What Caused So Many Cultures To Disappear In 1400 AD?
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- čas přidán 30. 05. 2024
- In which I discuss the catastrophe that happened in the American Southwest around 1400 AD and ponder its meaning.
My e-book discuses this topic in greater detail ancientpottery.how/product/bo...
0:00 Hearty People Lived Here
2:44 Coincidences of Catastrophes
6:42 What Really Happened In 1400?
10:34 The Uninhabited Region
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There was Volcanic activity near Flagstaff that deposited ash and cinder that was feet deep over vast areas of land. This would have contaminated not only the landscape and water sources in that area but also water sources downstream and south of Flagstaff. Your map showing the areas depopulated (6:37) looks suspiciously like a volcanic plume. I am building a home near Flagstaff and every time I dig for drain pipe or foundation work I run into a layer of cement-like material around 3 ft. down that is 6"-12" thick. Definitely volcanic in origin.
I agree and was about to post a comment supporting this idea it was worldwide and can be seen in the ice record in Antarctica. The levels of "dust" and silica in the ice supports this theory.
The global volcanic dust plume was in 1538, over a century later. Maybe there was a smaller local volcano?
Yes there was local volcanic activity in the area. I noticed it driving on i40 and also when flying over. I dont know anything more than this, i just was suprised to see it. @TravelwithMark
The Cinders is a ohv area and adjacent to it is the sunset crater national Park all of it of volcanic
Might the great meteor impact have occurred much later than previously thought and caused a localized climate change?
This may be seemingly unrelated, but what I write can have had a impact on the Northern hemissphere. I am a historian and vulcanologist. In 1308 till 1362 there was a long series of volcanic eruptions on Iceland that impacted Europe. In 1340 - 1345 a deadly pandemic of the black plague took away inhabitants in many villages in Europe. In 1362 the biggest eruption in the Northern hemisphere erupted. Oreifajokull caused an enormous tidalwave that flooded the low countries, areas of Great Brittain (erasing 79 villages of Dorset) and ended in a vulcanic winter that brought winterconditions in spring and autumn and brought wet conditions in summer. This lasted at least ten years. The population in Europe was reduced by a third as a consequence. On Greenland, somebody in this comment section reports that the population of Greenland disappeared. I believe that when people migrate, they take their culture with them. This seems not to have happened in the report in this video. Just like in Europe, many areas in the Americas were depopulated. In the past we have seen similar repeats of collapse. Around 10.000 BC climate change caused hunter gatherers to start adopting agriculture. 1500 BC we see the Bronze Age Collapse. The story about the biblical Jacob takes place in this time. Kanaan was mostly depopulated and the people of Israel migrated here. Then 1300 - 1400 CE brought astoroids impacts, vulcanic eruptions, tidal waves, volcanic winter, pandemics, warfare and abandonement of settled areas. These mentioned times are the only times when worldwide population decreased by a third. The only other time I know this happened is with the eruption of Toba supervolcano 74.000 ago. The human race was almost extinct. A new type of human emerged then: Homo Sapiens Sapiens, cultural man. Us! The story of Adam and Eve in the bible is from that time. Nature rebounded after 6 days in the area that now is called Aden (pronounced Eden). Preceding the Bronze Age Collapse was the eruption of the Akrotiri volcano 1650. Most collapses commenced with volcanic eruptions or impacts of meteors. Then occurs climatic upheaval. Then famine happens. Then pandemics spread. Than happen migrations and reduction of population. Then cultural changes and cultural renewal happen. Wars often occur in the process.
I’m an archaeologist- drought leads to a struggle for resources, which leads to warfare, which leads to disease and destruction of culture and abandonment of regional homelands.
This has happened before and will happen again.
@@NelsonZAPTM sooner than we think! As the tundra continues to rapidly melt-methane gasses increase at a faster rate than scientist had predicted -the earth will become much much warmer, until the earths crest heats up-volcanoes erupt and gases and cinder block out the sun- and then, we plummet rapidly in to an ice age to cool the earth from its fever. Most life dies but those who can eat the yuck will hang on and create again as the earth melts down for thousands of years. Cycles over and over…. Every 250k years… and thaw for 80k, I believe we are over 50k years over due! -living green or carbon conscience efforts will do nothing! Enjoy life and know that your descendants will go through an utter hell as our ancestors had…
@@NelsonZAPTMwhen did it happen before? This sort of depopulation?
@@NelsonZAPTM so you can't quote an instance?
@@NelsonZAPTM BTW, your totally "over the top" reaction points to some deep insecurities. When you suggest I get therapy for asking you for an example, you seem to be covering up a lack of understanding or knowledge of the subject matter.
I love that 1.) you admit you don’t know 2.)you invite comments from people to narrow in on the truth 3.) the people with the comments are offering valueable insights. Good work setting a great example for the finding of truth and a great example of how the world should run.
Populations in Europe also declined 8% between 1250-1400AD. Ice core records suggest very large volcanic activity that may have continued for a long time causing widespread cold climatic conditions (LIA), crop failures, and disease. For a culture that was highly dependent on corn that could no longer be reliably grown the effect would have been devastating. This may have caused the breakdown of social order, tribal warfare, and abandonment of a way of life.
1250- when Atlantic pack ice began to grow, a cold period that was possibly triggered or enhanced by the massive eruption of the Samalas volcano in 1257[19] and the associated volcanic winter.
1275 to 1300- when the radiocarbon dating of plants shows that they were killed by glaciation
1300- when warm summers stopped being dependable in Northern Europe
1315- when rains and the Great Famine of 1315-1317 occurred
This is the best explanation I have yet read for the global depopulation and complete abandonment of the great southwest civilizations.
@@patrickwhittington If you're thinking of the Barrington meteor crater in west Arizona, it hit approx. 50,000 yrs. ago.
Um... 50% of Europe's population declined in that period....................................
That was the time period when the Black Death raged through Europe.
@MrTryAnotherOne that was between 1347 to 1351 in Europe. It could have also reached north American some how?
The Spörer Minimum was from 1431-1440 CE. Extremely cold winters alternating with soggy wet summers were reported in Central Europe. This was to blame for the alternating droughts and floods that resulted. Imagine the challenges to worldwide food production and rescue efforts 😮
During my time in the Marine Corps, I befriended a Sergeant of Diné descent who shared an intriguing version of the Skin-Walker legend, passed down from his elders. According to his account, the Skin-Walkers were remnants of a previous population, cursed for betraying their own families and tribes. My sergeant, a well-read and educated individual, interpreted this to suggest that the Skin-Walkers were survivors of a brutal conflict marked by acts akin to war crimes. He speculated that although the Skin-Walkers continued their old ways upon the arrival of the Diné, they were too few to overpower them. Nevertheless, the unconventional warfare waged by the Skin-Walkers left a profound impact on the Diné, giving rise to the enduring legend. This interpretation, while speculative, does not conflict with established facts.
I have heard that the Algonquin tribes of the north and east American continent had problems with skin-walkers prior to the arrival of Europeans. It was detrimental to the tribes and made the takeover of lands by the Europeans much easier when they showed up.
@@JBlask There is speculation that the Skin Walkers are some sort of offshoot from the Moche Culture of South America. That same Sergeant of Diné descent of whom I wrote about before believed that to be the case. Supposedly, the Moche culture originated the human sacrifices that the entire new world is known for and they spread this practice far and wide. The Kachinas , along with the Dine, are the ones who put a stop to the Moche in north America according to my Sergeant friend.
About1311 the day the sun didnt rise from volcabic actuon,freaked pppl out,
watch. the facts by how to hunt.. idians do not talk about skinwalker.. sabe / bigfoot, was made before man. viper tv sumerian tablets..
Not sure if you've been keeping up on the Skinwalker Ranch program on the History Channel and they just found the body of a Dire Wolf. Extinct for 10,000 years. They say a candidate for the "Skinwalker" legend. It's been fascinating.
