Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Ned and Ashara=Jon | New and Improved Edition
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Plus Catelyn mentions that Jon was already at Winterfell when she first went there with Robb.
The firstborn arrived first.
“You have your fathers look”-anyone who talked to Jon about his looks through the entire series
we didn't even get to cover any of the text references or clues in this video...we found a few annotations in the past few months that had me mapping out routes and distances covered in Robert's Rebellion, and what I found when I ran it all the way through to the end was too good to keep to ourselves
When Beric said in the show that Jon must have taken after his mother because he didn't look like Ned, first I nearly through something at the TV, then I just took it as proof that not only is the show going a different, more crowd pleasing direction, they are making it clear to all book readers that they are doing so as well. Which, honestly, I think is kind of bad ass that book readers will get a very different ending.
Dude for real I was weighing in my skin when Beric said that, but I took it like you did that they were sorta of knifing slash bitch slapping book readers. Ugh
And the order of the green hand, those connections are dead on the time line I believe 💯 fits, I’m on my fourth re read right now doing the audible books this time for the small differences. If you ever want a second option on any of your facts just for assurances feel free to email me at gurt.reynolds23@gmail.com I don’t have nearly the analytical details that you guys have but I love fact checking everyones information putting everything together.
His mother is Ned sister that's why they he has your father's look.
The stark look
Gurt Reynolds if I'm not mistaken the books say Jon and arya look similar and also they say arya looks like lyana so Jon looks like a stark like his father and sister
I see that epic boatsex is a thing that runs in the Stark family...
BoxStudioExecutive you know it
Like father like son ;)
He is his father's son
If this theory is true, I want Lady Stoneheart to find out.
I just hope she stays undead long enough to see Jon crowned King of the North
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Yes 😆
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand That would honestly give me the biggest smirk I've ever had when/if I read that line 😂
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand that would be great!!!!!!
This also will allow Jon to become Sword of the Morning (as he has Dayne mother) which gives him Dawn (which is Lightbringer) I am a believer in this theory. Plus the baby switch is mirrored in Jon's switching babies to protect king's blood, which is another JRRM hallmark.
Joe Mullany does it also not give him Bear Claw for some Arthur Dayne style dual wielding ?
The sad bit for Jon is that he slays his Uncle (I believe The Halfhand is Arthur Dayne) making Jon a Kingslayer. Surely this tragedy is in keeping with what befalls his parents too.
(Rhaegar=Mance/Halfhand=Arthur Dayne etc which puts the BS TOJ story way out, but does account for how Mance is able to unite the Wildling Clans, using his Kingsguard to do it).
This works, big time 👍🏼
@@craigrutt8463 I never thought of the Kinslaying...woah...another layer of sadness = more proof! I just hope GRRM isn't in charge of the level of hell I'm going to.
@@craigrutt8463 there is a problem with that theory because Halfhand is present at harrenhal the guy who inspires a young benjen stark to join the order of the night's watch is said to be qhorin
@@craigrutt8463 Dawn is a Greatsword, Arthur only dual wielded because d&d are stupid.
It makes so much more sense that Jon would be King in the North rather than King of the Seven Kingdoms considering that, in the books, the story doesn't associate Jon with King's Landing and the realm at all. It's always about the North and his link to House Stark.
Everything about Jon is Ned. He doesn’t resemble Rhaegar in any way.
nyphix4321 When they say he looks like Ned, he has “Stark” features. Even though he is Lyannas son, Lyanna and Ned could look alike thus having Jon Snow look like both Lyanna and Ned. Very simple
@@StarBrikEntertainment well, it is said that jon is very similar to Ned in more than one occasion, Tyrion thinks that whoever his mother was "left very little of herself in her son", Cercei recognized that jon was so similar to Ned that she recognized him right away as Ned's bastard, and so on
Lyanna is also a Stark and Jon could take after her Stark traits
@@210SAi - How much do other Targaryen children keep the classic Targaryen features when their father is Targaryen and their mother is something else?
@James Stockdale - Well, I'm not a book reader, at least not yet, but I'm told that Jon doesn't simply look like a Stark; Jon looks like Ned. Jon doesn't only look like Ned when he is in King's Landing, Jon looks like Ned when he is in Winterfell. In a room with all of Ned's kin, with all his children, his uncles, brothers, cousins, etc., Jon is the one who looks just like Ned. If that's the story, then it's a bit of shenanigans to tell us that Jon is not really his son. When you need to hide a Targaryen, it is awfully convenient for him to be the only Targaryen who has no Targaryen features at all.
I think some are missing the point here. GRRM has stated himself that he likes to write about the human heart being in conflict with itself (I believe it was that anyway). The whole premise of ASOIF to me is that everything you believe to be true is an illusion. The emphasis on Ned's "honour" should be ingested with a grain of salt. Jon Snow and everyone around him has always labelled him a bastard,his whole existence is based upon this label. He believes himself to not truly be a stark. Would it not be more fitting for him to not only be a stark (which he yearns for) but to be the one and only true stark? To me that would be more beautiful, it adds a sense of poetic justice and show cases the complexity of human nature.
Fidget Spinner ikr i just dont see the point of r+l other than fan service.
That could be why Ned feels shame and guilt. He had Robb be his heir when Jon was always his heir.
But to be fair. Book Cat would have had Jon poisoned if he was a true threat to Robbs inheritence.
Emperor of Mankind yeah that is more than likely it also if this theory is true than i would have loved for ned to out hoster tully for the fake motherfucker he is he wouldnt marry lysa to tyrion who is practically the heir apparent to casterly rock because he was a dwarf but he would marry her to man a lot older than he is and would likely have problems conceving children
R+L=J mainly revolved around Ned's honor. The problem with that was that, young Ned might not even be as honorable as the old Ned. I mean, just like what green hand mentioned, he's the second child, he can pretty much do whatever the hell he wants. I'm not saying that the young Ned was a rebel type teenager, it's just that he's not bound by any responsibility of being the head of the fam.
Not only does Ned never think about Lyanna and Jon at the same time but when he does think about them the emotions he feels are complete opposites: when Ned thinks about Lyanna he becomes very Sad and Melancholic whereas when he thinks about Jon he becomes very Angry and bitter (which interestingly enough are the same emotions he feels when someone brings up Ashara Dayne...), if Jon really was Lyanna’s son then wouldn’t Ned feel the same emotions when thinking about them?
