Large Churches Aren't Joining the GMC (as much as was hoped)
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2024
- It is an open secret at this point that lots of former-UMC large churches are choosing to remain independent or to form their own pseudo-denominations. This segment is my reflections on whether or not this is a good thing. Or rather, why this is a good thing, and what promise it holds for the future.
Our medium sized church in CNY went independent due to the constant money grabbing and not listening to the congregation as to what our needs were. The Methodist hierarchy seemed to think they knew better than we did about our needs. As for the disaffiliation process, we were lied to right from the start, so once we were disaffiliated the last thing we wanted to do was join up with any faction of the Methodist. We now serve Christ and are thriving as an Independant.
One thing I would like to see is a phone number for the closest GMCs a voicemail or something so we know what hours services are. I don't think you are wrong. But, in rural areas some small UMC's stayed because of fear of the charges$. A few left but they have no phone
I have been in leadership in our "medium-sized" former UMC church for the past 7 years (and a member for much longer). Disaffiliation was a bludgeoning of any church that didn't tow the line in the UMC. Here in Oklahoma, the terms of disaffiliation were not nearly as onerous and unthinkably harsh as other parts of the country. Living for so many years in connection with such spiritual darkness has taken its toll on how willing many former UMC churches are to jumping in right away to something new.
Jeffrey … you mention that there is no Trust Clause as in the UMC, so if it doesn’t work out for a church, that it should be fairly easy to move on from the GMC. I know of no one in our church, especially those in leadership over the past 5 or 6 years like myself, that would have any appetite whatsoever to go through another disaffiliation so soon after what has gone on with the UMC … even if it was an “easy” process.
I do know that there are many significant differences between the UMC and the GMC (well beyond just the Trust Clause). But, there are also a lot of similarities. I know that there is more than a little skepticism in my church (as well as with numerous others with whom I have spoken) that the GMC keep itself from evolving into a UMC-lite, or UMC 2.0. Only time will tell, and it is my fervent prayer that this does not happen. I only desire great things for the GMC.
We held our own through the past 4 years of Covid lockdowns and preparing for disaffiliation. We were one of the first churches out of the UMC back in the fall of 2022. Now that all of that is in the rearview mirror, we have seen significant growth … a renewed spirit and energy … over the past year or so since disaffiliation. We feel that we are in a great position to fulfill the call that God has on this local body.
This whole process has certainly left a deeply bitter taste in our mouths towards denominationalism. It is going to be quite a while before there will be much appetite within our congregation to even look at joining up with the GMC (or some other denomination). Not that we are opposed to working together with other faith communities … we welcome it. But putting ourselves under another denominational umbrella is not something I see happening.
I appreciate your putting a name and face on this issue. And of course what you say makes sense. I just stand in a different place with respect to 1) how willing churches should be to continue building new fellowships that might be painful to sever, and 2) how desperate we should be to have such denominational covenantal relationships. While I rejoice in the church growth and vitality you are seeing, I'm sad at how easily so many Methodist churches have become independent. It isn't really a legitimate way of thinking to get turned off to a whole framework because of one bad experience. It isn't right for a person to be suspicious of all black people because he had a bad experience with one black person. I don't know why it is acceptable to write off denominationalism altogether because of the harm the UMC did. My Bitter Medicine series argued that much of the pain that disaffiliation season caused was actually because our churches have grown weak in integrity and doctrine. Refusing to build connections because they might fall apart is like someone refusing to make friends when they move to a new town because their last batch of friends wasn't great. It's just a recipe for isolation. I hear you saying that your church has entered a time of growth and vitality, but I think the longterm impact of such disconnection leads to anomie and/or self-absorption. I hope I'm wrong. I hope y'all are able to engage in some sort of vulnerable, accountable covenantal connection with a network of churches. You don't have to call it a denomination, I guess.
Jeffrey, I don’t believe that a congregation has to be in a denomination in order to have a spiritual connection to sister churches. See in the NT how the primarily Gentile churches took up funds to support the Jewish Christians in the church in Jerusalem. By today’s standards those two groups of believers could have easily divided into two denominations back then, and probably would have if not for Paul’s efforts at trying to convince them that the unity of the Spirit was God’s will. A recent article by Dr Scott Field, president of the WCA, addresses the fact that 40 million adult believers have left the Institutional church within the last 25 years, with 100,000 congregations due to close in the near future. This article, plus your coverage of how many large former UMC congregations remain unaffiliated, only confirms for me that unless the IC is willing to submit to some radical changes, it will not survive regardless of the denominational affiliation. And if the Western culture continues to become more hostile towards orthodox Christianity, it will die sooner than later.
