I convinced four reviewers to blind test USB cables!
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- Thank you to @cheapaudioman, @JilesMcCoy and Lam Seng Fatt from www.av2day.com/
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Four of us reviewers gathered in the AA Audio room at the Northern International AV Show in Penang, Malaysia to test our skills in a USB blind listening test. Check out the results!
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WiiM Pro - $168 - amzn.to/4bpTDOw
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Schiit Bifrost 2/64 - $799 - www.schiit.com/products/bifro...
Gustard R26 - $1,650 - amzn.to/3QyZ0mB
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Aune S17 Pro - $699 - amzn.to/4a75v7b
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Burson Audio Voyager - $5,300+ - bit.ly/4a8Mwcq
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Moondrop Dawn Pro - $50 - amzn.to/3y2dd57
Simgot DEW4X - $80 - amzn.to/4b68rlK
Questyle M15i - $349 - amzn.to/4doMSyp
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Soundpeats Air3 Deluxe - $40 - amzn.to/3UIXQr4
Soundpeats Air4 Pro - $79 - amzn.to/3Wyj4tj
Edifier Neobuds Pro 2 - $130 - amzn.to/3WwMpEf
Sennheiser Momentum 4 - $379.95 - amzn.to/3WrEqZ0
HiFiMan Svanar Wireless - $499 - amzn.to/4amOhmx
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00:00 Introduction
01:12 The setup
02:16 Results #1
04:04 The problem
05:22 Preferences
06:01 Attempt #2
08:53 Results #2
09:38 Preferences & conclusions
#audiophile #audioreview
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/48PxwspDvrE/mqdefault.jpg)
Since I print my essays through my $12000 USB cable, I’ve found metaphors feel truer. Ambient descriptions are a bit clearer, as if colours were more vivid, painting a more realistic scene. And sarcasm comes out more subtle.
LOL you better upgrade that cable to something that makes your sarcasm even more subtle. Surely something's wrong with this one.
at that price that cable better write my thesis for me
@@mrpeterfromgodknowswhere His sarcasm is almost imperceptible to me, thanks to my 7-core double-silvered wifi radio cable
@@frankwales I run 10 gauge solid cobber for all my digital connections. Maybe that's why I see so much stupid stuff on the internet?
I'll try to put them on cable risers to see if it gets better.
@@kato2395 it makes chatGPT smarter too.
What your tests really did was point out just how unreliable subjective reviewers are.
7/16 then 9/16. That's exactly random, what you'd expect if you hadn't listened to them at all. Which correlates exactly with not being able to hear any difference but having to choose between two options. Bravo for doing the test.
That is not the conclusion from those results. This is not flipping a coin where you have ONE process that yields TWO results (either the coin flipped or it stayed the same). This is human subjective testing and observation... One metaphor MIGHT be (which has flaws as well) trying to hit a target versus landing in empty space. Whether you are throwing water balloons or darts, or shooting arrows or a gun, there are infinite possibilities for what might happen which are NOT the intended result (ie, you miss) and also infinite but incredibly smaller possibilities for what might happen which ARE the intended results. In this test, the test conditions, human biology (ear-to-brain as organs), and human training as to how to understand the test (seems like they used real music which already requires a very high bar in brain development, and not simple test tones which would have been a low bar for even brain-less organisms to respond to) all make this a test of infinite possibilities, even if the results are simplified to a binary result (ie, did you hit the target or did you miss it, not how close to the bulls-eye did you get). Bravo for trying to understand statistics.
The cable manufacturer making the switch is the same as a wolf guarding the sheep.
Well, what could he do to affect the results? Add chewing gum to the connection?
@@patbarr1351 actually, there are subtle cues that can be picked up on that people don't even realise they're giving off. Like a bit more enthusiasm in "What did you think of this cable?" vs "I just switched it again."
I thought that too, but the test was pretty inconclusive, so if he did try to mess with the results, he failed
If you sum both tests the result is 16/32 ... exactly the same as if you tossed a coin to determine your response. Someone better tell Jays Audio lab he just wasted $100k on sighted placebo effect.
He's wasted more than that... just think not all the people who have bought based on his opinion and personality...
This test had lots of flaws. It was fun but I wouldn't put too much weight into it.
Not exactly true because some of the testers were better than 50%, at least one was consistently worse than 50%.
This brought the average to average overall.
@ScottoGrotto some will always be better or worse than average just by chance. it means nothing on such a small number of tests. you will get the same distribution even if you toss a coin. you need at least 15 to 20 tests for any kid of statistical significance at all so only the overall result is viable for analysis and that shows no significant result.
