3 Phase Distribution Board
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- čas přidán 22. 04. 2016
- A look inside a typical 3 phase distribution board.
This example is an Eaton Memshield 3, with 4 outgoing circuits.
It is configured for single phase use in this video.
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John......I'm not an electrician and only do some basic "home" stuff like lighting and power sockets.....I'm an enthusiastic amateur and know my limitations.....I've spent a lot of time learning the basics over the years but your well presented videos are the best I've found. Very informative and I really enjoy your dismissive "dry humour". Thanks again and keep them coming
GrumpyGrampa go to college and learn it its really not to difficult
To my mind three phase is overkill, but then nor all countries think that's the case and Germany hardly has a reputation for reckless behaviour in such matters. Of course, the do have a different approach; they tend to wire each room with a separate radial which provides both power and lighting so I don't suppose they have one room with two different phases.
So it's not obvious to me that it is such an inherent risk. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of familiarity in such configurations with electricians used to the British way of doing things.
As far as all those warning labels go, some of it is getting ridiculous, like those ludicrous ones about mixed colour wiring standards in domestic situations. Any electrician who can't instantly spot that on a single phase set up ought not be in the industry.
@captain mirrorboots pathetic.
Great video as usual John, very informative. Thanks for posting keep up the good work.
I really am enjoying your videos John. They are clear, professional, simple, your voice is clear and consise (im not blessed with a clear voice, more of a rumbling thunder sound!) And furthermore they are all on subjects that are relevant or intresting
clear, precise and as usual just the right length .. thank you
Here in SA the industrial boards come in both steel and GRP, which makes it easier to drill the holes for cabling glands and such. Steel will typically have a set of partially punched knockouts, but if you want to actually get it out you generally will need a hole saw in any case, as the knockout is more a suggestion than something that actually has gone through the metal.
I had to do some work on the old DB of a building, and needed 1 hole saw per hole to cut them, the old metal was that thick and that tough that a hole saw that would typically do 100 holes in regular steel panels would simply dull in seconds, even with lubricant.
I use an old vacuum cleaner when drilling them, so the swarf you make does not deposit itself all over the inside of the panel and the breakers, which is not a good thing on an already populated ( and possibly live already) panel you are adding to. Even use it with the GRP units, as then the dust is gone before you need to sweep, and as a bonus you can clean inside the panel as well to get all those little clipped ends and plastic pieces out. You just have to go into the bag to get the loose washers and screws it finds, you might really want those later. Also great for cleaning inside machinery to get the dirt and dust away, along with all grease and oil spills. Cylinder vacuum that was noisy, but a new motor and it is not, plus it gets a regular washing with hot water and soap to get the grease out of the pipe.
Superb video yet again !!
1:00 Open the door, get met with a very shocked face
I know nothing about 3 to single phase electrics. But I followed this and did it my self. Really useful and well presented, easy to follow and even more so as the unit was identical to ours. Everything works as it only ran a few LED lights, a fridge and few other bits.
Big fan of your work. Big fan of your tshirt. Thanks for your videos, helping me on my way to my JIB gold card 👍🏻
Thank you John very informative as always. Keep them coming. Any chance of a video on testing bonding to gas and water. What is acceptable ,how to prove extraneous etc. Please
great videos and very informative ,thank you
Thanks a lot, very helpful info
Great video
Tremendous this cheers
great lesson...
Hi John, Another great video, thanks. Shame we cannot fit these everywhere. Trying to get fully populated RCBO's fitted is tight in the consumer units.
Thanks John as ever, would like to have seen the mcbs/rcbos fitted...
Hi your videos are very informative and often you are quoted by other CZcamsrs. Any chance you could consider giving advise on large domestic properties using 3ph, example how to spread the load across floors and provide EV charging
Hi John, your videos here are very informative...Can you also make a video for the comparisons and applications for SP, SPN, DP, TP, TPN, 4P circuit breakers and isolators....thank you in advance.
good info John have you got any videos or upcoming videos on BS electrical symbols and how to read electrical drawings for an industrial drawing thanks
can you do a video on reaction times of mcbs and rcbo and so on I'm at college doing my lvl 2 and would be really helpful thanks
John,
Could you do a video at some time about installing Henley blocks?