But to argue it would be so obvious if he thought of lyanna then Jon it wlukd give away his parentage
@@lxfj2128 ok fair enough but that still doesn’t explain why the emotions Ned feels when he does think of them are the complete opposites and on top of that like I said the emotions Ned feels when Jon is brought up are the same emotions he feels when Ashara is brought up, that can not be a coincidence.
Too add to your point about how long it took Ned to get into the war, here's a line from the princess and the queen; "The north was too remote to be of much import in the fight, the council judged; by the time the Starks gathered their banners and marched south, the war might well be over."
I love these theories. Do you know: The Australian Aboriginal meaning of Wylla is: Woman, Wife. Robert Baratheon thinks Jon Snow's mother is Wylla. So, yes, Jon Snow's mother is Ned's wife. 😁
George would have been so careful in establishing the timeline surrounding Jon's conception that these inconsistencies cannot be a mistake. To me, N+A=J is now canon. Thank you for this amazing video!
thats exactly how we feel
The Order of the Green Hand Thank you. I think people are unaware of the fact that this story goes back decades. They have accepted that the conversation GGRM had with D&D is 100% true. The R+L theory is obvious if you only read the first book and don’t dig and read everything. More intrigue is presented In the books which I don’t believe is for nothing.
@@nandalallutchmansingh9675 Another point i think people blatantly ignore is just because D&D guessed Jon's parents accurately doesn't mean they wrote the show the same way. They could've guessed N+A=J and still wrote R÷L=J which was actually an easier plot twist to write for show purposes. Fewer characters to write.
@@williamhermann6635 or they could’ve got it wrong and George only allowed them to make the show BECAUSE they wouldn’t spoil who Jon’s parents are.
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 My thoughts exactly. I mean, it's hilarious, because that honestly makes the most sense.
Still a better love story than Rhaegar and Lyanna
The fact people unashamedly deny this goes to show how naive they are to think the Rhaegar and Lyanna theory is much more plausible. George likes to make twists. Who knows, this Ned and Ashara thing could be what is delaying George so much. I’d be disappointed if he just followed the crowd and called the other theory canon just for the sake of it. A Song of Ice and Fire is really A Song of Ned and Ashara
Let's hope so
I really like this theory. Especially since it would mean that Arthur Dayne would be Jon's uncle...
we really feel like Jon's whole arch has been building towards him being the next Sword of the Morning
@jellylovesfaith Don't you mean Mance Rayder? ; )
Does this mean that Ashara would have, not a hatred, but a ‘grudge’ against Ned since he (sort of) killed Arthur Dayne? And how does she die in the books? Did it ever get mentioned?
@@acrazysheepdog1555 she supposedly flung herself off a tower into the sea
Jon will use Dawn to kill the Night King. Everything is pointing towards it
This makes a lot more sense. Dawn must be lightbringer, and Jon can't get it if he's not a dayne.
that's exactly what we thought since the first time we read the books...a glowing white sword unlike any other in the story seems like something we should pay attention to...and George continuing to give us little tidbits throughout the story that all point to Ned and Ashara "dating" prior to the Rebellion seems like it has to be there for a reason
So weird how aemon goes on about how it isnt hot, maybe john needs to make a sacrifice
So, Jon is the rightful heir and true King in the North not only by Robbs decree(SoS), but also by birth? Kewl
From GRRM's blog yesterday "I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner.... I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did." Is this the closest we've gotten to official confirmation from George himself that R+L=J? After that godawful final season and the horrific way Jon's parentage was utilized (merely to drive a wedge between him and Dany and contribute to her downfall) and made completely insignificant in the end, I'd prefer N+A=J all the way.
It could be that they got the answer wrong so George allowed them to make the show knowing they will not reveal the single greatest secret in his story.
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 I've also been thinking of that for a while, and it'd also be a great twist. At least if D&D were going to screw up the show, like they ended up doing, they'd be using the wrong twist. The twist in the show led to F@ck all in the end; his twist will be far more impactful to the story.
They couldve guessed N+A=J and still wrote R+L=J. R+L=J is less complex that requires fewer characters which equals cheaper production costs.
@@williamhermann6635that seems like a thing dumb and dumber would do😂
Firstly, why would R + L = J have made it to the show but not the books? This is why.
[The scene, if you can imagine it, is two people who've never read any of the books but love the show, sitting down one evening watching GoT.]
Person 1: "Hey, we're about to find out who Jon's parents are - I've really been looking forward to this. It's such a mystery"
Person 2: "Oh yes. Shut up here it comes..."
[Scenes shows Brandon Stark watching Ned marrying Ashara Dayne - or they're just shagging somewhere.]
Person 1: "So Jon's parents are Ned and who?"
Person 2: "Someone called Ashara Dayne."
Person 1: "Who the fuck's Ashara Dayne?"
Person 2: "I don't know. I think I've heard someone called Dayne but they've been dead a while I think. They're not a main character."
Person 1: "So she's not a Lannister?"
Person 2: "No."
Person 1: "A Stark?"
Person 2: "No, she's a Dayne."
Person 1: "Are they related to the Baratheons?"
Person 2: "I don't think so."
Person 1: "So she's just a random we hardly know and isn't in any of the main families we've been learning about?"
Person 2: "No."
Person 1: "Well that's shit."
Person 2: "Yeah and I'm depressed now. Shall we both go and commit suicide?"
Person 1: "I'll finish my cup of tea first."
That's why.
have you ever considered the fact that George began working on this in 1991 and might have activated the non-disclosure clauses that his lawyers would have had to have been morons not to have included in his contract that would allow him to forbid the show from revealing his secrets so he can do it himself? like I said to your last comment, he owns every aspect of the story...the copyrights, trademarks, everything...if he wanted to reveal his own secrets now that the show moved past the books, he can...this past season was 100% made up by D&D...they said it, HBO said it, some of the actors said it...what does that tell you? it tells you that George isn't giving them anything anymore...George's help in season 6 appeared to have been Hodor=Hold the Door...I for one know that if you spent 26 years creating a story that took the world by storm, you wouldn't let two mediocre Hollywood writers get all the glory of revealing your biggest secrets...no one would...why the entire world is under the impression that George doesn't care to tell HIS STORY himself is beyond my ability to reason out
While I really want to root for your theories, you make it super hard to like you given all your pettiness regarding any feedback! Why do you put your brilliant ideas out there in the community if you can’t hear out any dissenters (or anyone who doesn’t agree with you a 100% for that matter)?