Both of these last statements hold truth. The reality is that we had WAY too few samples to ever reach anything statistically significant. At the same time, we also had one reviewer who came in with an expectation of not hearing any differences so his results were consistently skewed to the negative (i.e. not hearing a difference no matter what).
In other words, don't waste money on Audiophile USB cables.
Exactly. (Unless they are gold plated, have diamond fiber windings and have been destatified with asteroids of course).
Don't waste money on ANY cables...
I bet you have nothing
@@yourtubisfilled7164 Dont diss my gold plating. It gives a nice look and durability.
@@bryanp4827 Then what do I plug everything together with?
Can't reliably notice a difference, yet you have a preference... Ok🙄
so that cable is not worth 600 dollars, clearly
No, that test was incredibly flawed and doesn't tell us much of anything, but it was lots of fun. 🙂
Aren't all your tests singing the praises of high end USB leads "incredibly flawed and don't tell us much of anything"?
Lachlan, it would be good to see these blind tests conducted with speaker and power cables, maybe isolation accessories too.
I'd love to do that, and might have an idea of how to do it too...
This applies to that $5 printer cable -
"USB (Universal Serial Bus) cables use a few different techniques to reject noise and interference, which helps ensure reliable data transfer. Here are some of the main ways USB cables reject noise:
Twisted Pair Wiring: USB cables use twisted pair wiring for the data lines. By twisting the wires together, any external electromagnetic interference tends to induce equal but opposite currents in the two wires, which effectively cancels out the noise.
Shielding: Most USB cables have an outer shield or braided mesh that surrounds the twisted pairs. This shield acts as a Faraday cage, blocking external electromagnetic interference from reaching the data lines inside the cable.
Ground Return Path: USB cables have a dedicated ground wire that provides a return path for any induced currents or noise. This ground helps drain off any noise currents, preventing them from interfering with the data signals.
Differential Signaling: USB uses differential signaling, where two wires carry the inverse of each other's signal. A receiver at the other end only looks at the difference between the two signals. Any common-mode noise that affects both wires equally gets canceled out.
Data Encoding: USB uses non-return-to-zero-inverted (NRZI) encoding for the data, which helps reject common-mode noise by ensuring the signal transitions between 1 and 0 frequently.
Error Checking: USB packets include cyclic redundancy checks (CRCs) that allow the receiver to detect and discard any packets corrupted by noise during transmission.
By combining techniques like twisted pairs, shielding, differential signaling, and data encoding/checking, USB cables can effectively reject a significant amount of external noise and interference, enabling reliable high-speed data transfer over these cables."
I love proper ABX testing, is entertaining to watching "experts" fail to accurately 100% of the time notice A) if there are differences, B) what those differences are and C) what differences heard one prefers the sound of and why. Is why that 1 or 2 million dollar cable challenge from years ago still has never been completed. Human imperfection until the end of time and arrogance in relation to over stating our own limited abilities.
The thing about analogue noise on a digital cable is that as long as the noise level is not high enough to flip bits or require error correction/retransmission it can be ignored.
No one has ever submitted a million dollar challenge on cables lmao, you have literally zero sources for that bullshit
There was million dollar bet on digital cable. The amazing meeting. Everyone failed miserably. Even the cable maker.
@GuyDawson that's actually not accurate because it can affect the clock accuracy of the downstream device. See Alpha Audio's test of network switches and the noise rejected/isolated, etc. by them for objective evidence of this.
@@PassionforSound on USB audio 2.0 it wont. Clocking is done in DAC. USB audio 1.0 can be affected and jitter is a thing. But not in 2.0
I used to do crazy things while drunk too, Welcome aboard!
😂🤣
Now make same test with free usb cable collected from some scrabyard VS 1000$ cable. No one will be able to tell difference
There's a legendary coat hanger Vs audiophile speaker cable test. 😂😂😂 You can guess the result.
I've found blind testing quite helpful. You really learn about the power of imagination, and if you are open to accepting the results it's informative and can help make some purchases more advisedly. In the early 2000s I had a selection of expensive AC cables to try out from probably the most well known AC cable manufacturer. The cables had of course been raved up by audiophiles and press. I didn't feel I heard a difference with two of them, but one, the thickest and most expensive, I felt SURE it changed the sound of my system - more lush, darker...to the point I wasn't even sure I liked the sound of my system with that cable. But, also aware of the variable of sighted bias I had an engineer help me blind test that expensive cable against an off the shelf $15 AC cable. Result? When I didn't know which cable I was listening to, the differences vanished. There was no "darker, lusher" signature to latch on to at all. Results were random guesses. That was educational, and saved me a bunch of money! I did some blind testing of DACs and CDPs and in that case was able to easily tell differences in blind testing. Likewise, recently I blind tested my tube preamp vs my Benchmark solid state preamp, and easily identified the tube preamp in blind testing. So it's not like blind testing results are always negative and it "removes the ability to hear actual differences."
