On this channel we show marketing free, real information about the bikes that you ride. www.luescherteknik.com.au www.insidecarbonbikes.com #insidecarbonbikes
The whole point of any GCN video, where some particular manufacturer or product is involved, is always advertising. Therefore they have taken a fancy aero carbon bar to show of, the one they hope to sell the most of, because of the bigger earning margin. Actually, advertising is the whole point of the vast majority of youtube videos nowadays. In that perspective, your videos are a rare and striking deviation from the bunch. You give always actual information to the people. I’m very grateful for your cut-up analysis. As far as I know, you’re the only source for such information about the build quality of today’s carbon bike frames and parts. As an automotive engineer, I wouldn’t have thought, what crap the big bike manufacturers would sell for such high prices. They even don’t seem to bother about potential catastrophic failures during the ride. I hope they’ll eventually evolve the manufacturing, because for now, from what I’ve seen on your channel, I am a bit hesitant in buying carbon frames.
Well done, thoroughly explained, looking objectively at both sides and pros/cons of the two materials, without any marketing nor sponsorship bias pressures. Thank you
So glad you've done this. Find it incredibly frustrating whenever GCN touch science. I know it's meant to be entertaining and have mass appeal but sometimes they seem to actively take steps to avoid being able to make valid comparisons - not using same shape bars in this instance, not doing crossovers in time-trial tests etc. If they could take what you've said on board and do a more indepth video (giving appropriate credit of course) for those who're interested that'd be amazing. I'm sure there's the market for it.
The problem with a channel like GCN is they have to be diplomatic and make sure to offend no one. They don't want to take a hard stance on some products or brands because they'd become an enemy to a lot of people or even be discredited for saying something honest, yet somehow controversial. The few people they will likely offend are engineers, bike mechanics, and other people who already know it's nonsense anyway. I loved some of GCN's other videos, presenter challenges etc for their entertainment value, but I take a lot of things from any channel with a grain of salt unless of course it's someone like Raoul who knows more than what he's talking about.
GCN doesn't do science. Case closed. The difference is GCN is sponsored, hence they cannot be unbiased. Raoul is an engineer, giving his professional opinion. Ignore at your peril.
Thank you again for the information about carbon bike parts in real life! Just facts, no hidden marketing, a lot of knowledge and experience! And I’m lmao, because I wrote a comment on the gcn video (despite the fact that I usually like their stuff) that anyone who’s interested in carbon technology and bikes should take a look at your channel... and in less than a day: this video occurred... 😊 keep up the great work 👍🏻
Sharp edges creating indent are a very important thing to look at ! I had to throw a brand new mtb handlebar after mounting brake lever BELOW torque spec. Because the edge was sharp it dig in the bar. Now, like Raoul i take a file to round the edge of all parts i clamp on carbon, it's critical.
Thanks for the informative videos. I had a pair of 3ttt mutant 6061 road alloy bars catastrophically fail to the left of the stem back in 2001. They had, in hindsight a questionable design feature of two opposite placed thumb print shaped indents either side of the stem clamp area. I had them 13 months so was 1 month off the warranty date! Did have injuries and damaged bike. I learned from that and since use either 7075 or 2014 alloy bars on my road bike. I change them when i think they req changing. Couldn't bring myself to use carbon bars though.
You are right Raoul, the Shimano DuraAce stuff from those times is pretty indestructible when properly mounted and not messed with. I have an original Shimano DuraAce headset on my 1981 Follis and it is still very smooth. I also have a Mavic 603 Titanium Cartridge Bottom bracket on that same bike and it spins exactly like the way you showed despite the almost 40 years. With perfect factory alignment, good quality, good size bearings and a well protected enclosure and they will outlast your knees. I have had many more modern set-ups go bad on me since on "modern" bikes. I find the comments on measuring bearings under load funny. When a 2 year old modern BB feels like a coffee grinder and will not spin one full turn you do not need to measure under load to know it is shot and eats many watts. I also have great doubt about the BB stiffness argument as far as I know the deformation is elastic and the energy stored in any deformation is given back at a different time in the pedal stroke that's why so many modern frames feel hard on the legs. In the 40 years I ride I have seen only two true ground breaking innovations: clip-on pedals and indexed shifting integrated in the brake hoods. Maybe 1x with 12 or so gears in the back might make the short list in a few years... All the rest I can give up on ;)...
You got the point! Reliability! And instead to expend a lot of money on lightness expend this money on a good coach! Fitness is the one that makes difference not a couple of grams less on the bike.
@@antonhelsgaun Would not trust a carbon bar as cheap as this. Yet, for hiring a coach to make sense, you'll need more than a few lessons, and those will be far more expensive than even a quality carbon bar.
Great sliced views of bars.!!!. I love the FSA carbon wing. They have been engineered / stress tested . Be careful when clamping handle bars into stems evenly and don't over torque.!!!
I think I'm gonna stick to my aluminium bar, even though I've had carbon ergonova 3t bar in the past (which cracked in a crash with a motorist). But since then I've had all alum, and I've learned to like it again. Haven't had any issues in the alum yet, even though know they can fail too. I do like that alum bars are much cheaper in costs.
