogradova, IOG's research engineer walks us through the Babel Fees - a novel mechanism that allows the payment of transaction fees in user-defined tokens on Cardano.
Find out more about Babel Fees here: iohk.io/en/blog/posts/2021/02... - Věda a technologie
This is what good engineering is all about. Clean, simple, efficient. Great work!
Babel fees are very clever. Should open the door for a lot of important possibilities.
Ummm, with Polina’s overview, Babel fees mechanism came immediately to earth. Outstanding explanation.🙌🏻
Awesome! Great to see Cardano continuously innovating.
Thank you for going this deep. Was waiting updates on Babel Fees for a while now.
00:27 The problem
01:30 The solution
02:13 Cardano's Fee Mechanism Review
05:27 Related Work
06:50 Why Babel Fees
09:07 Multi-Asset Representation
10:20 2 of the main Contributions of Babel Fees research
10:33 Batch Validity
11:40 Example in practice
15:12 Spot Market
17:57 Other Applications of Limited Liabilities
19:55 Next Steps (things that need to be worked out)
21:48 Next Steps (after R&D is done)
Great work, great explanation. Well done, Polina !
Wonderful introduction to Babel fees!
Ergo is also adding Babel fees as their EIP-31, so we'll soon see a broader adoption of Babel fees soon.
ADA ERG best secure innovative chains.
Babel fees are a game changer. When are we likely to see it implemented?
First I have looked at babel, very well explaned.
That's thorough yet not tiring. Great work IOG, that's a really comprehensive explanation and visualization.
Absolutely amazing overview!
SUPER clever. engineers doing the solid work once again. nice solution building!
I was so excited when I first heard of babel fees last year. This is exactly as I was seeing them done - excellent work! Now just to solve DDoS issue discussed at 19:57 excellent work as this will set Cardano apart from any other Layer 1 blockchain that I know of.
Very insightful. I can see lots of evolution possibilities with these modifications.
Considering how complicated this topic is, the presentation was amazingly clear. The only thing I didn't understand was why "Calvin" would want to pay for game tokens with ADA and what fee he would have to pay for doing so. Conceptually, the swap of game tokens for ADA has nothing to do with the game tokens for swords, so how do the two get connected?
Looks a bit like muesliswap is getting integrated on-chain! This still depends on a vivid fee market. As long as no one wants to fulfill the liabilities your transactions either don"t get built or need to get cancelled after a long time pending.
Thanks, amazing engineering brilliantly communicated
Super explanation on Babel fees
Awesome concept, something that will increase the quality of UX immensely!
Brilliant engineering thinking by the way!
Thank you!
Great work.
Really cool!
Great insight .
That is brilliant!!!
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This probably also enables flash loans and block producer extractable value.... Tricky stuff
Interesting, can you explain more.
well you can create a contract to pay off liabilities for future expectation. People sure like to pay for future expectations and it does seems to produce value
@@borwornpanklang7841 in the video you notice that the feature can be used for an Atomic swap, say -5000 ada with 100000 min tokens, you do that inline with a sell order on minswap of 100000min for the 5000 ada your 'borrowing'... You're basically draining the minswap pool with other people's money, now the pool has shifted it's value and your original min tokens have a higher value on that pool
@@RodolfoHansen well someone has to be willing to supply the tokens, a good oracle isn't gonna gonna let the price too far too fast
@@magnusred2945 indeed, so now you as a block producer see this pending transaction in the mempool and you can front run it by putting your own independent transaction ahead of time to skew the pool in your favor... Maybe someone else has tried to buy min tokens and you beat both of them to the pool before it gets depleted
What I'm trying to say is that this enables an independent market where there are asymmetries of power, increasing the power block producers have and ways they can manipulate transactions
Shots fired! 💥💥💥
Wooowh! You really assumed your role to present what Charles has just Tweeted ..."Babel is the future" 👏😊
I need to watch this again to understand it.
Is then like on-chain DEX?
Very well presented and atomic swap limited liabilities are a great idea! 🔥
I don't particularly understand why there needs to be a fee pool though. I get that it must be related to prevent dust from the rewards and I could see why an implementation might limit to that design. But from a mechanism point of view, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to distribute block rewards on each block if the possibility was available. Perhaps it is in the design docs.
I would think it's because stake pools/stakeholders are paid out by snapshots at end of epoch. I'd guess it would take enormous amount of processing power to calculate rewards in a block by block manner, as Cardano's staking is not locked and remains fluid.
All guesses though
@@michaelphillips5756 true 👍 block validation in epoch N is evaluated against the stake distribution and registration set at the end of epoch N-2. So while stake remains fluid, the processing of stake snapshots shouldn't be much more than recording the times when a (parent block) -> (child block) association crosses an epoch boundary.