Violator your comment does a pretty great job of explaining why they chose to go with R+L=J for the TV show audience, they never set up Ashara in the show and it would've been a disappointment to most viewers who only watch the show. I also agree with OotGH that George wouldn't have allowed them to reveal the true parentage of Jon from the books unless he had already revealed it outright, and that there is no doubt something in his contract with HBO that restricts the TV show from spoiling upcoming events in the novels.
We are few, but proud in our resistance of the r+l=j theorem
r/pureasoiaf will crucify you if you even try to debate it
Im not so convinced N+A= J will be a thing in the books. But i hope because it just seems more compelling and inline with the notion of grey characters.
@@therecalcitrantseditionist3613 There are merits to both theories and issues with both theories. You can poke holes in N+A=J same as you can R+L=J and I’m not a huge fan of trying to use a definite timeline to try and prove or disprove either of them. I just feel that there are to many discrepancies in the timeline and the history behind the story has grown so expansive that George has a hard time keeping the timeline straight.
Plz tell me then why doesn't ned tell anyone about Jon's mother?
Explaining this to book fans be like telling Tyrion to quit drinking.
can't wait for the books confirmation of this, the reactions of the R + L = J supporters will be worth the wait
neither can we
Unfortunately, D&D have 100% confirmed R + L = J came straight from George as a part of the books last month on Kimmel. Most likely straight out confirmed it because everyone wanted to nitpick their words previously confirming it. They didn't confirm the marriage, love, or Aegon being his name, but the parentage is officially confirmed as R + L = J
@@iloveyourunclebob nooooooo
@@iloveyourunclebob Could've lied? I mean if they did George would be powerless to dispute it or say anything because that would either confirm or deny it. Also wouldn't it be fucked if they gave away something like that as it would or will be highly important in the books? You are probably right in your claim but I like this theory better so I would like to stick with it any way I can. With Jon being Ashara and Neds son it would make everyone happy y'know as appose to fuck everything up. "If you think this is going to have a happy ending then you haven't been listening." isn't in the book btw so still a possible mostly happy ending. This is rather than fucking everything up.
@@aidanastokes I hate to sound as though i'm making an advertisement for someone's channel but check out "TheDragonDemands" if you'd like to see how trustworthy D&D are as a source for future book information.
His videos are movie long and tends to repeat information quite alot, but can you really trust an adapter who defends poorly written changes as "were trying to separate ourselves from the books" prior to running out of published material, but once they do their defense for further poorly executed plot-lines becomes "well it happens in the future books"?
I'm not discounting R+L=J might happen, but personally i'll need a stronger source than "well D&D says it does" to believe it will; let alone the way it was presented.
God how I would love for you to be right on this. Not only would the story be enhanced but it would smack the faces of all the so called fandom gatekeepers on Tumblr in the face. I love to the commitment you guys have had to other ideas since video 1.
I don't understand why the show was so set on R+L=J... Jon being Ned's only legitimate child is a much better plot twist in my opinion.
think about how shocked the whole world will be when the book comes out ...the shock alone will sell him another 10 million copies
Much easier to write and cheaper to produce. Less characters/actors to pay and write for. R+L=J was a way of streamlining the story to fit for the tv screen.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand yes how beautiful it will be when everyone realises he is the only trueborn stark and catelyns children are bastards. Bt jon would legitimise them and thus it would be a bitter sweet ending 😌
It fits the bastard prince trope and makes Ned some sort of martyr to go with RLJ. The books didn't give much evidence for RLJ, RL yes, but not RLJ. Aegon or Dany are much better fits for RL's child. Also, Jon being legitimate could be the only way out of the Winterfell inheritance mess coming our way. Bran, Rickon, Sansa; all have a claim of some sort. The North needs a competent leader who is aware of what's happening. No one else fits this. The arc about fixing what's wrong with the weirwoods is not Jon's arc, it's Bran's. Jon is, until the Others come, done with the Wall. He's put stuff in place for feeding/manning, and even Thorne can't just stop it, or the Watch will die. There are too many Wildlings south of the Wall now.
The real questions are: is he really dead, and if so how will he come back. Yes, Mel can give him the kiss, but it's heavily implied that Shireen will burn for some reason. Only death can pay for life, and perhaps Shireen's sacrifice is what makes Jon a real boy again. (as opposed to Beric's situation)
That is the most detailed timeline asoiaf video I've ever seen
So now I get it why GRRM writes so slow
he has to carefully tweak the timeline
It was also possible for Ned to write to Benjen from White Harbor and have him call the banners, with the Stark seal. Great video. More perfect points. I love you guys lol
I wish I thought to say that
Kay Lew I believe Ned had Benjen call the banners since he would be acting Lord. Same with how Robb called them when Ned was imprisoned.
Kay Lew Soo true! He didn't have to leave White Harbor!
Franjo Krajinović The only thing is the Stark seal from a Winterfell maester, to legitimise the order of the leig lord. I think that is just a formality, along with reavens sent from Ned in White harbor. There are in fact certain waxes and colors and all that they use from different castles so maesters know the authenticity of letters
The Order of the Green Hand That's understandable...you two were busy with everything else and all the work that you put into these videos. After all, Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell at that time. There has to be more to his story
Great video guys.
I also wanna believe Jon might see his mother before the series are over.
thats where him looking exactly like Ned comes into the equation...when Ashara comes north with Aegon, she'll know its him the second she sees him
The Order of the Green Hand That'd be so cool. And he can put all those feelings about being a bastard and his mom to rest.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand even after 3 yrs do u still believe it?? Plz reply I wanna know. Everything everywhere supports r+l=j . Though i would like ashara to be Jon's mother I'm disheartened. The vison dany has in the house of the undying of a blue winter rose on a wall which implies lyanna and jon. How would u explain it? .
I always hated the r+l=j theory. After watching the show and reading all of the books it just reeked (lol) of being a shitty cliche. I mean, seemingly normal main character is a kings son AND the chosen one? Get real. George is the ultimate killer of cliches. There’s no way he’d go this route.
