What is Pietism? | Theocast
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2024
- Pietism is something we have discussed many times over the years on Theocast. Four years into recording together, Jon and Justin pointedly revisit the topic in today’s episode. What is pietism? How would the guys explain it to someone visiting their respective churches? How does pietism affect the individual Christian? How does it affect churches and even corporate worship? And what about the church’s tendency to hitch its wagon to politics and social causes--does that have anything to do with pietism?
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Thanks for this message, guys. I need this preached to me daily as I so easily slip into the "am I doing enough" mindset. Keep up the great work!
This topic changed my life 7 years ago. Such an important discussion.
What's the relationship between pietism and legalism? Are they the same thing? Is pietism a form of legalism? A podcast on this would be helpful too!
I want to share a cool experience I had during Worship with you all. Your discussion on pietism and corporate worship reminded me of this. I'm not sure how Charismatic you all are but I believe God still speaks today, and that it will always be in line with scripture.
I was worshiping in Church one day and I was praying something like, "God fill my mouth with the words that honor you most. Perfect my worship so that I can please you more". After I said this the Holy Spirit brought a picture to my mind. I was in a classroom in detention, and was the only one in the room besides Jesus who was sitting at the teachers desk. I finished my multiple choice test and walked up to hand it to Jesus and when I did he chuckled and handed it back to me. "I'm not grading you" he said.
I started to tear up at this because I knew what it meant. I was always grading myself as I went into worship. Looking back at my faithfulness that past week to see how confident I can be before God. After that Image/Vision or whatever you want to call it I know that Jesus is not grading my worship. He's not waiting eagerly to judge me, but to love me. My imperfect worship is acceptable to God, because I am IN Christ
This topic changed my life 2 years ago the first tine I listened to you
Same with me!!!
I have been power watching your videos, it is a rare gem to find this channel because the truth is like looking for a needle in a haystack when it comes to finding the right preachers. So thankyou very much for your aid and efforts. This podcast has helped me so much...though I have been a christian all my life, I have been lost.
“Beam me up, Scotty! Why? Because I am in the robes of Jesus.”
Love it. 🤓 Amen, brothers. Thankful to you guys and to both your families for the time and work you put in to build us up & encourage rest in Christ.🖤
"When we rest in Christ, we find our souls nourished and sustained by his grace, comforted by his promises, and filled with the peace that surpasses all understanding."
Source: The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume 2: Religious Affections
Thanks for this AGAIN. I need to hear the same things over and over even I often think I am ok and I got it. Always learning and always reinforcing.
Good morning, Brothers! You guys have bolstered and beefed up; tightened and refined and polished your original video on this topic. You knocked it out of the park! Thanks, again! 😊
To echo what others are saying....this is SUCH an important topic!! Thank you for not being afraid to speak it!! 💜💜
The curse of God is like a flood that swallows everything that is not of faith. To avoid the curse we must hold on to the promise of the blessing in Christ. - Luther
Excellent message. Thanks men.
Thank you! Thank you!
This topic is so important to grasp in our modern context. It's the air we breathe and yet no one is talking about it. Thank you all for exposing the truth and for helping a weary pilgrim like me rest in Christ!
I think there can be a hyper aspect to every theology or movement. Pietism came about to push back against a dead confessionalism. I think balance is the key.
Thank you for really digging deep on this! This is so helpful for me!
Watching it again!
Much needed clarity on this subject.
May the joy of the Lord be our strength…
Wow thank you so much for sharing this - it is so liberating and I definitely need to look into this more. Thank you again!
My church is the United Reformed Church of North America (URCNA) (The Three Forms of Unity) I enjoy your enthusiasm about Historic Reformed Covenantal Theology.
Thank you guys, so much. I really need prayer and wisdom over this issue. I definitely feel stuck in the "schizo reality" as it was described in the past "leaving pietism" episode.
