Metal Bikes Can Fail Too!
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 10. 2018
- We get lots of comments where people say they are going to metal bikes because they are scared of carbon failures. Unsurprisingly metal bikes can also have failures and quality issues as shown by recalls.
On this channel we show marketing free, real information about the bikes that you ride.
www.luescherteknik.com.au
www.insidecarbonbikes.com
#insidecarbonbikes - Sport
Bamboo bikes never go well around pandas. ;) Always good to see a new video uploaded here mate. Cheers!
Shane Miller - GPLama
You talking from own experience?
Lol
Thanks Shane, maybe I should do a video on Bamboo bikes, it is a composite material after all!
Bamboo bikes are awesome. I made one. More comfy than Cento 1 or XR4 not that they are uncomfortable!
Pandas just eat shoots and leaves, mate.
Noted. No humour in comments from now on. Got it......
It would be interesting to see a high-end aluminum road frame cut in half. Cannondale CAAD9 (made in USA) vs. CAAD12 (made in China) would be pretty neat!
Max Reichwage
I'm very happy to see your question .
There is a video on CZcams is guy triying to break a CAAD 10 an he smash the frame in a Skip container through the edges and he couldn't break it !! Incredible!!
On my aluminium MTB, a chainstay broke. Not some no-name cheap thing, a Felt 29er. Up until then I was sceptical about carbon because carbon tends to fail catastrophically if it fails, and this incident showed me that there is a flip side. The failure was metal fatigue, meaning that a carbon part would probably not have failed at all. Also, that theory about metal parts failing more gracefully and allowing you to notice before they separate went out of the window too. The chainstay broke right through and was held on by a mere sliver before I could notice anything. I did not fall and could even nurse it home, but this was only because I was pedalling casually on smooth tarmac. I do quick descents over rough ground on that thing, and had the part broken there, it would have separated entirely, bent the rest of the linkage and the wheel as well, and I'd be sent flying. So no, a metal bike is not safer than a carbon bike. It depends on how well built or how overbuilt they are. However, even the best built metal bike will fatigue over time, while carbon won't. Thus, if I had a choice, I'd pick carbon over metal. I have flipped my ideas.
The reason my chainstay broke was that they welded a mounting plate for the brake caliper onto it. The stiff plate, along with the stiff weld, ended abruptly, creating a stress riser there. Plus, the seat stays attached at a point well beyond the axle, creating an upward bending momentum on the chainstay. In fact as I got the bike I went uh-oh as I saw that, but I thought, it'd be ok. Felt surely know what they're doing. Actually, they don't. The engineering standards in the bike industry are terribly low, and the reason the bikes don't break more often than they do is pure luck, and the quality of the materials they're built from. The bikes are not engineered, rather designed to look good. The same goes for carbon bikes, except they are also difficult to manufacture en masse and easier to screw up. So pick your poison. Whether you buy metal or carbon, what you're getting is an overpriced, underengineered, badlly built product. If you buy an expensive brand name, all you have done is paid more, you get no higher quality.
I never heard of a steel frame that failed catastrophically. In fact, I've ridden a steel frame with a crack in it for weeks until the crack grew almost all around the down tube. Then I got rid of it. (Of course, I didn't ride the bike at high speeds, just commuting on a smooth bike path to work where there was no traffic at all)
I managed to destroy the frames of any steel bike I owned though (except those which were stolen or not worth to buy new wheels etc. for), but none failed catastrophically.
But I've seen horrible pictures of aluminium forks which failed without any warning. On amazon, pictures made by the customers and they were still selling this life-threatening crap...
my steel tourer cracked at the chain stay weld after 13 years of use, including several cross continental self supported camping trips and many thousands of miles of use. I was still able to ride it the 70 miles home and the manufacturer gave me a new frame free of charge.
And if you're in a town or city, just find the local muffler shop or something and ask nicely for a couple of new welds. Steel frames don't rely as heavily on heat treatment to stay safe.
I've ridden a steel trekking bike for weels which had a crack in the down tube. The crack grew and grew slowly. I got rid of it when there were only a few milimeters of material left. I'd never do this with aluminium... (Of course, I rode very carefully and only on roads, bike paths, not offroad.)
