"Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality" - My conversation with Helen Joyce
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2023
- Here is my conversation with Helen J on 'The Poetry of Reality', tackling the influence of gender ideology on society, the ideological lens, and its implications for scientific facts.
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being a tomboy in rural Texas in the 80's, my parents would have absolutely thought of transitioning me, were they given an option to fix their gender non conforming girl. They were so horrified at the thought that I might be gay, they pushed more barbies and more dresses, beauty pageants...I would cut my hair, take off dresses and sit naked in a room until I was allowed to wear pants. Guess what? I am straight, straight as the day is long. I am just a bit butch, and I like comfortable shoes. My husband was a bit feminine, didnt like sports, preferred girls to boys as friends, musical artistic...very straight. We have been happily married for 20 years. I think the thing we miss is, how absolutely shitty being a girl is. Periods, puberty, boobs, the male gaze upon you, society, all of it. That is why I hated girly things, girls had to stay in doors, be quiet, wear uncomfortable clothes. Boys could be loud, stay outside, run around...I just saw the boys had more freedom. If as a 5 year old someone asked me if I wanted to be a boy, i would have said YES!. Part of being an adult is the horror of working it out and finding out how to live in your body. No one tells kids anymore, all these gross feeling you are having, are normal, they will come and go, that most of this stuff you will grow out of.I feel so bad for kids now.
This is a perfect example that gender is not binary and is on a sliding scale, hence “tomboys”. That IS NOT the same thing as someone being transgender. People don’t transition to another gender just because they don’t like wearing dresses or vis versa.
So well put!
A tomboy is someone who identifies as a female but acts and likes things that are traditionally masculine.
A transgender male identifies as a male but was born in a female body.
People do tell kids that - ask any gay or trans person. We're all told that. By society if no one else. At least you got to experience how oppressive gender can be. Helen may well be right that such social structures can be supportive but they can also be deeply oppressive and scarring and it's the modern recognition of that that has been liberating. But yes, one can run with that too far.
What a great comment. I hope you spread your story to as many people as possible.
As a gay man I find it concerning that, as was said in the interview, young kids who could potentially live a healthy homosexual life in the future are manipulated to become a cartoonish mimicry of the most regressive opinions on male and female social representations. There is some unconscious homophobia in the roots of an ideology that forces sexual travesty before sexuality itself could blossom. Thanks for this interview. It was quite interesting and so good to hear a balanced and moderate speech on the matter.
Yes. Jazz Jennings is one of them. His parents did not want a gay son and rather have a transdauggter
Schools Silence the parents. Listen only to kids and let the kids make all life altering permanent decisions. Don't let parents speak. Trick parents to sign consent forms because of the lie and fallacy doctors tell them "they will have a dead child if no affirmative care " lies, lies, lies.
Breaking News=Sex change surgery has 100% failure rate. An inverted penis will never be a vagina. A forearm skin cylinder sewn on will never be a penis.
Breaking News= Affirmative care has a 100% failure rate. Scienctist have now proven puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and mutilation surgeries NEVER CHANGE YOUR SEX OR AFFIRM YOUR GENDER. A male WILL always stay male. A female will ALWAYS stay female. You can't change nature, biology or molecular genetics.
@@EradicatingTransame with Susie Green
Then, as a gay man (like myself) you should know that nothing you could do could change the fact that you're gay. The idea that young people are being tricked into thinking they're trans is just as ridiculous as suggesting you can be tricked into being gay, which is exactly what they said in the 90s about homosexuality. "Predatory homosexuals are indoctrinating children" was the tagline that brought in Section 28. Be a better ally for young queer kids and stop enabling transphobia under the guise of protecting homosexuals when it's doing the opposite.
I’m with you on this 100%
Such courage in the face of terroristic persecution is deserving of the utmost admiration. We must all try to emulate Helen's fearlessness. DO NOT COWER; STAND UP for objective, reasoned truth, and PROTECT our children.
@Skotty1899 How do you propose I protect a child from its parents or parent? Say for example I am working in my garden and a neighborhood 8 year old has often been standing around, watching me, or sitting on his bicycle, watching me, asking me questions about what plants I am cultivating, and how I am doing that. I have been chatting with this kid for months now. This appears to me to be a boy child who has some "feminine" qualities I think, and I have not seen him engaged in rough and tumble play with other boys. He does not talk about spectator sports. He seems more interested in the various plants in my garden, and in how I nurture them. One day he just flat-out tells me that "it is being arranged; my parents have talked to my doctor about gender-reassignment surgery and my doctor thinks this might be the best thing for me." You're a girl? I ask. "I thought you were a boy." "I'm a girl" he says. "My body may look like a boy's body but I'm actually a girl." I don't argue with him, but I think he senses my skepticism. One day I hear his mother, from across the street, yelling "you have to come home now Tammy. Come home right away. I'm sure Mr Soilman doesn't want you bothering him all the time while he's tending to his garden." of course "Tammy," or Tommy as I had been calling him, hasn't been bothering me in the least. The truth is, I've enjoyed our conversations. If his mother wants to him to have long hair, paint his nails, and wear pink shorts, in order to make him look more "feminine," I am not worried about the kid. But when she wants to start interfering with the normal growth and development of his body, and arrange drugs and cosmetic surgery, in order to make him look more feminine. that's when I worry. Should he turn 18, get a job, move out of his mother's house, and decide on his own to have drugs and surgery to make him look more feminine, at that point time it is no longer any of my business. But until then, how do I protect him from his mother, a psychiatrist, an endocrinologist, and a surgeon, who want start using drugs and surgery to make him look more feminine, when he is still 8 years old, and may not be old enough to appreciate all the risks involved in drugs and surgery, and the lifelong consequences of, at age 8, starting to interfering with the normal course of bodily development? It is one thing for me to _state_ the facts, _state_ the truth. It is another thing to interfere with the relationship between a child and its parents, no matter how misinformed, and reckless, I think that its parents are.
I was born in Iran. I have been living in Canada for 20 years now. In Iran, you are pressured into buying into religious nonsense and speaking out against it gets you in trouble. That is precisely why I left Iran. Now in Canada, if I say what my opinion is about religion (that it is nonsense) or what my opinion is about the woke culture (that it is nonsense), I also get in trouble. It is even worse for people like me to experience this kind of stuff in a western society after coming here to escape them in our home country. It is utterly sad to see a large group of people lose their minds and for the insane to take over. Thank you both for spreading common sense.
ok one thing though, what people have suffered in Iran for not complying with the theocracy is in NO WAY c comparable with people speaking against wokism in the western world honesty. That is a bad comparison.
@@thomasdupont7186I think you get their point though, no?
The world is always changing. Right now we are in a time when the tides are changing a lot. Hold on, it will be a ride but it will be ok.
Another fake troll
In America today, there are people who will try to have you removed from a public space if you wear the wrong color hat.
Listening makes me feel like grown-ups have entered the room. Thanks for the sanity, rationality, and respectful dialog.
It’s so comforting isn’t it
I thought I would never see the day when abuse is called sanity. Finally!!! 🥳🥳🥳
Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums.
I guess my main point is to question the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive...
With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.
@@La_Monde well you’re certainly not a grown up with a reply like that…
Came awfully late on Dawkins's side, didn't it? Oh well, better late than never. He's a huge voice, and I'm glad he did it.
Finally somebody who dares to say that this "assigning" at birth is complete nonsense.
"Male and female aren't prizes for effort." This woman is brilliant. 😆
@@MichelleLouiseDavis there are people who can be male or female and then the theythem creatures.
@@MichelleLouiseDavis cis is a hateful slur.
@@MichelleLouiseDavis Every time I have heard it used it was in fact being used as a derogatory term. I AM NOT a "cis woman" I am a woman. Period. Putting the "cis" in front of it as to imply my opinion is irrelevant, or I am somehow less than a trans woman is nothing shy of insanity.
@@jodiebasye9798 Is there a term you would prefer? "Non-trans" perhaps?
@@MichelleLouiseDavis We have the term "banana", and everyone understands what a "banana" is. Then along comes alien matter from space, looks like a banana, but is composed of some unknown material, so people start calling them "space bananas". Now, your "cis" bs, is the same thing, as claiming that in the example with the "space bananas", everyone would need to start calling the regular old earth bananas "cis bananas" now, to "differentiate" between edible earth bananas and the new space "bananas" - which is absolutely ridiculous, because the differentiation "banana" / "space banana" is ALREADY as clear as it gets. Everyone who refuses to buy into the quasi-religious tenets of "trans" ideology can see that trying to force the "cis" label onto people, when a perfectly clear distinction already exists, ie "woman" (female)/ "trans woman" (male), trying to forcibly rebrand every non-trans person, as "cis", when it is ALREADY perfectly clear that they are not "trans" because they aren't using the "trans" prefix, is nonsense, and simply a manipulative tactic to try minimise the real and perceived difference. The supposed "logic" behind trying to force "cis" onto people is laughably easy to dismantle, and if you haven't got an argument that can stand up to basic scrutiny then you haven't got much of an argument.
