Has JWST found supermassive DARK MATTER stars?
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
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A research paper was published this month that claims to have found evidence for the existence of supermassive dark stars in the early Universe using JWST data. A clump of gas powered by dark matter annihilation which can grow to a million times more massive than the Sun and outshine an entire galaxy. But are these objects really “dark stars” or are they just galaxies like we expect?
Ilie, Paulin & Freese (2023; evidence for supermassive dark stars in JWST data) - arxiv.org/pdf/2304.01173.pdf
Freese et al. (2008; hypothesis of dark stars first proposed) - arxiv.org/pdf/0806.0617.pdf
Spolyar et al. (2009; dark star evolution history) - arxiv.org/pdf/0903.3070.pdf
Freese et al. (2010; are dark stars detectable with JWST?) - arxiv.org/pdf/1002.2233.pdf
Ilie et al. (2012; estimating how many dark stars would JWST find if they exist) - arxiv.org/pdf/1110.6202.pdf
Curtis-Lake et al. (2023; distant galaxies in JWST data found with spectra for first time) - arxiv.org/pdf/2212.04568.pdf
Fermi-LAT collaboration (2013; search for dark matter annihilation signals) - arxiv.org/pdf/1305.5597.pdf
Tomlinson & Shull (2000; population III stars and their effects on reionization) - iopscience.iop.org/article/10...
Schaerer & Pelló (2002; expected properties of population III stars) - link.springer.com/article/10....
Rydberg et al. (2013; how would we detect Population III stars with JWST?) - arxiv.org/pdf/1206.0007.pdf
Maiolino et al. (2023; claim of population III star detection in JWST data, not yet peer reviewed) - arxiv.org/pdf/2306.00953.pdf
00:00 - Introduction
01:20 - What is a supermassive dark matter star?
02:06 - What is dark matter annihilation?
04:15 - How do these dark matter stars become supermassive?
06:25 - Ground News AD
07:57 - What does the light look like from a supermassive dark star? How do you find one?
10:17 - The objects first identified as galaxies in JWST data
11:54 - The evidence from JWST data for supermassive dark stars
13:00 - Why we care: REIONIZATION and Population III stars
15:06 - Is an analysis of the JWST spectra coming next?
16:17 - The other problems in astrophysics this would solve
17:12 - Outro
17:48 - BLOOPERS
Video filmed on a Sony ⍺7 IV
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👩🏽💻 I'm Dr. Becky Smethurst, an astrophysicist at the University of Oxford (Christ Church). I love making videos about science with an unnatural level of enthusiasm. I like to focus on how we know things, not just what we know. And especially, the things we still don't know. If you've ever wondered about something in space and couldn't find an answer online - you can ask me! My day job is to do research into how supermassive black holes can affect the galaxies that they live in. In particular, I look at whether the energy output from the disk of material orbiting around a growing supermassive black hole can stop a galaxy from forming stars.
drbecky.uk.com
rebeccasmethurst.co.uk - Věda a technologie
Go to ground.news/drbecky for the latest science news. Sign up or subscribe through my link before Sept 1, 2023 for 30% off unlimited access to get reliable information all in one place.
Science is about what's testable variable measurable . Not source's source's are theology and comicon on an IP
It's legitimately a great service, cheaper and more open than 'X'
How come we do not know anything about dark matter but then somehow we know it collapses to form dark stars but not dark black holes??
Could one of these hypothetical dark stars have planets around them? And, more importantly, would the energy of the dark matter anihilation be capable of creating an habitable zone?
@drbecky you are a highly-trusted member of the community and I was honestly caught a bit off-guard with this ad as it is very relevant and, if your statements about it are supported, would be vital for consuming news. I'm a little skeptical as a news source with that sort of information would be potentially ripe for exploitation. Are you sure you are happy to support this app? If so, you've likely converted someone.
Just finished reading your book, and I love how you explore these weird ideas without really giving them undue credence. This video is another example of that. One of my favorites is the potential that Planet 9 is actually a primordial black hole. For someone that's not a scientist but is obsessed with science anyway, those weird ideas are the most fun part of learning for me, even if they're eventually disproven.
