mono green yeva won a tournament lets talk about that and what sandbagging is
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- čas přidán 18. 04. 2022
- Mono green Yeva won a tournament KaOs in the Nexus! Now this is not a deck tech. More of a, let's talk about Yeva and what it is allbout. In fact this video is more about flash hulk and sandbaging. But also a bit about cEDH metagame. Its true metagame.
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The deck that won: www.moxfield.com/decks/HOGbL-...
Inkmoth Version: www.moxfield.com/decks/UVHIY6...
#mtgcommander #cedh #edhgameplay - Hry
If anyone talks against sandbagging or any other strategy just remember the prime purpose of cEDH is to play the optimal play to win. You can't argue sandbagging isn't the optimal play when the result is the win.
I really love these discussions. I think it really helps me learn more about the game and interactions with players and archetypes. Thank you!
Yeva is perhaps the most underrated mono green commander. I used to play her as my commander and it was pretty busted! Throw in Seedborn Muse and you've always got something to play.
There's a Yeva player in my local meta and if I've learned anything it's the longer the game goes, Yeva's odds of wining increase dramatically. Would rather play against Selvala or Yisan any day of the week.
I’m a huge sandbagger so this is news to me. Hell, I even sandbag in casual cus it’s simply the smart thing to do. I really didn’t expect there to be discord on this subject.
And this, my friend, is why you're the best Cedh channel out there
Yeah I remeber you like these kinds of videos.
"Nah, I'm going to let the blue players handle it. Pass." - every non-blue player in cedh.
It's a viable strategy but being aware of sandbagging and players likely to do it, adds another layer to the game. I've had a friend pass priority when he had a counterspell when someone was going for the game knowing there is someone who likes to sandbag at the table next in priority. If prizes aren't on the line, sometime you just have to send a message.
I don’t understand why people are so upset about sandbagging, like the point of the game is to win, if you sandbag into a win then you simply played your cards/interaction better than your opponents imo…
after a good couple year break from cedh (and mtg in general) its really nice to come back to awesome and interesting content like this. Thank you cedh tv!
Your welcome. You came back to a really interesting era of cEDH.
The moment you mentioned tales end you gave me flashbacks to how I lost a tournament to trickbind :D
The discussion of pod composition is invaluable. Sometimes you've got awful matchups, and you have to vastly change your strategy and mulligans to account for those decks and turn order. This slight change in mentality and behavior can greatly increase win rates, and is a fun nuance in our slice of EDH.
I think you presented this topic really clearly and effectively and it was really interesting. I also like that you chose yourself to be Player 3 because you already are in the bottom-right corner of the screen so that you describing the scenario didn't get confusing!
haha. In the real game I was actually at player 1 position.
I really enjoy these type of videos. Well-edited game play is always enjoyable (obviously on your other channel now). But discussing abstract ideas like this about the game is something I love to learn more about because it will make me an even better player.
I especially enjoyed your suggestion around "forcing" players to interact. I will try it out in the future. Unfortunately, turn order dictates a lot of that sometimes :/. But thats just part of the game we love :).
I've found that attacking players directly, and calling out players who choose to sandbag is another way to force interaction. Pressuring their life total lets them know that they do not have time to sit and wait.
Cool video. You always have topics on your channel that are next level when it comes to mtg.
wow thank you.
I think sandbagging should of course be allowed because the point of cEDH is to be competitive commander meaning that anything that follows the rules (including rule 0) is allowed, I believe that lying is automatically banned in cEDH rule 0, but holding back interaction is all part of the game
I love your space travel background!
A lot of content lately, keep it up buddy, love your stuff 💪
There is so much to talk about. So many new cards and so crazy things that are happening in the format. Like mono red and mono green have won tournaments. WHAT IS GOING ON!!! So cool. And so much to do :)
Great discussion. I can see people getting salty for sitting at a table of sandbaggers. I think the game will solve itself though. Even Consult/Thassa is a rather silly type of winning a game, but people get used to it and learn how to adjust. The only issue is if someone doesn't want to actually work through it and think it through.