I also in the 2000s tested a range of analog video cables, from cheap to medium price, to pro grade all the way up to Nordost. Once again...I felt SURE I was seeing better picture quality with the Nordost. But when I blind tested (and did this test with others)....no difference. Results were random. As in fact electronics theory predicts.
I also blind tested my music servers. I had been using iTunes on a Mac as my music server for years (ripped lossless CDs) and then switched to a raspberry Pi based server. Both going in to my Benchmark DAC. When I switched to the Raspberry Pi I perceived that the sound seemed a bit on the bright side, more brittle. I was disheartened because I wasn't expecting any sonic change at all. But there it was. However, once again, knowing about sighted bias and knowing that technically this was implausible I decided to have a friend help me blind test between them (very easy doing blind testing in my system, as all my amplification and source equipment is in a separate room from my speakers). And, once again, as soon as I didn't know which server I was hearing, there was no difference detectable. No extra brightness or brittleness to distinguish one from another. Guesses were random. This helped me put the issue behind me, and it wasn't long before I realized actually, yeah, my system sounded the same as ever with the new server. This was so helpful because if I were strictly in the Golden Ear camp thinking that "hearing always trumps theory or blind testing" then I could have gone down the rabbit hole of testing different servers trying to find "The one that sounded better." Instead, I was relieved of that distraction and could just enjoy my system secure that blind test results were in line with how digital devices actually work.
There is no doubt that the brain plays tricks on us and we need to account for that. I don't believe that blind testing is the only solution and long delays between hearing devices can make discerning small differences tricky, but I definitely believe we need to find ways to negate the impacts of bias and expectations from comparisons as best we can.
@@PassionforSound The best way "to negate the impacts of bias and expectations" is blind testing, looking for problems with blind testing, after it showed a 50/50 split in your own tests, won't change the facts!
I'm not suggesting that the blind element was a problem. I'm talking about the delays between samples in this type of setup.
It's just 0s and 1s. What kind of an idiot does one need to be to believe in a difference in usb cables???
It's more than 1's & 0's. There can be timing errors & other distortions. Better to listen for differences (if any) then work backwards to get a real understanding.
@@patbarr1351 it's digital. What timing errors and distortions are you talking about?!
@@loudnoise1156 I do sometimes hear a difference and other knowledgable folks often report this as well. The only time it's a 1 or a 0 is in pure mathematics. Putting data through a physical device is unlikely to yield a perfect result. Can you correct for errors later? Yes, and that's another area designers deal with.
@@patbarr1351 of course it's pure mathematics, that's the way digital signal works. Saying you hear a difference with different USB cables is like saying "I see the difference in pictures transferred from my phone to my computer with different USB cables". Please stop buying (or selling?) USB snake oil.
@@loudnoise1156 I'm not selling anything. You are making assumptions without experience. I'm simply reporting my own experience, which is the purpose of an open forum.
Randy in Malaysia? My my, how we've come up in the world.
Great video! Hope you will make videos like this! It’s brave and fun! 😂
Any chance I get, I'll try something like this
And shoot himself in the other foot?
Kudos for de video and sticking your neck out like this. Regardless of the results being within range of a coin toss, I think it is a valid effort and makes for entertaining content. Laughed my socks off with th 3 cables 😅. Well done!
I'm glad you enjoyed it. It pretty quickly became clear to me that this was an entertainment video only and not particularly scientific, but I'm glad people are having a laugh with us. 🙂
Think of the analog noise rejection of things like shielding, isolation and twisted pairing in both ethernet and balanced XLR cables, then add in the digital aspect. If your DAC isn't doing it's job at that point, then no pseudo crap cable is going to fix it.
Love this topic, thanks Lachlan!
Love that Cheap Randy Audio Man was part of this!
One thing with digital cables, if the signal is “rebuilt “ at the dac, the cable delta may be less noticeable.
From a listening pov, the more you can keep your mind blank and just listen is helpful.
It seemed Randy had a higher percentage of correct answers?
He seemed to focus on specific elements like triangles sounding 3d.
Getting familiar with a system first may help distinguish differences.
In my own system, it seems quite apparent when changes are made.
I was part of an impromptu listening test at a high end audio store in Calgary years ago. The owner played a cd, then sanded the back of the disc with the idea that the four others present might hear an improvement.
None of the four of us heard a difference.