I'm an Architect by profession and i have travelled extensively in that region and have studied the Architecture and i believe the Architecture tells the tale. Everything was defensively built. They built lookouts on the high places, and food storage was hidden. As the population grew and drought more severe, it became survival of the fittest. Until even the last ones standing saw the place as haunted and cursed.
Ok, stick to architecture, Cheech.
The invaders were the Ute, a hunter gatherer tribe who raided for food crops grown by the Pueblos. They were ruthless and didn't need a large army.
Moving into the cliffs was not defensive. The last place you want to defend from is high up on a cliff where there is only one or two ways in. You're too vulnerable to a seige and then you're only able to last as long as you have food and water...
Good conclusions. The flat land dwellings were abandoned. The struggle to survive was brutal. Evidence has been found of cannibalism.
@@Souundy Where they didn't have protective cliffs they built towers. Hovenweep. A siege only works if you have more food and water than your enemy. It true for both sides.
I read a very compelling book, "1421. The Year China Discovered America." It was subsequently supplemented by unusual things found in the Americas by other archeologists that support the theory. It's possible their interactions with coastal people, who then traded inland, brought disease. This interaction could cause the die-off of large numbers of people. Just a thought and worth the read regardless. Great episode. Love it.
A good book!
Foreigners from a far off country coming to a new one, bringing disease that wiped out the native population. Story as old as time. Europeans bringing measles to Polynesia is a case in point from a time not too far removed from present.
I read it as well. Agreed
There's plenty of evidence that the advanced interior tribes of North America were influenced by Mayan coastal traders. I'm sure they introduced diseases on occasion that none had a resistance to so wiped out the tribal elites, craftsmen and resident farmers. Those that resided further away stayed away after learning about everybody falling ill then passing away. The coastal traders were also known for being hired by Mayan and Mesoamerican Elites to be taken away to somewhere safe during times of conflict. I had a couple HS History teachers (69-73) that believed the Mayans took them up to North America to organize the tribes to establish trading centers along rivers and inland, like the Chaco Canyon region. They think the Mayan Elites and best craftsmen left with the traders once it became obvious that the southwest had entered a period of droughts.
Dang Chinese. I'm bettin' they was from Wuhaan.😂
Excellent book. I read it years ago.
The Fremont and Moqui cultures further north in Utah also dimished or disappeared around the same time frame. So this mystery was more widespread than just Arizona. Also this was the same time frame the Aztec culture was begining to grow and rise so dramaticly, according to them and archeologists they came from the north. I've had the same questions as you for many years, and hoping someone can make a positive connection about this issue.
I'm an amateur Aztecologist ;) and that is exactly what I have come to believe.
For more than 450 years, Norse settlers from Scandinavia lived-sometimes even thrived-in southern Greenland. Then, they vanished. Their mysterious disappearance in the 14th century has been linked to everything from plummeting temperatures and poor land management to plague and pirate raids. Now, researchers have discovered an additional factor that might have helped seal the settlers’ fate: drought. Reason would say some world wide event happened during this time too.
Makes me want to head for Glaser national park.
I'm not an archeologist, but I am studying to be one, and I do agree that the sudden vacating of the region was too large to simply be coincidence. Personally, I think it may have been a combination of factors. A natural disaster in one area leading to refugees seeking shelter - the sudden increase in population being an excellent vector for disease, leading to more depopulation and seeking shelter elsewhere. Natural resources start to get depleted, and conflict becoming more likely, until eventually everyone had left the region and their cultures absorbed into the surrounding regions. It's possible we may never know exactly what happened. But it is food for thought. Especially when compared to similar instances in other parts of the world. The Bronze Age collapse of the fertile crescent being one instance that we're starting to understand more, and which might have some similarity to what happened here in the US. Great Video, Andy! Thank you!
Positive waves.🤠
Since you're studying the field, take a look at known depopulations in the Great Plains and into the East Coast, and their timing, in the late pre-Columbian period. Andy said to look at the big picture, and rightly so, but was his view wide enough, if it happened on a continental scale? I would argue that the events were historically close enough to mean that wars weren't capable of producing a similar result on a massive scale, all around the same time. It makes no sense.
A virgin-field epidemic strikes me as more likely, given that the various cultures were part of a trade network that went through all the significant ones. Comparing this to the Black Death is a mistake, because that was a more technologically developed culture, and occurred in areas where small-scale subsistence farming can persist, but over here, a viral outbreak with a long incubation period would likely outrun the news of the plague.
It's mainly a matter of logistics and types of pandemics, especially since a large, sophisticated but tech-poor society will also have a tipping point, where there aren't enough survivors left to organize the necessary population to resume what had always worked before, let alone rebuild it from nearly nothing. I tend to study history through a military history lens, because to do that seriously you have to take every military factor into account, especially logistics, since that's what determines what is possible.
I'm purely self-taught, but I think I've said a few things worth considering.
@@bookman7409 right on. Whatever happened seems to be the subject of institutional shenanigans. Good luck, positive waves.
As an archeologist, it might be interesting to compare what was going on in Europe at the same time. People sick, starving, dying across entire northern hemisphere. 🤔
Or maybe the timing is figured a little off and it's from European diseases sweeping the continent
Cahokia, near the Mississippi River, was depopulated around that same time also.
It was depopulated because the Spanish visited on there way north with hundreds of pigs. By the time they returned South the population had been decimated by swine flu.
and then the Indians came to inhabit it
this is the ohio area that has the pyramid
@@dilbertfirestorm4851 yeah, it's where some of the Aryan sea peoples were from, maybe they used that mound building skill when they took over egypt
@@TheRealFreznoBob aryan? I think its said by the natives that the people who built it were giants, fair skin, green eyes and had red hair. this suggests that they were of scottish ancestry.
Thanks Andy, you obviously put a lot of work into this. Since Native Americans have such a strong oral history, I would be interested to hear what their stories are. Nice work.
Some of that has been recorded by anthropologists but also much of that remains unknown to outsiders. I think linguistics is a more telling and interesting study and there are a lot of interesting clues there.
“Anasazi” is a Navajo word to describe these natives the famous area being Chaco Canyon. The Navajo’s knew they were into slavery and avoided them even saying terrible things were going on in that area.
there's a Navajo channel here which said about what you did. Also he was careful to note that the Anasazi were a sect of Ancestral Pueblans who'd taken over, but were not the common Pueblan people
The Salado of the San Pedro river valley had definitely shifted to a defensive posture just prior to their disappearance - this is amply demonstrated in the strong fortification features found at their last few consolidated villages such as Leaverton Mesa, 111 Ranch and and High Mesa. "Migrants and Mounds - Classic Period Archeology of the Lower San Pedro" makes for an interesting read on this marked cultural shift just prior to their departure from the San Pedro.
Another channel in the four corners area has a hapless kid visiting Google Earth stone circles. Pretty amazing stuff with walls built into overhangs or on the top of rocky plateaus near water. Very defensible and inaccessible. They strike me as the last stand kinda places. No petroglyphs at these sites. Read somewhere that human coprolite found in the hearths of village ruins contained human remains. Besides the insult this perhaps suggests cannibal attackers. I’m Chiricahua Apache and these are/were my people.
@@richardarmida8151 Just curious, why do you consider him hapless?
What do the traditions from the Native tribes say about this catastrophe?
Diné and Ndee invasion.
Great video Andy , three reasons I don't believe they disappeared because of warfare. 1)No tribe had the amount of people it would of took to March the length & breath of Arizona through rough, hot,desolate terrain and wipe out all the other tribes that they encountered 2) Consider logistics all the food ,water, weapons and equipment you would of had to carry by foot since there were no horses till the Spanish reintroduce d them in the 1500s. 3)What did an invading army have to gain? Most of these tribes were dirt poor and had nothing of value to warrant such destruction.4) Tribes were not dictated to by a Chief,look at plains tribes they went on war parties if they wanted to for horses and glory they never wiped out whole tribes . Perhaps a paleoclimatolgist who studies droughts in past history could shed some light on past climate changes at that time.