This interview should be shown in schools.
University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?! Why show an interview where someone is spewing misinformation, saying there is absolutely no evidence for something that has mountains of evidence
Only when the kids are old enough to understand the context....
Sadly, this interview would be considered blasphemy toward accepted doctrine; hatespeech that wiuld never be allowed anywhere near a typical school today.
What a beautiful interview. I wish there was a "science party" in America to vote for.
There kind of is. It's the Scientist Party and it's a tyrannical belief in experts instead of processes. It's the opposite of science.
As a scientist trust me that is the last thing we need.
The last thing you need is Sleepy Joe and the Democrats?
A science party would be fantastic. No more group identity BS from the left and no more bible brainwash from the right.
God help us. The governing bodies of scientific disciplines in the US have been taken over by raging Wokesters.
Dawkins has always been the textbook definition of "gentleman and scholar". His unwavering commitment to science and truth is needed more now than ever.
One of my favorites as well but he also believes in man made global warming and that nationalism is a bad thing so there is room for improvement.
@@Sigmund1924 You may want to read my comment again, and come back with a more scientific response.
@@alibabaschultz352 I merely questioned his, “Unwavering commitment to science and truth.” Why would that merit a scientific response given your post lacked scientific data?
@@Sigmund1924three things he is right about on.
@@Sigmund1924I'm curious, do you think nationalism is a good thing? And if so, why?
“Male and female are not prizes for effort.” - Helen Joyce
That’s the-slam dunk, Mr. Dawkins.
I think the focus of this conversation is entirely displaced from where it needs to be, and that is analyzing the role of gross inequalities in power/influence in society. Trans activists are not 'sweeping' away the ability of woman to define themselves, or the scientific understanding of human biology, (there's also heaps of cultural, physical, and physiological diversity within the group "woman" anyway"). Trans people are not challenging what a woman is, and they are not who are oppressing woman. It's the patriarchy! Or more broadly, its the system of gross power/influence inequalities based on wealth that enables some individuals and institutions to oppress, persecute, or ignore others. Its patriarchical institutions if anything who wants to be in charge of defining sexes, just ask the christian churches, just ask right wing idealogues, just ask most commentors who kick back against trans-activists and anyone else trying to seek justice or a safe place from oppression by this system, just ask the CEOS of multi-nationals who align their stores and entertainment venues to whatever demographics or social trends they think will make them the most money...
The greatest potential to challenge our current configuration of entrenched hierarchies of wealth/power lies along socio-economic lines, not gender/identity lines. The power held by powerful men (or woman) in modern society largely depends on wealth and its associated myths (e.g., meritocracy: the myth that rich people deserve to be rich and poor people deserve to be poor, the myth that free market dynamics can function in the presence of gross wealth inequalities, the myth that something's value to the human and more than human world is represented by its price, the myths that brands and labels can define us, etc., etc.). In short, the power of all elites and their institutions to work in their own self-interest while subverting the interests of the less powerful is through wealth. WEalth poured into advertising, wealth poured into lobbying, wealth poured into political campaigns, wealth poured into outright bribery and corruption, etc. You want to challenge patriarchy? you want to engender a fair and equitable society? Then challenge the concentration and entrenchment of wealth in individuals and institutions. Lots of these other issues and problems will evaporate when our individual material well-being and security isn't presaged by how much wealth we earn.
@@CCDR07 “Trans people are not challenging g what a woman is”
>> Yes, yes they are. They are precisely doing that.
- the populace treated ‘Gender’ as a simple genteel SYNONYM for sex. Not some vague notion of a feeling in one’s head.
- Social behaviour, how one feels or expresses oneself, does not affect one’s sex / gender
- the Transgender movement relies on ingraining misogynistic sex behaviour stereotypes of which western societies have been chipping away since the 1950s.
- No woman has, or had, a penis.
- There are only two gametes. There is no such thing as non-binary gender.
- Everyone has a unique persona which includes one’s manifestation of a particular mix of masculine/feminine traits. Persona has no bearing on whether one is male or female.
- If you want, persona is non-binary, not gender/sex.
- Apart perhaps from radically hermaphrodite babies, no one is assigned their sex at birth. Male or female is observed, based on prospective gamete type production, and immutable.
- Gender has ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with power and who is or isn’t oppressed.
It has nothing to do with socialism or equality / inequality.
@@CCDR07I'd argue that trans ideology works in tandem with the patriarchy as biological males still have a stance of power in places where trans ideology is widely accepted. A personal example is in my small liberal town, a self identified trans women have been caught peeping at women and children over their stalls within the last 5 years. They have been caught 2 times by women in the locker room but got away each time due to the staff being afraid of getting in trouble for discrimination. The fact of the matter is trans women are at risk of ridicule and violence in certain parts of the world, yes, but they are also at a physical advantage over women everywhere no matter the political setting. Especially transwomen who still have pensises. We see this with prisoners being raped and even impregnated by self identified trans women. How is this not a threat to women?
I also push against the assertion that trans activists are not trying to take away women's right to speak how they'd like or trying to destroy the reality of sex. First of all, we are removing language that works for the majority to appeal to the minority in medical care, not when the minority is being cared for, but around the board. Using words like chest feeders, uterus Havers, birthers, which is seen as dehumanizing to many women, but that doesn't seem to matter because people with vaginas don't matter as much, which is due to the patriarchyyoh speak of.
Notice how very little accommodations there are for trans men. Medical and journalist terminology hasn't changed to call men penis Havers or sperm donors.
Also the term assigned male or female at birth is a direct affront to the material reality that sex is real and for the majority and for the normal functioning, is visible identifiable, so yes, there is an attack on sex, which is a serious problem, particularly for medical purposes.
Most trans men continue to compete in women's spaces but trans women are now going into women's. Why is that? If it's about being true to your identity, why are trans men not competing with other men? Trans men are at an advantage with upped testosterone AND trans women are at an advantage for having a male body, even with the lowering of strength via estrogen. How is this not an attack on biological women's rights to equity and just safety of their body?
The patriarchy is also a huge reason why so many young women are now identifying as trans, trans identification of adolescent females has SKYROCKETED within a mere decade, and it makes sense considering the dire reality of being female in a patriarchal society. It's also a fact that 90% of these youth find themselves not actually trans when gone through adolescence, and many of them ending up actually homosexual, so the current tran movement as it stands also benefits from homophobia as well as the patriarchy.
I am not saying therefore let's not give trans people opportunities, accommodations or respect as fellow human beings. What I am saying is we need to find a way to exist within material reality AND honour people's unique experiences. If there is nothing wrong with being trans, why try and skew biological reality?
And I am also saying that I agree, patriarchy and wealth disparity are a HUGE issue and are tangibly harming people, for many demographics much more directly than trans ideology, but trans ideology is intertwined with patriarchy and homophobia, so it is a part of the puzzle
@@CCDR07 "Lots of these other issues and problems will evaporate when our individual material well-being and security isn't presaged by how much wealth we earn".- so you want things that belong to others, given out to those that did nothing for it ie for free. That was tried in the 20th century. It was called Communism.
@@CCDR07uh
I think adults can do whatever the want that doesn't harm someone else. But I am categorically against any elective medical procedures for minors, regardless of what it is. And I fully agree that allowing biological males in women's sports is unambiguously antifeminist. Literally slowly erasing the hard earned achievements of women.
While it's good that you support the autonomy of adults, it's important to note that medical interventions for transgender minors are often supported by extensive medical and psychological evaluations. These are not decisions taken lightly, and many medical organizations stand behind the best practices for treating minors with gender dysphoria.
Regarding sports, it's a nuanced issue that requires balancing fairness with inclusivity. Many sports organizations are implementing policies that aim to create a level playing field for everyone involved, taking into account more than just biological sex. Dismissing these efforts as "antifeminist" simplifies a complex debate.
@@qarl8176 I know I feel very differently about things as an adult, and have psychologically changed immensely since I was a child. If I had been held, by medical intervention, to something I was even maybe 'obsessed' (not a good word but it exemplifies children's thought processes) with as a child, I may be more psychologically damaged throughout my life and needing to seek further medical and psychological intervention.
@fluffyfour and that's what leftists dont even think about, the effect it has on your body 5 to 10 years after. 90 percent of the time if you leave kids to it, they will grow out of it
I agree with you to an extent. However, just because adults can do things which harm themselves, it doesn't mean society should encourage it. We allow tobacco, vaping, drinking, even marijuana in some states now. Just because you are free to indulge these things doesn't mean you should, or that society should encourage their use. On the contrary, we educate people about the negative side effects, we fight the people who advertise these products to get kids addicted, and we have huge warning labels about the possible injuries. The way things are now, even the adults who elect to undergo hormone therapy or surgery aren't being properly educated about the long term costs of the procedures. Let alone adults, even kids as young as in kindergarten are being lied to on a fundamental level about what it means to be human.