Ah so instead he's the only legitimate stark and the sword of the morning and the chosen one
That whole thing you did in calculating how many days passed into the war I think was brilliant. Actually tells you they don’t have a fast travel system like they do in the recent seasons.
Well consider me a believer - N+A=J. Mathematically it makes sense. Amazing reconstruction of events, and the fact that Ashara’s name is mentioned in the chapter no one would even suspect it was the truth believing it to be the red herring of the series. Talk about a real subversion of expectations on GRMM’s part. Amazing video guys! 👍
Thank you
Their theory about aegon being rhaegar and lyanna's child is also fascinating and godly made but my favourite remains this one.
Yeah I definitely prefer N+A=J over R+L=J (despite the fact that I do like that one), this just seems far more bittersweet
I can't believe I'm now on the N+A=J train but I agree. After how completely empty the show has left me feeling, I'm starved for this much more intriguing version of the story. Plus, the idea of Jon reuniting with his mother is simply heartwarming.
Krissy Says agreed, Jon deserves atleast one happy moment in his life (ESPECIALLY in the books) and what could be better then him finally meeting his mother?
I too am on the N+A=J boat. Targarians are overrated imo.
@@noxflo897. But, but, but de dragoon is kool
@@Anten-Isy Dawn is Cooler, I mean cmon it’s a proper Magic Sword!
Do you know what is really a mystery about the Starks? Ned's mother. I find it curious that GRRM hasn't given us any information about her. Let's say she was so irrelevant that he didn't think it was important to give her any attention. She married Rickard Stark. She had to be from a very important family, propably from the North but there is no mention of relatives to Eddard from his mother's side. What the hell is happening here? George gives us the names of every irrelevant lord in his books but he simply ignores the mother of one of his main characters from his first book? Why do I get the feeling that knowing who she was whould give away something important? It reminds me of how the World of Ice and Fire has nothing of Qarth, even though the city is deffnitely important in the grand scheme of things. A lot of information on lands that GRRM had to basically make from scratch simpy because in the second book there was a map with Qarth in the middle, so he had to fill all this empty space ij the East with Yi Ti and Leng etc. Meanwhile we get so little on Asshai and nothing on Qarth. Looks like Gerorge's strategy is to overload and distract the reader with too much unimportant information on his world while hiding the important parts until it is time to properly reveal them.
Her name was Lyarra Stark - awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyarra_Stark
If I remember correctly Ned's grandmother was a Flint. In the family tree I checked in his mother's name it said uknown.
Lyanna?
Oh, sorry, I reasd Lyanna.
Vanessa Amesty I don’t have the exact answer on Doran Martell, but Oberyn did mention his mother by name saying she was ruling Dorne at the time he visited Casterly Rock with Elia and they saw baby Tyrion
Yeah... Ashara having been raised on the Island of Starfall... and her time on the island of Dragonstone... it is quite possible that her Dad did do some fishing... and quite possible she was very comfortable on a boat (fisherman's daughter?).
Although where would Ashara find a plain dress and how would she hide her soft hands that never knew manual labor? Her face must have been too delicate for a fisherman's daughter too. Ashara might have travelled by boat a lot for a lady, but not nearly enough to get tanned and dry skin.
I still say this theory is much more likely. Just because something happens on the show doesn't mean it will happen the same way in the books.
The only reason that happened on the show is because everyone in the world wants R+L=J. The same reason that the show writers made Arya a goddamn ninja superhero out of nowhere.
Just like everyone wanting Littlefinger to die, so the writers killed him even when there was no logical reason for him to die.
StarWarFan well except that he deserved also the fact that baelish did'nt say what proof do you have.
Can you explain it to me then because I am completely lost...
1. If the Jon Snow we know about, the one on the wall, is Ned's son then does that mean Lyanna never had a child at the Tower of Joy? And if she didn't have a child then what did she make Ned promise her? If she did have a child then what happened to the child? Is the child Aegon?
2. Where was Jon Snow when Ned went to the Tower of Joy? Did he have him with him? If not then where was he at? I'm just confused on who is Aegon in the books.. Is that Ned's son or is that someone else? Who is Jon Snow in the books? Did Ned like swap babies or something, or is Aegon in the books Ned's child and the character we know as Jon Snow in the books is someone else's child?
help... lol
@@thepiperreport8198 watch the playlist of this channel of his videos in order....theres a video called "who was born in the tower of joy" on this channel ....looks it up and your questions will be answered...
This version would be way cooler than a mini Ned riding on a dragon fighting the Others
Get ready to for the hate mail
they can hate all they want...that annotation we found flat out disproves R+L=J and can't be argued with
Hi Order of the Green Hand, hope you're well. I'm not saying you're wrong, I think this mystery is the key one in asoiaf. But with all due respect it can be argued. Ned went searching for Lyanna immediately after the sack of KL and found his sister. Whether it be 30 days, 60 days or 90 days that could still be considered 'around the time or shortly after the sack of KL'. George is super careful not to give definitive answers to key questions and he certainly wouldn't give out info that rules out an option he has set up as mysterious. Likewise, I don't see Paris blurting out such delicate info to some random fan, I actually think she's more likely to deflect such a question so as not to give away such important details. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong but RLJ uses more textual evidence and symbolism than your idea. You have a lot of speculation in your theory and I don't think it's as strong as RLJ. To conclude, I don't care as much as the RLJ stalwarts, just think it's a stronger argument, kudos to you if you are right, I'll be the first to congratulate you on some awesome asoiaf sleuthing.
as to paris' comment, i found this:
"(7) TREBLA COMMENT OF R&L THEORY TO PARRIS: Trebla proceeded to talk about the R&L theory and how he believes it, hoping for a tidbit.
HER REPLY (paraphrasing): Do you really think George would do something so basic as Jon being the son of R&L? *Trebla's jaw dropping open*"
Wizz-The- Smith have you seen their other videos on the subject? The go into much more detail. This is an update video. They have been defending this on all fronts and take a lot of hate for it from the old school crowd. This video answers one of the big arguments against the theory. The addition of a scale for the map of Westeros is HUGE!! Given to us just like GRRM likes to give us important info, hidden in a obscure reference on the iTunes version of the books. If they are right then the whole story of the events surrounding Roberts Rebellion and immediately following are different than what you have been lead to believe. Love these Books!!!! Love this channel!! Going to become a Patreon this weekend, this video pushed me over the line to True Believer.