M T Cassidy Professor Native American Studies. Keep up the Good work
Great information. My folks had property South of Stafford Arizona. It had remains of old culture. We found buckets of pottery sheds and axes on the place.
So solado pottery just stops completely in 1400? That seems very strange because up until that point, when Pueblo groups move into a new area, their pottery shows up in the record.
Yes, it just stops. There were a few Salado pots found at Hawikuh which was inhabited up until the Pueblo Revolt (1680) but it is not know if they were made there or were just heirlooms.
🤣 that ending. We here in Ohio have a similar situation where historical tribes such as the Shawnee talk about coming into this land and I wonder how there were open places. I know there is always work on connecting paleo and archaic to woodland and on down but I always wonder about the accuracy of those assessments. I also, having spent decades staring at the dirt as I cross any field, strongly believe that the populations of America were much, much greater than what we were taught in the 80s and 90s. The book "1491" really shored up my beliefs in that. I wonder if, like your SW U.S. situation, if there was something similar that happened here from time to time...probably. Thanks for exercise in history, Sir!
Yes actually another strange coincidence was that Mississippian culture crashed at about the same time that this was going on in the Southwest. I was worried that there might have been a rattlesnake back there in those rocks. They have little bitty rattlers that live in the mountains around here.
@@AncientPottery YES THEY DO...I love them...but they often sound more like an insect when rattling than a true Crotalid...Most common are the mottled and banded rock rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus ssp.) I will state that behaviorally they are very mild in disposition and seldom bite unless really provoked by stepping on or physically harassing them somehow. When I was working with this species in captivity, they had been some of my favorite of the Crotalids, but it is wise of you to be that aware...
@@AncientPotteryCompare time period with northern Europe, as well. A lot of dying world wide. Blamed on bubonic, but perhaps more to it if global🤔
@@bendy6626 1400 coincides with a trough at the beginning of the "Little Ice Age" the actual cooling trend started much earlier at the end of the Medieval Warm period around 1300. Europe and North America were the 2 hardest hit continents. A change in atmospheric conditions may have changed rain patterns so civilizations may have had problems feeding their people, and from there best way to get food would be to attack their neighbor and take what they had.
@@themaskedhobo Great points! Now, consider central + so. American cultures ...
WHAT A TRULY AWESOME VIDEO!!! Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I remember hearing Krakatoa exploded around 1500AD. It affected everyone worldwide.
Yes, true.
Also around 1300. And there's the mystery eruption (location uncertain) of 1458.
@@trinacogitating4532New Zealand? There was one massive eruption at some point in history of Taupo the crater is a lake...that may? Have caused the Dark ages? The volcanic Dust in upper atmosphere blocking Sunlight or reduced sunlight and lots of Ash..falling...so crop failures therefore a lack of food in store.
@@AncientPottery you are repeating mainstream crap. same as the bible bs.. watch . viper tv sumerian tablets.. might educate you.. farming, is thousands of yrs old. . the pyramids are over 100,000 yrs old. we were genetically engineered.. as workers, miners..
@@AncientPottery all, our real history is hiden, covered up, destroyed, by the church, gov,s smithsonian.. when the church ruled, you said 1 thing wrong, you died as a heratic.. darwin knew this, so he said there must be a missing link, we hav,nt found.. alien intervention.. hinduism, is very interesting.. history. vishnu, is depicted, exiting a lingum, rocket, carved in black granite,. how, who, carved all these temples, columns, ect.. praveen mohan, does vids on it. he says temples are 1000 yrs old, because he has to, or get banned, by the '' algorithm''.... i was banned for 2 wks, just for tru comments they didnt like..
Very informative Andy thanks. I've read some papers suggesting conflict was common in the area based on skeletal injuries
Wouldn't surprise me. Thanks
Whatever caused the conflicts must be tied with the reason why entire regions in that part of America were suddenly depopulated. Like Andy said the people had experience dealing with droughts and floods. I wonder what the surviving nations’ tales have to tell us about this time period. I think they might be the key to understanding what was going on in that period. Only thing I can think of is the Little Ice Age but I am not a scholar on Native American civilizations during that period so I don’t know how it would affect the people.
@mirandagoldstein8548 - Exactly! Love your comment!
It is frustrating when experts from the dominant culture formulate theories about the original cultures based on their own preconcieved "realities" without actually asking the descendants of those original cultures what stories have been passed down through the generations. If you want to study ancient indigenous cultures - ask their descendants, not descendants of the invading Europeans, who are products of completely different "realities" -
@@lapsedluddite3381 And if you want to know about the Ancestral Puebloans, ask Puebloans, not Navajos.
The consumption of human flesh has been scientifically established as was common in Aztec cultures in the south.
There's a channel called Navajo Traditional Teachings here on youtube, the presenter is a Navajo historian/elder named Wally Brown. He has several videos where he speaks about the traditional stories of the Navajo about the Anasazi, which he sharply distinguishes from the Ancestral Puebloans and other groups of the region. As he relates it, the Anasazi were an outsider group who arrived fairly suddenly and remained for only a relatively short period, being centered in Chaco Canyon. Supposedly they went out raiding, conquering, and enslaving the other peoples, and even conducted human sacrifices, but were ultimately punished with a great wind that toppled their cities and dried up their water sources. During and after their reign of terror, the ancestors of the Navajo and the other groups fled the area to hide in cliff dwellings. I can't fully speak to how closely these stories align with the archaeological record, but they certainly seem to fit the main theories for the depopulation, especially if a period of prolonged violence coincided with a major drought. I could imagine a group attempting to impose something like mesoamerican style social and religious customs on the area, i.e. large stone cities, conquest of neighboring groups, blood and sacrifice focused religious rites, etc. could've caused such a depopulation.
That ties in with tribes moving into the region from far away southern Mexico where such practices did occur.
His is a great channel. He provides very important context that's always left out by "archeologists" and historians.
Migrants from Mexico & Guatamala perhaps?
Also look to the East at tribal mound builders that did similar to the Mayans… they disappeared too but it was before the southwestern ones disappeared… I’ve often wondered if they broke up from the East and moved west and tried again before being destroyed there? Maybe they moved up from far south Central America, towards Easter North America, and then back towards the south western area before finally dying out (maybe the way the Navajo stated?)
Perfectly stated. That also the theory I had in mind.
I'm the Texas Panhandle, in the Canadian River valley. The panhandle culture disappeared around 1400.
Like he said, himself, “there are no coincidences” lol. Maybe for a few brief years it was colder than anyone imagines.
Did they move north and east? Etzanoa (the city of 20,000 people where modern day Ark City, Kansas is located) was started around 1450 AD, and lasted until about 1700 when the Spaniards finally broke them up. But where did that large culture and all the people to fill it come from?
An uncle of mine lived in Globe AZ. He taught history at the local community college and found some ruins in his half acre backyard.
He passed in the early 1990s. I miss you, uncle Don.
Cool video, thanks Andy. So the Basket weavers were the hunter gatherer cultures, the pottery/agriculture followed and built sustainable cities of casas grandes so to speak, and, they all ran away abandoned centuries of infrastructure at culturally significant locations. Hmmmm. It’s an amazing story. I’m Chiricahua Apache with an Opata greatgrand dad and this puts things together for me.