I'm sold. I'll read the book next.
Shame on Einstein...
I just finished listening to it and I agree I love the idea planet 9 is a black hole!
I don't buy the woowoo scifi fantasy notion of some wandering mini black hole in the outskirts of the solar system. Seems a waste of research capabilities and resources and brainpower while so much effort and energy was spent demoting the fascinating historical ninth planet, Pluto! Due to imposed definition parameter technicalities, by vote. Like kids dropping their old toy so they can grab this brand new shiny toy! While putting down balking at this demotion as undue sentimental attachment. Meanwhile, they say, let us present you with our fantasy scifi woowoo theory! Nobody has yet to present to public a cogent case for this elusive black hole. It's mystical fantasy meets scifi (which I love so much) but double standards hypocrisy much? Prove to a reasonable degree the possibility (less than probability, even) of a ooh rogue black hole "planet 9" and $100 is yours, any proponent. One or two corroborating major physics institutions (MIT, Oxford, ivy, Perimeter etc etc) to back you up then! Otherwise, it's essentially bunk man of la mancha Don Quixote chasing windmills but not questioned because academia papers....ugh. just bunk science!
Wtf?
And a big thanks to Dr Becky to explaining why this paper is:
-speculative
-serious
-needs a follow-up
-interesting
Thanks again, Dr Becky, for your wonderful videos, and your good work in general!
There will certainly be follow up, and hopefully not too far away. I can see why they published when they did, though. If they're right, it's the stuff that careers are made from, perhaps even Nobel Laureate-worthy. Definitely worth a punt.
Well, that's how you do science. Some people get a result. Other people try duplicating it. Even more other people discuss the result. And everyone reaches a conclusion. Compare that with people getting a result, then having their funding withdrawn, receiving threats from their faculty, being investigated by multiple government agencies, having their social media accounts blocked, and being ridiculed by ignorant journalists all over TV and social media.
There are follow-ups to earlier papers from this group, refuting the claims. In short, the annihilation cross section needed is already ruled out by other observations/models. Check out the papers authored by Sofia Sievertsson from Stockholm University. Her coauthor and supervisor used to work with the group making this claim but now he is of an other opinion to say the least.
@@perandersson1244 And the science continues. Some people are saying the idea of dark stars is too crazy to be true, but we've been here before, with pulsars and quasars to name but two crazy when found objects.
Sure, on balance, it's more likely not to be supermassive dark stars, but it's certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.
I think the "interesting" part goes without saying; this is an astronomy paper.
I think I'm on team dark star, they do seem to explain a lot. Rapid formation of supermassive black holes. And possibly even SMBH mergers due to dynamical friction from the large leftover dark matter halos. But we'll have to wait for a lot more observational evidence.
That’s nice. But I see it as a copout. these things are clearly galaxies. That means we must retrace and remodel. But that’s always such a hassle, even if it is reality lol. It would indeed be nice and soothing if these things were magically dark stars. But again it’s not what they are.
@@kylebushnell2601 Wow, you should write a paper proving it then because you seem so certain, and if you don't have the evidence or data then your comment is idiotic and unscientific.
Just finished listening to your audiobook. Fascinating. I wish I had teachers back in the day that could put across information as well as you do. Congratulations.
I got my Dr Becky JWST T shirt today. I'm actually blown away with the attention to detail! I thought it would just be a bunch of goldish hexagons, but the detail of the refraction pattern, and wee galaxies and stars among the mirrors are truly amazing!
I'm not a twitterite, so can't share the image on there, but thanks for creating such an amazing channel, and actual great merch.
I'm so geeking out that the galaxies are shown as red shifted, but given a white core. ❤️
With their model for the supermassive dark stars being potentially brighter than most galaxies, it does make sense to look for such stars specifically between the most distant detections, because many of the most distant galaxies might not be bright enough to be seen, weeding out a lot of non-candidates for their theory. So I have to give em that they were clever about that part.
I was thinking of Good Omens when you started talking about the universe becoming transparent, and lo and behold, you had the same thought! Can't believe my favourite science channel referenced my favourite fictional media! :D
I personally love this explanation for the formation of the first SMBH's. It makes sense in every way. Let's hope more evidence is found.