Yeah. I have been in situations where I wanna explain how we should/could teamwork agienst something and people simply don't wanna listen or talk. Just play. Then it is hard.
Very cool topic. I love my sandbags!
Grand Abolisher: "I exist."
Great video! I enjoyed it a lot.
Great video! Very informative.
Id love to see a video on your opinion of the top attrition commanders!
Ultimate sandbag card: telepathy
Liked and subscribed due to valuable content 👍
Thank you and welcome to the channel.
I'm actually a player that personally really loves sandbagging, or the underlying concept behind it/janky combos/winning at instant speed or in unexepected ways. Something about holding off on going for it and letting someone else go for it first winning over the top/instead of them is extremely enjoyable. Sometimes you sandbag and sometimes you just go for it YOLO most of the sandbag decks are often given the opportunity to go off first, but if nobody has played anything flashy and everyone has full grips then the best play for the sandbag deck is to wait for resources to be used before you go for it unless you're absolutely confident its safe to do so because going for it is often the point of no return. I think Magda clockwork combo is the same in red as yeva is in green right? Narumeha is/was the same in blue. You have just enough interaction to make other peoples lives harder, often in the form of staxx that doesn't affect your gameplan. I definetly do not think that sandbagging is particularly fun to play against for everyone, however personally I love learning about all the different threats in the format and never mind losing especially if I can learn how a deck works/what they're trying to do as a result of watching the other player go off. Sandbagging can be the most egregious when there are two sandbag decks at the same table, or one sandback deck and a staxx deck that doesn't effect their gameplan that they can use to protect their own win. Whichever sandbagger has less patience will generally try to go off first and eat up all the interaction (depending on what turn it is) and then the second sandbagger will win as a result, same in the case of heavy staxx. Sandbagging can be like, tricking someone else into kingmaking you without them knowing. Ultimately cedh is a game without a second place, so you should be doing everything in your power to win the game including trickery, shenanigans and maybe a little tomfoolery.
Heyo! Love the content, really interesting conversation. I've been playing Yeva for over 2 years now and out of most videos trying to explain what Yeva is or how she wins and such, you've got it the closest out of everybody. However I was curious if you'd ever consider inviting Inkmoth or another experienced Pilot to talk about the deck? No other channel has done that and because it is such a complicated deck I feel having input on someone who is actually experienced with the deck would be invaluable to understand the deck and the philosophies around it. Might be some more fun content, thanks!
So this was not intended to be a deck tech. I wanned to cover this in a good manner. I actually spoke with TOMtg about this deck before I made the video. But we could make a deck tech video in the future. But I felt that I needed to explain this first myself and get it right.
yay game theory!~
Happy to read people wanna watch that.
Yeah, Tom! Way to be!
I can't believe Mons would spoil Game of Thrones like that :P
More seriously though, I love discussions like this about the "meta strategies." A lot of times when people discuss strategy, it feels more for 1v1 and basically everything is a flowchart of "if A then B" and "if B then C" and so on. There is a problem with that kind of flowchart strategies in that sometimes it reaches a dead end, and all options lose. What you just described added a whole new dimension to strategy and makes it possible to find ways out of those flowchart loops or dead-ends. TBH I have reached gamestates like you described before (where one player could win, but if I try to stop them someone else would win), and my brain just shuts down from overload trying to figure out a way out of that cycle LOL.
I so agree with you here. The best thing is also that the flow chart isn't A -B. It's just in so many different dimensions.
Sandbagging is exactly why I don’t understand how no one is talking about Oskar; as long as you have a discard outlet you can sandbag anything you want, and in dimir no less. You can hold your tutors until the precise moment you need and then go off on top of someone with exactly the cards you need. Not to mention how insane he is with artificers intuition.