@@robertkersten3971 I agree with you analysis in the second half of your comment. I actually read the original church narrative in Acts as a story of the first true denomination. It was tied together by money and authority. That is what a denomination is today. If churches are separated in their budgets and who is acknowledged as authoritative, then the biblical resemblance kinda goes out the window.
I would think Jeffrey that after the latest bad experiences with UMC, they might be hesitant to jump back into a similar situation?
I personally would be very cautious about letting any centralized organization make decisions for my local church. But again, as I’ve said I grew up in an independent Bible Church.
I pray the GMC builds a solid organization to support the Methodist denomination going forward.
Yeah the Methodist identity is decidedly less individualistic than that of the Baptists. Even so, it would only make sense to me for folks to be this reticent if disaffiliation from the GMC was difficult. But it isn't. I think Christians should always elect to be in fellowship with others until it becomes untenable. At which time we should still find other fellowships that don't require such compromise. But when we become independent in that disconnected sense, I think satan wins. Christ calls us to unity under true eternal doctrine. I guess it's working on me that so few really have much passion for that in Protestantism...
It’s disappointing to me that the three largest Methodist Churches in Oklahoma have decided to remain independent. I am surprised because apparently they want to go it alone, and true Weslyan
Methodism involves shared ministries through connection.I. am grateful that my church has affiliated with the Global Methodist Church.
Really solid message... and yes, "hollow" is a good word for the reasons that are sometimes given for staying independent.
As a member of The Woodlands Methodist Church, perhaps the largest GMC church at 14k members, we want to be a part of the new denomination and want to serve as a resource church for our brothers in smaller congregations. We sincerely hope that many of these large independent congregations will eventually join us the GMC.
Although there are no GMC churches in my local area (within a one hour drive), a more distant former UMC church about 90 miles from me, opted not to join the GMC, to remove Methodist and any other denominational ties from the title of their church, to go back to scriptural authority and expository preaching, to lengthen their service, add time immediately after the service for fellowship followed by Sunday school for adults and children. They continue to experience significant growth across all age groups, and especially young families. Their financial health is superb.
I think all those decisions were great except for not joining the GMC.
Why would they abandon Wesleyan arminian emphasis as well?
I believe that Wesleyan arminian emphasis is a faithful expression of Christianity that both holds to holiness teachings found in Scripture and the graciousness towards other believers..
We went to the global Methodist Church after my literally begging a decade for another wesleyan arminian denomination to do more church plants in our area and because this particular denominational church was in decline so we were forced out and went global Methodist.
@@rauldelarosa2768 They didn’t alter their soteriology, but felt very reluctant to join the GMC. At the time, there were simply too many unknowns regarding the GMC. The resurgence within their own church is indicative that they made many good decisions. They can truly focus their efforts on the saints within and the community that surrounds.
@@plainspokenpod Good Morning Pastor Jeffrey, What advantages to you see in joining the GMC? Do those advantages outweigh potential disadvantages?
@@sheldon3996 so essentially they're still Wesleyan arminian is what you're saying.
Ok... got it.
I do hope you realize that the global Methodist Church is a safe place for Wesleyans to fellowship at ..
I'm not fully in agreement with them as I am credo Baptist and lean towards cessationist views but I'm happy going there .
We're transplanted from the Wesleyan church which has sadly been in decline at least in my home state.
Some large churches figure they know how to do it and the little guys don't. There is nothing in it for them to connect with the little guys. Ego plays into this.
Yeah this was meant as a bit of a corrective on that. Just because they're big doesn't mean they know what they are doing. A lot of the time, I think it is market forces. Maybe sometimes it really is that they know more or are more faithful. At this point, I don't see much serious analysis being done on that question. A lot of folks are content just to rejoice in something big and loud. Little churches like mine are a downer for those who equate the presence and power of the Holy Spirit with big, loud things.
Some of the medium sized and small size churches are going non-denominational as well. I became ordained in the FMC, I have friends in the GMC, and I have many that are in a network. I am rethinking my choice... not because I don't love the FMC... I do. But, I am convinced that my wife and I will end up non-denominational. There is still far too much fighting even among conservatives. I pray God blesses his people with awakening and organic connection.
