Tech Talk 21: Selecting Tweeters
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- čas přidán 27. 02. 2020
- In this episode, Danny Richie tackles the topic of tweeter selection! What Audiophiles need to know!
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You need way more subscribers, this channel is gold.
Truth!! Real Engineering & there's no Political drama or folks Twerking!! 😂✌
You get right down to meat w/ less excess, sometimes confusing rhetoric. Super! As always, Thank You Danny.
@@202One Indeed!
Yes, this channel is gold, subscribed....... and the channel is only for analytical brains, not for normal people :)
i was looking at my previous post where i went directly to my correction to you about Hertz and realized that i neglected to state my respect for your work here benefiting us with your excellent presentations. all done with humility and the integrity of a true scientist. thank you for that.
...hifitommy
Thanks for your efforts in making the complex appear simple. Cheers from Oz
I use the B-G Neo 8S in a line array with an open baffle. Eight of them per side, crossed over at 300 Hz and 6.5 kHz. Love the sound, very clear, detailed, and transparent.
This video is really cool! I really like the explanation of different types of tweeters and applications and the frequency ranges!
Enjoyed the video and well done. Significantly better than a recent video from Axiom. They are all in on metal dome tweeters and get the impression everything else just won't do.
I'd love to hear you discuss horns.
This is really informative DR!! I have total respect for how truthful you are when it comes to audio. Recently picked up a couple of Rythmik F12G subs, so can related to how much you strive for excellence. I am using a 3 way horn design - 15” Lomo Kinap Woofer, Altec Lansing 288K loaded with a Lecleach wooden horn and a Fountek Ribbon tweeter crossed quite high (just for the transient shimmer). I want to try your tweeters, the Neos I believe. Would you recommend that change making any improvements to my speaker set? Thanks a lot for your contributions to the audio world!!
Thanks, Danny. Great video. I enjoy building speakers, and I've found the tweeter to be the most difficult to tune to the speaker. This gives me a better idea of the proper application. I'll email you if I have a question. I promise not to write an autobiography!
Love my Beyma TPL150H. Best tweeter so far and I tried a lot! Transparent, low TDH, hi efficiency, tons of headroom and dynamic.
Great tweeters.
agree, i have TPL200, tested many cheaper options , nothing beats Beyma AMT
Very nice!
Curious, is it arrayed, waveguided, or front loaded?
Any additional build info you can share?
Got a BG Neo tweeter in a naked dipole (no baffle) with the rear cup removed . They really sound very good that way , very airy . I also have a similar , more expensive naked dipole with acoustic elegance 12 inch (2x) dipole woofer in a H-frame , 2 wavecore 5 inch paper cone midranges and a Mundorf AMT dipole tweeter in a naked dipole d'Appolito config . Fully active with Hypex amps . More expensive but sounding even better
Excellent and accurate information.
Excellent discussion on Elac 2.0
Thx
Larry
I really enjoyed this info ....I've been a HUGE fan of Planar Magnetics since I discovered the PTC2C-8 from Dayton - this was the tweeter developed by the legend, Bob Carver, and used in the Sunfire Cinema series.. Recently GRS (Dayton) has a new line of planars that are basically the same design as the B&G but at 1/3 the cost so HAPPY DAYS I now have the 10 inch planars in my new desktop DIY with dual Arum Cantus 5's ...as you've stated the stage is massive and clear .I m in audio paradise
Thanx for the info. Excellent video. The ribbons in my Martin Logans are awesome sounding. 🎵
Milo was
Thank you for the expert information. I have enjoyed all the videos! The more I watch the less I know - LOL. Keep it up!
Great series Danny, I have just discovered these recently. I am very critical of midrange, have you covered them yet? Particularly for a three way design?
Excellent explanations. Thanks
Thank you. This was very informative.
The old Foster ribbons that Speakerlab used had magnets on both sides of the ribbon plus a protective screen.
Focals tweeters cover 5 Octaves - 1000Hz - 40kHz
It seems my choice is between planar magnetic and dome drives. My current tweeters emphisize too much 8kHz and close to midrange frequencies whereas the bookshelf speaker boxes of my stereo mini-system are much better in this regard. I even thought about connecting these bookshelf speaker boxes to my main sound system, since it has great subwoofers, thus they would only be in charge of midrange and high frequencies. Excellent video.
