London's Ancient Abbeys and Religious Orders
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2021
- Minute 45 I made a mistake. Mary ruled of course before Elizabeth!
This time we're exploring a history of London's ancient abbeys and religious orders, going back over 1000 years, with many with interesting and surprising legacies continuing to this day.
We'll be looking at a whole range of old religious sites and institutions; ancient abbey and monastery ruins holding centuries of monastic lives and prayers, the wide-ranging worlds of the Knights Hospitaller and Knights Templar, smaller communities of Benedictine, Carthusian and Cistercian monks and nuns, and more.
I'll be exploring both their individual histories and contemporary cultures, but also how they originated and how they fit in to the context of the medieval and modern worlds around them.
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Edward you do such an excellent job with us you’re thoughtful educated and thorough
This is excellent! Love your informal but highly informative and knowledgeable presentation.
Respectful suggestion - make your cursor pointer bigger and give it a colour that will make it easier to see the areas you are pointing out.
Thank you for the suggestion! Noted :)
Hi Edward, thank you for this informative presentation. Correction regarding veneration of relics of the saints.People in the 1400's and 1500's did not find this strange. They would have been well versed on the intercession of saints. They would not be 'praying to the bones'. This kind of thinking only came along on when protestantism was enforced.
Talk to a modern Catholic about this.
@@christianfreedom-seeker934 Not sure I understand your comment. The video referenced the 1400's and 1500's. Catholics do not pray to bones any more than they would pray to a tree, a car or a bridge. Any modern Catholic will tell you that 'bones' i.e. relics, are venerated i.e. respected, because they were once part of a body that was once the Temple of the Holy Spirit and the relics of the Saints even more so. The memory of those people inspires prayer either for their souls or for their intercession. Nothing mysterious about it.
@Real Life Lol. No. Catholics do not worship collections of minerals. Do they reverence, not worship, reverence i.e. show respect for, those who led worthy lives and were once temples of the Holy Spirit? Yes. They do.
Really interesting and well presented. Many thanks
This is the first of Edward's presentations I've seen. It is wonderful - the commentary, the erudition, the maps, the photographs, ... everything. This is a video I'll certainly be watching again, many times maybe. I lived for many years in China in a small and very beautiful town whose observable physical history stretched back to at least the Southern Song period - with the consequence that living in this town meant living each day as part of the town's/ country's ongoing history. People there lived and breathed their culture on a daily basis just as they breathed the air. Hence, I found in this video the possibility for the same immersion in culture and history by modern day Londoners. Just as I was moved always by this aspect of life in China, so too was I moved by this CZcams offering. Thank you.
I have an answer about WHY Bedlam Hospital gave us the old term for "crazy persons" it was briefly one of England's first mental hospitals!
The majority of people in England at the time were content, and more than that, actually very pious and devout to the Catholic Church.
converted to Anglicans, now lost to atheism and overtaken by more religious and coherent Islam and Hinduism. This explains the drastic change in England's landscape, London in particular. Proof of this is the total disconnect of followers singing "Jerusalem" to the institutionalized Islamic street protests that local authorities could hardly contain.
The Sovereign Military Order of Malta basically functions as a monastic Order, charity (has hospitals and priories etc all throughout the world),
Chivalric miltary/nobility establishment, and country, all rolled into one. Although some dispute the last part, the fact is that they have their own government, the grand Master is considered a Sovereign Head of State and monk and a prince of the Catholic Church and was considered a prince of the Holy Roman Empire and a prince in his own right still to this day..he can confer Nobility onto people, just like the Pope or the Queen of England..the Order has its own national anthem, capital, currency, license plates, passports, military vehicles, airplanes, and unbelievably 😉 a population, of 3..some will say it takes more than that to make a country, you need a territory as well..and while that's true, and this can be disputed, they do have at least extraterritorial properties..and in Italy, these properties are considered to have the full sovereignty of a country..so, Italian sovereignty and SMOM sovereignty uniquely coexist without overlapping..most importantly, they have official relations with over 120 countries, full with ambassadors and embassies...lastly, the Order of St. John was spit at the reformation, as you said, into Catholic and protestant factions, but interestingly, it is only the Catholic faction of SMOM that is considered to have sovereignty..which is why with what Pope Francis is doing here lately with the Order could be, could be, considered one country invading another..the Pope does have "spiritual" control over the Order, but the Order also has a temporal side (that side is of course formed by Catholic spirituality), and that temporal part is controlled by the Grand Master..actually, this is the way a lot Sovereign Entities functioned in the medieval period..The Holy See with Vatican City, SMOM, and actually Andorra are just modern holdovers from the medieval period, with Catholicism and secular politics, while distinct, are nevertheless interlinked..Andorra BTW is a diarchy ruled by the President of France and the Bishop of Urgell..sorry..I know this was a bit long, off subject and I kinda went onto a tangent, but when you mentioned the Order of St. John at the end, I couldn't resist..these things I'm very passionate about..also, that also makes the Pres of France, in his capacity as Sovereign of Andorra with the Bishop of Urgell, still a monarch..the Bishop of Urgell is a monarch, and actually you have a monk of the Catholic Church (Prince and Grand Master of SMOM), the monarch of a country as well...the Pope is as well
Thanks for taking the time to comment David.