Thanks.
I was an electrician many years ago (15th edition). I distinctly remember that the regulations prohibited switching the neutral in three phase applications. This must have changed, and I wonder why.
Thanks.
hi JW,
if you convert a 3phase to a single, is it good practice to change the label inside on the loads side to L1 only? pleasea advice
Great vid, not sure if you take requests for vids but I'm struggling with supply distribution topic namely the 3 wire system delta and star connections and their windings... I've reviewed the topic several times but can wrap my head around it, could you help? or point me towards a source of info? I feel the text book I'm reading from is letting me down... any helps appreciated. keep the vids coming
Robert Tungate - yes, me too.
Pre requisite to assembly the feader circuit and final circuit at the pannel
hi John! Is it right to mount mcb's horizontally? I think the arc chutes inside are most effective only when the MCB's are vertical as the ionised gases get longer time to cool down and extinguish successfully.
Most industrial boards are designed with the MCBs horizontal, so it's not a problem.
how do you wire a 3 phase submain of the 3 phase supply distribution board
i have a common problem that if ashort circuit happen in socket as an example the feeding mcb and the main mcb trip at the same time so wht sould i do
One of the things that strikes me about the UK electrical system is the small number of circuits in favor of local fusing. There's a comment below from someone having to rewire a house with the implication that 24 circuits is a lot. Here, I regularly install 40-circuit panels.
Your voltage is higher, but so is your current. 32A circuits for receptacles -- that's not a thing here. We can't install general-use receptacles on any circuit larger than 20A. Of course you have fuses in the plugs to protect the final cord: here, someone has done some math and figured the impedance of a device's power cord with a dead short on the end, and calculated it should reliably trip a 20A breaker without catching fire, so that's the most we can use for the entire circuit.
Thanks John for the videos. I have mostly been working on domestic supplies. If you are turning this into a single phase supply wont the voltage be higher than 230V if all 3 bars are connected as one? Also for a three phase supply is a ELCB breaker better than a RCBO breaker
those 3 bars are all connected to single phase as this video demonstration is about connecting single phase supply to this 3 phase DB. also ELCB is outdated. RCB or RCBO is updated technology and better
@@lordjaashin I thank you for your reply
HI John
Can u do a video on a single phase ryefield board please.
Thanks.
Hi JW,
Could you do a video explaining three-phase power in general - what it is; how it works; why you'd use it instead of normal 240V mains; that kinda thing. It's something I can't seem to get my head around, and it's apparently not very common here in Ireland, but nonetheless something I'm interested in!
Thanks!
+Daniel
This, with all the subtly that goes around neutral conductor. Like when it can be shared, when it can do the double duty as PE, when it can be reduced size.
This is mild stuff compared to what the Americans do with three phase circuits.
I have both 3 phase and single phase in my home and work shop with I'm told single phases taken from the 3 phase to power different single phase lines in the work shop and home and i have a few questions which I hope you can answer 1. Is that possible 2. Will my single phase handle the job if I remove the 3 phase as running 2 metres is quite expensive 3. Is using the 3 phase in this way cost effective ie. Running single phases from a 3 phase meter . Actual 3 phase not being used and nothing bigger than a rod welder , power washer and lights in the workshop and 2 electric showers and an electric oven and hob in the house ? Single phase 400 units per month 3 phase 130 units per month ?????
The thing that annoys me is, as soon as you fit a dis board the mcb's that are ment for it are then no longer available. worst still someone has fitted a dis board with a name you have never heard of. This is usually in a new build were the the builder has cut his price to the bone and then gets cheap electrical fittings.
Is choosing to use the bigger 3 phase unit instead of a domestic style single phase due to futureproofing since it's going in an industrial location?
Do you have to use a particular type of rcbo or mcb for these commercial units ? They are not the domestic type. ?
Great lesson 👍.