That's also how my steel frame bike failed. Only my way home was a bit shorter.
Funny thing is that it's the only frame I broke so far and I have to think about that every time someone recommends steel as the most durable and robust frame material ;-)
kevina6587
I have an 69 Bob Jackson and I ride her hard , training , cyclocross, sportives and for the moment is perfect , that is true that I apply DW 40 inside the frame every 5 o 6 months to protect it from rust .
I could listen to this guy all day talk about bike frame materials. He has experience that you cannot get from the classroom.
The EFBe Fatigue Test on Sheldon Brown's website should be standard reading for all cyclists. Google finds it.
Also, whataboutism does not improve your position, so don't anyone go thinking that this video has anything to do with your carbon bike.
This is the sort of issue that would benefit from statistics and analysis (e.g. failure modes). It's hard to come to reliable conclusions on the basis of anecdotal evidence.
I only saw a few broken aluminum bikes,but those failures were fatal,the bike was unsafe to ride vs CF bike is easy to get a crack but very rare to snap or catastrophic fail. I´m talking about trail/enduro/DH bikes,not XC or road one´s.
The drive-side chainstay weld (rear dropout) failed on my 2000 Trek 2300. I think that was a bad era (when manufacturers were pushing the limits with alloy before carbon entered the mainstream). Never got a replacement frame as I was not the original owner. Surprised they never even offered me a discount/voucher. Went with an entry-level specialized tarmac (carbon) and still riding it years later. It feels like it will last for ever (as long as I don't crash it).
I’m actually one of those unlucky guys who has a cracked spectral and basically the wield bead that connects the chain-stay (on the drive side) to another piece that has a suspension pivot point was to small. So what would happen is the bead would crack right down the center. However this only happened to medium sized bikes that where in the first production run, canyon after the first few weeks of the bikes being out redesigned the chain stay twice and if you where to order a spectral today it wouldn’t have any problems. Also they sent me a new chain-stay within 3 days and I got my LBS to install it for me (which canyon paid for). If you want you can contact me and I can send you photos
Thanks for the information. Good work by Canyon to rectify the problem.
If I have to choose in terms of durability between a well made carbon and steel frame
I will choose always steel , no doubt!
In terms of performance.... carbon for sure!
...said every owner of an early Cannondale bike ever...;)
I have a Crack'n'Fail frame in my garage that had been accidentally cold-set to 90mm. I not so accidentally cold set it back to 135 and it didn't catastrophically explode, or even crack. It will however remain in my garage, as the rest of it is very shabby looking.
Also pretty funny that most of the ‘steel is real’ guys are happy to run carbon forks.
It's only the most fracture critical part on the bike.😋
Back in the good old days some people would stuff a broom stick in the steerer tube so if the steel broke...
Love lugged steel frames but the video answers this
Ronngren omg that’s really old school.
I don't run CF forks on my steel bikes (5 of them) and just switched out the CF fork on my recently acquired Merlin Titanium bike with a Titanium fork.
Not me
Great video :) Easy subed ! Cyclist from Romania here.
Had a chain stay snap on me on a MTB when I was using it on the road. Funny how I primarily used it for the road and it failed when I was putting the power down off a corner.
The chainstay on the spectral cracks on the squished part of the tube where it allows the stay between the chainring and 2.6 tyre. They replaced that with ones with weld along the top.... And it still cracks after recall. Constantly. Some people have had 4 stats in 18month...
Yeah, everything takes 5 minutes when your not doing it yourself. :)
Best comment , so true
I owned a Virus 992. It was bonded and screwed at the chainstay/seatstay drop out. The seat stay came apart at the drop out. It was fixed at no charge.
Hi Mate. What is your take on workstand mounting a carbon bike? Is top tube mounting a no go?