The owner was a golden eared type, so we may not have been on his level?
But there was agreement among the other audiophiles present :)
The 3 cable wild card element is interesting.
Interesting on the impact of proper impedance!
Interesting that later in the show Randy preferred the not cheap cable!
Perhaps after tuning into more refined systems for awhile his listening preferences changed a bit?
Not changing seats probably better as that becomes another variable.
I think one variable is ideal, especially if there are tracks that you’re not familiar with.
😃
Yes. We were making a lot of this up as we went so it was a pretty flawed test, but lots and lots of fun!
Bravo to all, well done for participating to this "risky" test. I got the impression that the differences were rather small
Yes, the differences are always very small with cables. This test had lots of issues that prevent it from being particularly scientific, but I hope it was still a fun watch 🙂
"But these 1s and 0s are in a different font" lol
Don't waste your money.
How can he keep on promoting audiophile USB cables, after that?
The only cables I use are made from unicorn tail plucked during a full blood moon. I enjoy the sound with a tall glass of snake oil.
You couldn’t afford the more expensive ones made from the unicorns mane? You don’t know what you’re missing 😂
I don't think I've heard as many audiophile buzzwords ever in a single vid.
I am glad we all had fun doing this.
Me too, Anwar! Thanks so much for allowing such shenanigans in your room at the show! 😂
Reputable sound studios like THX and Abbey Road likely prioritize other factors over expensive USB cables for jitter reduction due to several reasons:
* High-end Equipment: Professional studios typically invest in high-quality digital-to-analog converters (DACs) with precision clocking and built-in jitter reduction circuitry. These components effectively minimize jitter without relying solely on USB cables.
* Focus on Entire Signal Chain: Jitter can be introduced at various stages throughout the audio signal chain, not just USB connections. Studios address jitter comprehensively by optimizing the entire signal path, including high-quality internal components and digital connections.
* Minimal Impact on Consumer Listening: Most commercially available music is delivered in compressed formats that inherently introduce limitations that outweigh the subtle effects of jitter for most listeners.
In conclusion, while jitter reduction is crucial in professional settings, expensive USB cables likely offer minimal benefits compared to a well-designed DAC and optimized signal chain. Studios prioritize these aspects for achieving the highest fidelity audio reproduction."
This was a lot of fun, and I love the lighthearted presentation 😅
So glad you enjoyed it!
I feel good about my amazon cables now
One thing is clear. The differences are so small we must weigh the sanity of buying the $600 vs $5 cable. If 2 amps were as close sounding at the same prices…😂
Haha. That's a very interesting point!
I think it's perfectly fine to have a good time doing experiments like this, even though I am firmly in the camp of digital wires have no sound. I am sure I would think I heard differences at times as well.
Respect for doing this!
I always buy two $1200 usb cables, in case one wears out from the strain .
The optical isolator makes it so it doesnt matter what cable you use as long as its built to spec.
The impedance wont matter for buffered inputs unless its so far out of spec it leads to drop outs. This is why worrying about clocking for USB input is silly.
Clocks for digital will only matter with DDC converting to I2S and having a master/slave clock to choose from. And even then, it's distinction without a difference unless you can also slave the DAC to the clock on the DDC not merely choose the upstream/downstream clock for the data stream.
Anyways! Cool seeing Randy in one of your videos 😁
So, if the manufacturer had told y'all about having that 3rd exact to USB spec cable BEFORE testing, you could have done additional rounds and found true control tests.
I think the best takeaway here is that any properly functioning USB cables should sound the same, however, it cannot be ruled out that out of spec cables compared to true to spec cables MAY have an audible difference.
We knew he had the perfect 90 ohm cable, but wanted to just compare the printer cable and the aftermarket cable. All three technically meet specs though as there is an accepted range of tolerance either side of the 90 ohm ideal.
Very nice video. I will watch some more
So the results were 16/32 ovreall, which shows no one could hear any difference at all, but some also say they had a "preference". How can one prefer one sound over another when they can't even tell the difference between the two sounds? The answer, it's the human brain. We hear with our brains, not our ears. I like to think of it as our ears just being the input(like a mic), but then that input is run through a DSP device(our brains), and the output of from that DSP device is what we actually "hear". We can see from measurements(which "hear" thousands of time better than human ears) that basically all cables(not just USB) have no way of affecting the sound waves that hit are ear drums; what they can do though is affect that DSP that those sound waves go through, and that's how they actually can change the sound. Doing a proper ABX or ABCX(like the first run) just eliminates that brain DSP.