Can the earth and neutral be link together in the distribution board if ur using TT system of earthing.
No, doing that would make it a TN system.
Hi John,
on a 3 phase domestic supply is it acceptable to use all the phases for the various household circuits or should it be done as per the video with a shorting bar. Also I presume the requirements for rcd protection should still be met? or better yet rcbo all round.
If you have a 3 phase supply there is no bar - you have a 4 pole switch instead, 3 phases and neutral.
RCD requirements are not affected by it being 3 phase or single phase.
OK so all three phases used ta. a friend has this supply but only a 3 pole switch as far as I can see. only 4 rcbo's for the new extension and all the other circuits seem to be unprotected as no rcds visible when supposedly there is. obviously the rcds are required but Is the neutral required to be switched too?
Neutral would normally be switched. The 3 pole switches are really intended for boards where all of the loads are 3 phase, so no neutral is required.
I feel like I've just been on a training course to do a new job :-)
+Coolkeys2009 Me too, but that is a compliment!
***** Yeah but the worrying thing is I thought, how do I pay by cash or card LOL
This is so interesting.
So I suppose...
...if, for example, someone had built a new large garage / workshop and only needed a single phase supply at that point, but wanted an option to perhaps upgrade to three phase later on, this (by this, I mean this board), would be the perfect way to proceed.
I guess.
Well, that's what I would do anyway.
>
Hello John,
Beautiful video very knowledgeable.
I wish to buy the incoming disconnector switch with the neutral link and shorting bus bar to convert 3 phase to single phase.
Please let me have the details of incoming disconnector with conversion kit.
Many thanks and wish you happy festive holiday.
Best regards,
Ahmed
Memshield 3 part number EBMS1251N
John, I work in China where domestic apartments can have both 3 and single phase supplied. The 3 phase is designed primarily for larger air con only. Can you give me some suggestions how I should ask the local "electrician" to wire up the consumer unit so all the different phases and the individual 3 phase supply to the AC are RCD protected. Will I have to have an older style single RCD that shuts off supplt to everything in the apartment rather than the individual protected circuits, there will be three single phase networks each with RCD.. Many thanks
Various options:
A: 3 phase board with switch incomer, and single phase RCBOs for the single phase loads. 3 phase RCBOs for the 3 phase loads. Will be the most expensive and 3 phase RCBOs are not available from all manufacturers, but one circuit failure won't affect the others.
B: The same, but have 3p MCBs for the 3 phase loads and put separate 3 phase RCDs in another enclosure for the 3 phase circuits. Probably easier as no need to source 3 phase RCBOs, but uses more space.
C: 2x 3 phase boards - one with switch incomer and single phase RCBOs, the other with RCD incomer and 3 phase MCBs.
D: 3 phase board with RCD incomer, MCBs for all circuits. Probably cheapest, but any failure takes out the whole lot.
Also consider if the air con actually needs an RCD.
Hi John, I wonder if installing ryfield for new flats is the supplier job or an electrician should do that?
Thanks in advance
Normally electrician will install - the supplier may connect it to the incoming supply but won't get involved with any of the equipment or wiring inside the building.
@@jwflame thanks John,
Unfortunately the supplier can supply by 2020 which far too away. Any chance to know any independent supplier please?
Thanks again
Can you use this 3 phase DB for Single Phase and Three Phase simultaneously
Yes, many DBs have both single and three phase circuits connected,
Hi John, we've had a complaint where the guy says he bought a brand new soldering iron from The Range, left it for 10 minutres to heat up. Went to use it and there was an explosion and knocked him out until his wife woke him up. The burn mark is just above the handle so its unlikely he melted through the cable.A couple of things we noticed is that ALL of our branding, batch number and other writing has been rubbed off, indicating that it was in fact not new. It also has some solder and a little copper ccoloured material on the hot end. We believe that the Line and Neutral somehow touched and caused a bang. Can I get your opinions? Thanks
+ChompChompNomNom Probably wear caused by the wires being bent/flexed over time causing the inner conductors to short together.