That's what Im building rn. Doomsday at Instant Speed, are you kidding me? I think Winng at Instant Speed is what should be looked at more. Magda can do this as well. Gitrog with Crown as well.
Oskar isin't an obvious "good" card. Commanders that aren't card advantage or combo are hard to evaluate. My Vadrik deck was doing offly well online and I wasn't sure why. Maybe I need to delve into this topic deeper
Recently got the secret lair with plans to build around yeva as a commander. My usual groups tend to be far more casual but I came to a similar conclusion when looking at Yeva. Ramp and sit on mana till I'm ready to go off and flash in death-touchers if anybody attempts to take advantage of a relatively open board
Fantastic
My personal take on it is: if you can't win, counter; if you can win, sandbag.
I'd say that individuals that oppose sandbagging probably needs to be better at threat assessment
yes you need to know or suspect people I would rather say.
Very nice vid
Hey y'all! First a comment about the video topic, sandbagging is something I've just begun accepting, as passing prio on someone's wincon when I could stop it is always a gamble - yet as long as I'm the person directly after the player trying to win, I've (so far) always been able to pass on prio and someone else has had interaction. Interaction is so crucial to CEDH(Especially as I play Codie and people mull FOR interaction). Secondly, is anyone aware of a discord for Codie, Vociferous Codex in the same way there is for other CEDH commanders?
Edit for minor grammar fixing
Great, I came to see the Yeva deck and now I'm leaving thinking about the monopoly meta game, thanks Mons
I like your solution. You reveal a card, but prolong a hand you would otherwise lose. Maybe you draw a windfall and wheel away your problems :)
I like your idea of showing your card. It's a pretty interesting solution.
Sandbagging is pretty inherent in cEDH. Someone has been drawing a bunch from a blue enchantment? You bet I'm going to pass priority on things.
There is an argument to bring threatening into the equation. Like saying if you don't show me your hand (to show you have no instant speed win), I'm going to save my Counterspell.
I have actually done that. Literally done exactly that. "Prove to me that your not a threat so I can counter this without the need to worry about you".
Really interesting video. I mean, really.
Happy to hear that!
And so player 3 and 4 come to an agreement and hold up their interaction for player 1 (Yeva). Player 1 shrugs and plays Allosaurus Shepherd.
-Directed by Robert B. Weide
i have always enjoyed your content whenever i watch it here and there, but i was wondering if sandbagging is the meta then why don't more players use telepathy? wouldn't that basically nullify the sandbag strategy?
Honestly. They probobly should.
I want to ask according to the acual rule of MTG (not the rule 0)
Are we allow to show our hand to the oppornent ?
yes you are. They have a small segment where MTG say that nothing prevents you from shwoing your hand but why should you?
Anybody criticizing Mons' style doesn't know what they're talking about. I dislike deal-making where people try to extract a promise of passive turns, that seems too greedy and usually sours the negotiations. Wishy washy dictation of future play patters is not even comparable to allowing someone to adjust their play to a "more correct" line based on increased information.
You just brought casual politics into cEDH. I love it.
There is more politics then people belive in cEDH.
TomMTG did not brew this list, Inkmoth did
I know.
The person before you in turn order is presenting a win, you have the win on your turn if no one can stop you. You reveal a counter spell that will save the game and then pass priority demanding that the next two players use resources to start another round of priority (even if it doesn't address the threat). You could keep doing this until everyone is out of interaction. It's just extorting the whole table. Your other two opponents are forced into king making. They can either pass priority on the win on the stack or get rid of all their interaction and lose the game to you on the next turn. Are your opponents obligated to prolong the game, on the chance that you might not win on your turn? Can you ask them to reveal their hand so you don't pass priority one too many times? Would it be correct for your opponents to agree to reveal their hands because they know that player 1 will certainly win without your intervention?