BTW the same thing is true for DACs. We now have $200 DACs that are audibly PERFECT. to well beyond the limits of human hearing. Beyond that you're paying for features, reliability, appearance, and improved brain dsp(product of the price and marketing).
Great video and tests. It just goes to show (and sorry to say this) but not all reviewers know what they're talking about BUT. You use your own ears for the cable(s) that sound the best to you. I see some reviewers (and that I have a lot of respect for) recommend AQ cables. I've had a lot of them in my systems and for the money, they're not worth it. As there are better (to my ears) than AQ for less money.
I'd love to see reviewers state what they heard (or didn't) in their tests and at the end, not recommend or recommend the cable. Same with all equipment.
So, in saying all that. I really loved this video as it really does show how people hear in certain systems and no manufacture paid anyone to be biased in the tests. Wish we could ♥ this video, as it would be the 1st one to get one. Great work Lachlan, absolutely LOVED this. We need more like it
I hope to have a chance to do this again with a better setup one day, but with multiple reviewers (or other volunteers) because it's lots of fun.
@@PassionforSound I'll be in Melbourne for my birthday 25 to 27 May. Happy to volunteer 🤣🤣🤣🤣
But in all seriousness. Can't wait for the next one mate.
Hiliarious! Just laughed when the "3 cables...say what now!?!" moment happened. Brilliant!😂
Boys with toys! Looks like you all had tons of fun.
We sure did! 😁
This I liked, thanks for sharing the video, it does highlight the fact that upgrading cables should be the last thing you do after the rest of the system is in tip top shape. I've seen super cheap USB cables rust on their end fitting after a few years on the cost, so longevity even if it's just ones and zeros still matter, at what level it matters depends on the person and piece of equipment they might be trying to protect.
I have done tests like this before and with extended listening. My personal rule is that if I have to think hard about whether I hear a difference, there isn’t one. There are a few occasions when I heard or saw a clear difference. That was repeatable and I picked a consistent winner. Those I bought.the rest were returned.
... so at the bottom line we customers make a choise about cable based on (not-guilty) unreliable cable review... most of the time... at least when about usb cables
These types of tests (i.e. delays between switching samples, low number of data points, etc.) don't tell us much and that's why I still choose to prefer extended listening sessions (sighted or blind) and subjective discussion about cable influences so it's not so much that the reviews are unreliable as that the topic is subjective and with MANY variables to consider.
lol now do 599.99 usd power cables
I recommend just using an all-in-one DAC/AMP. When I swapped usb cables with my Schiit Fulla or Hel with headphones, the differences were night/day noticeable. In fact I ended up returning the more expensive AQ Cinnamon cable in that particular test I did as I felt it was too piercing in the highs and sucked out the bass compared to the stock cable. Though I do use many of AQ’s other usb cable offerings.
Awesome isea!
This is the kind of thing is great.
I think here is the psycoacoustic beats strong.
Honestly brave video to post. Kudos on that. honestly I’d chalk it up it up to placebo, but it’s always fun to watch these types of videos. Still blown away by Goldens abx dac video, even if it probably doesnt apply to us normal humans with normal hearing. Lol😂
he was not testing DACS but different filters of HQPlayer. His title is misleading.
GoldenSounds video wasn't amazing at all. And he didn't compare different DACs.
@@IHearEverythingDude right
@@mccririck01 Bro, I'm referring to the fact he can hear above 20k and managed 18 out of 20. That's impressive no matter which way you slice it, IMO. I've never seen anyone prove they can hear the differences in general dac filters. Why do you care if other people are impressed by it, anyway? LOL
@@andrewgiovannini6613 some people can hear above 20kHz. I certainly used to be able to when I was 18. I think think he proved much, and the title of the video was clickbait.
Are there really still people who think that a digital cable can influence the sound quality? If one or two bits were missing somewhere, or a 1 was converted to a 0, it would audibly click or crack and you wouldn't be able to listen to music with this system.
Cables have been proven (with measurements conducted by Alpha Audio) to influence the clock in the downstream device by carrying noise from the environment into the device so it's not just about dropped data.
It's using square waves... How could environmental noise influence the signal? The processor only cares about converting square waves into bits
it's not about the bits, they are untouched. it's whatever noise is carried through any analog interaction.
Awesome!
If there is no measurable difference, if there is no difference in the transported bits and if there no is no difference in blind listening, why do you keep on reviewing?
There is no difference.
As Einstein said, "repeating experiments just in the hope for different results, is stupid"
You're overlooking two things:
1) when differences are heard, we're not repeating the same thing over and over
2) the measurements we have are still limited in all areas of audio so there's not yet definitive evidence of what makes a system create a deeper soundstage, how much noise a USB cable is transferring into the DAC and exactly what the impact of that noise is, etc.
