Why the UMC & Other Liberal Churches are Doomed
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- David W. Scott wrote a helpful reflection on how to inform group identity and structure his denomination after the departure of folks like me. I strongly question the feasibility of such an effort, given the antinomian nature of those in charge. Lonnie Brooks' piece projecting a future of infighting is referenced. Also, I look at Reconciling Ministries Network and its patron, the Arcus Foundation, as documented by Meg Basham in her new book, 'Shepherds for Hire.'
Scott's article, "United Methodist Disciplines: Boundaries vs. Ideals" - www.umglobal.or...
Brooks' article, "Centrist-progressive coalition could soon unravel" - www.umnews.org...
RMN Puff Piece, "A Steady Stream of New Churches" - um-insight.net...
First, thank you for posting this. I find it a stimulating thing to watch. Liberals in the church are just like liberals in the political field. As you said they have nothing to pull them together. They lack merit in their argument. They need a crusade to rally the troops and keep the house in order. The communists were this way. Once they got rid of one enemy they promised nirvana. When things did not turn around after the eradication of this enemy or that enemy they named another enemy. A great example is Mao's Cultural Revolution. Once things go south he named his friends as the enemy to eradicate. The liberals of the church will be the same way. They will name some new targets to attack. That will keep the money flowing in and pull people together for the next crusade to nirvana. The liberals in the church are the same way.
They didn’t have the money to get out. Ours did..
I found your comments interesting and generally accurate to my own experience. I pastored a UMC church in Cal-Nev A/C that left the denomination in 1998 and continues as a local church to the present. You are well aware that Cal-Nevada A/C is likely the most liberal conference and the home conference of the first lesbian bishop.
I can predict what will happen to the remaining UMC. When we left, we averaged 200 in worship. Today, we average 350. Moreover, the nursery is blessedly full. Your comments made me curious about the Cal-Nev churches that we left behind. So I perused the 2023 Conference Journal and was absolutely shocked to see that the largest churches in our former District of 72 churches are now averaging, 140, 139, and 135 in weekly worship attendance. All three of those churches are "evangelical" and used to number 400 to 500 in average worship. I was also shocked that the three largest progressive churches of 1998 are now all averaging less than 100 with the exception to one at 119.
I point this out not to gloat as it makes me sad that John Wesley's church is now empty. Where once hearts were set afire, the progressive church is reaching nobody. If you want to know what will happen to the remaining UMC church, look no further than the Cal-Nevada A/C. I believe that people go to church to find biblical answers to the deepest questions of their lives. They don't go to "the Church of the Angry Progressive".
This exact thing happened in the United Church of Christ... UMC is next
UMC is already spiritually dead
It is exactly what happened to the UCC. The one my wife grew up in had hundreds of members and was vibrant. Last year the remaining few dozen people shut the doors and sold the church.
I went through this with ELCA then went to a UMC church, only to go through it again. I cannot be part of a "liberal" denomination because my Rubicon is Biblical authority. If the denomination does not acknowledge that Biblical authority overrides whatever some group of people decides, i cannot affiliate with that denomination.
That said, I have long believed that "liberal" churches are doomed for a very practical reason (aside from what the Lord might have to say about it). If the church reflects the world, what value does it have? If I go to church and the only thing I get out of it is a reflection of what goes on outside of the church, why bother with it? Why not just stay home on Sunday? Why not save the money I put in the offering plate for myself? If the church isn't telling me about salvation, about right and wrong, about feeding the poor, clothing the naked and binding up the wounds of the afflicted, what is its reason for existing? What does it add to my life? What does it do to make me a better person?
@@benlandon9051 right!
@benlandon9051 " I cannot be part of a "liberal" denomination because my Rubicon is Biblical authority."
Then why were you *_ever_* a part of a liberal church? ELCA has ordained women for 50 years, the UMC for more than that.
Yet Scripture is crystal clear on this topic. Women are not to teach, they are to be silent in the church. They are not even permitted to ask questions. It could not be more black and white.
And yet you went to two "churches" that defy God's word on this topic, and then you are surprised when that cancer spreads.
I will never leave the UMC by choice but could see getting forced out. More conservative people were told that we could have our beliefs as long as we did not infringe on others with different beliefs around human sexuality and a whole host of other topics. This doesn’t appear to be true. The UMC appears to be collapsing the big tent to demand not just the acceptance but the approval of a more libertine lifestyle. I will stay to fight the good fight but honestly, it doesn’t look good.
God bless you in your fight. We fight for the ones we love.
Best of luck. I was UMC all my life, but after the conference have felt like I have been kicked out of this denomination simply for holding to traditional beliefs and the Bible. I cannot in good conscience contribute to an organization that is going to spread the money around to churches with these new values. Hoping to find a new church soon.
14Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what [d]fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what [e]communion has light with darkness? 15And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[f] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18“I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
@@UnashamedofJesusA perfect scripture to describe what is happening and why we are not leaving Jesus Christ but a beautiful building. 🥲
Richard John Neuhaus: "When orthodoxy becomes optional, orthodoxy will soon be proscribed." (Maybe not the exact quote, but it's close). I.e., when you can't enforce boundaries, it won't be long before it becomes impossible to set boundaries. OR, it won't be long before UMC is indistinguishable from U-U's.
When boundaries are considered "unkind" and "unloving", you can't have boundaries. If you try to create some, you are instantly attacked.
It is unloving not to set boundaries. Parents set boundaries for their children. God sets boundaries for His children. These are set out of love and for protection.
One caveat: This here is postmodernism, not progressivism. True progressivism is (or was) defined by what it's for. The Progressive Party under Teddy Roosevelt had a very specific list of goals. Progressivism in the early 20th century was for the use of science and reason to objectively improve the lives of the average person and facilitate an increase in personal virtue (the progressive temperance and pro-life movements of the early 20th century are good examples).
Postmodernism differs by, as you said, defining itself by the institutions it intends to subvert, not what it intends to build. Postmodernism is inherently nihilistic. That conservatives and 'liberals' have both agreed to use the terms 'progressive' and 'postmodern' interchangeably just means both sides are in error.
Yeah the term 'Progressive' has definitely shifted in meaning over time. Postmodernity and NeoMarxism are both collapsed in this term. I think it is good to know about early 20th century progressivism, but I think we need to let today's terminology reflect the conversations as they are currently had. Terms morph. Your overall point is well taken. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.
@@plainspokenpod And thank you very much for taking the time to respond and state your well-considered positions and perspectives on that issue! For me it hits home because I am one of those 'classical progressives.' We are rare! But I hope that channels like this one that clearly value civil discourse can help bridge the gap. After all, I think real progress can't happen without valuing the traditions and foundations upon which the future is built.
This was very enlightening and I subscribed to your channel today.
So, Reconciling Ministries is a major activist group inbedded now in the UMC? Very disheartening and scary. Great report...!
Out of curiosity, I searched "Megan Basham." I found her on Ben Shapiro. She is obviously intelligent, well-spoken, and knowledgeable about her topic regarding her book. She would be an excellent guest on your podcast. Let's hope she will agree. I didn't care for the other podcaster because he kept hawking a golden bomb.
Megan Basham is an excellent reporter for the Daily Wire! I subscribe to that website. Ben Shapiro interviewed her about the book. I'm glad you are reading it, Jeffrey!
Thank you for bringing up the Liberation Methodist Connexion for the show the likely future of the UMC. On their (still up!) website, there is a surprisingly honest and candid write up of why they eventually failed. The 'golden nugget' from the the article is this: "Common ground was easier to find when we were focused on critiquing old institutions." This is proof to your point that modern (woke) progressivism has no unifying positive aspiration. It lives only to destroy and replace.
Hey Jeff- the UMC now seems to resemble a lot more like the Episcopal Church, and like all liberal denominations, they are in full decline. The UMC and ESC also engaged in full communion thus year. Do you ever see a scenario (maybe in the 2030s) where the UMC and ESC decide to combine completely due to the need to consolidate resources and personnel?
When people sincerely seek God, they don't look for an accepting community. That's why the UMC is doomed. A church that emphasizes acceptance over devotion is like a Boy Scout troop that doesn't camp.
Saw Megan Basham on a different podcast, thought she was excellent and was hoping you would reach out to her. Hopeful she will talk with you. Thanks for your work here.
I hope so too!
When your organization doesn't have standards or stand for anything, it's hard to rally existing members and draw in new ones. The UMC decline is unprecedented due to how big and fast it has happened. It won't survive for long due to the financial situation.
Everything you're pointing out was prophesied by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, what's happened to the church at large in particular is the "great falling away" he told us about in verse 3 - the last bastion of truth being overwhelmed by the forces and followers of darkness...
And falling away from the faith they once said saved them.
She’s really busy right now. She usually goes on podcasts with large audiences. I hope she goes on with you some day. I think she’s right to be careful now.
I read a book on personal protection a few years ago. I remember a statement from that book that has stuck with me for several years. There are wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. The sheepdogs protect the flock. In the case of the church, this is what churches need, a few sheepdogs. That is people who will keep watch over the church. To remain vigilant to the wolves that may try to enter the church and attack doctrinal beliefs of that denomination.
No! This is progressivism....informed by Liberal and Postmodern impulses. This is a great site. Thanks for your insight. I am in a small conservative holiness denomination facing these issues almost 50 years after the UMC. I hope we make it. We can learn from you folks.
Most of the responses I’ve seen from clergy on the split blames the people leaving and using manipulation and total gaslighting as if they are the ones who are wrong, not the ones ignoring and flagrantly disobeying the word.