One day my church is preaching that true sacrificial giving must be done and connecting it to the Matthew 25 passage on the day of judgement. The next it's all about how undeserving we are and how much Christ has done for us and how we are totally incapable in and of ourselves and how gracious He is. Then the NEXT it's a men's study through a small book about examining yourself to see if you're a true Christian. One day it's nothing but Jesus. The next it's all me.
Listening to that episode recently was alarming for me. Grabbed my attention immediately, and directly reflected very specific ideas and questions I've written about in my journal.
I guess I just don't know what to do about it... or if I'm really perceiving things correctly... I honestly wish it was more consistent. Either all Jesus or all me so I didn't feel so confused about what kind of environment I'm trying to worship in.
Truth!!!
Psalms 147:11 "the Lord takes pleasure in those that fear Him, in those that hope in His mercy." The Lord showed me that I am a true Christian with this verse. I doubted my salvation because of my indwelling sin, failure to be good enough, and weakness. I daily came to the Lord many times, asking for mercy, crying for help and strength. One morning during prayer and Bible reading, I especially needed something from the Lord I guess because He showed me this verse and I saw myself in it. It's so simple to please the Lord. Do you fear Him ? Are you, in true humility, coming before Him hoping in His mercy? A Christian, stumbling along in his walk, full of imperfections and shortcomings, can please the Lord by the things mentioned in thus verse . To fully admit your sin to God, to realize that He saves us, really saves us, is such a wonderful place to be; before Him in love and gratitude and humility, thanking and praising Him. Worshipping Him, in gratitude for Him. It's about HIM ! One morning I was mourning my lack of faith as I prayed for something that I had prayed for for 20 years or more and was still unanswered, which concerned my daily Christian walk. The Lord showed me in my spirit "John, you think you don't have faith, yet you have faithfully prayed for this for all this time, with out an answer, because you have faith in Me ! Nobody askes the same thing for twenty years without faith in the one they are asking. A lot of things are counter intuitive in walk with Christ. Praise Him, and put yourself to death daily like Paul said.
Pietism seems to create a "holy hierarchy" amongst believers. In my long experience, the most pious rarely offer a hand out to those below them. It always seems to be an accusation, as if they will be the ticket-takers at the Gates. I weary of their tone.
I love this message! Could yall explain the connection or bridge the gap between this and self discipline & church discipline?
I agree with what you're saying, that the spirit of self-effort, and focusing on performance and obedience over identity and the finished work of Christ, is problematic. But I'm not sure that this is Pietism. As far as I know, Pietism was really just a movement within Lutheranism focused on individual Bible study, personal devotion, not over thinking doctrine or theology, etc. But bravo. Whatever we call that "unclean spirit" that relies on self and self-effort, whatever produces that 'Galatian Heresy" ... Be gone in Jesus' Name. Great episode brothers
What do you mean by fear?
Proverbs 9:10
English Standard Version
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
pietism is the outflow of the Christian life, The obedience of the believer is good. But the obedience and works of the believer is not totally what God blesses or what pleases HIM. Pietism is thinking am I doing good enough as a believer? Preaching the gospel of faith and grace for salvation should also be the way we live the Christian life, it is not about what we do or not do but who we are in Christ. Trust in the finished work of Jesus and the cross, we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit continues to work INSIDE a believer.
You guys sound like Lutherans which is a good thing.
In witnessing the gospel to non-believers, I often see Christians stress the importance of "free will" in the process of coming to know Christ. It is stressed so much that it is often elevated as "the" essential part of accepting Jesus as their personal savior. the concept of free will is as important as salvation itself. So, my question is this a form of pietism? Thanks in advance! Great podcast.
Yes... it is this implicitness that is so harmful and though I found a church they do this still. I'm really having trouble and have been looking and listening and cannot find a church who does not do this... ? I know I too still struggle with it. But thanks so much for what you are doing in pointing us to Christ alone. I feel like I'm "getting it" and that in Christ I'm good. But no one else around me locally understands and I "look" very ungodly...and so I fall into thinking I'm not doing enough. It's pretty lonely. Ahhh for heaven.