'explosion and knocked him out until his wife woke him up' is also highly implausible, since the fault level at an appliance will typically be very low, due to the distance from the mains intake, the impedance of the circuit wiring and the multiple protective devices in the chain (supplier fuse for the building, MCB/fuse for the circuit, fuse in the plug).
I got some of the original cable, shorted out the live and neutral and it simply tripped the sockets. I think this guy probably has a very long wire from his house to his garage/shed with no protection at that point.
I got a great bargain. Im just trying to demonstrate for a D.O.L connection for an air conditioner. Someone was selling an ABB distrubition box for 3£
what is typical for modern britisch homes ?? 1 phase 230/240V at 100Amp ??
i like these panel much more than what i most homes in germany have! modern homes have in most cases 3 phases servis but the fuses boxes are so smal that if you use all slots you cant close the box because its exploding with wires!
Single phase, 100A on newer properties. Older ones often 80A or 60A.
230V in theory but in reality it's usually 240V.
3 phase normally only installed in commercial buildings.
mostly prewar buildings in germany have 1 phase. 220v in the older days . 230 today at 10 or 16 or 25 if you lucky 35 amps !
in germany is not typical after war to get a gas stove! nealy all buildings with electric stofe have models they run on 3 phases!
also after war it was common electric wather heater or electric room heating on 3 phases!
i dont like electric wather heater or room heating! its much more expensive than gas!
The hunter games
I have both 3 phase and single phase in my home and work shop with I'm told single phases taken from the 3 phase to power different single phase lines in the work shop and home and i have a few questions which I hope you can answer 1. Is that possible 2. Will my single phase handle the job if I remove the 3 phase as running 2 metres is quite expensive 3. Is using the 3 phase in this way cost effective ie. Running single phases from a 3 phase meter . Actual 3 phase not being used and nothing bigger than a rod welder , power washer and lights in the workshop and 2 electric showers and an electric oven and hob in the house ? Single phase 400 units per month 3 phase 130 units per month ?????
Also, why do people say we have 230V but we can measure plugs 250V and some people say 240V. I know the Chinese make manufacturers make sstuff that can take pretty much any voltage.
the differences depend on how far away from your grid you are, it can drop as low as 220 V in places (generally very rural areas) also, the Chinese made products generally say they can take most voltages but they really wouldn't be able to, I've seen cables burn up because of incorrect ratings etc...
Can someone please explain to me why you short out the 3 phases with that bit of busbar? I'm training to be an electrician and I'm just curious
It's done in this example at it was being connected to a single phase supply, so the 1 incoming phase is connected to all 3 in the board.
For a 3 phase application, the link would NOT be installed, each of the 3 separate phases connects to it's own terminal.
Thank you mate, Ive actually been working on the panels myself so its all 3 phase, in college for the apprenticeship at the moment but the domestic/industrial stuff is very new to me, I must have been half asleep watching the video to not pick up it was being connected to a single phase. Thank you very much for your reply It's much appreciated!
nice but you should have made it more real by using wires or connecting them either. nice work kudoss to you
I'm starting a project where the customer has 24 RCB's spread over 3 consumer units (single phase) from the 70's - The idea of using a single 8 ways 3 Phase distribution board is VERY appealing - Is Eaton the only brand you would recommend when it comes to this kind of 3 Phase to Single Phase conversion? Do Crabtree and the likes offer the same, seemingly simple solution that you demonstrated here?
Most other manufacturers make similar things, the principle is the same.
One thing to be aware of is that 3 phase boards are normally supplied with just the busbars fitted, so you will need to buy the appropriate incoming switch, single phase connector bars and any other parts required as separate items.
I've been looking around, and like you say most other suppliers require other 'bits' that you need knowledge of. The Eaton has a very neat kit (as you demonstrated) where as the likes of Hager make it a little more complicated.... I'll conduct a little more research, but looks like the Eaton Memshield for me (unless you have a setup video if the Hager 3 phase distribution board).