This is a situation that has been talked about a bunch. It is also kinda illegal to do this in tournament setting. You could get disqualified. It is actually a subject that deservs its own video.
@@cedhtv Interesting! Is it usually against tournament specific rules or is it part of the general rules?
Players 3-4 hold plenty of power here, enough to refute the demands of player 2. Worst case they get to choose who wins. Why would they opt for player 2 who is attempting to extort them? Best case they reject player 2’s demands forcing their use of the counterspell without concession. I believe it unlikely that player 2 would resign to their demise when knowing players 3 and 4 were unable to stop player 1.
Interesting prisoner's dilemma! Not interacting is bad when no one after you can interact (you lose the game), but not interacting is good when someone after you can interact (you drain opponents' resources while preserving your own).
This is only true for cEDH btw. In casual EDH (esp low to midpower) your opponents are less likely to have interaction, and the benefit of saving resources while draining resources is less impactful. So sandbagging is much less effective from a winrate perspective, even before accounting for social dynamics.
Social dynamics often being, "You could have interacted and didn't? That upsets me! If I had interaction I would have used it, so you should too!"
And with the notable caveat that social dynamics (fun) can pressure the other way too - if the game has dragged on for three hours in casual EDH, maybe it's time to let someone win.
The word you're looking for is metacall
I am wondering if you know it is an actual Game of Thrones cardgame than can be played in 4 people pods as cEDH…
It exist and is very good as well
I have heard of it. Never played it tho.
No interaction leads to faster games. I'm down for sandbagging strats.
Emergence zone is suuuuper underrated. I saw it's potential from its release.
Golos was the master of sandbagging. Ramp, tutor for Ad Naus, cast Golos searching for Boseiju. Sit back and wait for someone to go after a win. Cast an uncountable Ad Naus on top of someone else's win condition. RIP big guy.
13:25 Not sure why Player 4 would stop Player 2's counterspell if it is stopping Player 1's card. I think you may have mixed the steps up a bit. But I understand what it is you are trying to convey.
Player 4 is planning to place his game-winning spells & effects at the top of the stack, above Player 1's game-winning spell & effects. Player 2 has one counterspell to stop Player 4, but Player 4 has one counterspell of his own to stop Player 2's counterspell.
However, Player 4 is not prepared to stop a counterspell from Player 3. Player 3 makes it known to Player 4 that he has a counterspell (Force of Will in this case) for Player 4. P4 is told that if he were to try winning, P3 would stop his attempt, and P1's spell currently on the stack would resolve and lead to P1 winning. P3 leverages this scenario to make P4 use the card he was saving for P2 be used to stop P1 instead, because he (P3) is holding onto Force of Will and passing priority (and the burden of handling P1's win attempt) to P4. Not wanting to lose the game, P4 is forced to use his counterspell against P1. P3 stopped P4 from sandbagging, and sandbagged his own Force of Will.
Great politicking, I'd say. :) I think this is easy to understand for players involved in the game, but difficult to explain to someone else because of how many steps there are to the situation.
I dont play cedh. I normally watch an research it so I know when I'm getting to close to it. But your whole strategy on how to deal with a sand bagger is kinda how I try play in general.
My fiance hates it cause she says I play mind games. I keep telling her that's how i play. I attack my opponents mind, not the deck. If i can keep your head fogged up you question your hand and how to use it while my head is clear.
Yeva is a very sneaky list to play against. I used to play it a fair amount. I found it’s main strength is that it’s not worth the effort for opponents to learn your lines so they can stop you because the deck is so insanely complex. I feel like this complexity, and the fact that the deck isn’t seen often enough to warrant everyone learning their combos (compare to Krark Saka where everyone has had to adapt or lose) are what makes the deck successful.
I actually think that if this was a popular deck it wouldn’t see anywhere near this much success. The unknown factor is huge, especially in tournaments. I won’t say whether or not I think the deck is bad or good but I will say that once my regular playgroup learned how to beat Yeva I basically never won again.