To: THEOCAST - Have you or do you plan on doing a show about TRUE and FALSE CONVERSION, according to Mark 4 and Matthew 13, or in some ways 1 John 2:19? I'm sure it would be interesting to hear how you approach it.
Can you share the background music info please?
So how then are we to receive Romans 12:1 and following if we bring nothing? I’m with you guys all the way on the process and acting out of identity in Christ. 100 percent on metanoia coming only by the Spirit. But what is the heart of worship if we bring nothing of ourselves?? Again, I’m a Reformed guy, think I’m with you, but this almost feels like overcorrecting. Thanks for any thoughts!
The anxiety seat to the altar calls where emotionalism is used to convert sinners. Anything man made cannot be considered to convert people to Christianity or to regenerate for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in Christ!
For those who couldn't exit a pietistic church, can you provide help in how to listen to pietistic preachers?
I'm in a similar situation. I now listen to sermons with very discerning ears. Sometimes I may feel beat up and riled up, but with truth in my heart, God's love shows up stronger. Now I have an answer I can rest on. We can even learn from a bad sermon. But be gentle with yourself. Continue to love. Throw the rest away without guilt or fear.
Hello Theocast,
Shalom.
I will say up front I am not reformed nor Catholic in my worldview.
I have studied theology for years though.
In my past year I would say for hours a day.
I've reached a point where I am unsure what to say on the topic of works.
I was always taught Salvation is the root and works the fruit.
My heart tells me that is true. But I am unsure how to trust my heart anymore.
When I affirm OSAS I feel my heart become cheerful.
But when I affirm OSAS I feel my mind begin to feel dirty. Like I did something bad. As though I had just lied in affirming OSAS.
As fellow theologians can you help me understand this?
As a non-Calvinist, I appreciate this teaching against pietism. I do find it interesting though that blame is laid on non-Calvinists (Arminians) for pietism. My observation is that the primarily popularizers of pietism are dyed-in-the-wool Calvinists. It's the fundamental baptists, Calvary Chapel folks and charismatics that I find are promoting a cross/Christ centered Christian life. The claim that only a monergistic view of salvation/regeneration can lead to a cross-centered Christian life falls flat from my perspective.
Arminianism is absolutely the problem. It relegates Christianity into just another works based religion. It takes the grace out of Christianity which is not Christianity at all. The most primary impact this has on people’s behavior is that it makes them conceited in their own righteousness and intolerant of unbelievers. I grew up in it and I see it every time I visit a Baptist church or hear a Baptist sermon. It’s the main reason unbelievers give for why they don’t like church or Christians. My mom is still in a church like this and she is constantly being cold shouldered by the holier than though types. She asked me once if I had similar problems at my reformed church and I literally couldn’t think of one person I didn’t like, or who wasn’t kind. Basically, Arminianism is evil and it needs to be dismantled.
@@a5dr3I'm not an Arminian, but I am also not a Calvinist. I am more aligned with the Free Grace movement. So I agree with you that Arminianism is more oriented toward works. But the biggest popularizers of pietism, Lordship Salvation and works-based salvation are John Piper, John MacArthur and Paul Washer. All Calvinists. Obviously Calvinism does not solve this problem.
@@NathanRambeck I don’t know what the free grace movement is but there are no transwomen and there are no Calviminians. God either resurrects you from the dead spiritually or you help play a part by opening the door of the tomb.
I also don’t understand what problem you think the leaders you mentioned have. Your saying those churches focus too much on works or piety? I have some experience with MacArthur and that isn’t the case at his churches.
I’ve spent a lot of time in different churches and working in ministry and those who are not Calvinistic or Reformed have markedly different attitudes that pervade the congregants. I’m sure there can be other sociological factors, like geography, that can also play a big part. Like, I would say that generally speaking churches in big cities are a lot less xenophobic than those in small towns, but overall the difference in attitudes is stark.
@@a5dr3 Gender is binary. Soteriology is not. There are more than two views.