Jason, if your reasoning for going nondenom/independent is because there is fighting in the denominations, I instantly want to ask why you think independent churches fight any less. I am familiar with lots of local churches, some with denominational affiliation and some without. I don't notice a difference in the amount or tenor of fighting between them. I would gently urge you to consider the possibility that being a Christian has always involved a spiritual battle inside and outside of the church, and it is our divine task to figure out how to do this in a holy and pure way. If Christ calls us into true unity with all believers, it seems to me that holy warfare for the unity of the church is the task of our day.
I'm trying to learn from this, and many other videos on this historical event. The more I watch, the more I just want tostay home on Sunday.
That is the opposite of my intent as I do this stuff. What I want is for laity and clergy alike to reclaim the holy and heavy task of seeking righteousness through authentic local churches. We have been complacent for far too long, trusting when we should have been vigilant. I want my content to spur you to work hard and passionately to build up your church to be the best it can be. And if you belong to a phony church, then find or plant a true one. Once Satan has us sleeping in on Sunday mornings, he wins. Do not forsake the gathering of the saints.
Some (many ) small churches stayed with UMC just because of cost of leaving. I and my wife left our UMC church be cause they voted to stay. How do I terminate my membership with the UMC with out joining a new church wich I will do some day?
2:25 - I can just see the conversations among the Apostles and the other early Church fathers: "We're going to have one theology for larger areas and another for smaller areas." I don't remember reading about those discussions. Maybe that mentality is part of the problem.
I used to attend one of the megachurches that formed The Foundry Network. One of the primary reasons behind our church leaving the UMC was so they could choose their own clergy leadership, and another was to associate with "like-minded and like-SIZED" churches. Sounded like a power move to me more than anything.
Not surprised. It has been quite some time that large and even medium sized churches have really needed the help of the denomination in their ministry. The denomination is more in need of large and medium sized churches than are any of these churches in need of the denomination.
Interesting; I've been hoping more of these churches would connect with the Free Methodist Church and am thankful for the ones that have.
Free Methodist Church still has a trust clause. That is a no go for most of us who have been burned by that...
free meth and global arnt the same church
In the late 80s and early 90s the UMC (in Western Missouri) had lay witness weekends. The leader was required to be a member of the UMC but the team could be made up of other Christians. From Friday evening to Sunday after church we were in charge of the entire program. You might say we infiltrated the local church and propagandized them with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So many UMC members would confide in our team members that they had NEVER before heard a Salvation message. Even a UMC minister confessed that he had never heard Jesus taught in such a moving and loving way. After around 6 years the UMC quit allowing us in but for one weekend we know that the word of God was presented to them in a clear way.
Really? In our conference the largest UMC churches led the charge to the GMC. Interesting. Our's is one of them.
Yes, there are exceptions, for sure. I'm very glad for that. Even so, many are noticing a pattern. That's what this particular segment was about...
Same.
Here is the unspoken truth….it is cheaper to go independent than to join the GMC, or any other world connectional ministry.
Probably, yeah. The continued operation of denominations depends very much on their adding more to the local churches under their umbrella than what they take away. It remains to be seen if the GMC can provide such a deal. Those denominations that take more than they add will rightly decline and die. If the GMC is to be such a healthy and vital fellowship, it'll only be because of those faithful who join up sooner. The Johnny-come-latelys will enjoy the fruits of the labor happening right now...
It will be interesting to see when the generation of pastors preaching at these independent churches start dying out and retiring what happens at those churches. I predict they move away from Wesleyian doctrine and toward evangelical doctrine. The politicization of this split almost lends itself to this transformation.
@@michaelnanney9160 You may be right. I'm familiar with a lot of evangelical independent megachurches that are somewhat Arminian/Wesleyan in their theological disposition. I'm not as sure as you that this ensures theological drift. I just think it guarantees that these churches will be more married to the spirit of the age, the phenomenon of marketing and always keeping things new, than to an eternal purpose with a heavenly fellowship. So even before some of these young pastors get old and need to move on, their churches will just be tired of hopping from one fad to the next, and they will no longer be tied to a network of churches to hold them accountable and inject new life and vitality.
As I said before, I could be wrong. But this is what I see with a vast majority of megachurches: They are big and exciting for a decade or two, sometimes three, and then they sink.
We are a small church and are reconsidering leaving the GMC. Many in conference leadership in our GMC provisional conference are poor leaders.
I have heard a couple other people with similar concerns. I guess I'm not worried about it at this point. There isn't much they can do to harm our ministry. Could you say more about what, in particular, is so unfortunate about the situation that it would require having a conversation about leaving the GMC?