Thanks for this great and informative video 👍🏻
Any mention of a Dark Star also triggers me to remember that very movie by John Carpenter, even if absolutely unrelated here.
One of the very few space movies shown on the BBC when I was a kid. (It was a long time ago!)
You are my go-to source for coverage of the newest cosmology chatter, so was hoping you would get to this one soon. Thanks. Although the whole idea of supermassive dark stars really excites me, your skepticism seems well founded at this stage. The best fit lines leave quite a bit to be explained before taking them as real. In at least one plot there are a couple of points that are far enough off the fitted line that they really weaken any relationship. As you say of the spectrum plots, there could be plenty of unexplained features in the noise. I hope this group puts out more comprehensive papers soon.
... "that's got to be fake!" Yeah, you basically capture about 99% of the CZcams channels that pop up when you search 'JWST.' Had me rollin 😅
I listened to an hour long video the other day. There was a 5 min snippet at the end about JWST, that didn’t even touch on the clickbait title.
@@JamesonNichols lol that sums up the experience I had when I first started watching those channels. Now I literally only watch this channel, anton petrov, and the astrophysics girl for any space related news or studies.
"If it sounds too good to be true..." and "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and all that. Then again, it would be great for the scientists if they did find a DM star. Would be awesome!
I love the idea of dark matter stars potentially explaining how supermassive black holes could have formed so early in the universe.
loving the idea as well! watched this hypothesis for the first time on Anton's channel :)
It seems a bit less simple than the Population I stars explanation, but it's still a very satisfying explanation.
Have to be millions of them so why we not seeing them?
Because they’re actually galaxies and main stream scientists hate retracing and having to figure out things they don’t understand.
God is made of dark matter and when we discover it, we'll discover God and finally locate hunter Bidens laptop.
This is the first of your videos that I've watched. Excellent presentation of information. Your voice is wonderful and understandable. I love the bloopers, too.
Excellent video (again) and paperback? Was waiting for that..
Read all 3 of your books and just signed up for Ground News. Thanks so much for your: coverage of current news, recommendations and of course the discount.🙂
Thank you for your support!
Thanks for making this video.
It was again a lot of information in such a short time.
I've survived it.
Again thanks.
if true, that dark stars are responsible for supermassive black holes, I wonder if that would have anything to do with dark matter nowadays being mostly in halos around galaxies instead of clumped in the middle. like a sponge in a puddle about to freeze over
If dark matter existed and gave off radiation through annihilation, I don't see why we'd have to look billions of years in the past to find it. Where's the radiation in the galactic halo?
@@asusmctablet9180 From my understanding, the radiation is here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_Center_GeV_excess
Huh? Where did you get the idea that dark matter is mostly in halos _around_ galaxies? Dark matter also is in the center of galaxies, and is even more dense there than around galaxies, according to essentially all models I'm aware of.
@@asusmctablet9180 Err, she talked about the in the video, about 3:23 to 4:15.
@@bjornfeuerbacher5514 PBS Spacetime made a video about this topic and he said dark matter is in halos around galaxies but I don't think he said mostly
Very much appreciate the special video for this! And love the shout-out for Muse, I was thinking the same thing this whole time 😂
Loved the video as always, my favorite astrophysicist. Also love the blue nail polish :)
Great summary. Hope DS work continues. Thanks for sharing.
Another great episode, thank you. Will there be a JWST update to your book?
DR. becky your videos are great ,It would be cool if subtitle is included🙏
Dr Becky your video are awesome keep them coming!
Like,Muchas ideas, así se vislumbra la realidad, que sea cual sea es impresionante, sigo el canal, gracias al Dr.Becky 😊
I get so excited when you post ❤
Interesting discussion about this surprising claim. You do a great job of explaining astrophysics for a range of audience backgrounds. Providing the context about the group that published this is an important part of the story and you cover that well.
I have your amazing book now and its much easier to read than I was expecting! I suspect that I will need to frequently dip in and out of it in order to quote some of the amazing facts to my grand kids. I just wish that astrophysics was as exciting in the late 60s - early 70s as it is now!