John Piper is well known for teaching that you have to do good works to get into heaven. John MacArthur is the most well known proponent of Lordship Salvation which teaches confidence in your salvation is based on how well you live the Christian life. Both are highly committed to Calvinism. Calvinism is all about determinism. Some Calvinists believe that those he decrees to save, He also decrees to have sufficient good works, thus they are comfortable mixing together faith and works for salvation. Other Calvinists believe that those He decrees to save, He may or may not decree to have good works. So they say works are not required.
@@NathanRambeck I think your getting your information from a third party who doesn’t understand any of this, especially Calvinism. None of those you listed believe in salvation by works, I mean that’s absolutely ridiculous. I was listening to MacArthur go on and on about salvation solely by grace yesterday for so long I got bored and put on a different video. I think you need to study better teachers, I’d be happy to recommend some. Basically anyone associated with RTS or Westminster, which give you a huge umbrella to choose from.
- Calvinism actually isn’t about determinism, it provides the only possible foundation for human free agency. This is what no critic of Calvinism understands. The Bible says that God ordains our free choices. It is precisely because of that ordination that they are free, and not determined, as they would be in an atheistic universe, by material factors.
Am I hearing that - I am obligated to obey but if I don’t obey I’m still accepted.
Also.., I feel as if your saying that it’s wrong to keep examine yourself but 2 Corinthians 13:5
Regarding obligation and acceptance. In order to be saved, there must be perfect obedience. No one has ever obeyed perfectly, save one. Christ came to do that on my behalf. He did what the law couldn't do for me because I was weak and unable to fulfill it. I stood condemned, but I'm now accepted, not because of my works, but through faith in Him who perfectly kept the law.
Regarding 2 Cor. 13:5, I don't read Greek, but you can look it up in a lexicon online and see that examine and test are in present imperative aorist. Google tells me, "In ancient Greek the aorist imperative is used for urgent, positive one-time commands." "Examine yourselves" is not the center of our faith. It's something that may sometimes need to be done, but our daily experience shouldn't lead us to constantly doubt whether we have truly believed.
Definitely check out that video in my other comment! Justification by faith is the foundation of biblical Christianity. Without it, we're all without hope.
Do you Brothers believe the law is a means of our sanctification?
No, but a guild. Watch our series on law gospel distinction
@@THEOCAST*guide
@@THEOCAST if we are being confirmed into the image of His Son, then what is the means the Spirit uses to cause us to become more like Christ?
In the preaching of sanctification and in the life of sanctification, the law has a vitally important and necessary role. This necessary role is additional to the law's exposure of our sinfulness our life long, so that we are daily fleeing to God for the grace of pardon, and for the grace to overcome our sinful nature and to make progress in holiness. This role of the law is not that the law justifies us, sanctifies us or saves us. Jesus Christ saves us, by the pure grace of the gospel. But the role of the law is that it is the rule--the divine, authoritative rule--that defines a holy life, expresses the will of God for our thankful life and marks out the way--the narrow, often difficult way--of salvation, the way to the celestial city. Thus the law must be preached. And it is to be preached thus, as LAW: demanding or forbidding; the divine "you must!" or "you must not!" "Thou shalt" in Exodus 20 is not only, or even chiefly, if it all, "Thou wilt," as a promise. But it is also, and chiefly, if not exclusively, "Thou must!" Thou art REQUIRED, by Him who is God and now your God."
There is no place in the Christian church for antinomianism. As it is a pernicious heresy, so are its effects injurious." ~ DJ Engelsma in 'Be Ye Holy' (pg. 87, the role of the law and sanctification) I could be wrong but it seems from everything I'm hearing and reading that this Pietism "movement" is meant as a sort of distraction for the believer. It seems to have its roots in Antinomianism, another tool the enemy uses to confuse and discourage the believer (and keep believers ignorant) of the importance of this fundamental truth of sanctification, the necessity of holiness for final salvation. There are multiple admonitions warning us, "Be not deceived!" And also says "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" Also Scripture speaks of "a peculiar people" as being those who are zealous of good works (Titus 2:14). Hmmm.