What if no one wanted to trade for liability? It will sit in mempool till its resolved in the future ?
is it possible that there are no block operator to accept the offered fees rates to cover the debt?
Are limited liabilities kind of like flash loans?
Thats what I was thinking too! Very similar to flash loans
Looks interesting. I do have a few questions.
What if a block producer goes down (along with its mempool)? Will another producer pick it up? How big is the impact of the "Pot fees" on a block? Do we need to increase the block size? Will TPS decrease because of this?
Would like to hear your thoughts on this whenever you have time :)
Transactions are broadcasted via p2p to the whole network so one block producer going down is no issue. The worst case would be that you have to re-broadcast your transaction.
I keep hearing “the pee pot” 😂
Great overview. Typo in presentation "Prospective" users rather than "Perspective"?
Cool video, In the future would it be possible to add quick screenshots of code snippets aswell? To show how to implement what the video presenter is talking about?
definitely there will be something.
If not from IOG then for sure from Catalyst proposals
Omg gameover to others this is just crazy, and if i remember pools could get theses fees in different token for instance eth + ada 😇
How do Alice and Bob both sign the same transaction (before it reaches the mempool)? Aren't they at different locations on different devices?
Does it hurt ada value?
for the transactions that never close and accumulate: couldn't you have a maximum time those can live? maybe proportional to the fee they want to pay to maintain the batch open.
yes of course, this can be implemented in the off chain environments using smart contracts
I'm guessing that it would still open the possibility for limited time congestion.
TTL (Time To Live) already exists in Cardano transactions, if they are not confirmed in the time window then the transaction can simply be cancelled free of charge
14:20 where do the additional 5 ada from calvin go and why are now in sum 10 ada payed in fees? shouldn't calvin pay the 5 ada liability only and get the 5 game coins i.e. remain with 10 ada?
That's just how UTXOs work. It's the same as paying for coffee with a $20 bill and getting change.
I agree. Calvin sends in 15 ada. The exchange rate is 1-1. In the example Calvin gets back 5 ada and 5 game coins, which mean he just screwed himself out of 5 ada.
Wow bet metaverse will love this
Would this be considered for the next hard fork?
Nvm seems pretty far off. Hope we can get the CIP soon
Thank you, but why haven't you made this video earlier?
😎
Something seems wrong on the diagram? Calvin had 15 ADA before and end ups with 5 ADA and 5 game coins, so he payed 10 ADA for the 5 game coins, which is double the price…. That doesn’t seem right…
Few.
❤️🇸🇪
Looks like the one who paid the fees is doing it at a loss
Great engineering work, I Would love to see iohk find ways around the impermanent loss on dexs
Would be a game changer if done right 🙏🙌
Alice and Bob would still need Ada in their wallets though, as Swords and Gamecoins are native tokens within Ada eUTXOs, correct? This could be invisible to Alice and Bob inside their game of course.
nope, they'll just need swords and gamecoins in their cardano wallet
all utxos will be paid in ada but alice and bob wont need any ada as long as there are stake pool exchange offers covering both swords and gamecoins
@@elduderino7767 He's right, each utxos requires a minimum amount of ADA depending on its size. However this would be covered by babel fees as well.
@@philippelelong2101 no, they wont need ada in their wallets, read the 2nd paragraph
@@elduderino7767 which paragraph do you mean?
Babel fees will not get rid of the min utxo requirement. It's a spam protection so you don't create thousands of utxos with shittokens on them which bloat the ledger. I'm not talking about transaction fees.
@@philippelelong2101 min utxo requirement is part of the transaction fee, babel will cover those as well
🤔
Wen vasil tho? A date? Why no transparency !
29 july. Watch the last development video the team mention it in that video
They want 80% of exchanges and program builders in general to upgrade through testnet before upgrading.
@@Swordmaster7th yeah I know that! That was stated in there mid month update. I didn’t see a confirmed date for the 29th! Where can I find it?
I don't get this att all. What problem are you solving? A user don't want to pay in ADA of that is the reason is not valid. Why make this so complex for nothing!
And ask the talk about block producer. What chain? So much confusing things. Better to have graphical images then text.
because cardano is a L1 system with a vast amount of tokens, platforms and ecosystems, it enables participants to operate within their own ecosystem built on cardano without ever needing to worry about ADA or cardano
people can use platforms without needing to know it's built on cardano, dealing with other assets they aren't interested in and figuring out exchange rates just so they can use a specific ecosystem
it's the opposite of complex, it simplifies the user experience on any ecosystem built on cardano dramatically
ada = 💩
this is the best shit
I know, ada is the shit.
Please produce a 22 minute video of your own with graphics explaining your objective here so we can comment on it.
Are limited liabilities kind of like flash loans?