In the GCN video, the 2nd test for impact look more like simulating impact hitting potholes and ruts while holding onto the drops. It may not be the best way to show crash impact like a frontal impact but more like an indication of how much force it can take before breaking.
When you put the weight on the drops, you are allowing the entire bar to flex, dissipating some of the force before it hits the stem. Typical riding positions would put more stress on the stem area, and at least some force on the shifter mounting area. By "coincidence", both of those are points of interest in carbon bar failures.
David Turner #51 yes true, people just want to believe bike manufacturers make perfect stuff. They blindly defend any critic of products. What riders fail to remember is the bike industry doesn’t have the same quality control as alot of other manufacturers products. Remember it is only a “bike”
Hav been riding with lightweight aluminium nadle bar (Deda Newton 215 anatomic and now a normally curved one). Have crashed several times and after 9 years of use I still would trust that more than a new carbon handle bar (but guess it matters which one). Also think I may have tested it harder than few others, so unless a handle bar is badly made or has evolved a problem through a crash (like my Dura ace cranks had) I guess it matters rather little if carbon or aluminium. But I was starting to get a bit nervous with my first Deda bar, but think there is no problem for 100 kg guy climbing a 26% slope on the big front ring still ... .
Very interesting content as always, thanks a lot for uploading that sort of stuff ! Personnally, as a racer and beeing on a budget I made the decision to stick with aluminium frames and components untill I can afford a high-end carbon bike and potential spare bars/stem. My dream bike would actually be an aluminium frame with Dura-ace and Mavic Ksyrium pro wheels as we can get under 7kg around 4000Eur in my country= reliable components and a classic touch ... plus a good conversation subjects on group rides :)
Makes sense, I do prefer the ride of a good carbon bike however. As a racer, reliability is king, you will see much bigger gains training hard than saving a few grams of weight on the bike.
I have a bontrager race lite aero bar. 340g aluminum, flat tops with holes for internal cable routing. I highly recommend them if anyone is looking for some aero bars in aluminum.
I would think that that is a reliable bar based on the weight. It has over 100 grams more material in it than a round bar without holes and profile. It makes sense, and demonstrates the design compromise that the holes and shape bring compared with a round profile without holes.
OK, OK, whats the deal with the Collnago hanging on the wall? is it going to be cut up? what model is it? do you ever come across any c59's or c60's that have failures? any M10's? cx-1's?
Do you have any interest or plans to quantify the characteristics of various carbon components? Having a seasonally updated table with strength/strain as well as vibration damping capability would be great. You talked about a testing setup, and I think we'd all like to hear your views on any results so far.
In reference to impact testing, it seems that’s the vertical testing is to prevent the”Just Riding Along” failures and subsequent lawsuits. I’m assuming the forward impact test isn’t considered by manufacturers as once the bike is crashed the bar breaking is of minimal importance as long as it didn’t cause the crash. If a bar/stem is overtightened, is it more susceptible to failure in that area? I’d assume so.
Yes, your assumption is probably correct, however I would be concerned about sharp broken edges impacting the body in a crash. Any delamination or void in the stem clamp area would reduce the structural properties significantly, which often are the cause of "Just Riding Along" failures. As I suggested testing for flaws on carbon products is usually more relevant than a fatigue or impact test once a design has been validated.
Luescher Teknik Do you think that the majority of parts failing at the stem have been over tightened? Also given the shape of different bars I would expect some to handle frontal impact better than others, however this is a whole different can of worms. I agree with your comments regarding testing for voids and etc. My family background is military/aerospace manufacturing and the majority of the cost associated with many of the parts be them metallic or carbon is QC and material source/documentation. Unfortunately I don’t think that cycling consumers would tolerate the expense necessary for what you or I would consider “proper” QC. Also I don’t think the majority of the companies in the industry are capable of performing that level of QC given that most everything is made by a third party in Taiwan.
For sure, QC is a majority cost in aerospace, that is my background also, however when you know how much a part costs to make in China and the price it retails for in the west, AND then listen to people say they can't afford testing with such large margins......... it is a bit steep to me. A lot of the damage we find would be related to overtightening and manufacturing flaws, often in combination.
I just bought a 2007 trek slr 1500. It has literally 4 miles on it and then hung up. Do aluminum bars this old get weak and fail even if they have never been used? Does aluminum just get weak with age, or does it get weak with use? Thank you for your time.
I get the point of an apples to apples comparison, but I do expect the handlebar to do the same job regardless of its aero profile or internal routing. So I don't really have a problem with the GCN test from that perspective.
I’ve broken carbon bars. One with a very minor fall, another as part of a car accident, where I hit the deck, but not the car. I’m sticking with aluminum from now on
budes matpicu Those riders that put a lot of power through the handlebars they are often on aluminium. They are only scared if the bar fails mid ride and that cause them to fall, than that's a shame.
Also pros look for certain heavier parts to stay within the UCI weight limit. Many parts are so light , you can go under the weight limit pretty easy, cost not being a concern. A load bearing safety critical component is the perfect place to gain strength and add a bit of weight. Light wheels and tires make much more practical weight savings.
Ive got a chinese integrated handlebar and crashed on them plenty of times. No damages what so ever, Same goes with the frame. Pretty high quality carbon. Had a authentic carbon wheelset but it cracked after a crash.. Pretty disappointed for a high end wheelset to fail.