What is your opinion on the Heil Air Motion Transformer tweeter design?
(Pro and Con)
Excellent and informative video on the specifics of tweeter designs.
Thanks!
The tweeter in the Legacy Whispers on Stereophile back on '96 was not a ribbon. They originally came out with Panasonic leaf tweeters. Then as time went by, and supply diminished, they went with planer drivers. That photo has a planer type driver in it. And as you know, the membrane of planers is close to the front of the driver.
What are your thoughts on the old school DCM Co-axially mounted tweeters? These are hard domed tweeters that are mounted on top of a mid-bass driver but are separated by a series of "diffraction" metal mesh plates. This is so the vibrations from the mid-bass to do not vibrate the tweeter and vice versa. The idea being to transmit both high and mid frequencies together in one wave as would be the case from an actual vocal chord.
Hi. new to your channel and love it. real quick question: i have some Epos ES14s and am about to replace the 3mfd Alcap foil cap cap on the tweeter with a good polyprop but i can only find 3.3mfd will this make any difference? also if i uprated the tweeter would i still use the same cap for it to match the woofer? many thanks for any advice.
So the one where he goes "Wow!" is probably the one to get. :p
Seriously though, I was gifted an old (approx mid/late 90's) Phillips DVD all-in-one surround system a few years ago that was one of their higher end ones when new. When I got it the amp and sub were trash. The satellites though consist of a small mid-range speaker and a neodymium ribbon tweeter. I connected them to a Yamaha amp with a new sub attached to use as my office computer speaker system. My god the sound. Playing a lossless audio file surrounded by the 4 sat's at higher volumes is just amazing, I couldn't believe it. I can't imagine what really high end ones like Danny is showing must sound like.
Great upload, thank you!
How would you describe the difference between different materials in the dome tweeters; silk, aluminum, titanium, ceramic, etc. What are the most common sound characteristics that are often attributed to those choices, and what to look for?
uhh stiffness? stiffer material usually leads to less distortion
I'd be curious to hear what you think of the Linaeum TLS tweeter. I have a pair of Linaeum TL1000 speakers that have a 6" high monopole tweeter that is crossed over at about 440Hz. It is efficient at about 95-96 dB at 1w. The large surface area is good for moving air, while it seems to keep pretty wide horizontal dispersion because it acts narrower as the frequency goes up?
The planar magnetic tweeters are intriguing - you mentioned they can go lower than many tweeters, but you didn't say how low.
Thanks for the video very entertaining learning is nice!
Tweeter Tech Talk in a Corvette C2 T-Shirt? Immediate thumbs up!
Yeah, I am a corvette guy. And my Dad and I do a little drag racing with some of ours.
@@dannyrichie9743 nice, same here
Hey Danny, another awesome video.
How is it that a magnetic field has any effect on an aluminum ribbon?
I have the raven's r1 in my speakers and they are excellent.
I have a set of the GR Research N3s as LCR that use the planar magnetic tweeter. They are phenomenal. I cant say enough good things about my speakers and I have not had the itch to replace because i cant afford the speakers that would be an upgrade.
Hi Danny, I have a pair of small Realistic 40-1310 bullet super tweeter. What do you think about this components? Great video.
Thank you Danny!
I have watched about 10 of your videos and have already learned a ton about loudspeakers.
I would be very interested in your professional and/or educational background, that is what is it that makes your knowledge about loudspeakers so enormous?
I want to buy an X-Static open baffle kit but I wonder if you can get them with the same ribbon tweeters as in the NX-Otica?
No, if you want that tweeter then you have to step up to the NX series models.
Good and interesting video as always. But you didn't cover the horn tweeter? All the stuff from Klipsch...
The material is important as well as the magnegt, one of the best tweeters reproducing air was the one used on the JBL L-112 that was a phenolic with an aluminum coating, the B&W 802 S3 oalso have a excellent tweeter, I also use to like but is sadly discontinued the Vifa D25AG-35-06 used on many speakers like the Vandersteen but the best tweeter I have heard was the Dynaudo T330 Esotar, wao that was a perfect sweet sounding tweeter with the ability to reproduce much air because it gives extension to 13 khz flat, most soft dome tweeters fail because they roll of at 10 khz and with my hearing going to 13 khz yet I notice the diference
I like the JBL 2405
@@m0wao690 I have a pair of 2405 and a pair of 2402 both great and the stupid harman discontinued the replacement diagphram those SOTB, only chineese substitute OMG
Would it be wise to add an extra planer tweeter open baffle to a Magnepan LRS?. The LRS rolls of after 11KHz.