As an archaeologist working in the Southwest I have found evidence for warfare, five times it was sites where the people were killed and left unburied, and yes the buildings were burned down on top of them. One of these was just below Tonto National Monument. Two people lying face down on the floor of a room; site dates to the early to mid 1200s. One had the back of the skull fractured, probably by a club. The building was burned and the roof collapsed on them, but there was only burning on the bones where the skin is thin, so they never had time to decompose. The roof collapsed on the bodies, one was completely covered and intact, except one hand was intact, but 90 degrees from the wrist. The other body was only partially covered and dogs or coyotes had torn the upper part of the body to pieces, leaving a trail of body fragments, many with canine chew marks from the buried body to the door of the room. There was less than 2 foot of adobe left in the door jamb, even so we found multiple projectile points embedded approximately horizontally in the adobe, probably shot at the people inside. Definte evidence of warfare. I have excavated 4 other such sites in my career, with equally convincing evidence.
Actually, this is an easy one:
1400 AD is almost exactly the start of the Little Ice Age.
Cultures and civilizations all over the world failed or had crises because of this.
These guys vanished almost exactly when the Norse colony in Greenland did, and probably for the same reason.
That's also a likely cause for the Kmer empire's failure, and may have contributed to declines in Zimbabwe and the Mississippian culture.
Interesting
Wow
I don't think a decrease in temperature by 1.1°F would have caused a huge issue in the Desert Areas of Arizona, New Mexico and Mexico. Thought it might be related to the "Great Dying" of the 1600s. I think that's a stretch though as well.
@@jeremiahsummers8054 The area was not as desertified then as it is now. It, like northern Africa, grew progressively worse over the ages.
The change was more than temperature, it was weather patterns.
@@KAZVorpal Sites like Case Grande beg to differ, I live by the Gila, it would still be flowing if not for the San Carlos Dam. Arizona goes through wet and cold spells depending on multiple factors, sun spot activity etc, but they would have lived through all of that over a period of 1400 years. None of that explains them leaving.
Thanks uncle Andy .....very very interesting
When I was in collage I had the pleasure of talking to a archeologist that specializes in south western native culture. There is evidence to support a major depopulating event across the northern America's causes by some form of plague that might have been brought over to the northeastern shores by Nordic explores.
Oh that's interesting. Because it is often said that this happens too early to be from European contact but from that perspective not necessarily.
As you were talking about your theories, this same thought about the Nordic’s came to mind. More and more evidence is appearing about Nordics and Chinese. It’s been shown they have been traveling, trading, warring in the Americas. All of this is long before the Spanish set foot on North America.
But you didn't learn to spell?
They’re finding large population centres that were also depopulated at the same time in Maine and Pennsylvania. The forests there grow quickly enough that they were covered up, but LIDAR is revealing them. The only thing that can go across an entire continent is a plague. It may have even been the bubonic plague, given the timeline. Contact in what is now Newfoundland with the nordics was definitely happening at the time.
@patrickbass3542 just one little vowel huh .
Great lecture. The beginning summary of the “history” of the Southwest was very concise and informative. Thank you for sharing your ideas. Thanks for all the hard work required to make this video.
This has been a topic of fierce debate for years.. and it will continue until we get acknowledgment that the current hypothesis is not the only case to be made..the resistance to hearing any other theory is very weak on behalf of the powers that be.. which leads us to believe that there MUST be other explanations!!
Right now I'm thinking when the Anasazi ( Ancestral Puebloans) collapsed ( from cannibalism/etc. internal strife ) ... it sent people everywhere, that sent fear everywhere. - Fear ruled the day, hence the hill top Forts all over the southwest in the 1300's
Good point, and we already know because of what happened there that there were some bad people around then. Maybe some of them moved south and did the same thing here. For those of you who don't know the Anasazi system collapsed around 1300, just around the time that the Salado and Classic Hohokam systems were getting started.
@@AncientPottery I believe it started around 1250-on ... some parts maybe even earlier 😊
@@Allen-yv3ue true just trying to give a general idea for those who don't know
in the 'magazine' "Science News" they reported studies of cannibilism....
Another CZcams channel in the four corners area has a hapless kid visiting Google Earth stone circles. Pretty amazing structures and ruins with walls built into overhangs or on the top of rocky plateaus near water. Very defensible and inaccessible. They strike me as the last stand kinda places. No petroglyphs at these sites. Read somewhere that human coprolite found in the hearths of village ruins contained human remains. Besides the obvious insult this perhaps suggests a Mad Max world with cannibal attackers. I’m Chiricahua Apache and these are/were my people.
I watched a video, almost a year ago, in which they talked about, what was then considered novel, hantavirus. But, in the video, a Native American elder talked about a time when the same disease had ravaged people in Northeast New Mexico, and was probably pre-Columbian Era. That could have also contributed to a large decimation of a population. combine that with drought, possible volcanic activity, and you have a perfect breeding ground for mass exodus.
Absolutely fascinating topic with so may subtopics to explore. Great video. I learned a lot.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The same thing happened in Georgia, Alabama, western North Carolina and Tennessee around 1375 AD. The Black Plague hit Trondheim, Norway in 1349 AD then quickly spread to the rest of Norway, Iceland and Greenland. The Scandinavians abandoned Greenland in 1350 AD.
There are also reports of European contact before Columbus, around the time of the 14th century plagues in Asia and Europe. Could it be that there WAS a pre-Columbus contact that brought plague? The pre-Columbus contacts include Welsh and Basque legends, and we know that Columbus had a map, we just don't know where he got it from.
The myth of four horsemen might sum up the most common three causes: Pestilence, Famin and Sword. The fourth rider is Death, but maybe it should be named Collapsing Trade Networks?
“-They are mysteries. And I am both terrified and reassured that there are things in the universe beyond our explaining.” - G’Kar, on the phenomena associated with Sigma 957
Babylon 5 Forever!
Thank you for doing this video. This topic drives me crazy.
You're welcome.
The art made to depict these people is amazing
According to tree ring studies, at that time, there was a terrible drought in the area, of the same magnitude experienced over the last 30 years in Phoenix. But they did not have the means to supply themselves with water as we do today. So, basically, they had the choice of leaving... or dying. It may be that they assumed defensive postures in order to secure this vital resource.
Interesting that the Hopi talk of Ant People from underground that helped them. Look at the underground cities in Turkey and rumors of remains of "large people in carved caves in the Grand Canyon with huge weapons displayed" .. And I think Kokopelli and Pan were the same "guy".
Plague in Europe was much more devastating than you appear to believe. Whole villages and regions were depopulated. The natural reforestation of previously farmed land is believed by some to have been a factor in the creation of the little Ice age.
That you report that the identifying pottery stopped in 1400 suggests to me plague or genocide(the latter if your war theory is correct). By way of comparison, the Philistines when they moved from Greek Island region, started producing pottery in Palestine that matched the types and patterns from where they came from. The only difference (initially) was the clay they used. Drought creates a population that is stressed(immunologically) making a plague more likely to take hold.
Thanks for the info.
Even the Black Death is overrated. You'll read and hear people saying that 1/3 of all Europeans died and that's false; it is based on the records of a single French town which was particularly badly affected, elsewhere a credible figure is rather in the 10% ballpark and there were areas like Poland or the Western Pyrenees that were not affected at all. However there was a second wave some time later that affected mostly yount people who did not have developed immunity, so the cummulative impact was significant (but not as extreme as portrayed by some sensationalist authors anyhow). The main long term consequence was improving the status of peasants, who (often illegally) could then seek for better conditions, leaving the most exploitative lords without manpower.
I concur that warfare seems a more likely cause, although it could be perfectly associated to droughts, epidemics, etc. I just think it was not any local war but rather the intrusion of the Apaches (Na-Denè peoples) which caused the devastation. It reminds me of the main Indoeuropean conquest of Central and Northern Europe (Corded Ware) both of which caused large population replacement and the abandonment of many consolidated agricultural communities, and that was also associated to the first known episode of the bubonic plague.