Anyone who thinks the aircraft industry is having few problems with carbon might want to search that, not true. Carbon is amazing but it is not good with dynamic loads even formula 1 car's use other materials in the crash structure around the driver. S-glass or Kevlar better with dynamic loads. Aluminum alloy can be hard to beat for the money.
3T ergnova alloy for me. I chuck em in the recycling bin when I feel they have been used up. I also sand back the internals of my stem edges. Not sure why they don't do that at factory...
Where is the carbon vs al vibration dampening vid link? I searched your channel for vibration and dampening and got no results. I also searched for bars and didn't see it.
wouldn't a larger stem clamp be a good idea for using carbon bars to spread the load across a greater area? I have a ZIPP Sl Sprint stem which is much larger than normal stems, I've also seen very narrow stems which look like it would create pressure points on the bars.
it is not fatigue that is the problem.... (although, and I say this with all respect, in 30 years of cycling I have never seen an AL bar fail at all and that includes years of shop work) it is impact problems and carbon sucks at impact. I have seen many carbon bars fail. Anecdotal evidence....
Sills71 seen lots of alloy bars fail happens a lot with mtb and not in crashes, seen road bike bars fail also, worked in a lot of bike shops and there's a difference in were you work to what you see fail, funny like that
Another great video! Thanks! Couple of quick questions. First, I know GCN concentrated on road bars but are MTB bars similar although the design is probably for strength in the strength|weight calculation. Second, on MTB bars (and any bars in general) at what point do users need to consider replacement if one has no way of determining damage? (i.e. clamp imprinting on outside coat or scratches from impact). For example around 2 min Alex shows similar impact damage to what I have seen in my carbon MTB bars: czcams.com/video/-Gk7FKcwtSE/video.htmlm Is this the type of blemish you would scan or replace?
On an expensive bar, a scan would be worthwhile on an impact area and on the clamp areas. As I said in the video, we used to replace our aluminium bars every year regardless, because they are cheap it makes sense to replace. I would replace an aluminium bar if it had a deep scratch, imprint or dent.
Got to be mindful people of conflicting torque specifications on stuff attaching to carbon bars. For example, the Shimano 9100 STI shifters call for 6-8nm which is insane. If you torque to that you are going to crack the bars.
Rewatching ths video for propably the 50th time, feel the need to point out that the drop test simulates hitting a pothole or curb while riding instead of crashing
Alors moi je sors d un cintre alu Cannondale et j ai remplacer par un 3t superergo carbone et y a une super différence déjà en confort je sents moins les vibrations etc et la prise en main et bien meilleur donc faut juste bien choisir !!
Aluminum can be repaired, but it must be heat treated afterwards. This requires large ovens with precise regulation. My framebuilder sends aluminum frames to anoutside heat treatment facility.
You say there is a galvanic response between aluminum and carbon. So how do they bond them in a carbon fork with aluminum steerer? Very interesting and informative videos.
Now that I'm riding a custom steel frame bike, I'm doing away with carbon bits. I'm replacing them with aluminum. It's just worry free. Sure, nothing is guaranteed and any material can fail, but metal is just more idiot-proof especially when you buy it from a reputable manufacturer. I think there are some carbon parts that have proven themselves to be reliable like forks (provided that they are worked on by a good mechanic of course). These days, anyone who puts any real miles on a bike just has to learn to wrench as much of their bike as they can just to be on the safe side. But yeah, I'm enjoying riding a bike that I don't have to worry about when I hit rough roads and it looks like some makers (like Shimano) are hydroforming aluminum to get nice aero & flat top shapes for bars.
Makes a lot of sense to me with a one-piece construction, as the frames. Only consideration is that you might be less willing to replace it, in case of a crash... I have my eyes on a one-piece bar from Black Inc. Have you ever done any cut-ups on any of their products? (Same guys who makes Factor bikes.) They seem very capable..? Thanks Raoul, great videos!
Thanks again Raoul! I've mentioned before how about setting up a Patreon/donation page to help with costs of video production. Definitely want to see your channel grow.
Luescher Teknik - In my mind the two channels similar to your are "Curious Droid and Rob Miles (A.I. theory)" both are producing extremely high quality and condensed technical information about their topics. As the interest has grown both asked for support via Patreon to improve quality with equipment and consistency for scheduling, since both are more esoteric and harder to monetize. I'd hoped that Maven and Miller would step in to help you more, since there's much bigger interest in composites. Maven's video with you (how learned of your work) is his 4th most popular and coincidentally Miller as well, but I get the feeling both given the choice would seek a more commercial route. That's sets up and inherent conflict for both of them. There nothing wrong with asking for support, I worked as collections based entomology for a decade in natural history museum and it frankly used to get old with people expecting free and rapid identification well institution had budgetary problems.
why don't all bike manufacturers use ultrasound to test every frame? for the money we spend, you would think it a matter of fact kinda thing sheesh! these voids are scary as hell !
Of course the actual riding loads are important, but also the in service aspects are important. In some types of racing crashes are common and the parts should be designed to survive those. Bikes are for riding, you should not have to nurse it all the time.