Could you give me some thoghts on the BG RD75? I have a pair on my hands, and am curious about what I could expect from these with a line of nine 8" drivers on the side in dipole.
Is it hard to design a speaker with planar tweeter? Anything i should consider? How mutch baffle boost bass around 50hz?
Another huge tradeoff with pure ribbons for example is electrically - the impedance is almost a dead short. You have to design the crossover around this either with resistors (which can rob the sound) or a audio-specific transformer that allows high frequencies to pass through while altering the load. Some of these off-the-shelf ribbon tweeters will have a tiny transformer embedded (as well as a capacitor to block low frequencies) but it's all a trade off. Planar magnetic speakers (or multi-segment ribbons backed by a film) can be divided up into a larger voice coil giving an easier load but at the cost of sound quality (some say you can "hear" the film) as a pure ribbon is "godly" to some.
I am choosing between the SB acoustics Satori TW29RN-B-8 and the Visaton KE 25 SC. To pair with a SB acoustics Satori 6,5" woofer. Does anyone have any experience with one of these two?
how important do you think the high range extension is?- I know i cannot hear above 12.5-13kHz- many other people lose the ability to hear above 15k in their teens. I tested for fun a 18 year old who used in ear devices and he couldn't hear above 10 khz........
What do you think about sapphrie tweeters?
Scanspeak d3004 be tweeter. Is it real beryllium? Comparison bs the focal be tweeter. 640 a pair bs 1800 a pair. Any thoughts on these 2 tweeters?
What is your take on ring radiators ? More so SB Acoustics ?
SB makes nice drivers.
Great video, lots of info, but...where are ring radiators?
Do the planar tweeters offer the same level of dynamics as the cone tweeters? I build three way active systems and discovered by eliminating the passive crossover a big improvement in dynamics of my speakers, and would not want to lose any of that. Also, would a planar tweeter work well in an active system, that is, absent any passive crossover parts in line with it?
Planar magnetic tweeters offer a great level of dynamics that can even exceed that on most cone types. And what you are doing upstream won't change any of that.
@@dannyrichie9743 So you can drive them directly from an amp's output with no crossover components in line with them?
@@SpeakerBuilder No, they still need a passive filter.
@@dannyrichie9743I assume a high pass filter capacitor in series, as would be needed with a ribbon tweeter.
Danny, would be interesting to learn your opinion about new sealed ribbon tweeters GRT-145 made by Viawave. Especially about a waveguide model.
I haven't used them. They look a lot like the Raven or Aruim Cantus models.
@@dannyrichie9743 You are right. They do look a lot like the Raven or Aurum Cantus models. But they are in fact quite different in design and performance.
A quote from the well known DIY speaker kits designer Troels Gravesen: "The "thing" about this ribbon tweeter is that the gaps between the ribbon and poles of magnets are sealed with a U-shaped mylar suspension, thus reducing air turbulence, increasing sensitivity and reducing distortion. And it works! This ribbon tweeter delivers some of the best highs I've had, regardless of brand, principle and price. The naturalness of cymbals, violins, whatever is astonishing. Put the best money can buy in front of it - and it delivers."
The author of this patented design suggests a possibility of a second order crossover use @ 2000Hz and even a first order crossover @ 2500Hz (for a waveguide version).
On top of that many users reported that the sealed ribbon itself is way more robust and wind-resilient in comparison with the regular "free-hanging" ribbons.
I was wondering if you have ever looked at the big AMT drivers, as sold by ESS.
Yes.
Do bullet tweeters help off axis HF response? If so why not just use 50mm (2") bullet tweeters with good LF response?
My very first speakers were Pioneer HPM-40's with a ribbon "super-tweeter" whose crossover point was 10kHz. I probably wouldn't even be able to hear that super-tweeter today. I fried one of them one night by overdriving it. It's death was quite the show: sparks flying out in the dark! In fairness, I was probably putting stupidly high power through it.
Stage accompany...dutch firm. Best ribbon ive heard so far...1kw at 1khz!!! Not a typo....and over 100 db efficient!