Very informative. Thank you Dr. Becky!
Words cant describe how much i appreciate tgat your name is Becky. Whwnever i see one of your videos i always go "Its Dr. BECKY!" Which without fail makes me think immediately of my sister, Rebecca , who very recently recieved her doctorate in naturopathy. She currently lives across the country (British Columbia to Toronto Canada) so your videos are always a prompt to think about one of the most important people in my life ❤
Oh my heavens Dr. Smethurst, my Dobsonian 10" just arrived yesterday! Only took 30 min to set up and my first views of the craters of the moon was just awe inspiring last night!
Still waiting on my camera attachment. When I start taking pics I will try to link to you (still gotta figure that out.)
Thank you for being such a wonderful educator and sharing your love of science. You have helped opened a whole universe of sights for me to explore (along with the neighborhood snooks squad.) The kids were so full of questions and we found two other novice astronomy fans in our neighborhood!
You rock!❤❤❤
Small feedback contribution: Decided to buy your book based on the plug. Love the content and the link was effective. Thanks for doing what you do!
I'm with you. When I saw another youtube video reporting on this I thought it was clickbait. This is pretty incredible!
Thank you so much. Absolutely love your videos even if a lot of stuff is over my head
Go to ground.news/drbecky for the latest science news. Sign up or subscribe through my link before Sept 1, 2023 for 30% off unlimited access to get reliable information all in one place.
It's interesting to note that the Ilie, Paulin, and Freese paper was published in PNAS as a Contributed article. PNAS is rather unique in that there are two different tracks for submitting an article: One is the typical route ("Direct" submission), but the second is specific to members of the National Academies, termed a "Contributed" article. Some have criticized this second route as being a way for NAS members to push through lower-quality articles without as much criticism, since (with some limits) the NAS member can select their own reviewers. That's not to say the study is wrong or that there's anything nefarious at play, just that the paper deserves a bit more scrutiny than usual.
Love getting the latest Astro news from Dr Becky
"Supermassive Dark Stars, a hypothetical type of star that's powered by dark matter, than can outshine an entire galaxy."
{David Tennant stares into camera}
{Cut to _Doctor Who_ title sequence}
I've been searching the comments for a comment like this after that good omens clip 😅
"...and the Master is about to use it to blow up the entire galaxy!"
7:30 That's so true Becky, glad you're courageous enough to bring that up!
Good stuff. You’re the only person I’ve heard even entertain this debate.
I love your posts, thank you.
Just got your book in an audio format. My eyes aren't great these days. Looking forward to listening to you describe your own work 😊
When I heard dark star though my kind jumped to the movie Darkstar by John Carpenter (he of The Thing, Escape from New York, Big Trouble in Little China and so many more) from 1975. Dark satire comedy about a ship crew blowing up rogue planets. Worth the 90 minutes if you can find it.
Kind of expected dr Becky to already be a proponent of dark stars, considering she har written about how hard it seems to grow black holes to be super massive.
It is still very early research and as she said if they have done the analysis on spectral data she would have been more convinced. So needs follow up research for more solid evidence.
My favorite part of Ms. Beckys book was all the similarities between it and Stephen Hawkings, "A brief history time".
Mildly disappointed that "Dark Star" by the Grateful Dead wasn't the song sung at the end.
Another great video Dr. Becky!!!
Been watching for some time and it seems like the approach of using imaging data vs spectra comes up quite often. Seems like spectroscopy should be the default? Anywho, if you are looking for more video ideas two have been on my mind recently:
- history of spectroscopy/how a spectrograph actually works
- measurement, & uncertainty: what are the common things you measure as an astronomer and how do you put error bars on things? how do you actually go from the signal data to the pretty graphs in the papers
Thanks so much for your great videos & insight!
Thank you Dr Becky, you're my go to guide for peeps here in CapeTown thank you just referred your paperback to 🇬🇧 peeps ❤
It is exiting to see such new ideas and hypothesis for things we don't understand about the Universe. It owuld be nice to know everything about our Universe, but at the same time, i would be boring. It is amazing to live in a time of possible big discoveries!
the transition in and out of the ad was impeccable ngl 😂😂🔥💯
Thanks Dr. This is one of those headlines I would have dismissed out of hand if it didn't have your name on it. Thanks for your insights. I feel very fortunate to have people with your expertise giving back to the community.