@@qarl8176often? Definitely not always. And TRAs are trying to get investigating thr possibility the person is disturbed or deluded as “conversion therapy”.
No minor is able to meaningfully condense to having irreversible treatments and operations etc
I grew up in a liberal family in the north east. None of them support what's going on with trans ideology. This is also true of my peer group which is all left leaning. The ideas around trans women in sports and under age surgery for minors are not popular here on the left outside of activists. It's just you wouldn't know this if you only watched the mainstream media. Our voices are not amplified, and most are too afraid to speak out as one risks their job in a very real way. It's really alarming how fast the narrative shifted and how most people go along with the punishments for those that speak out or disagree, even though many and even most actually themselves disagree.
If you voted Democrat, is there a safe way for you to contact your representative on this matter? Same question for your family doctor, with whom you should be able to speak confidentially?
Woke and trans ideology are in a battle against freedom of speech. These people are fascistic not liberal. Don't let them claim otherwise. You're a liberal they are not.
I wish it was like that here in the Scotland. The left wing among my age (under 30) believe this shit fully, Only a minority disagree
There in the democratic party between liberals and progressives, and the progressives have the power. I fear the only way to fix it is to splinter and create a new party.
Hence the importance of the stance that Maya Forstater took against her employer, about the relevance of biological sex. Helen Joyce tells her story at 47:40. It was the American headquarters that gave Ms Forstater trouble.
For the first time in my relationships with my grown up, intelligent children I am being seen as a bigot and the irony is that neither of them are trans, I feel so pressured to not even voice my own view for fear it will cause a division in my family and I feel very angry that biology is now on a back burner and is being used to judge my intent and my very personality, I fear it's going to get much worse before it gets better, Great discussion here which I very much enjoyed, thank you.
Sometimes we are called to stand up for reality.your adult children are the problem,do not relent here,your children at best are brainwashed at worst havent a clue.Many are in a similar position as you and thats the purpose,to cause utter chaos to all aspects of society by people who have evil intent.
I truly sympathise with you as I also face this with family and friends. That is why I always listen to these podcasts as they make me stay strong and resolute in my beliefs.
Time to stop calling your children intelligent.
Have a Socratic conversation with them. Ask them questions, let them explain, and in the process hopefully let them discover the inconsistencies in their viewpoints themselves. Don't take a harsh, judgemental stance from the getgo.
For inspiration, you could take a look at the work of Peter Boghossian, e.g. his "Street Epistemology" at Berkeley University.
@@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bsi second this
I self-identified as a millionaire last week. Imagine my surprise when I went to the bank, asked for 10'000 pounds, and they refused me!
Nice whataboutism
Maybe if I identify as Aboriginal I can qualify for affirmative action?
😂
The bank must be staffed by bigots 😂😂😂
@@MonkeyDIvanYou should look up the definition of words before using them. You wouldn’t embarrass yourself so thoroughly 😂
The aggressive attacks against anyone who dares question (not outright deny) the claims of trans activists is incredibly disturbing. There are frequently threats, harassment, doxing, attempts to damage or destroy people's livelihood, and also actual acts of violence. I understand that its a sensitive topic but none of this is OK. It has resulted in an atmosphere of fear and hostility, and has in many cases turned neutral parties against the trans movement. I don't think this is the way forward for these people. Open discussion must be allowed to happen, no matter how uncomfortable it is for the affected parties.
This sounds truly horrible. But I've heard several horrible stories in this discussion which have turned out to be not true - so sadly I must remain skeptical of all claims. Can you cite some examples of violence committed against those who have questioned the science of gender affirming care?
I hope you understand - when you make claims like that and then don't back them up, it reinforces the belief that these claims are fiction. So far in these comments I've seen no fewer than five people make horrible claims like this, only to see them disproved.
@@qarl8176you have a fair point . From my part, just in the last week I had an exchange on FB which has left me a bit shaken, as in worried for the future. I commented positively on a girl's comment about gender roles being social constructs . As a 57yo woman of very liberal views, i said yes, indeed they are purely socio-cultural constructs, unlike genders, which are biological. Within seconds, another user self identifying as a trans male (biological female) sent me out of the blue a super long super aggressive litany of insults, calling me in capital letters a BIGOT, IGNORANT, an enemy of the trans community and a dangerous individual. In the meantime i exchanged some polite comments with otber young users. I responded politely to the trans activist, explaining my lifelong support to LGBTQ people but at the same time making some scientific points and highlighting the plight of young, permanently mutilated and sterilized detransitioners who were failed by a system that should have had better safeguards in place. Oh my god, he vomited another super long litany of ideologised propaganda,calling me all sorts of names and concluding I am a danger and an enemy to the trans community , that the community doesn t want me 😂 and I should crawl back into whatever "tartarus encrusted crack I had crawled out of". Yes. He was so off the mark on all counts, and so triggered, i did not respond. But eventually i did offer an olive branch, explaining that we had in fact similar views on some of the points he was shouting abouts , and surely we could build bridges and not end the conversation on such a horrible note. So again, I calmly and politely made my points, trying to clear the misunderstandings and also calling him out on a couple of bullshit claims( he was talking about monosomy and trisomy like they had anytbing to do with sex not being a binary thing). I truly wished him a long, happy and fulfilled life, and assured him that I would not engage further. He then onge again responded aggressively calling me a complete ignorant, a propagandist of the far right , Trumpist and fundamentalist christian side. I mean, I am even an ateis😂t, for fxxxx sake😂 that's it. I did not engage further. I feel sad for these angry young people blinded by ideology and totally incapable of real debate and civil disagreement. The future is bleak.
Well yeah, Disturbing.Sure but this is common on the left and has been for probably your entire life.
The only difference now it's not just the right that's getting treated this way.
Thank you Dr. Dawkins for this amazing interview. I absolutely appreciated your guest and her points and agree with you. Lots of respect to you both. ❤
Who is Dr. Dawkins? 😛
@@mTsp4ce Basically people who never went to university like to pretend that they respect academia by adding celebrity academics' titles to the front of their heroes' names. They think it's respectful, but it just singles them out people who have never set foot inside a university.
It's fucking cringe.
Dawkins does have a doctorate though, just in case you were unaware. Hence, Dr. Dawkins, regardless of how sycophantic and fawning it sounds.
You'll see the same fawning behavior in the comments sections of any Dawkins or Tyson video. Hell, even that clown Jordan Peterson's comments are full of this fawning bullshit.
OMG I LOVE YOU DOCTOR PETERSON. YOU ARE SO SANE AND RATIONAL....
@@Welcome2TheInternet Thanks. Yes, I am aware that he has a doctorate, he also is a Professor though, so it would be more appropriate to call him Prof. Dawkins.
Richard Dawkins has his own podcast channel ??? Frankly speaking best thing for humanity,
What a time to be alive .
This interview should be mandatory at all sites of education, it is absolute common sense and reality. Two brilliant people of our time
Just watching this again. It truly flabbergasts me that we are even having this conversation. It’s utterly preposterous and the legal argument (against Maya) that facts do not override a belief is beyond disturbing. Great interview Richard and thank you for your tireless work Helen❤
Love you Richard and Helen for speaking sense against this nonsense. This is a conversation I will watch again every few years, I think.
It's a strawman. The entire time he's conflating sex and gender. When a biologically born male who is trans, they are not saying they are now a biologically female (changing chromosomes is just a technological limitation for now, and not to mention women with vaginas can be born with XY chromosomes regardless), all they are saying is they are feeling consonance with that sex which is all gender is. It is completely biologically based, as the brain/ mind is physiological. There is no female/ male brain, just a brain. And there's no treatment outside gender affirmation. Why cannot definitions adapt? How would you define a chair? Because you could sit on anything. Someone losing their genitalia to cancer doesn't make them less of that sex/gender.
@@archangelarielle262 Define 'gender'. Many see it as just a pile of regressive stereotypes that we spent the last few decades trying to abolish, or at least reduce the importance of. The conflation of sex and gender comes from the trans activists. They say it's about 'gender' (expectations/stereotypes/performance) and downplay the significance of diagnosable health conditions (gender dysphoria/body dysmorphia), but then demand drugs, major surgery, and to be treated as the opposite *sex* in situations where sex really does matter, rather than just be accepted and respected as a gender non-conformer. Encouraging kids to be gender-nonconforming is great, but telling them that they can actually change sex, encouraging them to seek medical transition, and to become obsessed with 'identity' is terrible. But a lot of it is now political, isnt it?, It's about recruiting for a political movement, not about the best outcomes for those kids.
@@archangelarielle262You make the crucial point yourself: At present, going to the hospital to have one's chromosomes changed -- that is, in every cell of one's body -- is not an option ... and won't be for a ve-e-ry long time ... probably never will be.
And yet, in our times, "gender affirmative care" is suggest-sold by authority figures and institutions to impressionable young people and their parents, as if this torturous procedure would transform a person into a member of the opposite sex.