The best tweeter frequency range seems to be the expensive ones.. like Morel for example...
What are your thoughts on 2" and 3" dome midrange drivers
Some are great, and some are not.
WHERE IS THE
Peerless by Tymphany XT25TG30-04????
I had some of those on hand. I should have included them.
awesome
How about a compression driver with a horn?
What about plasma and diamond tweeter?
Some of the best tweeters I've heard were "large" diamond tweeters.
Large cone surface?
had listening session on plasma tw, not liking.. strange sound nothing impresive, i better like bayma TPL200. much more pleasant sounding tweeter especialy via jupiter copper
capacitor. also in this tweeter selection it was like a technical review, but which is good sounding i didnt heard... personalu i prefer AMT, dome tweeters are outmached IMO...
@@hadleymanmusic 30mm Accutone diamond tweeter.
Plasma tweeter is way to cumbersome, plus you ionize the air it’s not pleasant..
is beryllium driver sound more realistic than soft dome tweeter.thanks
No.
I believe those are actually neodymium magnets.
Do you offer shipping to uk
All the time.
According To Your Listening Experienced Which Is The Best In The Best Among These Twitter Drivers ?
allison accoustic style ? you did not mention ! convex teeters !
Cool.
Mij infinity Kapppa 7a Emit tweeter stille running great
so is my kappa 7.1
begun cowball don’t confuse the 7.1 with a 7...
totally different
Well Danny, I am a fan of your knowledge but you did it again!🤪🤯 Compression driver/tweeter!🤔😬 Are you that much against compression drivers like used it the JBL Evererst, M2's or Klipsch Heritage Horn speakers? And ofcourse I am talking a true compression driver not a waveguide pretending to be a horn!😇🤔😇
I've used some and found some that I liked. They have their place, but don't make my list of favorites. This one was really good with the back opened up: www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73341.0
Ribbon tweeter:
2:29 crack of a cymbal captured well
5:19 crack of a cymbal not captured well. I would agree with the former?!.
Can you tell me about the B&W diamond tweeter please
有些全统軟膜半球型高音也好靚声，音响嘅野不同以貌取人
我用惠威D28
I don't know if it's the roll of the tongue but I keep hearing neodyNium when its neodyMium. Ribbon tweeters rule btw...
There is an excellent and tough ribbon tweeter that goes to 1Khz...and more than 1kilowatt...at more than 100db/watt at I meter.
You know it?
so basically this video was a firmly delivered "yes and no" in the spirit of King Salomon?^^
Don't get me wrong, i never heard or read anybody explaining this so detailed yet patient, without me feeling like a complete chump for not or understanding or knowing it in the first place, and then concluding with something everybody should be able to live with!
I salute you, sir
PS i still feel a wee bit guilty about my comment when you talked about your music collection - the dark side is just so tempting and easy
Why are tweeters round even if the thing itself is rectangular.
Why don't you talk about compression drivers?
With your accent, when you say "dome" tweeter, it sounds like you're saying "dumb" tweeter. Haha! Many people would agree...
The chrome dome ear annoying metal tweeters i hate JL audio kinda fixed that using a rubber surround around the metal dome it made them a lot smoother without the ring most metal dome tweeters have they are not harsh.
Personally i hate metal dome tweeters more then horns. Give me silk, or ribbon or stats any day.
Infinity made some ribbon tweeters
For car audio for a wile. They sounded good but did not last.
once again i need to elucidate why there is no such frequency expression as a Hert. the man's name is Hertz who did a lot of research about vibration. second is the fact that the expression usually includes kHz which truly means THOUSAND Hz which is certainly more than 1Hz which equals ONE cycle per second, still expressed as Hertz because of Mr. Heinrich Rudolf Hertz for whom the study of vibration is named.
this should only be viewed as a minor criticism of this series of YTs produced by GR Research. i am in great respect of the series as it is hugely informative and i look forward to each one i view.
this episode revealed to me how fragile ribbon technology is and their limitations in leading-edge response. i was formerly of the belief that they excelled in that parameter. now i am wondering if the top end transient response should be enhanced by maybe a very small (0.5") dome tweeter to provide the lacking leading-edge performance mentioned.
i have been a fan of loudspeakers utilizing ribbon tweeters, even those that engage them for midrange performance. Danny, can you elucidate on this subject?