If the invaders were in fact the Apaches (with a Na-Denè more recent origin in Asia than other American Natives, Inuit excepted) maybe, much like the later European colonists, they could have carried with them epidemics for which the locals had no immunity but the Apaches did, hard to say for sure.
@@LuisAldamiz Your That is one POV and I believe were villages in The British Isles that were completely decimated and never "resurrected". Likewise in Mainland Europe( it was not just one twon in France. POland did escape the ravages but that was because Casimir III the Great closed the borders. Also it is believed the Polish population were genetically resistant to the black death(Most Europeans today have the same genetic markers indicating plague resistance)
@@MrAustrokiwi - Check the data because I'm quite confident on what I said, based on the work of various medievalist historians.
@@LuisAldamiz You selective in which Historical view points you want to put forward. You have ignored the believed links to the little Ice age. You have completely ignored my example of the Philistines( and their continuation of their home land pottery styles). the fact that the pottery styles in this video just disappears from the record does not suggest people left to other regions but rather they were killed off some how. Plague( of some type) or genocide are the best explanations that i can think of.
Just ask Hopi and the Navajo--the stories of this period are intact, very intact. If you give tobacco and ask humbly they will share them, none of this is actually mysterious.
Interestingly enough, there were entire towns/cities/etc that were wiped out and lost to time at various periods in Eurasian history, such as the time period leading up to and somewhat after the plague of Justinian. In cases like that and the black death, what often occurs is a period of political and social decline, along with decades of war, and at least a solid couple of decades of unusual weather patterns that cause 10+ years of bad crops. This occurred with various collapses in China, as well as prior to the Bronze Age Collapse, Plague of Justinian, as well as the Black Death.
The region overlaps almost exactly with the modern and historical Apache or Southern Athabascan area. We know that the Na-Denè were broadly intrusive in North America (they have somewhat different genetics than other Natives, notably East Asian Y-DNA C2, shared with Altaics and North Chinese) and their first settlement must have been in the northwest of the continent (Alaska and nearby areas) but that at some point they migrated southwards and mostly established themselves in that region you mention. We also know that the Apaches (incl. Navajo and others) were very warlike, while the Puebloans and other groups that accepted refugees (per your narrative) were much less belligerant, more "civilized" if you wish.
So I do buy your warfare explanation but I'd say it was the violent intrusion of the Na-Denè (Apaches and such) which caused it. I'm not very acquainted with their history and culture but I understand that some of those groups were extremely cruel with their war captives, if so no wonder everybody run away to wherever they could find refuge. I disagree with the North vs South agricultural Amerinds conflict hypothesis you posit therefore: it makes no sense to me.
I think to a large degree you're correct. The Anasazi, for instance, who developed as farmers moved from the desert floor to become cliff dwellers in highly defensible locations. So what drove them there? Why did they vanish around 1400 also? I enjoy the mystical lore in that they disappeared into certain Kivas which could gain entrance into a third or parallel dimension. Then simply vanished.
So that is a story you heard?? A couple of summers ago I volunteered/lived on site at the Aztec Nat Ruins. I spent many nights in the Kiva because the ENERGY was so unique. Sitting there I was "struck" with the impression that they "knew" the Spanish were coming so they Danced their little hearts out and shifted their vibration. I've experienced enough High Strangeness that the idea seems possible. What do you know? Thanks.
I am an archaeologist, and I have to say: Don't think your opinion is less valid than that of professionals, if you make a good argument it is just as valid.
Personally, I have a big issue with claims about "evidence of warfare" or lack thereof. It's just something that can completly evade the archaeological record, especially if there is no siege warfare. And what many archaeologists often claim to be "desctruction layers" elsewhere is often of very dubious origin. Accidental house fires, ceremonies involving fire or even intentional leveling are virtually indistinguishable from signs of warfare.
One noteworthy parallel might be the so-called "Helvetic deserted lands" in southwestern Germany, where the Helvetii were displaced out of their nothern area by raiding germanic people.
Having grown up in AZ, I've wondered about this.
1) There were large populations needed to create large settlements, who 'suddenly' vacated the area - where did such a large group migrate to? Any reports of large enough migrations to compensate those numbers, especially within traditions of the 'local' peoples?; And yet, there have not been found large areas of graves/grave goods - possibly due to their religious practices.
2) Perhaps instead of lack of water, there was too much water - with the volcanic activity causing a cooling effect or volcanic winter similar to what is reported to have happened in the 1300s in Europe. There seem to be larger trees 'branches' in some of the older dwellings in the desert cliffs that could point to this rapid tree growth. Where are those larger type trees now?
3) Now, we know the Black Death arrived in Europe in the mid-1350s and killed up to 50% of the population of Europe. Perhaps this 'greening' caused a boom in population of prairie dogs and other rodents who are known to carry sylvatic plague (It is the same bacterium that causes bubonic and pneumonic plague in humans.). This is a potentially fatal disease spread to wild rodents by infected parasites. It's possible for people catch this illness through contact with either prairie dogs or their fleas - or some other unknown as of yet plague.
4) We know (or it has been reported) children's first huntings are of rabbits and 'other small mammals' and there would be an abundance of prairie dogs with the cooler weather and increase in food supply .... therefore, the youngest NA would be the first to contract the disease and possibly spread it to the rest of the community. Looking at maps of prairie dog ranges it appears the Gunnison and Black Tail species cover the 'empty' area. Can chipmunks, coyotes or other mammals carry these fleas?
5) With this 'plague' attacking the resident population and weakening it, perhaps that is when the 'enemies' started attacking and cliff dwellings became more populated as a defensive move - hiding crop stores and actual living areas. By the 1400s warfare, disease, perhaps climate warming back up after volcanic winter, and crop failures had decimated the population, as it did in Europe. The remaining people decided the area was either cursed or occupied by too many enemies or spirits so they departed to be around bigger groups of people (North and South of them) for safety. As artisan are usually more sedentary, perhaps they, and their knowledge of making the pots, passed close to 'first' ...
Oh well, that's how I think it could have happened. Guess my 'guess' or 'theory' is as good as some other's I read about.
All it takes is for one non expert to challenge the accepted/enforced history. Of course, that non expert will be laughed at and made to look foolish, until s/he is proved right. For instance, the Clovis culture people were absolutely the first peoples to enter the americas. Totally, completely upheld by experts. Until somebody thought to dig deeper and found an older culture. With the expected reaction from the experts. But it’s still there.
🌵fantastic video, thank you so much for the research, the maps, the pictures...
You're welcome, glad you enjoyed it.
This is the same era when the settlements of iceland, greenland and newfoundland were abandoned.
Great video Thankyou it was enjoyable and informative 😊
We will probably really know for sure, what happened to those tough people. I just like their pottery designs, emmensely!🤗
I would put it the other way around: warfare has never depopulated a region, and believe me, we have had a lot of that in Europe. Take just for example the One Hundred Years War between England and France which was at the same period that you consider here. The countryside was pillaged, burnt and destroyed regularly in France by English or Gascon warbands as well as idle merceneries for 120 years. The Black Death was at the same time, killing between a third and a half of the population. Nothing of this prevented France to flourish in the second half of the 15th century after the end of the war and it just became stronger and greater untill the Napoleonic wars (which didn't depopulate it either, it just never was the most populated country in Europe any more since). Another example: Hungary was a war zone for 150 years between the Turkish Empire and the Habsbourg Empire with fortresses plenty of fiersome warriors who pillaged everything if they weren't killing each other. OK, Hungary did depopulate somewhat, but we are still there today. From environmental changes on the other hand you cannot hide. If there is no water for your crops, you will not live. For environmental changes you don't have any more dinosaurs nor great salamanders living in the Antarctic's forests. This is why the region where the Sumerian cities created first civilization is now a complete desert: due to the slow but sure salination of the soils through irrigation. Take the Thirty Years War in Germany: it was extremely destructive, but is Germany depopulated today? I have little doubt that the environmental changes of the Little Ice Age are responsible for the depopulation of that sensitive region of the South-West which was on the limits of where agriculture was possible. It is great that there is a lot of timber preserved from those monuments and the dendrochronological study of the tree rings can show precisely how bad the drought may have been, as there is a complete dendrochronological record from that region till now.