So we are to just go out and sin as we please?
I'm curious to know how you came to that conclusion. In this episode, they say that we have an obligation to obey, so I'm not sure why you might think that sinning as we please would be applicable here. They would agree with Paul who says that by no means are we to sin that grace may abound. Rather, how can we who are dead to sin continue to walk in it? Their position on pietism does not negate that reality, and they would tell you the same, I'm sure of it. :)
@@gray_rain well just not sure about it all.
@@jasonobrien1989 About what all?
@@gray_rain Don't Judge me.
Do y’all have an episode on legalism? I am a little confused on the differences between legalism and pietism
czcams.com/video/xvGhu9Pc2LA/video.htmlsi=zGRU1Pu0z-dN1MxM
I get the idea that there is an overemphasis on ourselves and our works. What is glossed over in Roman Catholicism would consuder their system focused on corporate worship the church over the induvidual. Their sacramental system emphasized demonstating your good works as part of demonstrating your salvation. They focus on the teaching of the church and scripture vs personal revelation.
Lutheranism birthed pietism as a reaction to that.
My point mans desire to prove his devotion to God through rules and works goes back.
into ancient history.
I' m not sure pietism is the problem as an unbalanced pietism.
Any works we do can only be done through God's grace we can't will ourseves to good works. I would believe God wants to have an intimate personal relationship with each individual and can reveal areas where self discipline is lacking and provide grace to change. Not condemnation, not judgment, knowing at times we will fail but a desire to sanctify us so we show forth the fruits of the spirit in a more apealing way.
Paul indicated part of our witness is how we behave among unbelievers. We can't change and any attempt to force change will fail, but if God reveals a change and gives us the grace we can.
@timothynorton6137.
I think you hit the nail on the head. These guys are uncharitably straw manning pietism. Obviously, pietism CAN run toward legalism and subjectivism and anti-sacramentalism. Fine. Upbraid those who are guilty of these excesses.
Their way of thinking CAN lead to antinomianism and dead orthodoxy and ritualism. But they sound like they’re attempting to keep the right balance. They should show some sort of faith in their pietistic brothers and sisters. I myself am covenantal and confessional and sacramental AND pietistic. I’m seeking the same balance they are. My own guess, though, is that if they are being this judgmental…then they haven’t reached the correct balance…and need to work on it more.
"Extra Nos" & "incurvatus in se"
“Dead Orthodoxy”? Are the dead orthodox? Does a reprobate believe the gospel? Can a reprobate believe the gospel?
You may want to do your research on the phrase
@@THEOCAST I am familiar with the Arminian, Charismatic, Lordship Salvationist and Revivalist understandings of this term. I was wondering what you guys take on it is as you, like me, are often called antinomian. Do you guys think a reprobate can be orthodox on the gospel? Do you think a truly Orthodox Church can be dead?
Pietism is what libertines and antinomians hate. Next question?
Martin Luther, after him pietism krept in.
Great video. I also look to other resources that talks about Pietism.
It's important to view this movement from multiple perspectives:
"But there were some who said that Pietism has a lot of problems and fought against the movement as a whole. But really, it's hard to characterize Pietism; it's hard to say that it's all bad or something like that, which is what a lot of people want to do today, I think. And you can't really do that, especially because the influences of Pietism run within all of us. Some things, like if you have a small group Bible study or even a Bible study at your church on Sunday mornings where the pastor is leading it, there's a bunch of people having a discussion about the Bible - that really comes from Pietism. If you have an emphasis on foreign missions, that also comes from Pietism. And a lot of the things that we take for granted today do come from Pietism. So, we have to recognize that if we're talking about it, then it's a broad movement. If you disagree with parts of it, talk about the parts you disagree with instead of just kind of saying Pietism is this and it's all bad. It's a very big movement; it's got all sorts of figures, all sorts of beliefs within it. Some I would say are good, some I would say are bad. It really just depends on which aspect of it and which figure in the movement you are talking about."