👍👍 seeing weird stuff in peer review is always exciting 😄!
Paperback out on the 21st !!!! Just in time for me birthday !!!!! That'll make it easier for Mrs Bob to get me a gift that I'll actually like hahaha. Thanks Dr Becky.
great video! love your channel
Cool video and cant wait for the book! :)
I soooo need an update on this 😍🤩
(Edit) I miss Patrick Moore, can I adopt you instead?
Really interesting Becky. I study astronomy and just finished the certificate of higher education but taking a year out while I think about whether I want to do the degree or not. But regardless, astronomy and cosmology is my passion :)
Thanks Dr. Becky. Good stuff.
Hola, muchas ideas, así se vislumbra cuál es la realidad de estos objetos,sea cual sea,es impresionante, like, sigo el canal,gracias al Dr.Becky 😊
Thanks! I asked about antimatter of dark matter at PBS spacetime but got no answer, good that you started by clarifying the issue at the beginning. If this holds true, the wimpy hypothesis will win. Or not.
Dark matter annihilation can also happen with other types of dark matter, it does not need to be WIMPs.
I couldn't see your comment on PBS Spacetime's video on the subject after scrolling to the end of the page... What was your question?
Couldn't a google search about matter annihilation help you? What did Dr. Becky say more? She skimmed through most of the details of what are the assumptions of the WIMP model and explained the mechanism very briefly. If you want to have fun google "Majorana fermions".
Thank you, Dr.Becky! Happy to be supporting your work. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask below. Otherwise, you can go to the link above to learn more about Ground News.
Dr. Becky, I wish I could speak English: Dahk Stahr! Hehe love you and your videos! Have a great weekend!
In my humble opinion, you need to interview the author(s) and ask them why they didn't use the spectography instend of the image data. Yuou have the power!!
Thank you Dr. Becky for a great video explaining this complicated topic! What do people propose for the form of the energy produced when WIMPs and anti-WIMPs annihilate? I.e. is it photons / electromagnetic? Gravity waves? Whatever it is is has to interact with regular matter, are there proposals for how this would work?
Speaking of Dark matter, Dr. Becky, can you do a story about the Planck Mass black holes being candidates for Dark matter, that you mentioned in this story?
Amazing video! In your opinion what would happen if a star like that collapsed like regular supernovas? Assuming that's possible could we distinguish it from a normal black hole?
Sorry in advance for the stupid questions but I'm very interested in this topic and I'm trying to learn as much as I can before starting university.
Interesting to say the least. I'm sure we'll hear more on this subject wherever it leads to.
@DrBecky - love your videos and hypotheses and your drive to answer these mysteries. I am curious, I recently came across tremendous evidence about how ancient civilizations as far back as 10000 years or more have documented formulas for solar system models, lunar calculations and even observed Andromeda. ISRO scientists do believe there is a wealth of astronomical knowledge in these ancient scriptures, one that gets called out most is "surya siddhanta" book in the Vedas. Have you or any of your colleagues explored the translation of surya siddhanta Vedic book to see if there's a clue in there about stuff involving dark matter or energy etc.
Dr. Becky, long time subscriber, love your vid's. Here is my first time commenting. I really have to know why the heck did they call the first stars that formed after the big bang population III stars? and not population I stars. This seriously drives me nuts, now what are they going to call the 4th generation stars? Population 0? then population -1 and so on? Thx for everything, keep up the great work.
It's a matter of history: Population I stars were found first, Population II stars only afterwards, and that happened before people were aware that Pop II stars must have existed _before_ Pop II. So the logical progression is calling the stars which came even before Pop II, well, the Pop III.
TY Another Intriguing beautiful video. 👍 👏👏👏
Dinner with Dr. Becky. She on top of the desk (flat screen monitor). Me sitting at the desk with a plate of good food. Sun setting through my office window. An even without mouthfuls of food I would not have interrupted the fascinating and insightful discussion. 11/10 would do this again.