Wizz-The-Smith....Jon would have to be born within a few weeks of of the Sack of KL because Dany is 8-9 months younger than Jon...she would have to have been conceived prior to the sack of King's Landing in order for that to be true, and in order for her to be that much younger than Jon, he would have to be born less than a month after she was conceived, therefore it is literally impossible for R+L to =J because the Tower of Joy was 1500 miles (Ned went to Storm's End first to lift the siege before going there) and as we just explained in this video, traveling such a distance would take a long time, especially the first part to Storm's End where he would have brought an army that included foot soldiers with him...that would already be out of the window where Jon could have been born before Ned could even get to Storm's End, let alone ride the 950-1000 miles from there to the ToJ after he went to Storm's End...and Paris did that in 2002, when it wasn't nearly as big a deal for her to do that...and there is no way R+L=J has more text evidence...have you ever seen our original series on this topic? it took us like 2 full hours of video to lay out all the evidence for N+A=J...the average R+L=J video is 5 minutes and two of them are fluff
This was the video that originally got me to subscribe. I'm glad you redid this, great job. I'm a firm N+A=J believer, and just want to echo the Sword of the Morning angle. This is not just a sword issue (Dawn), it is a prophecy issue. Who knows if any of the prophecies matter, but if they do, then this makes Jon a contender for Prince that was Promised (or Azor Ahai or whichever). For my money, I like Jon as Sword of the Morning, Bringer of the Dawn, wilder of the sword Dawn, destroyer of the night king.
"the seed is strong". does jon look like rhaegar? does jon look like ned? there you go.
it was Robert's seed Jon Arryn was talking about, not Ned's. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon don't look like Ned either so the seed is not as strong for him, maybe.
Word. Ned's seed is clearly not "strong" as evidenced by his kids vs all of roberts bastards. The boy has the look of his mother, deal with it guys. He also has Rhaegar's slender build. Robb is more burly than Jon.
Ned's his uncle, it's not inconceivable he looks like him. We know that Jon looks like Lyanna because we know he looks like Arya who looks like Lyanna. As for not looking like Rhaegar, we know he has a slender build, which is a Targaryn build.
@@conkerthesquirrel8980 show and books most likely are different.......even george called the show a fanfiction...fyi i dont really care which theory is true or not but im just not gonnna take everything the show say as facts!
Didn’t ashara have black hair aswell
The greatest argument for N+A=J for me is the actions of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. If their vow was to protect Lyanna and her child from harm, it would have been incredibly foolish and irresponsible for them to throw their lives away by fighting Eddard unless they felt like their backs were to the wall. If R+L=J, why would there have been a conflict at the Tower? What reason would the Kingsguard have for not wanting to entrust the baby in Eddard's care?
Well, let's assume that Lyanna gave birth before Eddard's arrival and the Kingsguard got a look at the baby. If the baby was indeed Jon and showed Stark features, surely the Kingsguard could have concluded that the safest place for the baby would be with Ned at Winterfell. Rhaegar's heir is kept safe from Robert, Eddard gets to raise and protect his nephew, and everyone gets what they want.
But if Lyanna's child had Targaryen features, suddenly the situation gets tense, and everyone has different ideas on what would be best for the baby. There's no way Eddard could have kept the child at Winterfell and kept its heritage a secret from Robert. The child would have had to be taken into exile while Eddard stayed behind, hence his anguish at the memory of Lyanna's request.
well said sir
All of this is mainly speculation because there simply isn't enaugh information yet in the books. Yes, your theory could be true, but so can be said about other theories as well. Maybe Rhaeghar, being so obssesed with the prophecy of TPTWP wanted to burn down the tower to hatch a dragon and Lyanna and the baby were supposed to be the sacrifice. The kingsguard were there to ensure this would happen and Ned wanted to save his sister, hence the conflict between them. I am not saying this is my theory, but it might as well be true because there aren't sufficient evidence against it.
Yes. Is there any proof that there was fighting at Tower of Joy? We know: Ned would have died if not for H Reed, and that his companions are now dead.
Ok so I think I actually have a strong argument against this how people look like in the story so...
We know for a fact that a few families have special traits like the Targaryens have silver hair and purple eyes, the Lannisters have golden hair and green eyes, the Baratheons have black dark hair and darker eyes, etc
And here comes my idea that some traits are stronger than others - we see this with Joffrey and his siblings
The whole point is they dont look like their ,,father" Robert but in history whenever a Baratheon married a Lannister the children looked much more Baratheon like
Now comes another idea that I think this might be also a reason along with others that why the Targaryens practice marriage between themselves so they can keep their weak genetics and not loose it to another family and so they can still look special. I think this is what happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar... the strong Stark genetics ,,won" over the Targaryen ones and this is why Jon looks so much like a Stark. Also a lot of people in the books compare Arya to Lyanna in their looks and personalities. And they also compare Jon and Arya to each other and to Ned so... (but not to the other Stark children in looks which says to me the Tully genetics are even stronger - Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all have Tully like hair red-/-brown and of the 5 children Ned and Catelyn had only 1 looks much like a Stark - Arya)
Arya->Lyanna
Arya->Jon
->Jon - Lyanna
These features are longer faces, darker hair, etc
We see an example of Targaryen traits kinda lost at when Aegon V marries a Blackwood and their kids are more dark haired than they should be, some having grey hair and they could only bring back their looks by again marrying 2 siblings
I think the ,,power of genetics" is something like this;
Baratheon>Lannister
Stark>Targaryen
Baratheon>Targaryen (despite of Rhaella the Baratheons still kept their looks)
Tully>Stark ?
Etc
(And also just look at my profile picture and my name ... lol)
(And something fun the end I heard this from someone which seems a scratch even for me but he said this;
The song of Ice and Fire as Lyanna and Starks ice and Rhaegar and Targaryens as fire meaning Jon - main character - but NOT Azor Ahai because that would be the long dead and hated Rhaegar, and Jon is the prince and not king who was promised another person than Azor Ahai and not a sword but somewhat is. People are referred as swords multiple times and as light.
Also the Son(g) of ice and fire having the blood of the ancient First Men and Old Valyria aswell)
Oh thats simple.
Two reasons.