@@plainspokenpod The great failure of the WCA to develop leaders for the GMC is surfacing as we speak. PEs have titles but have no idea how to build connection. I don’t fit in the Asbury clique. Once I find health insurance we will leave.
I'm afraid the particulars you are referencing aren't known to me. Building connection is a challenge in the modern world that very few are able to really manage. Especially when a PE is already struggling to maintain faithful connections in his own fellowship, it is quite challenging to facilitate such a thing amongst clergy who have been harried and damaged by the UMC. A lot of this is honestly the responsibility of elders and laity within the GMC to make happen. We got in all the trouble we did because we entrusted to leadership what was really the responsibility of the corporate whole. When assessing the quality of leadership in any organization, it is important to have another model to contrast things to. I'm not really aware of another denominational body that has outstanding leadership. I think the only answer is to join a body and intentionally work over time to improve its culture and leadership. We won't be able to do that if folks are upset at the nascent culture and leave. I'm not sure it was realistic of you or your church leadership to expect for everything to be high quality at the outset. Building things is hard. It is important to be charitable. I would urge you to reconsider your disposition.
There are " growing pains". It's up to Elders/Decipleship in your congregation. A stated policy of GMC is to give autonomy of congregation, back to them, as much as possible. Not being a TITHING burden to church,
Prayers
Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that you thought the mega churches would go with the GMC. They feel like such outliers to me that I am kind of glad they're not really part of the denomination.
I haven't ever been accused of being really smart. I like a lot of these pastors. I'm just disappointed in them, I guess. If these churches really are just governed by market forces at the expense of connectional faithfulness, I'm just sad about that.
@@plainspokenpod I wouldn't accuse you of not being smart. I really appreciate the way you break down the issues around Methodism for us.
@@GrandTeuton Thanks. I guess it could have looked like I was fishing for a compliment. I wasn't, but thank you for offering one. I enjoy doing what I do, so I hope I am helpful.
It’s a shame that Ginghamsburg went off the rails.
Don't worry about the 1,000 member church . Did you ever see a 10,000 army of ants carry off a huge bug.
I suggest that ALL methodists return to their Bibles!
If you want to be saved, and I guess that is the aim of most "church goers", you must be certain that you are aligned with scripture, NOT denominational dogma!
Being a methodist won't save you!
Being right with God, will!
They were right. It was a "get out of jail free" card. Independent Methodist is an oxymoron. There is also no accountability without connection.
When I interviewed Rev. Matt Judkins, who left the UMC and planted a new church, he was optimistic about his independent church being able to join networks that exercise accountability without the risks and downfalls of denominations. I'm just not sure how that works. But it isn't quite right to say that independent churches don't practice accountability. I think it is a worthy question to ask if they practice it worse than denominations. Coming out of the UMC, the accountability standards weren't always as I would have them. But I agree with your larger point: an "independent" Methodist is an oxymoron. For sure.
@@plainspokenpod Ask Baptists how well their loose associations work on accountability.
@@jsharp3165 Yeah I wonder what some would respond. I get the sense that the SBC is largely not happy with how things are going. Are there many who would still toot the horn of loose association proudly, or do you think they are starting to see their error?
@@plainspokenpod Ask us after the Convention of 2024 this June.
You'll find out that, in my opinion, churches are getting more hung up in their denomination than they are the Word of God. Didn't want to be U-MC, but G-MC was ok. This is what I mean. Read and teach the Bible. Stop changing the Word. Teach John 6. Communion is not a symbol of Jesus' sacrifice. Just my opinion.
Can you blame them? After the doctrinal treason and betrayal that's already been suffered by so many local churches?
I sort of can. Rather than stepping up to protect future institutions, many are stepping out. It seems many would rather focus on themselves exclusively rather than becoming more active in forming a more robust connection. That is their prerogative, but it is still a bit sad...
GMC You cant allow woman pastors 2nd Timothy says so Its not my law its not your law ITS GOD'S LAW If you do history will repeat itself just like the UMC did. You cant pick and choose what you want to. If you believe in say Luke or John or Genesis or all the Holy Bible you must believe in Timothy TOO and untill you realize this you stuck in the mud ITS GOD'S LAW NOT MAN'S DESIRES
It's all a grift.
Too cynical for me. Yes, there are grifters. I'm not prone to throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. You might reconsider your disposition.