He answered that in one of Cycling Maven's videos I believe. He said yeah don't clamp to the top tube, clamp to the seatpost because that way if it breaks it can be easily replaced. The top tube can't. I see a lot of people putting their carbon frames on bike racks by the top tube, but in these cases they are basically just resting them on the clamp and barely clamping it down at all.
running your own business is hard yakka, and I would prefer another video but I understand
at the last shop i worked at i found 2-3 cracked metal frames a month. the running joke was dont let him look at your bike
Regarding welding in aerospace. If I remember correctly the SR71 used titanium welds and the Mig 25 steel welds. Obviously being military aircraft may have allowed for much tighter quality control.
As I recall reading on the S71 they used electron beam welding in a vacuum chamber on the titanium, this technology is most likely beyond the average bicycle factory. ;)
Many light GA airframes are constructed from welded steel tube, just like a lightweight steel bike. In commercial and military aircraft there are often weldments in the non-aluminum structural components.
cheers
1:30 820 units
Hmm... this is so marketing and minimal in damage control. How on earth can we be convinced that only 820 units sold? Even so, how did they be convinced that this only impact certain batch (s)?
Canyon bikes tend to be focused around being lightweight and performance with thin weak tubes. They have lower rider weights than many competitors and they like to innovate with their frame designs but don't actually make frames themselves but have to rely on manufacturer's in the far east. Last time I'd seen that information it was Giant that manufactured their aluminium frames and Quest composites for their carbon frames but with any company basically importing components this could change I'm sure. I think they originally had carbon frames made by Giant but they became too expensive but I could be wrong about that.
My own opinion about aluminium vs carbon is aluminium does occasionally get frame recalls where the frame has been poorly engineered and is just too weak as a design error but this is easily remedied by going for a existing frame design that is well tested and has evolved over the years. Many far east companies have their own frame designs which have been improved over the years with failure information from the importers.
Carbon on the other hand is a manual manufacturing process where an individual may create a poor quality frame but the same identical model frame made elsewhere in the factory is to a much higher quality.
Also for me steel you can feel before total failure, aluminium you can sometimes feel but also visually see approaching with cracks etc but carbon can fail instantly with no obvious clues of that impending failure unless you scan it. That for me is the improved safety of metal frames.
I feel the safety aspect with carbon is it is more of a lottery with regard manufacturing quality because it relies on the skill of the frame builder. These are not high paid jobs they are basic assembly jobs with low pay and conditions in the far east.
However I totally accept the benefits of carbon, the ride quality , the low weight, the efficiency and often quite beautiful bikes but I'm still convinced myself that metal framed bikes make better everyday bikes to be used and abused and carbon is more about competitive cycling and more of weekend ride bike. It's like having a everyday car to get you back and forth to work and a sports car for the weekend. Maybe that opinion will change as carbon matures.
Well explained. I totally agree with what you have said.
My aluminium bike broke last week due too metal fatigue from 3 years of extensively riding it. This problem occurs with all lightweight bikes.
interestingly this problem does not occur with carbon bikes...
@LueScher Teknik what about lugged steel bike like colnago masters?
Bruce Wayne Everything can fail if crashed hard enough. Lugged 1-1/8” downtube bikes have been in production for over 70 years, so the limits of such bikes are well known. Such a bike used for its intended purpose won’t have any problems assuming no corrosion issues and no problems with the brazing of the joints. As far as I have seen in cycling media the Master is built by a very experienced frame builder, so the chances of a bad joint are low. If you’re under 200Lbs the chances of stressing the frame to the point of breakage is very unlikely. Do make sure to keep up with applying corrosion protection to the inside of the frame.
It's still a heat cycle. If done wrong, brazing too will create a weak point.
@@AnttiBrax That is less likely if silver is used rather than brass. But an experienced builder will know how to control the heat so that the join is not compromised.
metal bikes have risks of factory misalignment too
Hmm.
So I guess this means the bike manufacturer i.e. Canyon do not check the welds on all the new frames during production, before shipping them off? Seems a bit concerning.
Has anyone took a metal frame and wrapped it in carbon fiber and would it have any benefits ?
What's the point? If you are after strength then you might as well make a carbon bike the same weight as an all steel bike. As long as you put it together properly it will be so much stronger than steel.