If we're going to bring Einstein into it, I think he'd encourage curiosity and exploration.
I think you really need to ensure there's no noise coming in from the mains input, that could easily confuse any results. It would have been better to have both cables active to identical DACs then just A/B switched with a phono switcher. For me I always split the power out of a USB connection and feed in a regulated 5V from a linear PSU instead of the noisy 5V from my mini PC I use.
I agree. A pair of identical DACs and switching the input on the preamp is how I'd like to get this set up one day
I love this spicy comment section. How to create comment engagement? Create ABX blind test video, upload to YT, crack knuckles and wait for 1000's of notifications. Well played 👌🤣
You're onto me! 😂🤣
I always felt USB cables in itself were the problem due to them being a transmission line. The best is no cable which I realised with the Uptone USPCB A to B adapters. They feel totally neutral than any of the USB cables I had. Of course, these adapters are hard to work with due to the small size.
Probably the difference between well-made USB cables is minimal or unnoticeable regardless of the price, unless the cable is of poor quality or really poorly made.
There are definite differences, based on my experiences, but those differences are hard to pick in this type of setup due to the delays between test samples. We need to do this again with a better testing setup.
With one of my USB cables, you can listen to music indefinitely, the other stops after 10-20 minutes. So there is a HUGE difference between USB cables!
Nice to see you trying to do some blind testing, don't get to disappointed when you find the truth about cable's.....
Great testing…….👍🤚
In my personal experience: Cables: $5 OEM printer cable, $25 iFi cable, Audioquest Diamond USB. The song "In the Country" on Chicago II FLAC has got either a recording or mixing defect whereas with the OEM it's almost unlistenable during the bass solo. The iFi cable almost takes covers (or resolves or whatever) the issue by maybe 80%, but it's still obviously present. With the AQ Diamond, the defect is not present.
I don't hear a difference in quality or soundstage beyond this, but that Diamond is a $700 cable solved the defect. I got it "open box" for like $300. I have heard the defect on other FLAC files, this is the one with which I was most familiar. I'm not even sure what this defect is; could it be jitter? Not sure. But, the AQ solved the issue.
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7:36 Link to or brand model of the signal isolator?
Thank-you
It's from MSB and designed specifically for their DACs
@@PassionforSound Got it. Thanks again.
It looks like you blind tested the USB cables using the Focal Utopia Diablo speakers, which have a retail price of $30k in Australia, so given these speakers use the same tweeter and midrange in the higher end siblings of the utopia range, it wad a sufficiently detailed, resolute speaker to do such a test with.
I'd bet headphones would have a better chance of being more revealing
Definitely and no issues with where you sit 🙂
The 90 ohm cable twist in first part the story needs a little more exploring because if we are buying out of spec usb cables with no adherence to standard, this may be a smoking gun on why cables may have a perceivable difference. Imagine if we are using faulty cables and hearing the errors as good or bad.
I don't think it's going to make any difference to the sound. If it did those differences would be measurable at the DAC output.
@mccririck01 @mccririck01 Yea, personally, I have only heard a difference between shielded and non shielded but now I am thinking of checking for correct impedance also.
Interestingly, some of the cables I like the most are actually out of spec (but still work consistently) so there is 100% something to this that I need to explore further.
@@PassionforSound I doubt that.
Usb is 90 ohms differential impedance. If any cable markets itself as 90Ohm is bullshit since 90 ohms is the usb spec impedance.
I tried a few USB cables (non-blind listening) when I 1st got my Chord Mojo (the original using the old micro USB connector). Oddly, they all sounded pretty much alike except one from AudioQuest, one of the nicer ones but not too expensive. That one was my least favorite every time I returned to it! I also tried a more exotic one crafted by a guy in New Zealand which sounded about the same as the inexpensive one provided in the box by Chord.
I've found some expensive ones that have sounded worse too!
If nothing is changed and you hear a difference(which everyone experiences), is when you understand that even a blind test is mostly pointless.
The human brain is the weak link.
Hearing memory is pretty short. A good control blind test listening experiment is hard to conduct.Great respect for conducting this test. Though the result shows there's not much change in sound by the USB cable.
Kudos, for performing blind testing. Even if not rigidly controlled, it's what this hobby needs more of. Look forward to someone picking up the blind testing ball and running with it. 👍
I hope to do more with better setups in the future because, if nothing else, it's good fun 🙂
great test though I'm positive all the perceived differences are placebo. Since USB is digital data, it either arrives or it doesn't, if the signal is affected in any way it will be a very obvious glitch or complete dropout rather than a subtle coloration of the frequency response.
i bet if you dont xhange anything, they will still hear differences 😂
I think this proves the point they make no difference.