I can think of a time where the load on a bar is vertical. It happened to me recently when i hit a super deep pot hole. If you're possitioned right over/on top of the bar at the moment of impact i guess that creates a vertical load. In my case it destroyed my carbon bars completely!
Deda SuperZero Aero Alloy Road Handlebars $55.00 305 grams - Deda SuperZero Carbon Aero Road Bike Handlebars $155.95 215 grams. A $100.00 just for 90 grams difference? I think it does not worth paying $155.95 just eliminate 90 grams. I would choose alloy handlebar. Tks.
You've unintentionally hit on the big problem with carbon - critical damage can be completely invisible. Carbon fibre is made from layers of (usually) woven fibres, laid on top of each other and then bonded with resin. Delamination is when those layers become separated, which causes weakness. Impacts and poor manufacturing quality control can lead to internal delamination, which you can't see, but which is still a weakness in the component.
You've unintentionally hit on the big problem with carbon - critical damage can be completely invisible. Carbon fibre is made from layers of (usually) woven fibres, laid on top of each other and then bonded with resin. Delamination is when those layers become separated, which causes weakness. Impacts and poor manufacturing quality control can lead to internal delamination, which you can't see, but which is still a weakness in the component.
Question is how can I determine whether something is delaminated or not. I can't, right? I mean at the end of the day you can't ultrasonic scan every single part after some little crash. Therefore my question remains how dangerous such a delamination is? Does it instantly fail or slowly bend ?
Again, that's the problem - it's impossible to verify whether a carbon part is even safe to ride when it's brand new, never mind after a crash, unless you analyse it under the scanner. You can see from the videos on this channel how many frames have manufacturing defects in them, although they're not all actual causes of failure. The problem with assessing the danger due to delaminations is that it depends on how big the delamination is, whereabouts in the component it's occurred and what crashes, or impacts, the component might experience to trigger failure. Carbon failure though is, as a rule, sudden - no bending, stretching and very little warning. There are videos on this channel talking about warning signs, like cracking in the paint, unusual flex/movement, but generally it's safest to replace a component after any kind of crash, or impact.
I could listen to this chap talk all day. A proper knowledgeable engineer. Great vids.
What Leon said!
Ditto.
With the speed of him talking you need all day to watch a 5min video... 😉
Watch at 1.25 speed: perfect!
LOL
Mitchell Steindler thx
he sounds stupid at .5 speed
at 1.5 he sounds like Guy Martin. I guess thats the difference between thinking on a road bike vs on a 200mph bike.
thanks...helps a lot
The whole point of any GCN video, where some particular manufacturer or product is involved, is always advertising. Therefore they have taken a fancy aero carbon bar to show of, the one they hope to sell the most of, because of the bigger earning margin. Actually, advertising is the whole point of the vast majority of youtube videos nowadays. In that perspective, your videos are a rare and striking deviation from the bunch. You give always actual information to the people. I’m very grateful for your cut-up analysis. As far as I know, you’re the only source for such information about the build quality of today’s carbon bike frames and parts.
As an automotive engineer, I wouldn’t have thought, what crap the big bike manufacturers would sell for such high prices. They even don’t seem to bother about potential catastrophic failures during the ride. I hope they’ll eventually evolve the manufacturing, because for now, from what I’ve seen on your channel, I am a bit hesitant in buying carbon frames.
My Carbon Bars Snapped! I am 130 lbs ...K Force FSA ..Less than a Year of Riding... But my Aluminum Bars from the 80's are still going strong!
Well done, thoroughly explained, looking objectively at both sides and pros/cons of the two materials, without any marketing nor sponsorship bias pressures. Thank you
Nice to hear someone talk about something he actually knows. Could listen to this the whole day. +1 subscriber. 😀
Tremendous amount of knowledge ! Thank you
I love Raoul Luescher's videos. The guy is so smart and so practical. His carbon wheel videos are really incredible as well.
So glad you've done this.
Find it incredibly frustrating whenever GCN touch science. I know it's meant to be entertaining and have mass appeal but sometimes they seem to actively take steps to avoid being able to make valid comparisons - not using same shape bars in this instance, not doing crossovers in time-trial tests etc.
If they could take what you've said on board and do a more indepth video (giving appropriate credit of course) for those who're interested that'd be amazing. I'm sure there's the market for it.
adamgisherwood sponsored show
I know, hence my pleasure at shows that aren't (i.e. this) existing
The problem with a channel like GCN is they have to be diplomatic and make sure to offend no one. They don't want to take a hard stance on some products or brands because they'd become an enemy to a lot of people or even be discredited for saying something honest, yet somehow controversial. The few people they will likely offend are engineers, bike mechanics, and other people who already know it's nonsense anyway. I loved some of GCN's other videos, presenter challenges etc for their entertainment value, but I take a lot of things from any channel with a grain of salt unless of course it's someone like Raoul who knows more than what he's talking about.
GCN doesn't do science. Case closed.
The difference is GCN is sponsored, hence they cannot be unbiased.
Raoul is an engineer, giving his professional opinion. Ignore at your peril.
I would venture to guess GCN presenters didn't take many science courses over the span of their education.
Thank you again for the information about carbon bike parts in real life! Just facts, no hidden marketing, a lot of knowledge and experience! And I’m lmao, because I wrote a comment on the gcn video (despite the fact that I usually like their stuff) that anyone who’s interested in carbon technology and bikes should take a look at your channel... and in less than a day: this video occurred... 😊 keep up the great work 👍🏻
More incredibly useful information, thanks!