Wonderful detail .
A former medical specialist received the order of the Kinights of St John and Jerusalem. He was very proud of it and treasured it more than his Australian equivelant of a CBE.
The lapel insignia and the tie all had the Cross of Malta.
Does this sound accurate as I didn't quite understand it at the time.
Thank you for your comment.. i just love English history and especially ancient and medieval history and Church or Eccesiastical history. even modern history. Your information about the Sovereign Military Order of Malta is fascinatiing, educational and a bit complicated. it helps me appreciate the stories of how valiantly the Knights of Malta fought against the muslim attempt to invade and conquer Christendom.✝️
Hi, great video, very informative, just one thing, Waltham is pronounced wall thum, not Walt um.
Thanks for this very informative video. I really enjoyed it.
I hope to visit London very soon again and will definitely visit some of the places you showed us.
Fascinating. I watched a series on CZcams where some individuals spent a year living in the manner of tenant farmers for a monastery in the pre-dissolution time. They claimed that this was a common way that the monasteries were able to farm the vast land that they owned. And the tenant farmers paid in various crops and especially in wool that the English monasteries sold to European weavers for a good profit.
Love it!! Please do more of these! I enjoy your tours.
I could listen to you all day! Thank you for such a wonderful view of London.
Absolutely fascinating. Thank you so very much indeed!
Thank you Giovanni!
@@edwardcalcutt3417 You are very welcome indeed! Your extensive knowledge of London’s ancient abbeys and religious orders with their theological and historical significance was not only educational but deepened my appreciation of the important role of religion in English society. One can only imagine what London would look like today had there been no dissolution of the monasteries in the 16th century. Once again, thank you , Edward, it was absolutely brilliant!
Just discovered your channel. Am obsessively binging.
Thank you for your thoughtful “pictures” of London Past. If I return there some day, I will visit these sites and ponder the history, you have revealed.
A very interesting insight . This will encourage me to visit these parts of London.
I enjoyed finding out about these not-so-well-known sites. Fascinating. Thanks for sharing your expertise!.
Hello from Los Ángeles. One word describes this subject. Fascinating! Love your depth,description and even humor on something I never knew about,The Abbeys.
Thank you. I've long had an interest in the monastic history of London, and I found this video illuminating. I'd be grateful for info on the map you frequently referenced on screen.
Fabulous presentation, I like your style! Thanks.
Thanks Edward. Another fascinating, insightful, and beautifully researched piece.
terrific work! I very much enjoyed this.
Your explanations on the historical sources of words are brilliant.
Phenomenal visual renderings. Thank you.
Thank you for such an excellent presentation!! I just discovered your channel.
Thanks, really enjoyed your documentary.
Thank you!
It is amazing how a - still existing and even thriving - way of life can be so easily misunderstood .. if not exactly misrepresented. One can go and experience this way of life briefly, on a 'spiritual retreat' (retiring not running away), for example, the Carmelite Friars at Aylesford in Kent, a fairly brief train journey from London, provide them - or one can just go to the priory and enjoy a peaceful day out, amid the grounds, and chapels, relics and liturgies. No doubt there are good monks, bad monks, middling monks and truly awful monks - they are men, and men do have a habit of loving to do wrong; some of the friars will, naturally enough, be involved in the 'business' of feeding the friars and visitors, for the upkeep of the priory, and dealing with the local traders etc; however, what should surprise modern minds is .. that young men and women still willingly and even eagerly commit to what must seem to be such a basic, hard, and dull way of life; entirely counter to our culture (exactly as it was, all those hundreds and thousands of years ago).