@@MrBJPitt well I did it and I do not own a jig plus to build the carbon bike I dont have experience! Plus I'm limited on money but 8 can get those materials for sure tubes and epoxy two part some carbon dope too ! But , I did just for experiment you can look at it if you want just tell me I'll shoot u the link ! I put a layer between the two materials so it would not have galvanized corrosion!
@@MrBJPitt still light too but I just wanted to experience it but no one really has any feed back but me I dont know if anyone has ever done it
@@chetlangford2144 you are probably the first. Props for making it 👍
@@MrBJPitt shimano does this lamination all the time with there wheels and they are really good at that!
interesting
My unobtianium bike has never failed me.... yet!
I've got a fat tube aluminum KHS turbo frame hanging on my wall that is riddled with half a dozen or more fatigue cracks (all near heat-affected areas from welds). It's a great reality check. Others: Felt, steerer tube recall (aluminum) www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2014/Felt-Bicycles-Recalls-Triathlon-Bicycles or Felt aluminum cross bike frame recall (www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2015/Felt-Bicycles-Recalls-Cyclocross-Bicycles) Or, just watch MTB fail compilations on youtube (czcams.com/video/vu9IN8X0JOU/video.html) and see that most of the bikes failing are metal.
What you say is true , but I can and do chuck my metal bikes in the cargo bin of my bus service and all is well , would not do that with my carbon bike , ever
Yes, but how much does the metal frame weigh compared to the carbon one, a similar weight carbon frame that is made well would be almost indestructible.
@@LuescherTeknik I'm hearing ya , but I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be more suitable for a lot of people to buy a quality steel frame , for example I have three steel frames , 531 , prestige , and Columbus all weighing around the 2kg mark the Columbus at 1900 gm I paid $50 for each of the frames now if I was to marry these up to high end carbon groupsets and wheels even lightweight wheels would not be out of the question considering the frame cost savings, I could have a very light weight and durable bike , I mean you really cannot relax at all around carbon , and coffee shop meets , are anxious affairs ,
A big difference between metal bikes and CF bikes is that the faults like cracks can usually be easily detected before complete failure and normally failure doesn't not result in the rest of the frame collapsing in a heap like CF bikes do. Metals have greater ductility. Also as he has mentioned, the failures occur at the welded joints. You can automate the welding of bicycles (this has been done since the 80s) but you cannot automate the lay up of CF. Once an expert welder has taught/programmed a CNC robot to weld one metal bike, the likelihood of human error is greatly reduced. CF manufacture requires human input and the likelihood of mistakes is far greater than with the welding of metal bikes(if automated).
Triode 12, after viewing a large number of Luescher Teknic videos and participation in the comments forums of said videos, I’ve come across your numerous ludicrous restated comment of “ the frame collapsing in a heap like CF does”. I’ve worked with metals most of my 50yrs work experience. I’ve raced both on and offroad competitively on steel, aluminum, and carbon. Give up your miss information campaign and go away!
@@awesomexistence You should work on your spelling first - what or who is 'miss information?' your daughter?
@@awesomexistence yarchive.net/bike/carbon_forks.html
@@awesomexistence yarchive.net/bike/composite_frames.html
@@awesomexistence www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2015/05/06/jobst-brandt-cyclist-inventor-author-and-industry-gadfly-dies-80#.XaT0kEYzZPZ
too many videos of mtb bike braking in half
steel is real :)
i dont know how to eat dirt, but i sure do love eating booty, amirite?
Meh.
At least on metal bike you can check you're frame,and can be repaired.when it is on carbon frames you need to consult a specialist.
Not always. Welding aluminium, titanium or cromoly steel often requires special equipment and 0.2mm of wallthickness cannot be welded by any hobbyisch guy.
Yes, often metal failures in tubes are easier to spot due to cracks being visible on the surface, however flaws in welds are similarly difficult to find as a void in a carbon frame, hence the extensive use of ultrasound in welded structure testing.
I would also recommend any repairs regardless of the material be done by a specialist.
@@mathieub3953 Yeah, I had to get rid of my Peugeot/Columbus frame because it had a crack due to corrosion. A pity, it was so beautiful. They welded the tubes from the inside, you couldn't see it was welded at all.