And if you understand how digital information works it should come as no surprise. So long as it operates corectly and within spec. It doesn't matter.
It's 1's and 0's. It is a discreet digital signal. It works till it is out of spec and then you get a corupted signal. it doesn't need to be a perfect signal, it just needs to differentiate between a 1 and 0.
It is not like an anolog waveform that has a million variables that incrementally degrade the signal.
Thats how our digital files get transimited all across the world, copied and shared millions of times all bit perfect with abesolutely zero loss.
Right there should be good enough reason to know that USB cables do not matter.
Do this with ABYSS SUPERCONDUCTOR 1200$ cable so you can finally takedown that company lol😂
Lachlan is it flawed just because the result aren’t what you expect or wanted?
No, it's flawed for many reasons:
1) insufficient sample size (number of people and/or rounds) for any statistical significance
2) the delay between samples was too long for any accuracy with what we were heading
3) unless you were the person sitting front and centre, you couldn't properly perceive and staging changes because the staging was consistently off
4) in round 3 of the second attempt, Anwar had to skip into the track so we started at different places for the two samples (i.e. samples were not identical)
5) the DAC was isolating a key influence of USB cables in attempt 2 - the noise transferred from the cable into the DAC can be a significant and measurable factor
That hopefully gives you a sense of where I'm coming from. I have no vested interest in proving in either direction: I enjoy the exploration. I'd gladly make a video all about how I was wrong for so many years if I could setup a truly solid test that proved it was all in my head. On the other hand, that same setup might prove that cables really are making a difference. Either way, we don't yet have a solid enough listening test setup to say...
@@PassionforSound A simple test at home with a friend to help would be a piece of cake to prove to yourself if you were truly honest with yourself (and subscribers).
I know you did a video blind testing usb cables in the past which was also not conclusive, this test was also flawed. I can’t find any blind test that has successfully found any differences with usb cables, you may be the very first! Good Luck.
I have so much more respect for these guys doing this. This is how audio tests should be done.
It's far from how it "should be done" at least they can laugh at failure.
@@chefsteve8381 The only failure here is being bias based on what one sees rather than simply listening if it's audible. It's all about listening. I think all these guys deserve a round of applause for having the courage to share this. I really respect them more for doing so. There's nothing wrong with failure. I've failed blind tests as well.
The failures really began in the setup of the test and having to pause to switch cables, etc. It was still lots of fun though and I wanted to share that side of it to take some of the heat out of the topic (which may or may not have worked, based on the comments section) 😉
these people cant even tell a bad speaker apart from a good one, and their idea is to blindtest usb cables? lol. the entire channel is loaded with absolute nonsense.
Comparative testing of audio equipment, blind or otherwise, will always involve pauses between tests, your test might not have been perfect, but it's still telling, and definitely turned up the heat,
I'm glad you had lots of fun!
Good on you for posting this! It would have been all too easy to just decline to put this on CZcams. Kudos for openness and transparency! Also, that optical interface obviously negates that second test, and I do think it sort of shoots his credibility in the foot as a USB cable designer if he is telling you to compare cables while running them through a device that is purpose-built to eliminate the main issue with substandard USB cables… Anyway, this is how these things go: we listen, test, draw conclusions, spend a ton of time on these sorts of issues, realize there was a flaw in methodology, rinse and repeat.
There are many factors that could mess up a test like this. The first one that comes to mind is the possibility of constantly changing mains noise. Most pieces of Hi Fi equipment both inject noise into the mains and are affected by noise from the mains. The mains is also polluted by anything else that may be being used at any time. So unless this possible variable is controlled the SQ could be being changed in a completely unknown way that could sway these results to the extent that the results become completely meaningless.
Yes, this test was FAR from well controlled. Hopefully it was fun to watch the video though 🙂
I would’ve been interested to see how the Tubulus compares to the SIG.
That full review is coming... 🙂
Now this was really good, lots of humour and banter, I would of liked to have been there.
On a serious note though, I'm glad you did a blind test like this one, it shows a 50% chance of actually reliably noticing any differences in USB cables though minute they were... maybe... From what I've seen, the results were inconclusive in actually determining the sound quality impact of a USB cable, your results have shown that there was very little evidence or consistently in determining any real differences between the cables through the first half or so.
Just think what it would be like if reviewers actually applied this testing methodology to other pieces of equipment.
Thanks (to you all) though, I really enjoyed it and it was really helpful. Love the banta.