;o)
It is understandable the level of misunderstanding surrounding the religious life as so much of modern identity is defined by what one's personal desires and what one owns and the amount of private capital. The idea that some should voluntarily choose to abandon all that and opt for an entirely different paradigm and life style would be incomprehensible to many.
@@galleryguide9913 True. And yet these same souls may collect Gurus, serve freely in incredibly demanding and restrictive Movements, and even follow blindly and gladly the dictates of everchanging Ideologies. The paradigm shifts, but the human search (for 'something') remains; people are peculiar .. aren't we ..? ;0)
Brilliant. Thank you very much. Very interesting
Lovely to see it after all these years as my wife and I were married there in 1969
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you.
Very interesting indeed. Thank you.
I rely enjoyed this! Thank you
Great job, thank you for what you do
Very interesting. Thank you.
Fantastic channel!
Thank you very much …. That was beautiful and informative video to know the history of London …. 😂don’t know just interesting…..about the hospital and how really from that times want to help others …..🌞
Very interesting. Could you please make a video about Black, White and Grey friars. Thank you
I found this last night and much enjoyed the presentation which connected together a few missing links in my knowledge of London. Some of the places I have visited and you alerted me to St Bart's Minor which looks a fascinating remnant. Growing up in Abingdon which at one time had one of the dozen wealthiest abbeys in England I have been aware since childhood of the importance of the monastic foundations in this country and the great sense of loss caused by the Dissolution. Fortunately at Abingdon the site of the church has never been build on and although nothing remains above ground recent geo-physical surveys have revealed so much hidden beneath the turf. Fortunately the lay brothers church, gate way and some of the domestic buildings survive and the precinct retains a sense of calm. Much of the stone went on Henry's London works and the oak gated were used at Somerset House in The Strand. The site by the Thames (as with Reading) meant the Thames Valley lost its two most important monastic churches. Had there been no Reformation and Dissolution we would not have the great houses of the 16/17th centuries but the other consequence makes me shudder - the later fashions would have seen St Bartholomew the Great rebuild in baroque or rococo form! Clergy are often given over to vanity projects and if rebuilding was common in the 12-16th centuries how much more so in 17-18th centuries when demands for comfort and modernisation would have swept so mooch away.
Hi Edward, I love your channel, this video is one of my favourites. Do you also do live tours in London? I might be in town in mid October und would love to join a tour if possible.
You’re so knowledgeable about London’s history. I am really enjoying your lectures and the accompanying photos. It’s one thing to read or hear about unique places in London and another thing to actually see where they or what’s left of them are. London is my favorite city to visit because of its incredible history. Whenever Covid ends or becomes endemic so that it’s safe to travel abroad again it’s at the top of my list of places to visit. I’m a serious Anglophile. With regard to the Dissolution of the Monasteries it’s such a shame that Henry VIII had such an integral part of English culture destroyed wholesale. Edward VI was no better with his command to whitewash all of the folk art religious murals in churches throughout the kingdom. All of that art and those beautiful handcrafted buildings destroyed just because Henry’d already blown through the money that his father had so carefully saved (some say hoarded) and left for him to use wisely to build up England. There were better ways to deal with the break with Rome! That was Henry’s biggest problem. Act first and regret later.
It is indeed a real pity they were destroyed! So much history lost....😥 If you're ever in London, hit me up, as I do guided tours around these same areas :) calcuttet77@hotmail.com
Best thing would be not to have broken with Rome in the first place
Last time I was in London I went to the temple on Sunday to attend a service and to see William Marshall tomb but it was closed on Sunday 😮
Very interesting …….🌞
Thank you.
Very enjoyable presentation. I did not hear any mention of a Gilbertine order in London; was there one? There were 26 Gilbertine 'franchises' at the time of the Dissolution but I know of only 1 or 2 existing structures from the only solely English order (ignoring the 1 Scottish facility) that had a colorful, and apparently well-earned, scandalous past. I don't think Mary came to power after Elizabeth (45:46); it's always puzzled me why everyone mentions Mary's executions and almost no one mentions the fact that, on a per annum, i.e. yearly, basis, Elizabeth murdered more Catholics than Mary did Anglicans; a hangover of English anti-Catholicism perhaps? A similar thing occurs in the northeast US where many don't acknowledge their English ancestry - I grew up Italian and Irish despite being 50% English - probably a hangover from colonial times and the anti-English feelings that were rampant.