...hifitommy
K
M
Byni 16G
B
H
Danny, I know that it's the rage these days to refer to horns as waveguides, but they are horns, not waveguides. Horns act as acoustical transformers because of their flare, waveguides have consistent cross sections and only guide waves, they do not have any impedance matching properties. Acoustic waveguides are used in transmission line speakers.
Stewart,
The geometry of the waveguide controls the upper & lower frequency range *and* the direction of the output by the source. The source, in our case, is a loudspeaker driver (any type of woofer, midrange, or tweeter). There are many types of waveguides including horns, transmission lines, open baffles, etc.
Horn geometry controls the acoustical impedance to increase the power efficiency of the waveguide. Horns often introduce adverse effects to the frequency, directivity, and/or phase response of waveguides unless *very* carefully designed, manufactured, and installed.
Horns are best applied for sound reinforcement in large venues where lots of acoustical output is necessary. Higher quality sound in a more cost-effective package is available for HiFi applications - as Danny points out in this video. Hope this helps!
@@hmcgrath100 Thanks for the response. I have to conceed that horns are indeed waveguides that have an additional property of impedance matching. But I can't see how an open baffle speaker has any waveguide properties.
I also agree that horns have to be very carefully designed and built. But I think they are worth the effort as the increased sensitivity and lower distortion make the sound much more lifelike than direct radiator designs.
@@StewartMarkley OBs are waveguides *because* they shape the frequency and directivity of the installed drivers.
With respect to horns, the concept is "keep it simple". If a horn is unecessary, don't use it *because* they will add complexity (potential problems) and expense to the design.
Planar magnetic designs are very nice indeed *because* they are able to operate over a wide frequency range and are plenty high in sensitivity for home hi-fi use; i.e. they will get as loud as you like!
Hoyt McGrath I think it’s a stretch to say the OBs shape the frequency response and directivity of the drivers, I doubt you would find much change in these parameters whether the drivers were mounted in a baffle or not given the small dimensions of the baffles. I maybe wrong but I don’t think that the baffles are adjusted or tailored to achieve a given frequency response or directivity.
Another benefit of horns besides sensitivity is their more narrowed dispersion which reduces some of the sound energy that gets reflected off of walls, floors and ceilings which minimizes the acoustic effects of the room yielding a greater direct to reflected sound ratio which in most cases is very beneficial.
I guess I will have to add that good horn designs these days do not have to be expensive. Just look at the Klipsch and JBL speakers that are comparing very well to similarly priced direct radiator speakers of excellent design. Any of these will be less costly than planar magnetic designs with wide frequency response, meaning down to the woofer crossover frequency. I am not against planar magnetic transducers but they are more costly than other designs, assuming the use of good drivers anyway.
Stewart Markley
The baffle (flat board) undoubtedly shapes the directivity *and* limits the frequency range of the mounted driver’s output. Narrow baffles less than wide baffles. But they still affect the directivity and limit the frequency range of the output. *by definition*. See Wikipedia for an understandable definition.
Horns, like waveguides, may be *designed* to shape the directivity of the driver’s output. But not necessarily so. As stated previously, it is extremely important for the polar (off-axis) frequency response of the woofer/mid and tweeter to be very similar to each other at the frequency range *near* the crossover point or there will be phase cancellation issues with even the best crossover design. The horn/waveguide design (or lack thereof) should take this into account. ✌️
Divorced the wife, bought a new ribbon !
Did she suck the last one out with the vacuum?
I think some real measurements in a real baffle is all we really need. We need to know the vertical and horizontal dispersion, together with on axis frequency response, max spl, distortion vs frequency at various levels, impedance, resonance frequency, sensitivity, efficiency etc etc.
Avoid the fs!
Excellent info......................Ill never buy a ribbon tweeter.
I like ribbon tweeters and soft dome tweeters, but I hate air motion tweeters. The squeezing effect to make the sound turns high frequencies into razor blades. The high end is exaggerated and unnatural.
I bought the Dayton 652-AIR speakers, they sounded harsh out of the box, I reduced the cap from 6.8uF to a 4uF poly cap and add 0.3mH coil to the woofer, I heard that the Monoprice 65RT is a better speaker, still trebly sounding, a series resistor could take care of and the 2.2uF cap could be upped to 3.3uF
Put them to play instead to be talking...the truth is the sound not what you think about them
No amt drivers Really???