Once your playgroup learns how to beat Yeva, is when you actually started playing her. Any game before that point was just a tutorial on the basics of Yeva.
The deck is so layered that playing with people who know the deck as your opponents actually adds potential advantages. A lot of the nuances and subtlety is lost on the players who don’t know the deck. Everything is surface level. But when your opponents know the deck intimately there is the push and pull tension of players attempting
To distinguish which of the various lines you are on and as a skilled pilot you are able to manipulate those perceptions . One of the most rewarding decks to pilot there is.
My yisan list BRC, drew a lot of inspiration from this play style and the Inkmoth list specifically
Whilst you said what is true about sandbagging, it will just create a situation where the last player in priority will just go well I aint being priority bullied (as in last player in priority is expected to react since first 2 sandbagged their resources) and go GG guys.
I have actually seen people do that. I think it is ok. I woulden't mind if someone did that in a game honestly.
@@cedhtv I was in a situation where I was playing Elsha and had an aetherflux reservoir loaded with one shot (like 54 life). The guy before me was a Pakko + Haldon deck threatening to take me out. The guy before him was a Hinata deck threatening to combo and win. I knew if I shot the hinata deck I’d die on the crack back from pakko. So I politic’d into a deal with Pakko to swing at the fourth player instead for one turn if I remove the hinata player. He refused trying to bully me into king making him since the fourth player was out the game. I refused and Hinata won. Sometimes it happens. Choices and decisions are made. Just don’t take it personally afterwards. My goal was to win. So was his
@@cedhtv Oh I have no issue at all with it. Im just saying this might come up more often as people are sandbagging more and then the penny will drop when their 'plan' to make the person after them dealing it doesnt go their way. Ive seen people try to reset priority after they pass and then the person after them passes... its like nope you greeded and now you get punished :p
first, i dont see any problem with sandbagging. its a legit strategy with the goal to win yourself. now i pilot yisan and marwyn but how did yeva won at instant speed? green win by making infinite mana and bouncing creatures up and down if you flash a creature it wouldnt have haste regardless.
Yeva wins by looping Kogla to kill everyone's creatures and activating Shaman of the Pact which is given haste by Destiny Spinner or drawing everyone out with Mikokoro/Geier Reach with Endurance Loops. Once Yeva has Infinite mana and an outlet, it is very hard to stop it.
@@mattstone8873 this in response to Thessa trigger?
@@rhozpogi Yes, once you have the right pieces and infinite mana, you can win the game on the stack. If you opt for the Mikokoro/Geier Reach line, you should be doing this under a Veil of Summer/Autumn's Veil. Some lines also use the Destiny Spinner Activate Land into Creature with "Trample" and "Haste" + Return of the Wildspeaker/Eternal Witness/Temur Sabertooth loop + Ram Through/Eternal Witness/Temur Sabertooth loop. If opponent doesn’t have a creature with Ram Through, give them one with a Beast Within.
@@chansamu From what I'm seeing the most recent version of the list by Inkmoth on Moxfield cut the ram through lines.
Is this yeva deck capacble of winning in an opponents turn? I only see infinite mana and finale of devastation.
It's built to win at instant speed, using shaman of the forgotten way (given haste) or infinite land untaps+geir reach to mill your opponents out (under veil)
Mana bullying is a thing I have resently learned about. At first I thought it was bad, but maybe it's a good response to sand bagging.
Here is how it works:
In a 4 player cedh game, where everyone wants to win, players A,B,C,D are playing in that order and player A is going to win with some combo. B has has a counterspell, and reveals it, passes priority. C has nothing, so passes to D. D has nothing, but doesn't want to lose the game, so taps a land, activates an ability or casts some random instant. This resets priority and gives B another shot at stopping A from winning. B can abuse this fact to make D burn through all their lands, and activated abilities. (Hopefully D doesn't have a sac or discard outlet). Once D has been exhausted, B can then bully C into burning through all their resources the same way before finally stopping A.