Old Malton priory in North Yorkshire was a Gilbertine foundation. The church remains with comparatively little alteration and there are ruins of some of the other buildings
@42:00 Footy note. By the time the Old Carthusians F.C. won the FA Cup the school had moved to Godalming in Surrey.
the image on the right of the Carthusian monk at 43:30 is from 'Into Great Silence', a film length documentary shot in a French monastery that viewers of this video may enjoy ... i lived in London for 4 years in my late 20s, & now i feel really stupid for not diving deeper into the history of the place. but then, we didn't have the internet then ... really, in the late 90s, the way that we do today, with so many sources of information at our disposal ... blurp.
People were as superstitious after the reformation as they were before - if not more. The witchcraft craze came largely out of Protestantism. All of religion could be deemed superstition if that cynical.
agreed, an interesting video if a tad 'protestant'
Mary before Elizabeth I
??
Really enjoyed your presentation
There were two Mary's in Elizabeth's time. Mary Tudor was Elizabeth's older half sister and offspring of Henry 8th and his first wife Catherine of Aragon. When Mary Tudor died, Elizabeth became queen. Mary, Queen of Scots (Mary Stewart), was Elizabeth's Catholic younger cousin. She fled into England to escape hostile Scottish earls. Elizabeth held her prisoner for many years, fearing that Mary at large would lead to her (Elizabeth's) demise. That almost happened. In the Northern Rebellion of 1569, thousands of Englishmen, earls, knights, farmers rose against Elizabeth for her suppression of the Mass. Thousands were killed in retribution, hung from steeples and along the roadsides, in York and all the way to London. Their properties and estates were confiscated and their families impoverished. Mary, Queen of Scots was executed for plotting against Elizabeth, in what was probably an entrapment, since evidence presented was tenuous at best. Justice then, as now, was not always just.
@@siena4ever751
Thanks for your correction.
With a Scottish grandmother I should have thought of that Mary.
But I found this still odd since it was in reference to the windows of a building overlooking a square where people were being killed....
So I am still confused about this since that Mary you refer to was not having folks killed in a London Square?
But a great talk that I really enjoyed.
Good to hear from you
@@denisegault9896 Hi Denise, sorry, didn't mean my reply to sound like a correction. In reference to the windows, I guess that would be Mary Tudor? although many died in the reign of Elizabeth as well.
Not a problem ☺️
Glad to have a discussion.
Yes I thought from the context that he was indeed referring to Mary Tudor and it might be a blooper in what was otherwise a great talk.
Best wishes
Denise
Just wanted to point out at 24:10 that's the chapter house at Lincoln rather than Westminster. a very good video nonetheless on a subject i always wished to learn more about !
There was a chapter house in all cathedrals
I'm not clear by the ownership of the temple church. You mentioned The courts peculiar. Is this a government institution that is the owner ?
People have jewels etc to adorn religious pieces - not the same motive as Henry V111 - in accordance to the Biblical story of Cain and Able here Cain gave his leftovers to God. All the works and materials put Derek went to greedy humans. That’s why I don’t feel so sad about the demolition of country houses - they finally know what it feels like. Henry viii is said to have mirdered as many as 60,000 people including nuns and clergy that did nothing but pray for others.
Mary was queen before elizibeth.
Henry Vlll has so much to answer for.
Could you tell us who the artist is as well as date of the painting of London that you show at the beginning of your presentation, please?
It's a colorised version of 'Panorama of London, 1616' by Claus Visscher.
@@edwardcalcutt3417 Ah OK that's why I didn't recognise it. Thank you very much.
Interesting , The nuns and monks praying and studying scriptures on behalf of others, who parted with money for those prayers , it's not much different today , in Israel, where the Orthodox study and pray for those who go out and defend the populace . And so the religious get a fund , to intercede for their country ,
I love the false argument about the wealth of monasteries - the monks and nuns took vows of poverty and usually ate one meal a day. They farmed and raised sheep and cattle for wool and leather and were actually cities up in themselves. Artists gave their skills freely and parishioner all gave money but it wasn’t wealth that was assessable. The church also educated and vcirtually every university of Europe was founded and run by unpaid clergy.