Just finished good omens and apresheate the clip! My two favorite things, good omens and astrophysics:D
props for the Good Omens ref. :3
I love shy fi ❤ great channel Dr. Becky
I love your channel!
17:40 I mean, it would be pretty boring if we spent all this money on a telescope and all it did was confirm our existing models.
I love a nice bit of spectrum absorbtion.
Awesome to see some one on the centre left promote media awareness, it often seems to be only a centre-right thing. Though Sabine H is good too - you're in good company! 😄
i read your headline and instantly said outloud....."what!!! Dr. becky explain it to me!!!! you never dissapoint, like soooo many other headlines.
I checked the video about theories of Gravity you made and you seem to have skipped over the Verlinde gravity (gravity as entropic force). I'd be interested in your opinion on that one given that the experimental results are fairly mixed so far from what I've heard.
As far as I know, Verlinde's hypothesis is _not_ a new theory of gravity, but merely a way to derive the _usual_ Einsteinian theory of gravity from first principles.
Electron-Positron annihilation always produces light of the same wavelength. Wouldn't this also happen with WIMPS, and if so, shouldn't we expect all dark-stars to share some peak at the WIMP's wavelength?
hydrogen fusion into helium also always produces gamma rays with the same wavelength and normal stars don't have a peak at that wavelength. the gamma rays get absorbed by the nearby gas and radiated from the surface in a blackbody spectrum pretty much no matter what process or wavelength is heating it.
@@thamiordragonheart8682 But shouldn't dark matter particles still occasionally chance into collisions in open space to this day and produce these photons? Shouldn't we be able to detect occasional high energy stray photons with a characteristic wavelength, with detection events roughly in line with where we expect dark matter to be densest?
@@seanbutterfield1Err, she talked about detecting such photons in the video, about 3:23 to 4:15.
@@seanbutterfield1 yes. there are some projects trying to measure those emissions from the galactic halo since finding a signal and measuring its wavelength would tell us how heavy the dark matter particles are.
I think the signal would probably be swamped by thermal emissions near a dark star given how hot they have to be.
I love Becky and GroundNews ❤
Good Omens? Great show 😀
I am still amazed about how you are able to clearly explain such a complex topic to a science illiterate! Great job (again)!
Not sure if you have covered this in a previous video, but I saw on another channel about a blackhole star. An early generation star that, due to it's mass could create a blackhole at it's core but due to it's mass, would not be destroyed by the supernova explosion, and that these could be the origin of the super massive black holes. That these super massive black holes could have bypassed the size growth limit by starting out inside the core of a super massive star.
I always like when the researchers write up ideas with math. The when looking at data that makes no sense I can look at alternatives.
Love your channel. Your content is out of this world, and I hope your fan base grows to astronomical proportions. I siriuslly space out watching your videos. May the stars align in your favor to be able to keep these videos coming for many many moons. 🪐⭐🌠
Good evening Dr. Becky
Very enjoyable thank you
I find different hypothetical primordial objects that are supposed to be born at the beginning of galactic evolutions to be very fascinating. That said, can't help to be slightly skeptical about this one. Can't wait for higher resolution spectra results.
The Good Omens clip drop-in was perfect.
Thanks, Dr. Becky S~
I kept hoping you'd use a few seconds from the song "Information Society-What's on your mind" "Bam Bam Bam Bam Pure Energy..."
@DrBecky Nice Muse reference 😁
I love the bad omens clip. the show is such a delight.
I was not prepared for that Good Omens clip 😂 I just left a GO fanfic to watch this video
Oh I love ground news!
Hi I have been watching your channel for sometime.
Guess what?
I have enrolled on a MSc in Astrophysics with Space Science.
I don’t know where it will take me and I have excitement and nervousness as I am a late starter!!
Can you recommend a basic entry maths book for Uni entry please which will help.
I have used maths in my degree but I need to have a book with practice Q & A. Thank you
Very clear explanation…good insight as well 🤣
Dr Becky has done for Muse what Simon Singh did for Katie Melua. Keeping the tradition alive!
I like the theory. It neatly solves the origin of supermassive black holes. That doesn't make it right, but it's clear that smbhs didn't form from collapsing stars.