Thanks for the video. As usual nothing is as simple as you might think. You are a star.
Sharp edges creating indent are a very important thing to look at ! I had to throw a brand new mtb handlebar after mounting brake lever BELOW torque spec. Because the edge was sharp it dig in the bar. Now, like Raoul i take a file to round the edge of all parts i clamp on carbon, it's critical.
Let GCN start the discussion and then you can give us the independent opinion backed up with your knowledge and expertise.
Fantastic stuff Raoul.
Thanks for the informative videos. I had a pair of 3ttt mutant 6061 road alloy bars catastrophically fail to the left of the stem back in 2001. They had, in hindsight a questionable design feature of two opposite placed thumb print shaped indents either side of the stem clamp area. I had them 13 months so was 1 month off the warranty date! Did have injuries and damaged bike. I learned from that and since use either 7075 or 2014 alloy bars on my road bike. I change them when i think they req changing. Couldn't bring myself to use carbon bars though.
one of your best video so far!
You are right Raoul, the Shimano DuraAce stuff from those times is pretty indestructible when properly mounted and not messed with. I have an original Shimano DuraAce headset on my 1981 Follis and it is still very smooth. I also have a Mavic 603 Titanium Cartridge Bottom bracket on that same bike and it spins exactly like the way you showed despite the almost 40 years. With perfect factory alignment, good quality, good size bearings and a well protected enclosure and they will outlast your knees. I have had many more modern set-ups go bad on me since on "modern" bikes. I find the comments on measuring bearings under load funny. When a 2 year old modern BB feels like a coffee grinder and will not spin one full turn you do not need to measure under load to know it is shot and eats many watts. I also have great doubt about the BB stiffness argument as far as I know the deformation is elastic and the energy stored in any deformation is given back at a different time in the pedal stroke that's why so many modern frames feel hard on the legs. In the 40 years I ride I have seen only two true ground breaking innovations: clip-on pedals and indexed shifting integrated in the brake hoods. Maybe 1x with 12 or so gears in the back might make the short list in a few years... All the rest I can give up on ;)...
excellent info as always! Thanks!
Awesome video, the information the manufacturer doesn’t inform you about. Thank you, love this info.
Top quality video as always
You got the point! Reliability!
And instead to expend a lot of money on lightness expend this money on a good coach!
Fitness is the one that makes difference not a couple of grams less on the bike.
You can get carbon handlebars for ~$35
@@antonhelsgaun Would not trust a carbon bar as cheap as this. Yet, for hiring a coach to make sense, you'll need more than a few lessons, and those will be far more expensive than even a quality carbon bar.
evidently one too many! Thumbs up mate, we love ya!
I'm also curious on mountain bike parts the difference, usually being much higher weight, I wonder if its less or more?
Great sliced views of bars.!!!. I love the FSA carbon wing. They have been engineered / stress tested . Be careful when clamping handle bars into stems evenly and don't over torque.!!!
I wish he did the Time Ergodrive handlebars are they are one piece (RTM process and mandrel). The only carbon handlebar I would trust.
Good to listen to someone who knows what he's talking about!
Thank you for the videos
I think I'm gonna stick to my aluminium bar, even though I've had carbon ergonova 3t bar in the past (which cracked in a crash with a motorist). But since then I've had all alum, and I've learned to like it again. Haven't had any issues in the alum yet, even though know they can fail too. I do like that alum bars are much cheaper in costs.
most credible Roadbike-tech channel on youtube ...I love it! Thanks a ton for sharing your knowledget. pls. keep it coming :-)
I share your content everywhere
In the GCN video, the 2nd test for impact look more like simulating impact hitting potholes and ruts while holding onto the drops. It may not be the best way to show crash impact like a frontal impact but more like an indication of how much force it can take before breaking.
When you put the weight on the drops, you are allowing the entire bar to flex, dissipating some of the force before it hits the stem. Typical riding positions would put more stress on the stem area, and at least some force on the shifter mounting area. By "coincidence", both of those are points of interest in carbon bar failures.
Your in depth reviews of frames and bar cut ups tells the real truth manufactures don't want people to see,everybody makes parts on Mondays 😆
David Turner #51 yes true, people just want to believe bike manufacturers make perfect stuff. They blindly defend any critic of products. What riders fail to remember is the bike industry doesn’t have the same quality control as alot of other manufacturers products. Remember it is only a “bike”
Hav been riding with lightweight aluminium nadle bar (Deda Newton 215 anatomic and now a normally curved one). Have crashed several times and after 9 years of use I still would trust that more than a new carbon handle bar (but guess it matters which one). Also think I may have tested it harder than few others, so unless a handle bar is badly made or has evolved a problem through a crash (like my Dura ace cranks had) I guess it matters rather little if carbon or aluminium. But I was starting to get a bit nervous with my first Deda bar, but think there is no problem for 100 kg guy climbing a 26% slope on the big front ring still ... .
Thanks! Plus one subscriber. A ratio is : per hundred marketants on youtube only one engineer : )
Very interesting content as always, thanks a lot for uploading that sort of stuff !