First, Robert. Placing Jon on Neds hands would increase the risk of Robert finding out and killing the child.
Second, they werent in a situation to act on their own. They were protecting the baby on Rhaegars orders, and the order probably went somewhere along the lines of ''kill anyone who forcibly tries to enter the tower''. The kingsguard are for the most part legendary for the undying loyalty, and at the tower of joy, we had 3 prime examples of that loyalty, its no stretch to say that all of them would have carried out orders to the death, even after the one who they swore they loyalty had long since died.
Furthermore, none of them personally knew Ned, so why would they trust him over their dead princes orders?
Also, its implied that Jon was born after or during the fight with the kingsguard.
Great video. I had always thought that r+l= j was true, but considering all of these facts it seems completely implausible.
N+A=J FOREVER!!!!!!
Son Of Vergil no chance Jon is real Aegon Tagarean as before dying, Lynaa told Ned that "His" name is Aegon..here she clearly said "His name" it means baby is male not girl so no chance of Dany.
That sass in the beginning 😂
Yes. 👏 I 👏 am 👏here 👏for 👏 it. 😂
You two get very little love. Your channel is top tier and your videos are so thought-provoking and intriguing. I anxiously await each and every installment.
I just realized that Littlefinger replied to Eddard’s question on the number of bastards Robert had with “more than you.” Even Littlefinger knew wow haha
And Littlefinger would be right! 16 is more then 5 wow haha
One of the things that solidifies this theory for me is this, the major moment for Ned when he figures out or realizes that Roberts children aren’t actually his children is the lack of the Baratheon black hair, the fact that his kids are golden maned lions and don’t feature the classic Baratheon look. Yet we take a character who has none of the iconic Targaryen features and attribute him as a Targaryen.
The "Black of Hair" thing is a simplification of IRL genetics, in that dark features are dominant over light features in most cases. As such, Lyanna's dark features would dominate Rheagars light features with regards to Jon.
I believe Jon is a Stark, because of the title A Song of ICE and fire. Dany is fire so he must be ice, if he lives, that is.
Another theory is Jon is both Stark and Targaryen, R+L= He is both Ice and Fire. His purpose is to push back the threat of Ice (The Others), and the threat of Fire (Dany/Dragons).
The ice and fire is in reference to a Robert Frost poem about the world ending in ice or fire - both are bad, just two opposing extremes. Jon is Azor Ahai, meant to prevent either extreme from sweeping over the world - he must prevent the cold, borg-like Others from assimilating the world, and he must prevent the chaotic fire of the Dragons burning the world down. He is the balance, thus his is the song of ice and fire.
I tend to lean towards this theory. The fact that GRRM approved D&D to adapt his books is because they answered his question- Who are Jon’s parents? They gave this answer: R+L=J.
@@cruddddddddddddddd But the Dayne's are represented by fire also :)
Have to admit that it is really cool that the books and the show have different, but plausible stories for Jon's birth.
It would be cool (maybe).... If that was the case...
If this is the course that the books head, does that mean that Jon can also be the Sword of The Morning?
ecobuddha Only if Dawn accepts him.
Yeah it sword does not pass to head of house. It best fighter.
I've been trying to logically work it out in my head, why GRRM is so far ahead of anyone else in terms of his literary genius, but I can't do it. I've started listening to another popular Dark Fantasy series, the Witcher books, since I love playing the third game so much. It's a great series, but it doesn't come close to the way GRRM describes his world. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that George tells each chapter from the perspective of a specific character. He points out in this the fact that humans are fallible by nature, as two characters can approach the same scene with different mindsets, perspectives and form very clear but distinct memories of that encounter. It makes for an exceptionally complex story and I can't think of one writer that has the same effect on me. The only one worth mentioning is maybe Thomas Harris, who wrote the Hannibal series, but even that fantastic story doesn't come close to ASOIAF. The fact that this channel and these theories exist is further proof of his genius and it's scary to me that most of the "mainstream" readers are not aware of many of the things you've pointed out to me, while I have come to accept them as fact. Great work guys, keep it up, love your channel.
thank you...it's very much appreciated
When books reveal true paternt of jon it wil be an atom bomb for the show. That is why they hurry the show.
kedar52 or why GRRM is delaying the release of WoW
GRRM is not delaying . we are too unpatient. All good things need time :). And i quite sure that Davos is the who will reveal the truth.
I think hbo is forcing the delay of ww because their million dollar show will be revealed as shit
Sh0t ah if it happen I will admit I was mistaken. Will see In due time
@kedar52 he's a perfectionist slow writer, o, yeah, you're right. it was just a twist on your comment =]
If Ned and Ashara were madly in love as in the video (which I'm starting to believe)
Can you imagine how heartbreaking it was for the both of them when Ned was forced to marry Catelyn instead? I couldn't imagine.
It is probably why Ashara committed suicided. First learning that the man she loved had to kill her brother, then learning that he was forced into a political marriage
How do you think the northern lords would react if they found that Jon was Ned and Ashara's trueborn son and the rightful heir to Winterfell this entire time?
@@jasonvazquez8652 I'm more interested to learn what they really think about Cat. Cat's mistakes got an awful lot of people killed.
@@jacobenke7936 We already know what Barbrey Dustin thinks of her, and I can only imagine what Rickard Karstark thinks of her as well.
There are 3 universal truths:
Young Ned is hot af
Victarion Greyjoy=master race
N+A=J
Finn - And Ashara Dayne is the most beautiful woman to have ever lived.
@@DarthBigBen some say it is lyanna stark
This is officially my favorite CZcams video ever. It was A+N=J that first brought me to your channel and I've been hooked ever since. You're point of view is so refreshing.
Thank you
Missing a bunch of information from reading through the books? That's why I follow this channel. Duh..thanks for existing!
I subscribed to this theory when I saw your first video and no one has ever been able to convince me otherwise. No one analyzes the text quite like you. Thanks for all the hard work and dedication, I can't imagine how long it takes to put all of this together on a weekly basis. Your fans appreciate it
You two just got me through one of the roughest work weeks in my life! I can always count on y'all to bring you A game! Masterful as always
This is the first video that I’ve seen from your channel and it did not disappoint. You had evidence and really clarified it for us. I like both adaptations. I love the episodes and I love the books. :) Thanks for giving me a channel to subscribe to.