I thinks the reason why so many misunderstand the idea is because the associate institutional wealth with individual wealth. I compare it to saying that just because you work for a bank you must be rich.
Very interesting but the pronunciation of Waltham is not correct. At least locally it isn't said with a hard 't' but a 'th' sound.
Thank f no adds excuse my language but you're the first in a while not to have them cursed things
sir william marshall was more than quite important, he was the regent ruler of england after king john died as john's son was too young to rule, marshall was the young kings guardian
The land owned by the church seems by some accounts to have abandoned after a visitation of the Plague but having been dedicated to God could not be used for farming by the laity... have you any ideas on this theory which would explain Henry VIII and the Dissolution in part?
That's such a great question! Complicated! I've been recently reading Jocelin of Brakelond's account of the workings of Bury St Edmonds Abbey (writing in the late 1100s), and despite the religious and pretty steadfast character he depicts of the Abbot - and likely various genuine aspects of the community - the abbey ran alot like a business. Monks were taking out loans, running businesses as extensions of their land-management duties (people who owed various dues to the abbey because of its religious precedence), squabbling and wabbling..... generally pursuing a kind of personal wealth in some way (whether or not that was for the good of the abbey and the sanctuary of St Edmund), and surviving documents reveal similar business-like, income-accruing elements at Westminster Abbey. I say all this because, while by no means an expert, I don't know of monasteries or abbeys that purely closed down from plague casualties, and owes more to Henry playing into the Reformation, his own royal politics, and acquiring more wealth (alot for war and palaces). Certainly the big plagues of the 1300s killed off something like a 5th of the population, but it seems (again I don't know if this is true in every religious institution that got dissolved) that most institutions were still going along until the Act of Supremacy allowed Henry to say bye bye.
By extension of the abbeys themselves, the deaths of people working or paying dues on the land the abbeys owned was certainly an effect of the plagues, but again, I don't have a complete picture of how or if that contributed to their final dissolution.
Interesting the name ra her - “ her- means hair in arm lang . the color of ra -yellow… red-ish yellow ( better translated in some sense ) still have name Rahel as a woman’s name in the meaning interpreting the head…..very interesting…..🌞
Such a sad loos of religious influences
Waltham church around 1150 (completed).
So in London these are the downtown abbeys?
One of the first statutes to cut the power of the church was the statute of Mortmain or dead hand. When a person died intestate the monarch received But, since the church went forever . The church kept the property.
Yippee Abbey Wood!!!!
Churches were very often -sponsored - by the merchants. In order to ask for forgiveness from St. Peter already on earth for their many sins that they had probably committed. ( at least, it was so in ancient Russia. Nizhny Novgorod was such a case).
The gentlemen of the pepper sacks - Pfeffersäcke -, while not outright derogative not to nice a name...have probably sinned a lot...-Pepper sacks - was the name the Hamburgers gave to their merchants. Because in Hamburg a lot of pepper arrived.And since a lot of profit was made. And, of course, because no one - a stranger - came to this illustrious circle. or was it the London merchants, too?
Bermondsey Abbey?
When did Peter of Cornwall write his book 'Book of Revelations'?
about 1200
You need a larger cursor.
minute 45: Mary was queen BEFORE Elizabeth. Mary I 1553-1558. Elizabeth I 1558-1603. Your videos would be so much more interesting if you were less approximate.
Thank you most interesting! Although I must say the rich got richer didn’t they! I’m so glad I didn’t live then!
The rich are still getting richer. And this time they're insuring that you'll own nothing, you'll eat bugs, and you'll be happy because they command it.
Pray for the unity of Christendom.
Your visuals add much to the topic. I have been reading Eileen Powers' book on medieval English nunneries. Interestingly, Powers could find little evidence that any serious hospitals or children's formal education had occurred in these establishments. There was some evidence that for additional income borders were at times accepted, without evidence that the nuns provided education for these children. There seems to have been allusions to a pre-Norman conquest educational tradition for English nunneries that was lost by the time that the Plantagnets came to rule. What seems to have been more common was for using nunneries as babysitting services or where guardians might send a ward, along with tutors, in to an abbey or priory precinct for the child's formative years. Power asserts that the level of education in the majority of English nuns was abysmal; where as, she finds some stark contrasts in that there were books being created in European continental nunneries, but none, apparently, in England. Rather a perplex given the general assumptions, to day, that medieval English nunneries ran hospitals and children's schools.