-Dr. Jordan Cooper
czcams.com/video/5eRswuKgCtc/video.html
These guys contradict themselves. Either you have an obligation to be obedient or you don't. piety either exists as a series of commands from God or not. You can't from one side of your mouth say piety isn't necessary for the Christian life and then say the Christian is obligated to pursue it. I've heard of two churches this teaching has divided, unnecessarily. The Christian should be concerned with taking the Lord's supper when they have been unrepentant. Repentance should be sincere, and most importantly, insincere repentance is a reality in the Christian life and the Christian should be concerned if their repentance is insincere. This is not God's will.
@cmdzee63: The sad reality is people like what they hear, or the people preaching, and fail to notice the contradictions and inconsistencies in calvinism.
Any one can paint over a cat, and create the picture of a dog. If we know scripture, it's our responsibility to notice when it's happening via the hands of our preacher/teachers.
Total Depravity means that after Adam's sin, men were totally depraved. The actions of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Job destroy this belief. Because of man's depraved state, Calvinists, ague God must intervene to change man's heart, yet nothing in scripture indicates any God intervention in the hearts of the above mentioned men. When did God change the heart of Abel from total depravity to righteousness? God didn't.
Scriptural evidence must always trump written or spoken rhetoric.
In Matthew 7:23, who is Jesus talking to? Workers of lawlessness? The false prophets obviously believe in Christ if they do miracles in His name .. so they believe .. why are they not saved
I grew up in a "pietistic" background, and am still moving in a Reformed direction though I haven't landed. I'm taking up this argument in hopes that thinking through it may edify us both.
Note that even in my Arminian background, I would have argued against you here regarding salvation by works. Eph. 2:8-9 is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works.
Are you without sin? Have you perfectly kept the law? I hope you agree the answer, for all of us, is "No." So how is it that Jesus won't tell everyone to depart from him on judgment day? The only people who have hope on judgment day are those who have faith that God has saved them by his love, mercy, and grace (Eph. 2:4-5).
In Matt. 7:21-23, it doesn't say that Jesus is talking to believers. Notice in verse 22 that they emphasize their works, not their their belief, for why they should get into heaven! Verse 21 says that there are some who will "say" Lord, but they will not "do" the will of the Father. They are giving lip service, but it doesn't mean they have a changed heart. You too call them "false prophets", but also say they are "believers"? Just because someone acknowledges the name of God, it doesn't mean that they are a believer. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder" (Jas. 2:19).
Maybe you agree with me here, but point out that James says the true believer is the one who does works. I don't disagree. But I don't believe that James is saying we are made right by our works, but rather that our right works are part of what verifies that we have truly believed. The works are the fruit, not the root of our salvation.
I highly recommend his video.
czcams.com/video/ocHm18wUAGU/video.htmlsi=V0C_4l9Whk8Fa8px
I'll leave my comment as is in case it helps anyone, but I realized I may have jumped the gun if you really were asking the question. When you said, "obviously they believe" while also pointing out that they were workers of lawlessness, I thought you were trying to push people to infer that they once believed, but ultimately weren't saved because of their works. Hopefully we agree that's incorrect!
@@mattyT618 well I definitely agree that we are saved by grace and by faith alone . Where my confusion comes in is when I ask myself after reading Gods word and listening to reformed ministers . Who is responsible for what? I believe God is responsible for my salvation but when you read the scriptures , there are so many instructions to live a holy and righteousness life that it’s hard to tell myself that I have no responsibility and that it’s all Gods..
@@kingjames256 I identify with your struggle. My understanding of most Reformed teaching so far is that the Bible teaches both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, but that there is a degree of mystery here so that we can't completely logically reconcile them from our point of view. This doesn't necessarily make it easier to accept, but there are enough passages that clearly teach the Calvinistic view of salvation that I can't get around it.
Y'all are presenting a really polarized view of this issue. You're sanctified as long as you obey Christ. Self-examination is a good thing.
Read 1John 3. This episode misrepresents the Christian way of life.