@archangelarielle262 There is a female/male brain actually. Lmao. Nice fantasy. Reality disagrees. There is zero evidence for the existence of your fantasy. You will never be able to swap chromosomes. End of.
@archangelarielle262 You are a delusional cultist. I will never change my language to accommodate deluded 21st century cults. You cannot change gender, ever. There is no such thing as "gender affirmation" that's just called delusion.
Brilliant conversation by two wonderful people. Thank you Helen for the work you’re doing. You are absolutely right, this is a generation defining battle.
Why is it a "generation defining battle" when it affects so few people? Does it affect you?
@@craigjones9372 The push to redefine sex in law to a metaphysical belief affects a lot of people, actually. You're watching Dawkins, you'd reasonably object if any other metaphysical belief became the basis for laws.
@@LightSpell28 "The push to redefine sex in law to a metaphysical belief affects a lot of people, actually."
Citation please. Who is pushing what and where?
"...you'd reasonably object if any other metaphysical belief became the basis for laws."
You aren't going to sneak in any lies about me. I have in no way endorsed any enshrinement into law of any nonsense that you haven't even defined.
@@craigjones9372 look up all the countries that have gender self-id. gender identity shouldnt trump sex, they should both have some separate legal status.
@@craigjones9372 nice trivialising there. Women are 52% of the planet. 25% of the world’s population are male children.
Helen has x2 Post Doctoral degrees in Higher Mathematics, you obviously don’t hve basic school arithmetic let alone mathematics or statistics.
I like to think of the transgender ideology as a quick fix. If you're a man who has a feminine personality, changing your gender seems like a quick fix, but quick fixes don't work in the long term. I think the better option is simply embracing your personality for who you are. You're most likely homosexual.
I think the terms feminine or masculine itself is problematic because people use it in a different way it doesn't have a specific definition. For example sometimes people say it's feminine because it looks like a typical woman but at the same time people also use it to describe someone feminine because they are submissive ( which is Sexism) or for being more gentle or elegant and call someone masculine just for being bold or dominant. This is nothing but sexism. A male is a man and a female is a woman and then they have their own personalities.
Exactly. People have to be comfortable with the fact that there are effeminate men and masculine women. They are valid and you have to embrace your personality as it is. It is difficult but it is worth it staying true to who you are rather than wanting the quick fix through surgery
Not true. I know trans women who are definitely heterosexual. No doubt about it.
@@lizzieh5284 you are deluded
@@deolihp so every trans person is really gay. They are in denial. Some I have met are in denial but not every single one.
*Really enjoyed listening to Helen and I've noticed much of the coercion she speaks of on TikTok. The whole 'love bombing' thing with followers and gifts for one. I've never really spoken out about anything in my 57 years but I feel that this is a topic that I don't want to be silent on for fear of being complicit.*
I see many comments, but I don't see many adress a simple and clearly stated issue: This whole comversation and debate attacks womens rights! Everyone talks about trans rights, but no one talks about womens rights, women who are now faced with the possibility of being in the same space with a MALE, whatever he prefers to call himself!
What happens when what I prefer to call myself is against what you see with your eyes and you know that can function against you as a woman?
Everyone talks about the right of a trans to compete in womens sports, and no one talks about the rights of women to compete fairly against other women.
And it may be too "in your face" and maybe questionable, but "this is a case of men attacking womens rights" is a valid point that needs to be adressed.
See: Oppression Hierarchy. Trans is cast as oppressed and women are cast as (amongst) oppressors in this case. The proponents of this care only about increasing perceived equity, not about fairness or common sense.
Women are the ones that pushed this BS ever since obtaining their "rights"
The _not being able to talk honestly about issues_ started chiefly with feminism and anti-racist rhetoric. That's where Western society got its practice in shutting up (in public discourse) about obvious falsehoods. Trans ideology is now riding in that moat, quite successfully.
You do realise there are trans men as well as trans women?
@@chaelwright8450It’s not relevant to the points mentioned though. Are biological males concerned about a trans man in their changing room? Or competing against them in elite sports? I’d imagine no, not very often.
Thank you for this video. It seems like the whole trans subject is against anyone asking questions. I respect Richard enormously for all of his work.
It would seem that way from this video wouldn't it? Interesting they'll dismiss the answers they get without engaging the subject matter, and go on to insist that the trans community is making claims that they've been told they aren't. It's one thing to disagree that there's this thing called "gender" that is separate from "sex", it's another to talk about people who do see it that way as if they don't either.
It is very sad hearing a detransitioners story, but it's also sad hearing stories of trans people who never had any support. This is serious, but the discussion in this video is not the balanced a reasoned discussion it purports to be. You'd think trans people haven't been around since long before they were born.
Its allways talking about Trans Folks, not whit them. Listen to counterartuments and form an actual Oppinion. They never ever dissagreed whit each other.
Trans Supporter call others Bigot and theres no Equivalent? Im sorry? The Thousands of Republikans calling Trans People Groomers? Rowlings Friend who states she wants to murder Trans People?
Hes not very intellectual Honest.
Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums.
I guess my main point is to question the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive...
With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.
Another way that it resembles a cult.
@@tuffwith2effs899it's never been possible to trans male female or reverse mental facilitation. I've seen it too often. Man at work perpetuates his wife's anxiety by feeding on her mental illness
What a brilliant woman, I look forward to Helens future books and work. Thank you for this breath of fresh air in what sometimes feels like a world gone crazy, and I'm incredibly pleased to hear that for us here in the UK women are protected against this new age doctrine.
I sometimes teach at university in the fine arts in the U.S. and had some students struggle with biological differences when working from the life model. Pelvic differences between the sexes were of particular confusion to a few students; there was a clear regard from these students that I was being intolerant and regressive just by acknowledging the biological difference. One of the students dropped the class. As Ms. Joyce illustrates, it is an odd blindsiding to those of us on the Left (and in my case in the arts) to be intrinsically opposed as intolerant for pointing out something as simple as a difference in pelvic angle.
A non-traditionally aged student in the same class was a parent with a child considering transitioning and chided me for not being sensitive enough. I asked her how we could address the skeleton in a fittingly sensitive manner, and she was at a loss.
my ecology lecturer was doing a workshop on statistics, and when a study came up discussing how male and female differed in height, she said, "This study did not include nonbinary people, unfortunately". When I asked her why did she say that, considering all people are male and female, she lectured me on the phenomenon of intersex and that I should educate myself. She didn't seem to have any idea that nonbinary has nothing to do with disorders of sexual development. A lecturer! And trying to teach stats too. It's just embarrassing.
Do you think because we have removed ourselves from the land, tat we are confused by biology?
The current young generation finds it fashionable to force psychotic delusions on the clueless world that they were born into. At the deepest level it is both a test and a protest against Continued Universal Human Cluelessness. Children find it humorous when adults are too witless to explain reality adequately.
@@balalaika852 As if it was in any way a significant data to begin with🤣
The republican party will appreciate your vote in November. Thank you in advance.
Helen is a gem. Happy to see her on such a wide diversity of podcasts. Its making a difference.
Helen is more than a gem- Ms. Joyce is an absolutely amazing person with the ability to hide her cape impeccably because I’ve yet to see it, but I’m completely certain that, as a superhero, she does wear one.
Ireland has many issues, but this product of the Emerald Isle may be the best export they’ve ever produced, and it’s too bad there’s not a bumper crop.
I agree, she is a superhero.
@@JumpCutThis There is another Superwoman who hails from the Emerald Isle: Psychotherapist Stella O'Malley. Do you know her? If not, you should definitely check out her work.
She has an awesome rack, too.
@@EarthlingEveryman-zv7bs thanks for the tip- I hadn’t heard of her previously but will do so now.
Such a mature, cogent, and genuine conversation. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Yeah, it's weirdly unnerving isn't it? I was thinking "hey, common sense! I remember this:)"
@@Scimaradyes, what, have they been drinking, normal water, they just sound sensible. And correct
They agree on the topic. Why wouldn't this be an easygoing chat?
@@tayler2396 I'd bet that both speakers would still be respectful even if they were speaking with people with whom they disagreed...
Great video. Two reasonable beings who are fighting for society to be aware of reality.
Correction, you mean "two people who both believe the same thing about the same topic".
@@jakeenvelopes9561 here goes mister leftist. Yes mister Open Minded, you see, the sad thing is that the bright minds of this world must come to explain such simple, basic, obvious, normal things, desperately trying to stop this world to transform the delusion into mainstream
Wow, Helen Joyce, take a Bow. you have to be one of the most articulate, learned and Brilliant women alive.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. While Helen Joyce is indeed articulate and has contributed to the discourse on gender issues, it's crucial to consider the full scope and nuances of these topics. For instance, her statement about 'sterilizing children' is not accurate according to medical guidelines. Treatments for gender dysphoria are generally not recommended for children under the age of 16, and even then, they are carefully considered and are reversible in most cases. Misinformation can create unnecessary fear and stigma, so it's important to rely on accurate medical information and ethical guidelines when discussing such sensitive issues.