Personnally, as a racer and beeing on a budget I made the decision to stick with aluminium frames and components untill I can afford a high-end carbon bike and potential spare bars/stem. My dream bike would actually be an aluminium frame with Dura-ace and Mavic Ksyrium pro wheels as we can get under 7kg around 4000Eur in my country= reliable components and a classic touch ... plus a good conversation subjects on group rides :)
Makes sense, I do prefer the ride of a good carbon bike however. As a racer, reliability is king, you will see much bigger gains training hard than saving a few grams of weight on the bike.
I'd love to see you on GCN!
He would have to shill out to be on GCN.
My favorite are the syntace alu racelite. Very strong.
Very well said without the bullshit! you've got less subscriber spot on that, but what you got are the smart ones :)
Do you think you think to use a carbon bar with a carbon stem to get the full benefit of dampening or it doesn't matter what the stem material is
awesome channel maybe in future videos when showing the handle bars with cracks can you split screen and show us a side by side with the scan? cheers
3T aero bar makes my hands weep with joy!. Just not made in 48cm
I have a bontrager race lite aero bar. 340g aluminum, flat tops with holes for internal cable routing. I highly recommend them if anyone is looking for some aero bars in aluminum.
I would think that that is a reliable bar based on the weight. It has over 100 grams more material in it than a round bar without holes and profile. It makes sense, and demonstrates the design compromise that the holes and shape bring compared with a round profile without holes.
Do you think the 2 in 1 stem and bar handlebars would be stronger or would that just move the damage to the stem and steerer tube?
OK, OK, whats the deal with the Collnago hanging on the wall? is it going to be cut up? what model is it? do you ever come across any c59's or c60's that have failures? any M10's? cx-1's?
hi great video do you repair broken carbon bar.
Raoul, are titanium frames subject to the same micro fractures that you reference can be problematic with aluminum handlebars or stems?
Yes, particularly in welds but also inclusions in the grain structure, you don't often see welded titanium structural parts on an aircraft.
Would a stem like the Ritchey 260 with more "wrap" around the bar be better to avoid those rear clamp point loads?
I like those stems.
Do you have any interest or plans to quantify the characteristics of various carbon components? Having a seasonally updated table with strength/strain as well as vibration damping capability would be great. You talked about a testing setup, and I think we'd all like to hear your views on any results so far.
Plenty of interest, just not much time to do this rather large undertaking, it would need to be a funded project.
so, any recommendation for brand of carbon bar/product?
What’s your opinion on Carbon Vs Aluminum fork steers?
While looking at all the delaminations and cracks in the video, my pulse rose and I started feeling anxious ha ha
I think the vertical testing could be for bunny hopping curbs lol
Delaminated or the coating / finish rubbed off?
In reference to impact testing, it seems that’s the vertical testing is to prevent the”Just Riding Along” failures and subsequent lawsuits. I’m assuming the forward impact test isn’t considered by manufacturers as once the bike is crashed the bar breaking is of minimal importance as long as it didn’t cause the crash.
If a bar/stem is overtightened, is it more susceptible to failure in that area? I’d assume so.
Ryon Beachner. Exactly right, this is "normal usage" testing rather than crash testing.
Yes, your assumption is probably correct, however I would be concerned about sharp broken edges impacting the body in a crash.
Any delamination or void in the stem clamp area would reduce the structural properties significantly, which often are the cause of "Just Riding Along" failures. As I suggested testing for flaws on carbon products is usually more relevant than a fatigue or impact test once a design has been validated.
Luescher Teknik Do you think that the majority of parts failing at the stem have been over tightened? Also given the shape of different bars I would expect some to handle frontal impact better than others, however this is a whole different can of worms.
I agree with your comments regarding testing for voids and etc. My family background is military/aerospace manufacturing and the majority of the cost associated with many of the parts be them metallic or carbon is QC and material source/documentation.
Unfortunately I don’t think that cycling consumers would tolerate the expense necessary for what you or I would consider “proper” QC. Also I don’t think the majority of the companies in the industry are capable of performing that level of QC given that most everything is made by a third party in Taiwan.
For sure, QC is a majority cost in aerospace, that is my background also, however when you know how much a part costs to make in China and the price it retails for in the west, AND then listen to people say they can't afford testing with such large margins......... it is a bit steep to me.
A lot of the damage we find would be related to overtightening and manufacturing flaws, often in combination.
I wish you one day cut, diagnose, review non name brand frames such as Carbonda, Hong Fu, which of course make for major bike manufacturers.
What are your favorite carbon frames sir?
I just bought a 2007 trek slr 1500. It has literally 4 miles on it and then hung up. Do aluminum bars this old get weak and fail even if they have never been used? Does aluminum just get weak with age, or does it get weak with use? Thank you for your time.
When Raoul talks, the world listens!
I get the point of an apples to apples comparison, but I do expect the handlebar to do the same job regardless of its aero profile or internal routing. So I don't really have a problem with the GCN test from that perspective.
I’ve broken carbon bars. One with a very minor fall, another as part of a car accident, where I hit the deck, but not the car. I’m sticking with aluminum from now on
guess why many pros are on your side too
budes matpicu
Those riders that put a lot of power through the handlebars they are often on aluminium. They are only scared if the bar fails mid ride and that cause them to fall, than that's a shame.