"Why the UMC & Other Liberal Churches are Doomed"
It's really very simple. They do not submit to the teaching of Scripture.
It's not any more complicated than that.
Isn’t having women preachers liberal?
@dpatterson5293 "Isn’t having women preachers liberal? "
I think 'disobedient' is a better word than, "liberal". They started down this path from their inception, and now they are surprised at where the road took them.
The capricious way the Book of Discipline is currently enforced has likely gone a long way to undermine the UMC as a denomination. Interesting that the first article fails to mention that completely.
@ElwoodPDowd1970 "The capricious way the Book of Discipline is currently enforced has likely gone a long way to undermine the UMC ..."
The dependence on a man-made book, while living in DEFIANCE to the plain word of God, is the source of the problem.
Love it…I’ve got my folks listening to your programs….good job❤️👏🏻🙏👊🏿🔥☝🏿
Great video. My only point is toward the end your mentioned defending “our heritage” when we need defend the scripture.
I disagree that Progressivism is defined by its common enemies. Progressivism rests upon three major pillars.
1. There is no knowable divine relevation so there is no moral authority above man.
2. Man is naturally good and therefore his authentic desires are good.
3. Moral authority (and therefore the right to rule) rests with the self-identified "Enlightened Ones".
The problem occurs in 3. The Enlightened do not agree amongst themselves. But they have a coherent ideology rooted in the Worship of Self.
Frankly I'm surprised the Methidist church is even stil in existence. It could have easily gone extinct decades ago.
It was interesting. You said that they were to make disciples for the transformation of the world. It’s the disciples that are supposed to be transformed. The world is not going to be transformed. It’s going to be made new. So all this world changers and impacting the world and changing the world I think misses the biblical point of discipleship.
This was an interesting video. The RNM changed their required mission statement from saying “welcoming” to “ welcome and affirm” lgbt individuals in 2017. Caucus groups obviously need money to survive. Their 990s are available in the fall for the previous year. Losing half our conference doesn’t feel like “reconciling” occurred.
I find some of your language to be over the top but the substance of the critique is real.
Discipline has always been an interesting word for such a text, but I don't agree that what it says is the problem. As you correctly state, it goes to great lengths to describe process and falls woefully soft of outcome expectations (i.e. aspirational statements).
This problem, however, has a root cause that will continue to plague not just the UMC, but any denomination, and that's it's view of Scripture. The UMC launched in 1968 with no agreement on this issue and managed to survive only to have it come back and bite them in the backside. Without clear expression regarding Scripture, no (alleged) church will remain a part of the Church.
Ken Collins was my professor at Asbury. 😂
By all accounts a fantastic and orthodox professor. I regret that I got his name confused with Francis Collins.
I’m a lesbian and a UMC member. I love God and my community and not until I found a UMC church and covid was I allowed to worship again cause too many churches refused to let me worship. I’d like for you to tell me what you feel like I should do..just not attend a church so you can feel better?? I don’t think this is about whether you agree or not agree it’s about allowing all people to come just as they are and meet Jesus exactly where they are. I’d much rather not be a road block to someone finding Jesus.
Find a real bible believing church that is accepting, not affirming. Turn(repent) and trust(in Christ). You got this.
Thank you for being earnest. I think you're asking an earnest question. I think part of a helpful answer is to say that I don't think the Sunday morning worship service is appropriately seen as a time and place for all people to come and encounter God. I think it is more rightly seen as a covenant community, and some of its prospective members, coming together to renew their covenant with God and one another. It sounds to me like perhaps you are interested in hearing about that covenant, and that you haven't yet committed to biblical obedience and self denial in your personal life.
With the particular issue you name, I think you need to listen to other women who have chosen to stop being sexually active with, or even allowing space in themselves for attraction towards, other women. The most compelling figure I'm aware of is a Christian sister named Rosaria Butterfield. Her story is amazing. She has published many good books on the topic. You might just look up some interviews with her on CZcams and decide where you want to start.
To be clear, my concern about unrepentant sinners in worship, whether or not their sins are sexual in nature, is not a concern about how holy others feel. My concern is with the purity of the body, and the importance of uniform repentance of sin in the body. That isn't to say that people cannot or shouldn't hear about Jesus and be given opportunities to repent. I'm just saying everyone, including you, needs to be learning and contemplating these things outside of a worship service so that the worshiping body can be only those with full intentions to die to self and live for Christ.
I'm not God, and this is just the opinion of one man. You're free to disregard it. Just trying to make sure I have explained myself sufficiently. God bless you.
As a man with equivalent sexual preferences, I know how you feel. In my church I am welcomed for what I am. Indeed, no one really cares. Because of this, I feel I have the strength of the entire community praying for me to not yield to temptation. I live a chaste life, because I know that if I wish to come to God I must come on his terms, not mine, and not the World's. The reward for putting God in the center of my life, and not my carnal pleasure, has been immeasurable.
red meat - great topic