@@qarl8176 Why are you replying to near every comment as some sort of "expert", when you can't even answer basic questions like defining what a "woman" is, or explaining what you think the difference is between girls and women?
@@ambientjohnny You've been harassing me repeatedly. I am not inclined to answer your questions. I wish you the best.
@@qarl8176So basically she's completely right. At least some children are being sterilized by your own admission, a child being defined in law as anyone under 18 in multiple countries, and it's the definition that Helen has used repeatedly.
What on earth are you talking about? Treatments for gender dysphoria in children are applied as young as 4, beginning with social transition, psychiatric care, then at onset adolescence, puberty blockers, followed up with cross sex hormones and body augmentation, not necessarily in that direct order, as treatment pathways very greatly between countries, and between what kind of institution (private / public) and even the care provider.
The vast majority of patients move on to cross sex hormones, which cause sterility 100% of the time. Marci Bowers, a transgender surgeon of great renown, is quoted as saying "every single child … who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2 is unable". Care providers now recommend freezing of gametes to allow for fertility later in life.
Blockers have been prescribed off label for kids as young as 11. The UK government had to outlaw it just over a year ago and even now there are workarounds - this is as a result of the Kiera Bell case, and they can still be applied to 16 year olds who are legally referred to as "children".
A full treatment pathway, which is started in early adolescence dramatically impacts fertility, and if the full treatment path is concluded, the person will be 100% completely infertile without artificial aid.
You with the absolute gall to accuse others of misinformation, when you're spreading extremely dangerous medical misinformation to others is pure evil. Helen is completely right to say "they are sterilising kids", and now I'm going to laugh at you for moving the goalposts which is what you're about to do. Go for it.
@@eleccy Oh, and, small correction: Helen doesn't say "they are sterilising kids" she says "they are sterilising children".
Thank you SO much, Helen and Richard! ❤
At 25:00 Prof. Dawkins makes the quintessential liberal argument: we can give away pronouns for politeness and kindness and Helen masterfully counters it with the consequences of that action, namely: you're giving away everything else too and we've seen it in practice, it ends with men in women's spaces and destroying women's rights and boundaries. This is a very important hammer counter-argument when debating this.
The way Helen takes the time to slow way down and delineate the direct line from capitulation on the pronoun to more consequential trouble is really awesome.
Sorry but that line of reasoning is called "The slippery slope fallacy". You can do one thing without having to commit to other things. A quick reminder. Gender Dysphoria is real and some people are suffering from it. If I can ease their pain by using a preferred pronoun I will gladly do so.
@@Simchenbut that doesnt mean you need a hormone and surgery to treat it.
@Simchen the slippery slope fallacy occurrs when the imagined escalations don't happen or aren't credible, in the trans case, they have ALL already happened, it's a statement of fact as to what the consequences were of being "polite". Please engage one brain cell if you have it.
@@pankakesnotstellar Exactly - I wanted to write this very thing when I read the charge of the slippery slope from Simchen this morning. Glad someone else got to it. The slippery slope is a fallacy where you DON'T delineate how one thing leads to another, but Joyce does in fact delineate it in excruciating detail and with very forthright, fulsome logic. It is a masterclass in extemporaneous speech. Joyce is a verbal titan. Helen, in this case - not James. ;)
A few years ago, I started looking for a podcast from you, Dr. Dawkins. I'm glad to see you've entered entered the medium. I'm absolutely loving it so far.
This was a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much for taking the time to record this and publish it.
"Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality" and how thoroughly does Helen represent reality.
I loved this conversation. Her beautifully rational, intelligent and absolutely correct arguments are so so needed in these times. thank you.
Indeed, and sad to see how irrational and suscetible to emotional manipulation the supposedly educated "elite" is.
Her arguments are absolutely incorrect. University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?!
It's insanity that some of the greatest minds have to tiptoe around absolute biological facts.
lol watching this is like explaining to my dad how crazy “gender ideology” has become. I’m 33 so this isn’t as shocking to me but seeing older people learn about this reminds me how far we have gotten off track as a society. The “guess” reaction he had is how my dad reacted.
Trans has become a religion
I just found this after getting death threats in my Uni for being a radical feminist and a gender critical.
I really needed this, not feel like "maybe i'm the weird one".
I hope you are not alone but in touch with other gender critical students and people generally, for moral support. The gender ideology cult is deeply misogynist and homophobic, and operates by bullying and silencing. Its verbal violence is becming ever more physical, especially towards women. Hope you stay safe.
What happened? Have you considered legal protection? There are crowdfunding platforms
You’re not the weird one.
Sanity itself is under attack. Strangely uni’s are one of the hardest places to be in now.
@@ThinkTwice-hy5hy7so3j Don't try to legislate our medicine away and you won't get death threats. Continue testifying before Congress and quite frankly, we have no other choice.
Richard Dawkins said these women were brave to speak out.
Prof, so are you. I knew you wouldn't consider keeping quiet seeing such a perversion of science and language. Everybody needs to be brave now.
the trans thing has gotten way out of hand. I can get behind gender dysphoria, or the desire to change one's sex, and even surgeries to do so (although today they are experimental at best); that's all fine. what's not fine is someone thinking that the mere declaration "I am a woman" (or vice versa) trumps the underlying biological reality to the contrary, and then having the audacity to call you a bigot for disagreeing. and this just scratches the surface of all the things wrong with this bizarre ideology.
You don’t understand what a social construct is. Do you believe in lady chickens and gentlemen chickens? Boy dolphins and girl dolphins? Or is male and female separate terms to man and woman? Do you think male cows are men? Female porcupines are ladies? Educate yourself
An absolute amazing brilliant Woman. Breath of fresh air hearing two highly intelligent people speak the truth. This woman is a living hero.
In Christchurch, New Zealand, the local council advertises "Women's Wednesdays" at a swimming pool, promising that women can feel safe, with only female staff and with the blinds closed to prevent peeping Toms. But they say that "All women are welcome, including trans women and people who identify as a woman" - in other words, men, so how safe is that? The world has gone crazy for sure.
They said you can FEEL safe, not BE safe.
If they wanted you to BE safe, men would be welxomed, and it would be leftists banned instead.
What is wrong with a woman who feels “unsafe” swimming with men present? Sounds like an anxiety disorder to me.
@@EASTSIDERIDER707certainly could be. But why not allow them some time to enjoy their swimming with Reduced anxiety?
@@EASTSIDERIDER707 There are examples of full males with intact genitals who are claiming to be trans females and stating they have a right to use female swimming pool change rooms...and are literally exposing themselves to female children and women as well as watching female children and women disrobe into their swim clothes.That is male Voyuerism and male Exhibitionism and paedophilia.
Not all transgender females are genuine trans. They're males who are using wokism to their advantage and a way to get away with their perverse s****l behaviours. They're using the trans label to increase access to their female prey... their victims. It is happening.
And that is why women must have women only venues to protect genuine females of all ages. It is not neuroticism or an anxiety disorder. It is a matter of safety and security for genuine females of all ages.
Sounds like that's based in Islamic culture.
One of the most important and thought-provoking interviews I have had the pleasure of listening to. Two supremely thoughtful and intelligent human beings bringing us the most lucid of conversations. This conversation along with Helen Joyce's book (and Kathleen Stock's book) ought to be required watching/reading for educators, individuals in positions of power, and young people.
I agree that they got around gender and sex as biology, but I wish they would have at the very least touched on the subject of developmental biology.
This is where this issue becomes a real problem to define !
There are males with a brain that resembles a woman's more then a male's, and vs versa with woman, saying that such a people are any specific sex/gender makes litte sense to me.
@@realitymatters8720 its called variation, bro. a man is an adult of the male sex, and brains do not determine sex, sex determines the brain. a man with a brain that overlaps with female brains is just as much of a man as a man with a height that overlaps with female height, and his brain is a male brain that has zero female cells in it.
Thank you, Richard Dawkin, for having the courage to speak out on this topic. Helen Joyce is awesome.
Yes we'll do e Dawkins and Joyce. Great stuff. Good interview. Good people. Good comment.
Helen, sure. Richard, not so much.
Im honestly so happy that Richard and Sam stick to their guns and care about the truth of things in these times. The world could use Hitch.
Hitch🥃
I consider myself extremely fortunate that I was born (a girl) in the 1960s. So being an “Tom boy” was just accepted. Today I would have found myself indoctrinated into thinking I am a male. Just for clarity I am 100% happily a regular female. I just prefer many things that have been considered typically masculine. But I do not identify as a man I am biologically and psychologically, definitely female.
But it is only sheer luck because I was born before this gender madness took hold. Otherwise, I would have been shoehorned into being a trans-person when I am not confused about my gender. My gender expression is just on the preconceived outer limits of female.