Also pros look for certain heavier parts to stay within the UCI weight limit. Many parts are so light , you can go under the weight limit pretty easy, cost not being a concern.
A load bearing safety critical component is the perfect place to gain strength and add a bit of weight. Light wheels and tires make much more practical weight savings.
Droptest...How often do you drop from the sky when cycling? Never.
Thanks for the video.
how often do you flex a bike and test its strength inside a powerful machine while cycling? never. thanks for your comment.
Ive got a chinese integrated handlebar and crashed on them plenty of times. No damages what so ever, Same goes with the frame. Pretty high quality carbon. Had a authentic carbon wheelset but it cracked after a crash.. Pretty disappointed for a high end wheelset to fail.
Anyone who thinks the aircraft industry is having few problems with carbon might want to search that, not true. Carbon is amazing but it is not good with dynamic loads even formula 1 car's use other materials in the crash structure around the driver. S-glass or Kevlar better with dynamic loads. Aluminum alloy can be hard to beat for the money.
my Zipp stem ruined by carbon bars at the clamp... the 3T stem had the correct dimension and did not destroy the same bar..
Thank you, please make more vids
Loads of cheap Chinese carbon bars that work well, are reasonably light and shock absorbing. I'm a fan.
Lol. . “Cheap and Chinese.” You must not be a fan of your teeth.
@@DavidJones-sc6jc Ignorance is bliss - had no problems after two years.
3T ergnova alloy for me. I chuck em in the recycling bin when I feel they have been used up. I also sand back the internals of my stem edges. Not sure why they don't do that at factory...
Removing the sharp edges at the stem makes sense and is recommended, we all know why they don't do this at the factory!
Where is the carbon vs al vibration dampening vid link? I searched your channel for vibration and dampening and got no results. I also searched for bars and didn't see it.
I haven't made the vibration damping video .....yet. The 3T bar cut up is in there however.
wouldn't a larger stem clamp be a good idea for using carbon bars to spread the load across a greater area? I have a ZIPP Sl Sprint stem which is much larger than normal stems, I've also seen very narrow stems which look like it would create pressure points on the bars.
it is not fatigue that is the problem.... (although, and I say this with all respect, in 30 years of cycling I have never seen an AL bar fail at all and that includes years of shop work) it is impact problems and carbon sucks at impact. I have seen many carbon bars fail. Anecdotal evidence....
Sills71 seen lots of alloy bars fail happens a lot with mtb and not in crashes, seen road bike bars fail also, worked in a lot of bike shops and there's a difference in were you work to what you see fail, funny like that
Another great video! Thanks! Couple of quick questions. First, I know GCN concentrated on road bars but are MTB bars similar although the design is probably for strength in the strength|weight calculation. Second, on MTB bars (and any bars in general) at what point do users need to consider replacement if one has no way of determining damage? (i.e. clamp imprinting on outside coat or scratches from impact).
For example around 2 min Alex shows similar impact damage to what I have seen in my carbon MTB bars:
czcams.com/video/-Gk7FKcwtSE/video.htmlm
Is this the type of blemish you would scan or replace?
On an expensive bar, a scan would be worthwhile on an impact area and on the clamp areas.
As I said in the video, we used to replace our aluminium bars every year regardless, because they are cheap it makes sense to replace. I would replace an aluminium bar if it had a deep scratch, imprint or dent.
Got to be mindful people of conflicting torque specifications on stuff attaching to carbon bars. For example, the Shimano 9100 STI shifters call for 6-8nm which is insane. If you torque to that you are going to crack the bars.
DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT EC 90 CARBON FORKS? ARE THEY GOOD?
Crazy hands
What wheel is that next to the S Works Frame.....
Rewatching ths video for propably the 50th time, feel the need to point out that the drop test simulates hitting a pothole or curb while riding instead of crashing
The few seconds of silence in the intro made me anxious
Alors moi je sors d un cintre alu Cannondale et j ai remplacer par un 3t superergo carbone et y a une super différence déjà en confort je sents moins les vibrations etc et la prise en main et bien meilleur donc faut juste bien choisir !!
Speaking of aluminium, I was wondering, can you make a video on aluminium bike frame repair, or is that not your cup of tea?
Jan Willem Kuilenburg does anyone profesionaly repair alloy frames
Aluminum can be repaired, but it must be heat treated afterwards. This requires large ovens with precise regulation.
My framebuilder sends aluminum frames to anoutside heat treatment facility.
You say there is a galvanic response between aluminum and carbon. So how do they bond them in a carbon fork with aluminum steerer? Very interesting and informative videos.
Now that I'm riding a custom steel frame bike, I'm doing away with carbon bits. I'm replacing them with aluminum. It's just worry free. Sure, nothing is guaranteed and any material can fail, but metal is just more idiot-proof especially when you buy it from a reputable manufacturer.
I think there are some carbon parts that have proven themselves to be reliable like forks (provided that they are worked on by a good mechanic of course). These days, anyone who puts any real miles on a bike just has to learn to wrench as much of their bike as they can just to be on the safe side.
But yeah, I'm enjoying riding a bike that I don't have to worry about when I hit rough roads and it looks like some makers (like Shimano) are hydroforming aluminum to get nice aero & flat top shapes for bars.