Thank you so much
False spring gets left out of this wayyy too much. We don't know how bad the winter was after the tourney. If everyone was stuck in place for a couple months before lyanna went off with rhaeg.... plenty of time for Ned and asharra to fall in love.
You guys are the best. I was just mad because my city was out of power for many hours and I saw your act. I started watching yesterday, but my internet went down so as soon as it came back up i sat to watch your video. You guys took all my hate away with this, I loved it so much! I have to admit that I used to suscribe to the theory of L+R=J, but after I read the books for the second time I changed my mind and this is how ended up in this channel. I first found Preston's theory of baby switching for it being Danny and I didn't buy it, so I ended up in the Ashara boat and that is what brought me to you guys who have come up with way more stuff than what I had going for it in the beggining.
I have to say, not only I am very impress but I think you guys are 100% right.
Oh, I loved your sarcasm about the "great" show aswell.
This was perfect. Thanks for it!
This is what bought me here in the first place! I'm so happy you made a new one.
I want this to be true simply because I wanna see Jon as Sword of the Morning now
Question then, the theory is pretty interesting indeed.
However, if Ashara Dayne is Jon's true mother then what reason would Eddard have to keep this a secret? What harm would come from telling Catelyn that he was with Ashara before she wed Cat and Jon is the result of that union? What more could Cat do to trouble Jon than she's already doing? I also never recall Eddard thinking of Ashara very often if all. Most of what we know about Ashara comes from other POVs.
Ned might be dissociating memories about her as they're too painful. As for Catelyn - you propose to tell her that Jon was conceived not from a lowborn wench out of wedlock, but from a highborn lady after an official marriage? Basically to tell Catelyn she is a mother of five bastards?
Thank you both for all of your hard work on your videos. Yours is my favorite ASOIF channel.
GoT Viewer's Spin on this "Theory": I haven't read one sentence from ASOIAF, but here's my prediction for S8: Aegon Targaryen (R+I=A) will arrive to Westeros with the Golden Company and his foster-mom to sack King's Landing. After the Winter's War, Jon will of course embrace his first cousin Aegon with a big northern hug, immediately after Jon will see purple eyes crying behind his cousin and instantly connect with Ashara. Daenerys will be deeply dismayed but will come to terms with her new Nephew.
Yes! 🙌Perfect way to start the weekend!
I really love how dedicated to this theory you guys are
That was great! I’m reading the books for a second time now without huge gaps between them and what was laid out here seems absolutely right? I’m blown away. Awesome job!
So the show _DID_ get it right!
The child of Rhaegar and Lyanna _is_ called Aegon! Well... fAegon/Young Griff.
It was dumb, why would he name Jon Aegon when he already had a son named Aegon....shit writing thats why.
@@lelouche25 um maybe because aegon is a targ name making it really obvious
@@benmccarthy1799 Wow, do you have noodles in your brain? Yuki Terumi asked why would Rhaegar call Lyanna's child Aegon when he already had a son called Aegon? Have you ever read of any Targaryen parent name two of his children the same name? He already had a son called Aegon. Why would he name another son of his Aegon?
But then again, what would i expect from a D&D troll😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thanks for the new videos on this, have to see those new annotated books. I concur with the notion that N+A +J, the show wouldn't have reveald the truth on that one, they had to change it for reasons of non disclosure I'm sure.
Would also be cool to see a baby (Jon snow) that’s northern and Dornish, something we have yet to see
Loved this updated vid. Makes me want to go back and watch more of your series about Val and the Great Conspiracy. Keep these vids coming!
thanks m'lady
I’ve been coming back into ASOIAF gradually, and this is my favourite theory, I dislike how contentious the whole argument has become (primarily from the R+L=J camp) just because an unfaithful retelling said so, I love all the theories surrounding Jon and his parentage but this one is most true to the theme of GRRM’s stories, it’s tragic and romantic and most true to the flawed characters in this world. Can’t wait to see more of you two when the last books eventually get released. Best of luck.
New information, you say?
**heavy breathing**
RLJ is so lame. The only thing about it that makes sense is the need for secrecy. But that's it. RLJ fans are dogmatic about it, and ignore major flaws. Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years while living at Winterfell and seeing Jon every day, then thinks about him in King's Landing where Robert is planning to have Rhaegar's sister (or daughter) murdered. Ned thinks about all his kids except for Jon when talking to Cersei, and RLJ shills flip about that, completely ignoring the obvious context of Ned trying to put himself in Cat's shoes. Also, the RLJ shills (I'm saying that with love) say Ned had Jon sit in the back of the hall when feasting Robert because he was afraid Robert would somehow recognize that Ned's clone of a bastard was actually the son of a guy he looked and acted nothing like. ??? When the book clearly lays out that Cat wanted the bastard in the back so as not to potentially offend the king, 'cos in PJ's words, she was worried about the direwolf choking on a stag.
shills! love it!
Exceptionally awesome and informative content. Love what you two glean from cleaving all the available information out here. Massive fan! Moar, pls!
this makes the most sense by far. you guys really did your homework
John actually being Ned's son, like it was claimed for years? Subverting expectations indeed!
Young Griff most notably hides his hair by dyeing it. With Baratheon dark hair seems to override other hair colors (the seed is strong and such) which seems to be pretty much be the case with any dark hair.
If Young Griff is a mix of Lyanna and Rhaegar he would have a mix of Brown (Lyanna) and Targ Silver hair (Rhaegar). I'm not sure if we have this mix anywhere in the books? I suppose the Targ seed is pretty strong too.
This would also explain Jon Snow being dark haired which he could inherit from Ashara Dayne if he is Ned + Ashara.
The Targaryen seed is weak almost 8/10 times they married out of the family, the children took after their non Targaryen parent.
One of the first red flags against the Rhaegar rape theory in AGoT is Ned never thinking poorly of Rhaegar, while Robert is still pissed off twenty years later, despite Leanna being *Ned's* sister...stuff like that happens a lot up until he's beheaded.
Such an eye-opener, thank you for this fresh and amazing theory! Keep up the fantastic work!
The more time passes, the more I pray to learn that you are right. The story is incredibly tragic, and therefore far too realistic I think. N + A = J is clearly much better than "Jon is a Targaryen, shut up".