❤
❤ Loved this video. Thanks so much.😊
Glad you liked it.
Thank you for the history lesson and information! Much appreciated!
I've watched a number of CZcams videos, that makes me an expert. My opinion is that you are correct, it was conflict. Many of the ruins are located on cliffs and they feature walls with numerous peep holes. If you are being attacked, the enemy knows that you know they are there. You don't have to peek at them through holes in the wall in an effort to fool them into thinking that no one is home and leaving.
In my opinion, the peep holes were so that a few defenders could monitor their attacker's progress of scaling the cliffs. And the attackers were large groups of individuals, some of whom may have been tasked with launching succesive waves of arrows or sling stones while their cohorts scaled the walls. The defenders had to keep their heads down from suppressive fire from numerous atrackers. If a small group of arrackers were launching some kind of airborne missiles, those missiles could be dodged. Some tribes in other parts of the world even practiced catching spears and throwing them back. Multiple arrows or sling stones would be hard to dodge, thus peep holes would be very handy. They'd allow a defender to pop up and attack select enemies as they came into range. The food storage areas are usually higher up. In my opinion, those areas could have even served as areas of last resort to retreat to. Like a tower in a castle. These retreats would probably have been defeated much like castles in Europe were.
When the dwellings were defeated they would most likely be burned, which many were. And the food and water storage items, like clay pots would be destroyed. This would make its very hard for others to quickly move in and reestablish the area. Which would force the attackers to re-attack again in a few years. I imagine that even in the event a decided to abandon an area ahead of enemy incursions, they'd destroy every thing they could not carry, including heavy pottery. Thus explaining the huge amount of broken pottery that usually abounds in the ruins.
If you like this type of video about the history of the ancient Southwest, you will enjoy this playlist with all of the videos I have made on similar subjects. czcams.com/play/PLxjk09ZJzrltbnW4SM3jurT_qJat_5mQQ.html
Wow, Andy. You peaked interest with this video! Love it.
From the Southwest (New Mexico), not an archeologist, but from what I do know in other areas of the world I think we can find clues.
The 1400s were the start of the little ice age. On one data point year (1452/3) there was massive spike of sulfates in ice cores that shows one volcanic eruption. 5 years later there was another. This was all coinciding with exiting a really warm and fruitful warm period to a sharply colder period in the 1400s.
Native plants tend to stay dormant longer due to cold temps, and adding volcanic events that darkened the sky and poisoned the ground it'd be nearly impossible to keep a large population alive on what our area would have been able to support. Plant too early and the sprouts die. Too late and the harvest is small. This was following bad droughts from the 1300s as well which also would have impacted them.
Sadly when the Europeans and European diseases hit the local Natives would have been on life support from centuries prior due to climate and volcanic activities.
I love all your videos, Andy, and I don't do pottery.
Great video Andy! We share a lot of the same theories for sure.
Thanks
Very well done. Mind blowing.
Read books written by Immanuel Velikovski. He collected information from ancient civilizations regarding a mass casualty even. Waters boiled, mountains melted, and something was passing by the earth and scorching the land. It caused darkness, famine and widespread death. That was my summing up of a book called "worlds in collision". The mainstream gatekeepers of his time hated him with a pasion for messing up their chronologies and world views. Velikovski was also a Jewish man who may have believed in God from what i understood. All that he did was compile historical accounts of ancient yet major civilizations and elaborate on the information.
As a trained archaeologist I would look into climatology records for the time concerned if there is no evidence for warfare. People who leave areas because of warfare leave their dead behind. In the bones we would then find traces of warfare as evidence. Evidence of refugees in other areas would be found in pottery that pick up forms and patterns. So, knowing so much about specific pottery, you are highly competent to judge if this was the case. 🙋🏻♀️
yup. There's a bunch of reconstructions, like those by Smerdon, or Anchukaitis. I'd start there (long time since I looked at that, not my area of expertise)
To me it is interesting that there is little evidence from pottery as to where they went. Probably much more work needs to be done in certain areas, and as you know, there is very little archaeology being done these days.
@@AncientPotterysorry to hear that, it's ages ago since my last contact with an environmental archaeologist from UCLA, who might know more about it. I am more a European Bronze- and Iron Age- Type 😉
the magazine "Science News" reports studies in the 1990s about evidence in scraping of human bones of cannibilism in teh area.
@@AncientPottery if famine fully set in before they left, would fully explain the lack of pottery.
I love your videos about the history of the ancient Southwest. 👍
Thank you so much!
@@AncientPottery
👍
Good stuff, TY Andy.👍
No problem 👍
These history videos are great. You should make more.
Hantavirus maybe, I think it struck just before or about the time of Spanish arrival in Mexico City .
Interesting.
Awesome video
Thanks!
When drought makes resources scarce, tribalism creates war, and both are antithetical to the idea of “accepting refugees.” When you can’t feed your own children and elders off of the diminished productivity of your land, you certainly are not going to allow the tribe next door to take dwindling food from your own starving tribe. Cycles of long, abnormally wet periods- followed by extended drought periods- is very well documented in the geologic record there in the Great Basin, and is known to be caused by alterations in the Jet Stream path across North America, and there are long 500-800 year cyclic patterns seen in the water table geology: With warmer periods, the Jet Stream is forced northward by high pressure in the Great Basin, which deposits above-average precipitation along the northern US and Canada, while leaving the southwest increasingly dry. This general pattern also explains the flooding you mentioned on the northern margins of the depopulated region you described. It all fits this long-cycle precipitation pattern precisely; of warm wet Pacific air being redirected northward by regional temperature swings. The extra wrinkle making these events long-cycle affairs is the evaporation of lakes in the Great Basin region (like Salt Lake) during the hot dry periods… Lakes normally act as heat sink buffers against extreme hot and extreme cold… but a long enough hot/dry period causes them to evaporate enough to lose much of their temperature/pressure buffering ability - which then drives the climate even hotter and drier in a feedback loop… creating these periods of extreme, civilization-destroying drought cycles.
What is also interesting, is that Oxford University in London was starting about 1096! Amazing that those things can happen at the same time!!
Hi Andy! I recently discovered your channel and have been enjoying it very much. Keep up the great work. It's very educational. One thing that may have led to warfare, migration, etc. may have been a large volcanic eruption, perhaps in the western states, perhaps farther away in the western Pacific. A large volcanic eruption would have discharged large amounts of dust and volcanic gas into the atmosphere, causing widespread crop failures for multiple years on end. That would have led to competition (i.e. warfare) for what few sources of food remained. I'm wondering, did these cultures move, or were they simply wiped out? Perhaps with a few stragglers able to survive somehow and restart lives somewhere else. I sure love the SW, but being that I live in eastern Canada I can't get there too often, though I have been to many of the places you mention. Again, I love the channel and your pottery and the information you provide.
Good questions but many of them seem unanswerable at this time. I would think that a volcanic eruption in 1400 would leave ample evidence
A volcanic eruption would leave geological evidence that could be at least roughly dated. I'm not aware of any recent volcanic activity in that region or immediately west, upwind. The nearest volcanoes I know of would be in northern california.
A very interesting phenomenon.
Very interesting video. I applaud your insight and openness. Your comments bring up two questions I have about this area; 1) If the area was devastated by an externally derived disease, statistically speaking it should not have killed off the whole population. A percentage would develop antibodies to the disease and these would be transmitted to their children So, if some disease was brought into this area pre-Columbus, wouldn't the people existing there , and by conjecture their descendents, have immunity to European (for example) diseases post-Columbus? Historically speaking, recent scientific research seems to show that multi-millions of indigenous peoples in the western hemisphere died as a result of interaction with post-Columbus Europeans. For this reason I have doubts about an external disease causing such a disruption in this area pre-Columbus.