Hi JW, just an observation that unless skilled or instructed persons- 3 phase 4 pole with switched neutral as far as we are aware ( without reaching for BS7671)
One of our recent inspection jobs a memshield DB they decided to fit 30ma rcd on a large three phase board- rather than 4 pole switch and RCBO's (cost) also no accounting for de rating factors in trunking.
While we like the quality of MEM, as series change older breakers become more expensive to source- unless you know of another manufacturer MCB that will fit.
Just off the cuff comments, thank you for video's as always
0:59 surprised Pikachu face
is there a device that allows me to switch 3 phase to two different directions?
Yes, a 4 pole changeover switch. One example: www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CGCS1004P.html
i have 3 phase ac, my dad instaled it when he build house, is thare any advantages over single phase i dont use lot of electricity?
+mmartin Only advantage is if you want to use 3 phase equipment. Otherwise it's just 3 single phase supplies.
Can the house outlets use three phase if they normally use one phase? I'm assuming you could send just one phase to each outlet. Is this acceptable?
If you wire in a separate radial circuit for each outlet you can, indeed, use all the phases. It's actually good practice to try and balance the phases, although in a typical domestic setting it won't make two much difference. However, it's more important in large industrial installations. The point about balancing the phases is to minimise the amount of current going down the neutral back to the local power distribution network. In the local distribution network where single phases are supplied to households the local distribution network will be set up to balance those by premises.
@Indosarnia In which case you need to speak to the Germans or any of the other European countries that provide three phase power to domestic properties as part of their standard electrical distribution system.
I don't see where the "touching distance" is an issue as it's difficult to imagine a scenario where somebody would be able to touch two different phases at the same time except within the distribution panel or an exposed three phase power connector.
Of course, in the UK single phase is almost universal in for domestic supplies, but with the move to EVs and away from gas heating in the future, then it's possible 100A single phase may not be sufficient, particularly if there are multiple EV charging points.
What about five phase power? Is there a five phase panelboard?
Theoretically possible to have any number of phases, but it's generated as 3 phase so that is what you get.
It is explained here:
czcams.com/video/HqZtptHnC2I/video.html
Why is this in HD only? It's unwatchable for us with UK standard rural internet connections
+PetergdWard HD is the upload format, others are available once CZcams has processed them, which may take a while.
+John Ward Oh, I see, I'm just too quick today. Thanks.
I'm sorry but that neutral link connection _must_ be straightened properly to satisfy my OCD here. If only I could reach into CZcams with my PZ2...
Curious question: Is there any reason 3-phase dis. boards generally don't switch the neutral on the incomer compared to domestic C.U. that typically does? Would it be expected to have a separate 4-pole isolation device installed in situations where a 3-phase dis. is fed direct from the mains?
And whilst we're here, arguments on whether MCBs should switch towards or away from board centre. I've come across too many that, in my mind, have had the MCBs installed backwards (towards the centre for 'ON'), which has thrown up all-sorts of questions in my head with regards MCB design and logical reasoning. I think it may even be manufacturer specific, where some design for switching inwards, and some outwards. I don't tend to see 'Line/Load' markings on MCBs, either, just to make matters worse.
Even worse, I have come across these DB's with MCB's switching in both directions. I have so many arguments with Sparks about this when I do inspections. The RCBO's only fit in one direction, so let that be your guide if you fit them. Switching away from the spine for "ON", so fit the MCB'S the same way.
Here's a challenge: Can someone count how many times JW says "phase" in this video? :)
I counted "phase" 35 times and "phases" 13 times... Total phase count: 48. You're welcome :)
Yes... It is a very slow day :)
+Steve Brace I counted the same.
Man, we sure are bored.
+Steve Brace Hmm, I counted 14 phases and 35 phase (singular)... now I have to watch it again :D
+drkastenbrot ROTFL :)
+TheChipmunk2008 Don't make me watch it a third time :)
GOT IT only single phase going in. I am an idiot.
Reading some of these comments scares me.
Playing with 400 volts is NOT something you can do after just watching a video.
Leave TPN work to people who have been professionally trained.
Had to watch to make it 666 views. Ofcourse, would of watched anyway, John.
WHY do YOU talk like THIS