In some ways, what is going on today with gender identity, feels like a societal regression. Rather than be able to express our gender in ways that make us comfortable, people are being forced to pick a binary idea of gender. Being put into a box of men only behave this way, females only behave that way. Therefore more feminine males are being told that they are actually female. Likewise more masculine women (like me) are being told that they are actually males!
If biology has taught us anything, it is that organisms do not fit neatly into man made, human defined boxes!!
"It is up to us on the left to walk this thing back. I want liberals to make room for gender diversity -- and that includes masculine girls and feminine boys -- WITHOUT telling them they need to leave their sex category, because they are different."
Lisa Selin Davis,
Author of "Tomboy",
In the trailer for the documentary,
"No Way Back" (2023).
Given the current behaviour of the Democratic Party, this would have to be a long haul project, starting from the grassroots? This would need a new, non compromised, younger generation of politicians in that party?
I’m a guy but damn, me too. Pure luck to be born in the 70’s
I was a Tom boy too and I remember literally crying to my mother saying I wish I was a boy. I was actually in tears. I'm not sure how I actually felt at that moment, whether I literally wanted a penis and to be fully male or whether I just wanted to be one of the boys as my friends were boys. But I'm glad that it wasn't taken seriously because of course I don't actually want to be male. I'm a woman and I know I'm a woman. I have nothing against trans people at all, I'm a live and let live type of person. But I often wonder had I cried about wanting to be a boy in 2023 how would it go down? And how would parents, schools etc have reacted to it? Would they start calling me he/them? I don't know. I totally understand that what I was experiencing probably wasn't feeling trapped in the wrong body, it was different to what actual trans people experience I'm sure. But I do think people's reaction to it now would have been different and possibly could have led me down a path I didn't want to go down. I also cried over the idea of growing breasts so if someone suggested that there was something I could do would I have wanted it? For me personally it was a phase and something I grew out of. This is why I think it's important to maybe wait as long as you can before making such life changing decisions. Be gay, be trans, be a damn space hopper for all I care but I just think it's wise to wait until you're an adult before you make those decisions.
@@lynsey4224
Yes, you might well have been started on puberty blockers nowadays !!!
It's a scary thought.
@@lynsey4224 same here!
Dear Professor Dawkins, please have a chat with biologist *Marie-Luise Vollbrecht* : her talk was cancelled at Humboldt(!) University in Berlin because of the topic about the biology of XX and XY chromosomes. She was even hunted by the public service media and discredited as a transphobic "Fish biologist".
Thank you 🌺
Chromosomes aren’t the only things determining sex and gender. It’s a lot more complicated that we learned in grade school.
There are cases where two fertilized eggs fuse and the fetus can develop with some tissues with XX chromosomes and some with XY chromosomes. It is difficult to test for since it involves tissue sampling from the involved organs and we don’t know which those are. It is probably much more common than realized because it is only diagnosed when testing for something like maternity/paternity. There are cases where women were told that they were not their children’s mother because the genes in the ovaries were different from those tested in the blood or saliva. It would be interesting to see if some trans people are chimeric and the brain has different genes than the rest of the body.
People don’t know how rare this is because it is not tested for. It could certainly account for many cases where people were transgender. Bigot's definition of what is normal and what is not is flawed. Who gave you the right to say that just because XX and XY are in the majority then anything else is an aberration. Using that logic, anyone with blue eyes is not normal. Or anyone who is gay or Jewish. Eugenics is a scary thing. I have given an example of a normal variant where the cells in the brain could be XX and those in the rest of the body XY. Did people notice that a large number of the XX/XY chimeras functioned normally as men or women, including normal fertility?
There are things I’d like to postpone for a kid until their legal age for them to decide for themselves:
Circumcision, tattoos, piercings, gender change. I don’t want to take responsibility for irreversible changes during my time of care.
Well then you can't have children. The way you raise your child has infinitely more impact on their later life than a tattoo.
And funnily enough, gender affirming care is just about that.
Actual surgery is super fucking rare, mostly it's puberty blockers so they can make a permanent choice when they are older.
Well, it kind of makes sense 🙂
Big difference between tattoos and sex change...
But yes i tend to agree.
However, your view has been annihilated by woke marxism out there in the real world. Whatever jurisdictions have a lot of activists, they have tended to cave in.
My prediction is that non-radical people (ie non woke people) will reorganize away from radical woke.
America has the advantage of charter schools etc but in places like UK and Australia we have no choice. Once public institutions fall to woke, theres nowhere else to go that is affordable.
In the UK you can’t get a tattoo until your 18 but a child can change their gender and in Scotland this can be kept a secret between the teacher and child.
@@CZcamsBrowser-vh5eehow so
Thank you Helen for being the voice of common sense. Please keep up this very important good work
Very nice interview, I've seen you both often talk about this topic in other venues, but this one was extremely relaxed, and Helen gave some pieces of information I hadn't heard before. ❤
I knew it, brilliant conversation. Thank you Richard, thank you Helen. Cheers.
Thank you! Wonderful, clear conversation.
Wow. Brillient, succinct and thorough. WTF are people thinking.
This was just wonderful. A civilised conversation about reality and science between two knowledgeable, wise and courageous people.
Thank you both - it was, and is, a necessary and important conversation. 💐
Congratulations Prof. Dawkins for defending logic, reality - and innocent children. Some of your colleagues, eager to follow current trends, should take notice.
@@La_Monde More projection from a groupthink cult. Religion really doesn't change its spots, huh?
Like Neil Degrass Tyson
like Matt Dillahunty. All of a sudden observed evidence goes out the window.
@@zilchnilton Dillahunty is not a "colleague" of Dawkins - they aren't even on the same level. I think a closer comparison to Dillahunty would be TheAmazingAtheist.
This podcast gives me so much hope 🙏🏻🙏🏻
Dawkins is a human treasure! I love you so much! This is the first I've heard Helen and I have a crush on her mind. Thank you kindly.
There are so many atheists who fail to bring their skeptical rigor on this issue. I'm glad to see Dawkins display some semblance of reason.
About 7 years ago i saw a video on youtube, Rebecca Reilly-Cooper's talk to Coventry Skeptics. Its really good and also has a q&a video. It sucks how much the skeptic community dropped the ball on this one.
Unfortunately, atheism isn't an inoculation against irrational beliefs or even religiosity, as this nonsense has proved.
@@Lycaerix Sad but true, but what I really lament is not just atheists per se, but the disappointments of those who make a big verbal deal about active, conscious, skepticism, and yet....
Honestly they've been sticking their heads in the sand since it became obvious atheism is a darwin award.
Matt, we’re talking to you….
Thank you for being pillars of sanity and reason in this insane and unreasonable time we live in.
Gender has always been a role. Eunuchs were a third gender in certain societies. Gender absolutely is a spectrum; its merely how you represent. Is there literally anything to argue with there? Because genuinely, every counter to that I've seen is totally schizophrenic or a etymology fallacy. What's your 0.02$?
@@alexlink4623 there is no suck spectrum anywhere except in the inferior intellects of deranged individuals perpetually victims of their own existential and identity crisis. I pity such individuals, but in no circumstances I take them seriously.
@@alexlink4623 Richard Dawkins is right, JKR is right, the GT movement is right, Lia Thomas is a man, a man can never be a woman no matter how he may identify. End of the story.
@@Rothko0281 If you would call a male a woman in any circumstance, that is wrong. You would; gender is not sex. You are either a bigot or slow.
@@Rothko0281100% agree.
I will definitely keep a close eye on Helen’s work.
University of Washington found that gender affirming care reduces suicide rate by 73% and depression by 60% in trans youth, and plenty of other studies have produced similar results, yet this woman claims there is no evidence that care prevents suicide?!
Such a joy to listen to this conversation between two such intelligent and articulate people. Thank you, Helen and Richard, very much indeed.
I hated my body as a child. I wanted to crawl out of my skin. I had my period at 11 and breasts by 12. I had an eating disorder by 13. And still I felt ugly & boyish. I never recall wanting to be a boy. But it took me decades to appreciate my curves and to defeat anorexia. Having grown up in a tiny town in N Michigan, I am so grateful that I was not exposed to gender identity or who knows what could have happened to me. 😮
Thank you for sharing. ❤
we all go through it but i am white gay man(bith) whose trans love my body now , we all have different journeys , hormones wont hurt most kids , everyone should chill trans panic is a fabrication created , its propaganda using the few narcissistic youth on tiktok, to represent a small group amongst a small group lol its sad , distracting us from real issues
It interests me why you went this way around puberty and beyond. What were the causes?
Did you have people around you giving negative feedback about how you look? Were your family critical? Did you want to have a partner and they rejected you?
I have had my own experiences back around puberty, eg having a total crush, and being gently pushed away (mercifully)...i look back of course and see we were so young it was silly, too young to marry, sex wouldve been a bad idea etc.
As you say "im so grateful...or who know could have happened to me..." . Lucky things were different back then.
I learned alot from this, and relieved I'm not turning into a right wing bigot.