2) I have hiked through many areas of the desert southwest, e.g. Cedar Mesa as only one example. According to archeologists the population, though fluctuating through time, was often quite high. Has anyone produced a documentary that visually provides examples of how this area produced enough food to feed such populations? I grew up in the midwest working on a farm, and am knowledgeable about how present societies feed themselves using existing farming technology. How did the Anasazi and their descendants cultivate corn, beans, and squash in a desert environment in sufficient amounts to feed large populations? I'm sure they did just that, but how? To clarify this a bit, the present ecosystem is often in a pinion-juniper, or a warmer/drier desert environment. Drainage systems/canyons adjacent to cliff dwellings alone would seem to be too small to feed the immediate population. The population must have cut and scavenged the nearby P/J woodland for firewood. How did the human population get water to what I imagine as croplands on the plateau areas above their homes in the cliffs after the woodland was cleared? Let's assume that the existing valley and canyon drainage systems themselves would have been heavily dammed and irrigated (something that may have disappeared over the last millenium due to flooding events,) That still doesn't seem to leave enough irigateable land for adequate food supplies.
As another commenter stated, these peoples were intelligent, creative, and adaptive. Most of us, myself included, could not live in their environment today without our modern technology to get us by. Jarrod Diamond in his book "Collapse" believes that it takes a number of things to cause a civilization to disappear. These include drought, over population, and environmental destruction. Add to these natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, and perhaps you have your answer.
I really like this video. I will subscribe to see more!
amazing video
Yay new vid
I'm not very well versed in this subject but I was always under the impression that the abandoned area was much larger. From Mesa Verde in Colorado, into Utah and extending all across the southwest. As I watch other channels exploring the area I see that they find many instances of structures that to me can only be fortifications as they are built on prominent spots that have a commanding view of the area and are easily defended.
You are thinking of the abandonment of the four-corners region around 1300. This video is specifically about what happened in 1400, so although they are similar and may be related, they are different phenomenons that are separated by over 100 years.
Could it have been a disease, like plague?
Aztec/Aztlan culture started their migration southward around the same time 1200-1400 and were firmly settled in Mexico city/ Lake Texcoco area by 1400. The late classic Maya and other southern Central Anmeican cultures experienced their final collapse within the same timeframe also. As well as the Dine/Apache being on the move south in their migration from the far north of Canada/ Yukon down to the Southwest & co existing on the same lands as the remaining puebloans. Long periods of drought over a couple centuries leading to resource depletion, conflict and mass migrations in search of reliable water sources.
Tytler said the cycle starts out with a society in bondage.
Then it goes in this sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to complacency; From complacency to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.
If major warfare over time you get weapon deposits, graves, and burnings...
If flooding you get flood deposits...
If droughts you get graves and a slow decline in population with mass exiting and so do stay for a while. Maybe even waves of population evacuations.
In most cases it takes a few of these ideas over time to desolate the culture, but as a culture becomes softer than their ancestors.
Sounds a lot to what happened during the Bronze Age Collapse.
Interesting idea, I'll have to read about that
@@AncientPottery I first learned of the Bronze Age Collapse through Epimetheus's channel.
I agree. This sounds like the bronze age. This also sounds like Easter Island. From what I grasp of the of the subject it was a combination of things that coincided with depletion of resources. I don't think people realize the amount of resources it takes to start a civilization from scratch.
How very interesting. I had not realised that such a vast area was depopulated.
War and vengeance certainly causes depopulation - the Harrying of the North AD 1070(ish) killed thousands, not so many by arms, but the by products, famine, disease, moving away. England's history records this, are there any oral traditions that support the idea of large-scale war in these areas? Thanks for the video, so interesting!
A few tales in the O'odham that I am aware of. A lot of the Native oral histories are not shared with outsiders.
Interesting stuff
Interesting video!
Thanks Will
My theory is that when some people leave in one area, the change the dynamic of the surrounding area, which makes more people leave.
Just a theory
No doubt that is true and can work either way, increasing or decreasing the surrounding area population.
Where are the bones? What did these ancient ones do with their dead?
Some buried and some cremated but there are no mass graves from that era that I have ever heard of.
Coyotes, wolves. Nom nom lunch is served
Great break down of the known history
You're a great communicator
Now I know where John Denver’s missing eye glasses are. Mystery solved.
Most likely, it was more than just one thing , drought, created lack , lack created famine, famine, created d illness, illness created war . By this time, people would disperse and smaller groups come together to make another culture all together.
Just think about what happened during the great depression. Imagine that in 1400, and how people would react, in that time . Or just ask rhe indigenous people that are still there. I am more then sure they have stories of those times, that are probanly more true then our suposions , theories, and guesses.
Yes so true, problems are often cause by multiple things ate compound, a "perfect storm" if you will. The Natives do have stories but those of us not in those communities are not often privy to those tales.
I am sorry for my unkind comment the other day about discomfort. It was cruel & unkind, I have learned a lesson. I appreciate your enthusiasm for your subject & your content is very interesting. Sorry, sorry.
This is very interesting.
Thanks
If I may make some observations...I agree with the "hardy people" but I would not call that lifestyle "hard." That is a perspective that most...outsiders...make of traditional cultures. Traditional/wilderness living (something I was raised in) is not "hard" at all if you have those skill sets and your normative culture, perspectives, and behaviors are comprised of that assistance with a biome ecology and general makeup. Even after leaving that type of culture and setting, most "raised in it" go back to it or keep many aspects of it around them in their daily lives. For example, I have power tools but prefer hand tools...
As to your question, and the one that "Eurocentric" archeologists often speculate over then suggest it is "warfare and drought." Both discount the oral histories of these cultures which speak of darkness, blight, or sadness…depending on the group and reachness of the oral history maintained. 1492 and the Spaniards invasion of North America…IS NOT…the first time that Europeans came to North America, or even others from the Pacific and East. What they bring with them always, is a plethora of diseases that an isolated culture has zero immunity for…
I agree, that drought would have zero effect on these cultures. They have and will continue to deal with that climate issue as long as there are humans. We have for millennia. If something is destroyed, we rebuild and that behavior is eternal in our species…So no, doubt had nothing to do with this exodus…
War can drive one culture away only to be replaced by another. This is common across time and the history of humans. To even suggest that war caused this is simply obtuse and very narrow-minded in perspective for anyone to even consider as it makes no sense whatsoever for the simple fact, as you pointed out, this region sat fallow for centuries. This absence of humans speaks to regional indigenous wisdom of a presence there that was unsafe to be around. This is another reason some (not all) areas have evidence of burning or disparagement beyond looting. Unclean things are cleansed by fire. Humans have known this for millennia. When 50% or more of your family or society falls ill that can be interpreted in many ways by that given culture, however, the outcome is always the same, self-isolation, breakdown of the psyche, loss of skills, and abandonment of many things including a location. They (most not all) left these places. What or who brought the pandemic to the region is speculative, but with more advanced scientific capacity maybe one day the pathogen will be isolated and identified. I am confident that war and drought were not the primary catalysts in any way but could well have exacerbated the challenges this region felt but only after it was in duress…
Thanks for another of your wonderful videos and sharing your viewpoints...
If "red" men had evolved enough to write, "white" acheologists would not have to guess what happened. As far as oral history goes, in the 5th grade we played the telephone game....not to reliable.
@@johnscotland3124 I will edit out "white" then, thank you for your observation...and I will replace with "Eurocentric" bias which is still all too common in academia today and very wrong often and/or misguided on many topics...