Thank you for uploading this I've been wanting to say this for a while. Ahsara is considered Ned's lost Lenore(a dead love interest) while some(Like you) believe she is Lemore. That is literally as close as possible as you can get. If she isn't Lemore I will cry.
us too! i love the lenore connection. in what language does it mean a dead love interest??? ill include it in a future video! :D
The lost Lenore is from Edgar Allen Poe's "The Raven". I got it from going through ASOIAF character trope from tv tropes(It does more than just tv). When I was reading Ashara's it said that she was a lost Lenore figure and it clicked in my head that Lemore and Lenore is incredibly close.
Here is The Lost Lenore:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLostLenore
Here is Ashara Dayne:
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/ASongOfIceAndFireHouseDayne
I see some people are arguing that the story about Martin and D&D meeting is proving your theory wrong. But I think that George heard their ideas and thought "Great! Those two will not spoil my books" and let them carry on with whatever they come up with, while he's writing a completely different ending. Only outcome of that meeting was that Martin agreed to make GoT, he didn't say D&D were right in their assumptions.
New episode! So stoked! Started watching a little after an episode or so ago and watched everything on your channel. (Very addictive!). Thanks for all your hard work.
Thanks Howard
Im not even passed the commercial, and i still give you guys a like.
A question about the Daynes; do you guys think that the Oakheart house has any role as an ancient enemy of the Dayne house/that the Oakhearts obstruct the office of the Sword of the Morning?
I ask this because Darkstar tells Arianne that Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for thousands of years. It stuck out in the context of the sentence and seemed weird me.
Also, Oakheart reminds me of Heart of an Oak, which reminds me of heart trees and weirwoods.
it would make sense for the daynes and anything connected to the weirwoods to be in war
New video from The Order...a gift from the Old Gods? Love the videos, keep up the awesome job!
House Dayne is my favourite house in this series simply because of all the mystery surrounding them. It would be so epic if this theory is true.
Whoa you guys! This was like inviting an old friend you haven't seen in ages over for tea and having such a great time that you remember why you were tight in the first place! Such fun. Do you guys think GRRM has some insane master timeline with like every day plotted out? I can't think of how else everything could line up so well with so many moving pieces. How massive must that timeline be...
he said he was building one, and he seems to have given us the info he's using to build it (distances and travel times)
I love these videos!! Well done!!
Thank you
Good stuff indeed, and both the argumentation/presentation and the video style has clearly improved. Congrats!
I love your videos! Can't wait for the next one in this series!
Now see? I loved your videos SO MUCH, I decided to come back and listen to them again. I'm STILL clinging to this theory of yours... but had just about lost faith... until I heard about what George's wife said. "that would be much too simple for George"... or something like that. Your theories are so well thought out... so well supported by other factors in the texts... and just plain reason. I didn't remember this little tidbit... but it's enough for me to remain open in the hope that you two will be proven right. I'm going to continue to re-listen to all your uploads and remain (at least in my head) a member of the Order of the Green Hand... lol. Hope you don't mind comments from those late to this party. I gotta say, tho, that I REALLY miss your uploads. I'm not much on the live stuff... but I was really enjoying your Re-Readis episodes and wish you had continued them. Hope you both are well.
I fucking hope you're right about this. And I believe.
I hope so too. After everyone expecting R+L=J, something like N+A=J, R+L=D (Preston Jacobs' theory) and fAegon Blackfyre would be the best twist.
While I am unabashedly an R+L=J fanboy, I have to admit that these videos are incredible. I think neither theory is concrete but this is incredible thesis on the alternative theory. You guys should do an alternative video on how R + L = J so we could compare and contrast the evidence with each other.
The main problem I have with this theory is how much of a dick it makes Ned out to be. Not only is Ashara effectively dishonored but Jon is denied his birth right and has to suffer Catelyn for 14 yrs. Imagine Jonny boy in Dorne. He could have impregnated all of the Sand Snakes AND Arianne Martell. He could have trained with Ser Daemon Sand and Oberyn Martell. He could have been brothers with Edric Dayne. Hell he could have gone to Meeren with Quentyn Martell and met Daenerys.
Instead he's sent to the wall. Damn. I know for the purpose of the plot we need a Wall POV that is tied to the Starks but shit Ned is a shit father if N+A = J is true.
Also we could of had a compelling Dorne Storyline years earlier.
Justin Reid sending Hinto wall doesn't mean he can't inherit Winterfell, Jaime is part of the KG and still the heir of Tywin Lannister
allyria stark Sending Jon to the wall precisely means Jon can't inherit anything. Not holding any titles or fathering any children is in the Night's Watch's vows.
Justin Reid it wasn't Ned who wanted Jon to go to Wall and both Ned and Robert said after Tywin - Jaime will be the Lord of the Westerlands so if being part of KG isn't holding you back from inheriting lands and marrying then Jon also can do the same since KG oaths are based on the Night's Watch. And Stannis already said Jon could be legitimize, become the Lord of WF and marry if he wanted. He was going to accept but Ghost returned and he rejected.
The only reason I am 99% sure the show went the same way the books will go is because the one thing George asked D&D before agreeing that they could make the show is who Jon's parents are. It is a big big part of the story, and while the books and show diverged, the show still hit the same points that the books will.
R+L=J is a great plot twist. You (ok, we)'re just so obsessed with the series and its lore, it doesn't surprise you anymore.
Did Ned like blue roses? Did Ashara?
The timeline you two researched and created for this theory remains the most detailed and convincing theory I have ever seen on this topic. Every once in a while something might make me doubt it, but another view reminds me that this is airtight af.
Thanks m’lady
I so love this theory Jon is Ned's true son!
Also you guys are among my favorite youtubers and when I see you guys upload a video I have to watch it asap
Hm, I like the idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love and marrying in secret. Their child didn’t have to be Jon, Lyanna could have had a miscarriage or a premature baby, anything would have been fine. I also like the idea that Ned and Ashara loved each other too.
Ashara: "So let me get this straight. After dragging me along all though your treachorus journey and putting me in constant danger, impregnatiing me, and then abandoning me to go marry someone else, and relagating our son to the status of a bastard. Now you want to take my baby away from me and send me into exile to raise a kid that's not mine"?
Ned: "........".
Like seriously Order of the Green Hand, how did that conversation even go?
I’d imagine it wasn’t overly pleasant