Good point, Richard Dawkins and Helen, are both intelligent educated highly moral enlightened centre left people. And the fact they can say it's ok to say biological sex exists, and has consequences, helps suppress the bigoted hateful Orwellian tra agenda that claims biological sex does not exist,
@@lsmith6036 I’m a left handed spigot, it’s not an onerous position 🙂
Best commentary on this subject that I've found. Would encourage people that aren't sure about this issue to invest the time. Thank you both!
I'm very happy to see Richard Dawkins doing a podcast, it will be exciting to see who else he will have discussions with on this platform.
I want Rebecca Reilly-Cooper on! Her talk to Coventry Skeptics on this subject was great, its a shame most of the skeptic movement won't touch this. That video is on youtube with a q&a, and is 7 years old or something.
This was an amazing discussion with two of my favourite intellectuals, thank you. I was a primary school teacher for almost twenty five years. I got out before this lunacy came my way, I’m afraid I could never have gone along with this madness, nor could I have tolerated the younger teachers talking to me as if I was a bigot.
The meeting of two brilliant minds. Wonderful, thought-provoking discussion.
Thank you both for voicing some of my innermost thoughts. Among my group of politically left-leaning friends I cannot voice my opinions (which are very much aligned to yours) as I am straight accused of right wing thinking. It's very, very frustrating!
I hate this SO much! It makes me think these people (I am surrounded by them in my company) are only paying lip service to caring about women.
Have you ever considered that they might be right? That said, a shame if they won't engage properly
@@topwomble Such extreme black and white thinking cannot be right, it's ridiculous, and even more "funny" how it shows an utter and complete lack of perceiving any nuance at all, yet the people who engage in that type of behaviour frequently accuse others of failing to grasp nuance, such textbook projection.
I am in the same position. One person's opinions seem to rule the rest and I have been literally shut down by some just because they were worried I might disagree with that person. They all have multiple degrees and are more articulate than I (who only have a bachelor's) but seemingly discussion is only allowed if you agree with the group!
@@topwombleThe problem is that those people never consider that THEY might be wrong
Death threats, rape threats, graphic violence and explicit porn, all sent to my naive self in 2019 for telling a man he wasn’t a woman. The thought of a man like that having sanctioned access to my, my daughter’s and my granddaughter’s toilets etc makes my blood curdle. Thank you, both of you, for not only the erudition to speak out on this, but the bravery.
The irony is that a normal woman wouldn't make rape threats. That is a male thing to do. (I know not all males would make those threats, but women as a rule do not tend to)
Maybe you deserved it for your own invalidating behaviour you vile creature! If you address trans woman as sir then you are guilty of text-book misogyny and psychological violence according to Council of Europe on Gender Matters, which states and I quote: «All forms of violence have a psychological aspect, since the main aim of being violent or abusive is to hurt the integrity and dignity of another person. Apart from this, there are certain forms of violence which take place using methods which cannot be placed in other categories, and which therefore can be said to achieve psychological violence in a ‘pure’ form. This includes isolation or confinement, withholding information, disinformation, and threatening behaviour. In the private sphere, psychological violence includes threatening conduct which lacks physical violence or verbal elements, for example, actions that refer to former acts of violence, or purposeful ignorance and neglect of another person. One common example of such violence in the public sphere includes the isolation of young women or men who do not act according to traditional gender roles. Isolation in the public sphere is most often used by peer groups, but responsible adults - such as teachers and sports coaches - can also be perpetrators. Most typically, isolation means exclusion from certain group activities. It can also include intimidation, in a similar fashion to psychological abuse in the private sphere." Interesting how most bigoted psychopaths seem to be constantly self projecting their own sickness and misogyny while pointing finger at others. Let's see how an adult reacts to invalidation that has been abused this way often on a daily basis since childhood by being forced into being what they are not, literally their life being turned against itself - which is what the definition of abuse is actually about and forced into puberty to furthermore mutilate/deform their body. The evil is deeply embedded in ignorance. Bigotry begins where other people’s dignity and right to exist ends, the truth is it is bullies like you who have blood on their hands, because using correct pronouns especially for children has been confirmed by the majority of medical and psychiatric institutions as suicide prevention! Please seek psychological help yourself before causing more harm and damage towards others around you!
@@bluesteakmanflesh131 That is because you are ignorant of what is going on here, these threats are not real threats like when men do it because they truly mean it, they are done out of anger and desperation to push their fears they already have of them because they see them as men and feel afraid they might rape them. It is usually a payback for the humiliation they have experienced by them. Time to look in the mirror first! Because then you will see who is the REAL aggressor here and who initiated the abuse through radical dehumanization and devaluation of their dignity as human beings. You would not be able to cope with the level of abuse they are experiencing almost on a daily basis, so please do us a favor and shut up.
@@hanziumterra Are you saying it is right to act like this even if we were abused this way? I am not saying that I disagree, I think what you are saying is more correct and true to reality, cause trans women are not raping anyone, they are not making threats to innocent people, this is more like typical revenge thing, but because we've been abused it does not excuse us from causing more abuse ourselves.
@@Arabella868 No not at all, I dont excuse their behaviour. I am just trying to show why that is happening, that it is not because they are men, but because they rather make fun of their abusers this way. Not all trans women are like this, but look at the pattern here how these people use these incidences to portray all trans women like this as if they are a cult that share the same behaviour or beliefs, as if being trans was a belief itself anyway.
This is superb! Clarity in madness. Many thanks to Richard and Helen.
Yet, I find it odd that someone like Dawkins, who has amassed an untold wealth of knowledge of empirical and theoretical research on biology and evolution, frames this discussion in such an un-nuanced and un-scientific way by advocating that the immense diversity of human sexuality, (behaviours, experiences, and identities) can be adequately or appropriately, (or usefully) described by a binary categorization... Isn't he the one who said "Nature abhors a category"?!? For example, at minute 3:10 he mentions gamete size and chromosomes (weirdly not mentioning penises and vaginas)... what about the vast assemblage of interacting influences amongst an individual's biochemistry, physiology, emotional states, the complex web of our minds/psychology, developmental learning/enculturation, etc., etc. which evolution continues to shape and influence over millenia? Human sexuality occurs along a mutlitude of axes and spectrums., surely Dawkins should be the first to admit this?
What is the value of focussing discussions of sexuality on a binary category? Scientific knowledge of sexual differences in relation to medicine/disease and behaviour/psychology must of course largely cleave to these distinctions (and the individuals and professionals involved by and large do), but that's it! In the realm of our intimate and formal social relationships, institutions, and cultures, science can only provide one kind of understanding, while art and communcation to share our lived experiences provides a much broader and comprehensive avenue to develop a shared understanding of what it means to be human and how to thrive...
With all respect to Dawkins (and the visible and invisible minorities who are affected by public policy and public mis-apprehesions concerning gender identity), the inflamatory, inflating, and conflating discussions that constitute "gender wars", and which grips media channels, political discussions, and the public sphere are like a form of madness. Much like mask wearing was in relation to the covid pandemic, where one falls on gender identity has become a flag and signal of tribal affiliation, rather than a multi-faceted issue to be discussed using our hearts, minds (and ears). Thus, I wish I could beseech Dawkins to reflect on which individual and social harms he is hoping to mitigate in engaging in this way with these issues, and which harms he is inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating in both out broader society, and in relation to a persecuted minority.
Splendidly lucid conversation, thank you.
Well done Richard and helen for confirming biological men and biological women exist.
dont let the minorities represent us trans who dont identify as the opposite sex, im gay a man and trans but in my culture we do say GIIIRL to everyone lol just like surfer guys call everyone DUUDE! light heartedness is a necessity too
You will never find a queer theorist who disagrees with this. Sex is largely binary. But gender is the construct. They are different things. Bucks fuck each other all the time because it feels good. But they only impregnate does. They don't think of themselves as gay when they're banging other bucks. It just feels awesome without needing any distinction. And central to this conversation is this very thing. It's funny how these two talk about it being a literary phenomenon. Because that is the point! This thing that is happening culturally is a realization of how much language is both a prison and a key to the door. And Dawkins of ALL people is acting as a warden simply because he has a gift for describing the walls of the jail and the ridges in each key.
I'm straight and I'm old. I also am open to learning and what I have learned with reluctance is that the writers and thinkers behind queer theory have more to offer in the use of language than pretty much anybody out there.
@@baitandtacklegender is the sex of a life form. Sorry to upset your private theory
@@baitandtackle Queer theory is a horrid area of 'scholarship'. One of the cultural marxisms.
It questions and attacks dominant sexuality and sex systems merely because they are dominant, not because they are bad.
Oh, you needed someone with authority to tell you? How do you think you got here in the first place?
Great interview. Please have Helen Joyce back again, and also Kathleen Stock, Kara Dansky, Debra Soh, Abigail Shrier, Joanna Williams, Andrew Doyle, Colin Wright and others who are standing up against this regressive lunacy. And thank you for adding your own voice.