I have many carbon bikes, not one broke. I had one carbon bar, an Easton and it broke in 2 weeks. Never carbon bars.
Why did they choose... Because it wasn't a test, it was a paid marketing feature for ControlTech
So a one-piece bar and stem is actually better?
If it is made well, without flaws, it will distribute the loads better.
Makes a lot of sense to me with a one-piece construction, as the frames. Only consideration is that you might be less willing to replace it, in case of a crash...
I have my eyes on a one-piece bar from Black Inc. Have you ever done any cut-ups on any of their products? (Same guys who makes Factor bikes.) They seem very capable..?
Thanks Raoul, great videos!
This guy needs to do a gardening program,He had no idea about materials testing
"Replacing handlebars is cheaper than replacing half your teeth or your brain" 😁😁😁😁 The Specialized drop bar got it's drop dropped....
Magnesium lithium alloys and graphene composites are much lighter
Thanks again Raoul! I've mentioned before how about setting up a Patreon/donation page to help with costs of video production. Definitely want to see your channel grow.
Thanks, I don't know anything about setting something like that up or how it works. It would be great to have the sort of budget GCN has!
Luescher Teknik - In my mind the two channels similar to your are "Curious Droid and Rob Miles (A.I. theory)" both are producing extremely high quality and condensed technical information about their topics. As the interest has grown both asked for support via Patreon to improve quality with equipment and consistency for scheduling, since both are more esoteric and harder to monetize. I'd hoped that Maven and Miller would step in to help you more, since there's much bigger interest in composites. Maven's video with you (how learned of your work) is his 4th most popular and coincidentally Miller as well, but I get the feeling both given the choice would seek a more commercial route. That's sets up and inherent conflict for both of them. There nothing wrong with asking for support, I worked as collections based entomology for a decade in natural history museum and it frankly used to get old with people expecting free and rapid identification well institution had budgetary problems.
An alloy bar wrapped in carbon done well would be ideal, ITM does this process
Williams and Velocite have carbon wrapped Aluminum also.
Unfortunately it is not that simple, there are other problems with this, I have one here to cut up actually.
thanks for a cliffhanger, we are all looking forward...
why don't all bike manufacturers use ultrasound to test every frame? for the money we spend, you would think it a matter of fact kinda thing
sheesh! these voids are scary as hell !
Seems people here are arguing that bars should be built to sustain crashes, not to the actual loads of riding the bike...
Of course the actual riding loads are important, but also the in service aspects are important. In some types of racing crashes are common and the parts should be designed to survive those. Bikes are for riding, you should not have to nurse it all the time.
Would be good if you can include some of the better known direct to public mainland Chinese factories such a Yeoleo, Carbonda, Flyxii, etc etc.
My Deda handlebars have never cracked nor delaminated
I can think of a time where the load on a bar is vertical. It happened to me recently when i hit a super deep pot hole. If you're possitioned right over/on top of the bar at the moment of impact i guess that creates a vertical load. In my case it destroyed my carbon bars completely!
Deda SuperZero Aero Alloy Road Handlebars $55.00 305 grams - Deda SuperZero Carbon Aero Road Bike Handlebars $155.95 215 grams. A $100.00 just for 90 grams difference? I think it does not worth paying $155.95 just eliminate 90 grams. I would choose alloy handlebar. Tks.
At the dentist... ooof!
So, whats your point?
What is a delamination? I cant see anything
That is the thing, often nothing is visible, ultrasound scans will find it easily however and that is what is marked in yellow crayon.
You've unintentionally hit on the big problem with carbon - critical damage can be completely invisible. Carbon fibre is made from layers of (usually) woven fibres, laid on top of each other and then bonded with resin. Delamination is when those layers become separated, which causes weakness. Impacts and poor manufacturing quality control can lead to internal delamination, which you can't see, but which is still a weakness in the component.
You've unintentionally hit on the big problem with carbon - critical damage can be completely invisible. Carbon fibre is made from layers of (usually) woven fibres, laid on top of each other and then bonded with resin. Delamination is when those layers become separated, which causes weakness. Impacts and poor manufacturing quality control can lead to internal delamination, which you can't see, but which is still a weakness in the component.
Question is how can I determine whether something is delaminated or not.
I can't, right?
I mean at the end of the day you can't ultrasonic scan every single part after some little crash.
Therefore my question remains how dangerous such a delamination is? Does it instantly fail or slowly bend ?
Again, that's the problem - it's impossible to verify whether a carbon part is even safe to ride when it's brand new, never mind after a crash, unless you analyse it under the scanner. You can see from the videos on this channel how many frames have manufacturing defects in them, although they're not all actual causes of failure.
The problem with assessing the danger due to delaminations is that it depends on how big the delamination is, whereabouts in the component it's occurred and what crashes, or impacts, the component might experience to trigger failure. Carbon failure though is, as a rule, sudden - no bending, stretching and very little warning. There are videos on this channel talking about warning signs, like cracking in the paint, unusual flex/movement, but generally it's safest to replace a component after any kind of crash, or impact.
I would like to see Merida carbon bike cut up, they claim to have no wrinkles.
Don't they all claim to have no wrinkles ;)