Oral histories are not meant to be 100% reliable at all. They are a guide and insight into an indigenous culture and what they, collectively have experienced...Your obtuse and snide comment about "red" is both argumentative and unnecessary. I used the term white to reflect a known bias, not as a slander in any way. As for "written language"... Aztecs, Maya, Zapotecs, et al of Mesoamerica had native writing systems and cosmological mathematics more advanced than many other cultures, including those in Europe, so your comment about writing is moot.
@@johnscotland3124 I will edit out "white" then, thank you for your observation...and I will replace with "Eurocentric" bias which is still all too common in academia today and very wrong often and/or misguided on many topics... Oral histories are not meant to be 100% reliable at all. They are a guide and insight into an indigenous culture and what they, collectively have experienced...Your obtuse and snide comment about "red" is both argumentative and unnecessary. I used the term white to reflect a known bias, not as a slander in any way. As for "written language"... Aztecs, Maya, Zapotecs, et al of Mesoamerica had native writing systems and cosmological mathematics more advanced than many other cultures, including those in Europe, so your comment about writing is moot.
do you think the dark ages ending in 1500 would have played a part in the indigenous tribes of the southwest dispersal and or disappearance? And that the dark ages and lack of radiation during the dark ages could have thrown off radio carbon dating as well? They say then dark ages lasted a thousand years, so sometime during pueblo 1 period until pueblo 3 period. Were the dark ages influencing our southwest culture? I also suspect that there were pre-conquest missions that were never reported which could explain some of the calamity... interesting stuff here! Great pottery shots and great show, Mr. Ward! thank you!
Good thoughts, we do not have a hard fast day when European diseases first appeared, perhaps there were earlier expeditions. Someone here suggested that the Scandinavians may have brought disease over much earlier. Thanks, I am anxiously waiting for your next video, what has it been, a month?
European diseases are known to have wiped out cultures in less than 20 years based on the Amazon River explorations reporting thriving communities which no longer existed and reclaimed by the jungle which was noted twenty years later by other explorers .
@@AncientPottery we are working on three videos, and just got done filming our Escelante El Malpais trail expidition,... Next heading toward Zuni Via ancient trails. We are not burned out, but we put too much time into the Cibola wear without the success we had hoped for. The next video will be Acoma Zuni trail Escelante Trail and a trip through El Malpais National monument. I love this stuff!
Don’t forget that pottery also changed the way people cooked food. For the first time people cooked food in those pots. It was the first time they used herbs as flavorings in those pots and basically made the first stews. A huge advancement in technology. 1:22
What impressed me was the pottery, and then on close inspection you realise these people had maths, division, design and not on some base level... The design is as good as anything today, the quality of craftsmen-ship is superb... so where did these talents go. Look at the pots where you see 4x fingers interlinking with 3 fingers ... that is counting, that is division and look at the depiction of the bird hunting the fish, that is stunning work. Very skilled work, a society that accommodates this level of skill are most able....
My point is, if they survived the migration from their homeland, then their art work and mathematics would be somewhere... but if they did not survive then what a tragedy. Thanks for the podcast...
I read something about the Anasazi were really from the South I believe and had canabalist ideas. Also they took people for slave trade. They said this is why people left but I don't know if that would account for that many.
Yes, I think that may be true. The hard thing to figure out though is how Pueblo culture could have gone from that to the egalitarian culture we know today.
I think you may misunderstand "slave culture" in the Southwestern tribes or even North American tribes. It was not the same at all as we found in Europe or even the Middle Eastern cultures where it still takes place to this very day. Canabalism is speculative at best and extremely rare or taken out of context. Slavery culture would not have accounted for the mass exodus, even in the fashion it was practiced within Southwestern cultures...
The Hopi have a well kept history, if anyone knows what happened, it may be them.
Also, archeology is only so trustworthy. They got so hooked on the idea of a "clovis culture" that they refused to accept that it was a technologic innovation dispersion, not a single culture rapidly expanding to people the continents, and the academic elite systematically denied pre-clovis culture finds, because they didn't want to challenge what had become the archeological paradigm because people have made their fame off those lies. There are indigenous archeologists challenging some of the outdated racist narratives, but those racist narratives are still a problem that has suppressed actual history and filled a lot of people with misinformation.
True, I would not be surprised if the Hopi do know what happened, but they are not telling anyone their secrets and for good reason.
The Amazon was populated by millions when Spanish explorers first discovered it, also giving them small pox. When they came back a hundred years later or whenever it was all gone and the jungle had taken it back, calling the first explorers liars. Lidar tech is now finding huge cities with infrastructure consumed by the jungle.
For 5 decades, around the time of the Black Death, a European tree ring growth scientist says trees in Europe were very slow growing, a sister study in New Zealand repeated this.
Search for books and papers by Michael G. L. Baillie (1944-2023) a leading expert in dendrochronology, or dating by means of tree-rings, and Professor of Palaeoecology at Queen's University of Belfast, in Northern Ireland. In the 1980s, he was instrumental in building a year-by-year chronology of tree-ring growth reaching 7,400 years into the past.
then co-relate this tree-ring growth trough to chemical spikes in the greenland ice-core records for the same period
Native legends speak of The Gambler who took over. As I understand this saga, powerful traders came from the south and they had trading networks deep into Mexico. They brought copper bells, scarlet macaws and chocolate, among other fascinating goods. The native peoples fell under the spell of these traders and eventually became enslaved. At some point in time, the native peoples rebelled and said, "Enough"! After that there is a tradition of, "We are not going to do that anymore." Meaning, they walk away from the scene of tragedy and discord.
I am Anglo, a journalist, not an archaeologist. When I leave an opinion like this, there tends to be some harsh replies. I want to learn and hopefully those who know more will correct and add knowledge without including strife between different groups existing today.
That's a Navajo legend, they came along after this had happened.
There were catastrophic volcanic eruptions 1292 and again in the 1450's causing climatic changes similar to the "year without a summer" that caused displacements from crop failures in 1813 and 1814 due to the Tambora eruption. Crop failures were probably occurring in North America too causing social disruption. The end of the Medieval Warm Period which caused the abandonment of Nordic settlements in Greenland during the same period around 1200 to 1400 was replaced by the Little Ice Age. That really didn't end until the industrial revolution during the19th century.
I agree with your conclusion. I am old now, but I have asked myself "why did they leave?" ever since I was a teenager. I initially thought it was the eruption of Sunset Crater that displaced the Ancestoral Pueblo peoples, but simple timing disproves that theory. The AP peoples didn't begin their migration to the Rio Grande Valley until several hundred years after the eruption. Drought and deforestation in the 1300s may have been a contributing factor to the exodus of the AP peoples, but that doesn't explain the abandonment of the Hohokam cities. While I readily concede my knowqledge is limited to the AP and Hohokam cultures, the only explanation for the diaspora of those cultures that fits the archeological record is a gradually increasing infiltration [invasion?] into the Southwest of warlike outsiders. I can think of no other reason why the Ancestotal Pueblo people would have gone from building great cities such as those in Chaco Canyon to living on narrow ledges situated hundreds of feet above the floors of remote canyons. For me, the only remaining question is who were the warlike invaders? I have come to believe they were the people who eventually became the six Apache tribes described by Geronimo in his 1906 autobiography, but you indicate @ 11:00 that the Athabascan peoples [the Navajo and Apache] arrived in the Southwest in the 1600s. Are you certain of this? While I have long been aware the Navajo didn't arrive on the Colorado Plateau until more than a hundred years after the Coronodo expedition visited the Hopi mesas, I believe the Apaches had already been in the region for several hundred years when the Navajo arrived. The early Spanish explorers described how the Hopi hired the Zunis to defend them from warlike people living South of their mesas. Is it not true those warlike people were the Apache? Thank you for a thought-provoking video. You have given me something to ponder for the next few years!
@3:30, interesting description of causality