Very nice. But a bit too championing Protestantism. For 1500 years Christianity sought aid or assistance from the saints. What was weird was not that but its cessation. Also, the Abbey's wealth was merely transferred to the powerful, secular rulers, greedy rulers. In a way making the society less unjust to ordinary people. Have you watched Mary's Dowry? A UK small production team making videos recapturing the UK's Catholic history and heritage. Just gives a different perspective.
Your pronunciation of Waltham Abbey is incorrect, Walth-ham not Walt-ham that was my local church when I lived there, and there are tunnels from the abbey that go to coppice wood which was used by the monks to commute, the ceiling of the abbey shows the zodiac sign, this was to help the non reading peasants to navigate the season,
Waltham is pronounced walth am not walt ham
"Me thinks the 'Lady' does protest a little too much." A Walliams and Lucas comedy catchphrase but imagine finding out from a no-mark scallywag that women are actually a far, far more modern creation. I know it sounds ridiculous, but that has no bearing on fact. The 'overt' attributing of just about anything to a Mary, a Margaret, or a Catherine has all helped steer us by the horns into believing their lies as they systematically muddied the Fathers, while elevating a fictitious 'mother' nature' Goddess mindset.
Huh?
@@kimfleury Your spelling is awful my friend, it's spelt 'H-e-r' not 'h-u-h!'
A vice most obscene and unsavory, holds the bishop of Barking in slavery. With lascivious howls, he deflowers young owls, which he lures to an underground aviary.
There the military knights building claimed the the descendants of the Masonic fraternity? No in land ownership, but in historical roots?
London seemed so beautiful before it was lost to the era of mass immigration that saw the Brits driven out of it. Great show, thanks for spreading this message.
And yet it can feel so much worse since Brexit. Go figure
@@novianovioTV if this is true then it would be cruel to allow all these foreigners to keep migrating to London to live there, we must stop receiving more of them for their own good 👍
Ancient is everything BC, everything AD is not.
Its pronounced walTHAM
you realise of course that we are looking BACK at our christian PAST?
It's pronounced Wal-tham. That was enough to stop me watching. If you got that wrong, god knows the authenticity of the rest.
pfft
As a student of the Bible I want to know where in the Bible is the concept of the clergy being celibate . Paul alludes to it but does not require it. The catholic church did not require priestly celibacy until the 700s.
The Catholic Church didn’t require celibacy until the first Lateran Council in 1123-53.
A number of Popes had children.
Christ gave the Church three things; 1/ Scripture 2/ the Church's teaching Authority & 3/ Tradition - 'Bible alone' is a heresy invented by that price of heretics, Martin Luther (the Bible talks about 2/ and 3/ but nowhere in the Bible does it say 'Bible alone')
"What you bind on earth is bound in heaven. What you loose on earth is loosed in heaven." This is the arrangement God made with the Church, that even He will concur with the Church's disciplines.
@@allangibson2408 tHE FIRST REQUIEMENT FOR THE CELIBACY OF THE CLERGY CAME FROM A PROVINCIAL COUNCIL IN SPAIN IN THE 800 HUNDREDS.(00PS, CAPS lOCK!) But Christ, as did St. Paul, spoke about the vocation of being unmarried for the sake of the Kingdom. Yes, one or two two popes did have children... they were sinners..as are we all! Gordon Carter. Adelaide . Australia.
Your presentation is intriguing but you need to follow a script and make your presentation flow. Mary did not follow Elizabeth as Queen. You have too many glitches in your speech. Please make an effort and stop correcting yourself, just make a flowing commentary, after all none of this should be coming as a surprise to you. Apart from that a great subject.
Mass insanity
A history of guilt, shame,fear, torture and terror. Total control over their victims. Glad I missed at least some of it!
You haven't missed any of it. It's still happening today in the global monastery of Woke.
in the monastery of Woke? What ARE you talking about? I'd say conservative folk tick more of these boxes than anything.
666 is an odd number? Why are you superstitious, so you think this number has any special significance, eh no.
it was only a light hearted remark Phil