I also think a similar concept comes up with the card chain of vapor. If played correctly, sometimes it's bounce 6 things, destroy 5 lands.
Person who blame others that did not interact is just a buthurt guy.
Problem is if everyone sandbags no progress is ever made. Same reason ppl don't like turtling in sports or camping in fighting/shooting games.
So yeah cedh is garbage because sandbagging is optimal. Ppl don't like being reminded of that.
Your example sucks because player 4 went for a win when he should have draw-passed like everyone else. Like you started the problem by framing it as P1 can't be stopped and then magically it became P1 can be stopped by my counterspell.
If you don't like sandbagging then you might not like CEDH correct.
I find your strategy against sandbagging really interesting, but couldn’t it be considered kingmaking? If player 4 goes for it anyway and you counter their counter, player 1 wins by default. I guess in this case though player 4 would be in the wrong, because they caused all of this
Also I don’t really understand how you would get priority before player 4. Is it because it’s actually player one’s turn (APNAP)?
It was alittle confusing since it wasn’t edited, I didn’t really understand it well.
But it’s not kingmaking since your stopping the first person who is trying to win.
You got priority before player 4 because in that scenario Player 2 was the one casting the spell.
But that was a very specific example it doesn’t happen.
@@entertainmentinc9735 ok thanks, I thought that every time a spell is played, the priority gets back to the player whose turn it is
Ok I read a bit more about this and priority gets back to the active player every time a spell or trigger resolves. In that case, nothing resolved, so priority still goes around the table
I really don’t like sandbagging, because, what happens if everyone plays sandbagging in cEDH, if every pod is 4 people playing decks&sangbagging style? Turbo Adnauseum always wins?…
You know. It could theoreticly happen that an adnaseaum resolve even tho everyone has counterspells ready but no one interacts because everyone is just to greedy!
The politics of the game are my least favorite part of cEDH. A game that allows charismatic players to essentially “king make” themselves is problematic and not one I enjoy.
nothing wrong with that. My girlfriend would agree with you. She covers her ears when people try to politics with her in EDH.
@@cedhtv I don’t mind the table helping each other make optimal plays and help each other with threat assessment. It’s the deal making and “if you do x for me I will do y for you” kind of stuff that I’m personally not a fan of.
This deck is just yisan but replaced with yeva
I feel like that discredits the deck and the thoughts put behind it. While they can be similar (because their all 1c in green with the same 'must have' cards) both decks approach a different direction.
most green decks look like that
it is just the best green has to offer in most cases
The biggest difference is how it's piloted, rather than the cards (which are just the best green cards). So it plays completely differently to Yisan, because everything is reactive.
That’s pretty inaccurate .
Yeva is built to leverage her ability in the command zone .
Of course a lot of the mono green All stars are present , but it balances the inclusion of creatures spells with desired effects on board (which In this list are instants), draw engines ( which yisan cares very little about ), disruptive elements , and tutors.
The combos in Yeva layer heavily and while yisan focuses on putting together specific elements via verse targets ( known information to the table ) combined with tutors.
Yeva has the unique position in that it plays these elements out of hand and potentially during other players turns granting pseudo haste to creatures that need to tap for mana for your combos .
Yes yisan can do this via a verse , but that verse is public info and skilled players can anticipate targets
Always felt bad and like a total let down when a sand bagger wins a game because it often feels like they did not have to work for the win that they got wile the other 3 players in the pod are having an epic shoot out oftentimes with a player thats the archenemy they often dont even build a board state so it looks like there draw going because they lack mana in some way or interaction and then boom out of no were i win ,the most annoying part about it the other 2 players are locked into dealing with the archenemy player because if they dont deal with them everyone else loses, im sure there are ways to maybe pass turn inorder to force the sand bagger to spend interaction but they often dont have what is needed in hand at the time.