Don't forget Graham Linehan!
And Miriam Grossman!
If you enjoyed this, as I did, thought I'd add this for those who're interested:
Reading list:
Hags by @glosswitch
Material Girls by @Docstockk
Defending Women's Spaces by @K_IngalaSmith
Time to Think by @hannahsbee
Irreversible Damage @AbigailShrier
The Abolition of Sex @KDansky
The End of the World Is Flat @simonjedge
Unpacking Queer Politics” (2003), by Sheila Jeffreys, which critiques female-to-male transsexualism as capitulation to misogyny.
Sheila Jeffreys’s released “Gender Hurts: A Feminist Analysis of the Politics of Transgenderism.”
@Serena_Partrick had an excellent list going too.
💜🤍💚🙏
And Bill Burr.
@@simonhadley8829😂😂😂
Thank you Richard, please keep up the conversation and fight, this really does matter.
Helen joyce is inspiring.
Her open disgust is very attractive.
Fantastic! Thank you so much. I'm just a 60 year old openly gay man. It's horrible what's happening to these children who do the puberty blockers, cross hormones, etc. Thank you again for this great informative discussion.
A man goes into female changing rooms, strips off and has a good look at all the women there - the police are called. A man decides he's a female that day, goes goes into female changing rooms, strips off and has a good look at all the women there - stunning and brave.
I love that Dawkins is standing ground on this
He didn't before.
@@calstonjew I didn't either until I learned more about it. I thought it was all about bring accepting. The trans ideologists weaponized our innate decency against us.
Cuz he’s a white man and not Jewish like Harris or a black like Tyson.
@@calstonjewHe is now, get a grip.
bill Maher supports the GC side, thankfully, and he is Jewish, and chapelle is black, he is a leading us pro jk Rowling view fellow
Just such a fantastic, measured, adult conversation to listen to. Two very serious people doing serious work and I thank them both. I learnt a lot from this.
She is brilliant. So lucid and intelligent. Thank you.
Thank you R. Dawkins for speaking and making it freely available to listen to . I have read and enjoyed so many of your books, absolutely brilliant
I'm so glad he's making videos again!!!
@@phillipdean9830 absolutely. Now this might sound a bit off, but he is getting older and we need his mind to produce as much as possible to be handed down to the generations to come 😬 That being said, I hope he lives a long long happy life
@@theblackrainbow1 🤮
It is so refreshing to see how two people discuss things in a peaceful way.
Yep. It's just a shame they both already agree with each other. If they disagreed and remained civil it would have inspired some hope.
A great discussion and totally in touch with reality where in this day and age it seems to be a crime to speak the truth. Thank you both so much.
Helen Joyce does a very good job of keeping calm and holding back her anger, but you can tell the anger is there, and that it is strong, as it should be.
This comment is my spirit animal.
Women are asked to welcome a man into their changing room to be nice and to keep him safe. If a man in a dress is not safe in the mens bathroom, then thats a problem for all the men to solve. Men need to make it safe for men presenting any way at all to use their spaces. It is not womens' responsibility to make that accomodation!
Beautifully said! Thank you.
Fantastic point. Thanks for laying this one out.
Fantastic comment!! 🥳
Exactly. Women are not a shield for male on male violence.
its the biblical story of sodom and gomorrah playing out in real life - throwing the women out be raped, in order to save some precious men from it.
I Love Dawkins ❤️
Me too.
People call him a conservative and even alt right now. It's so ridiculous.
@@nickaslanidis6156 because people have lost their minds!
Dawkins is the single most rational person I've come across. His arguments are precise and whenever he approaches a territory that he doesn't have sufficient knowledge of, he doesn't pretend- he says it like it is and admits that he'll have to read about it.
I admire him for his sincerity and good intent in any and all argumentations he ever had.
It saddens me that he's getting older and that I will probably never get to meet and thank him in person for influencing my personality the way he did.
@OldTimer16s i understand, I've been reading his books since the early 90s. This is not a topic he's ignorant of, this is area of expertise and people should listen to him.
@@nickaslanidis6156 that is true! It is a matter of simple sixth grade biology
Content like this is really needed as of today. I study something art related in college and I'm fed up by most of my classmates because of the obsession of having to be LGTBQ(...) or else you are considered bad, boring or worse. There doesn't seem to be anymore consideration about the products of the mind, be it science or art, the only thing that seems to be important for this kind of people is your genre, sexuality and little more.
Keep strong! ❤
From Monty Python “The Life of Brian”:
FRANCIS: Why are you always on about women, Stan?
STAN: I want to be one.
REG: What?
STAN: I want to be a woman. From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.
REG: What?!
LORETTA: It's my right as a man.
JUDITH: Well, why do you want to be Loretta, Stan?
LORETTA: I want to have babies.
REG: You want to have babies?!
LORETTA: It's every man's right to have babies if he wants them.
REG: But... you can't have babies.
LORETTA: Don't you oppress me.
REG: I'm not oppressing you, Stan. You haven't got a womb! Where's the foetus going to gestate?! You going to keep it in a box?!
LORETTA: crying
JUDITH: Here! I-- I've got an idea. Suppose you agree that he can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans', but that he can have the right to have babies.
FRANCIS: Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother. Sister. Sorry.
REG: What's the point?
FRANCIS: What?
REG: What's the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can't have babies?!
FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality.
…………
The movie is from 1979. This goes on for some time now.
You're both brilliant. Thank you for this refreshingly candid and REAL discussion.
I loved this podcast. Two very eloquent talkers on this topic.
The idea that any child at two years old knows it is in the wrong body is nonsense.A two year old can barely figure out how to use the potty. It can't even dress itself, never mind know whether the clothes are the right gender or not. As for me I am going to college to train how to be a gender assigner.
Autogynophilia . It’s a condition, or kink, where a man becomes sexually aroused at the thought of, or acting out being a woman.
What about us whom aren't turned on by the idea of being feminine. Like, I'm turned on by respectful people that kiss well. That's about it.
I'm an absolute leftist here. I 100% agree with you here. Feminist. Anti-stereotype.
I’m also a leftist from birth but I was forced to write right handed 😂
Defeats the object of being a left winger 🙄
@@KianJ2003 Did you tell that to people who voted for Biden, whose administration approved a multi-billion weapons deal with Saudi Arabia, a country which punishes lgbtq by death? I hope you don't consider such people left wing. Democrats are a right wing neoliberal party, no less, no more right wing than the Republicans, they agree on 99% of important issues.
@@KianJ2003such a sad narrow minded view!
@@rocoe9019 nope.
So nice to have an intelligent discussion of this issue.
Asking exactly the right questions. Thank you!
I am very progressive leftwing, and I totally agree science should be the answer.
There are two arguments that are making me a hardliner too:
1) I will only acknowledge gender if someone can give me a hypothesis that can be tested like: "Women generally live longer than man". We can do it with sex, meaning sex is something well defined and real. As long as I can not make a similar prediction with gender identity, it just doesn't have any value. It is like introducing a new variable "fluppywup" and saying: "I'm fluppywup bananamilshake" so you have to call me mr Banana. If you can't make predictions with it, a variable is worthless.
2) If they can not even define the word woman other than: "A woman is someone who identifies as a woman, who identifies as a woman, who identifies as a ..." You have a problem as well. This is a circular definition. And if you can not define a word, DON'T FUCKING USE IT.
Hmmm. Well first, on your #1the statistic that women on average live longer than men does not lead to longer life distinguishing all women from all men, so I'm not sure what your point is. Also, in matters of trans people, we're talking about psychological makeup, so a more apt example would be perhaps that women tend to favor a cooperative relationship with peers, while men are more likely to be competitive. It might well turn out that trans women and trans men fit those same profiles. These are variables that can be measured quite tractably, if less sharply categorical than "has certain organ or not".
On your #2 point, I understand you to be expressing frustration over lack of clarity of language obstructing clarity of thought. Sure. But I think that's somewhat the caricature version of the story getting in the way of taking seriously the trans person's experience -- of profound discomfort making their way in life as their original gender, and much better fit as the opposite gender. Maybe the words are a mess, maybe we need new words. The lack of right words, and people getting mad about the sideshows, doesn't make the plight of trans people illegitimate.
@graham_Wiseman
You can create new words and change the meaning of words but you can't change sexes. This is the reality we all live in but it doesn't diminish the reality that trans people suffer psychologically, and we should all recognize their plight and find ways to reduce their suffering.
@@caronadams4486 "You can create new words and change the meaning of words but you can't change sexes."
You can't change your gamete production and you can't change your chromosomes. But, that's NOT what trans-gendered people want.
1) Gender is a social construct. Do you know what that is?
2) A woman is someone who adheres more so to feminine social roles, presentation, and expectations, than masculine ones. Not very difficult.
@@smaakjeksI do not adhere to any social expectations or stereotypes I'd the feminine. Am I a man?
Terrific interview with intelligent clear thinking and 'knowing' people. Thank you.