We definitely had a LOT of fun and I'm glad you enjoyed the video. The test was very flawed so the results don't mean a lot, but I thought it was worth sharing for the laughs.
For headset testing can easily tell the difference. Speaker abit difficult for me
Guess you posted your April 1st video a bit late.
That was funny😁
Check out Rob Watts canjam nyc 2024 seminar. He's designed your favorite DAC and he clearly says (and has it on the powerpoint on screen) not to buy audiophile USB cables. He does a great job of explaining why they sound different but then also articulates why that different sound is worse not better. Next rabbit hole - car battery power supply :-() I recently a/b'd my mojo2 and gustard A26 through my Violectric as it has a nice input toggle switch and i could volume match the mojo via it's volume control. Was surprised how close the two were and left me wondering why I spent so much more on the Gustard... but then I had a thought iphone>mojo2>amp had the player and dac on battery power, PC>gustard>amp probably has the worst of what we can give a DAC in terms of USB signal noise. So if we loop back to USB cables the obvious here is to test cable differences on a battery powered source>dac and then see if there's any difference in the cable. Probably we need to fix a different problem than the cable, certainly Rob thinks so.
I love Rob's products, deeply respect his knowledge in the field and like him as a person, but I don't always 100% trust some of his declarations. He's done a few backflips in the past on power supplies and BNC cables so it might be that what he says is true based on our current understanding of certain elements of USB transmission, but it's also possible that new understanding will emerge in time.
That said, I've recently discovered that some of the USB cables I really like are actually slightly out of spec (not close enough to 90 ohms) so there also might be something to it... We'll see...
Yeah thats the way 👍
The only way is to do it blind, otherwise it's just nonsense. No reason not to do a long blind test though. But any sighted test is no test....
@@BestKiteboardingOfficial blablabla
The SIg cable is the perfect 90 Ohm cable?
The SiG cables are all to USB spec, but not all are a perfect 90 ohms. I think the one we were testing was 88.2 ohms or similar. Within acceptable limits for USB certification. The perfect 90 ohm cable was one that came with a piece of test equipment of Anwar's.
@@PassionforSound Thank you! Just wondering to which cable you were referring to when you mention SIG cables in your test. If you had a recommendation for a Sig cable I could get on Amazon, great. If not, all good, thanks for all your replies. X)
The SiG cable hasn't been released just yet and it's from AA Audio in Malaysia (not on Amazon as yet)
@@PassionforSound Thank you Passion. Be kind to each other! (love your phrase).
Do you notice a difference between flac and wav? It exists, but most people seemingly cant hear it.
I've only noticed it on a specific device where the setup was optimised for WAV due to the lower processing power required to unpack it. (I.e. the system struggled with the FLAC compression rather than the formats being inherently different)
@@PassionforSound Very interesting!
ROFL. What about differences between BTRFS, ext iterations, NTFS, FAT16, 32, HFS, APFS, ReiserFS?
@@AudriusN there are differences between drives, but what can i say. ignorance is bliss😉
@@Hetsu.. You are the prime example. Spinning HDD gives warmer, vinyl like sound, right?
Don't get the point of this test at all. How can a digital signal be differently transmitted by the cable? I really would like to see someone prove this scientifically before I hit the coffin. Please use your time wisely.
Fun to watch, but I certainly don’t out much stock in such tests. Only prove how limited such tests are. There’s a reason Randy and yourself would never think to write a review on the back of such tests…
Quick A/B tests certainly have their place. I use it a lot for when I’m tweaking. But find this critical listening mindset doesn’t let my brain relax enough to feel the music
I completely agree!
May I also suggest a book that may be of interest to some viewers, "Critical Listening Skills for Audio Professionals" by F. Alton Everest. Not a bad read 👍
In the next test, I suggest transferring photos from the camera to the PC with different USB cables and then looking for the differences...
USB data and USB audio are two completely different protocols both using the same medium. You cannot compare them. Of course USB data is 100% accurate, has data integrity and error correction. Imagine sending a binary file to a USB drive and all the data become corrupt because 1 bit was interpreted incorrectly. USB audio protocol is not like that.
@@MiguelAngelVelazquez To ensure that the audio data between the player and the DAC is 100% identical, there are integrated bit tests in the professional environment (for example with the RME DACs). This allows end-to-end data integrity to be checked and guaranteed
CRC errors, internal hardware states, such as sent/received data, FIFO errors etc. should also be observed during a cable blind test.
I think it's good that the guys got involved in a blind test. But it would also be nice to discuss the technical background in more detail.
How does the USB audio connection work, what role do the drivers play, the problems with the ground loop, etc.? Maybe it will come in the next video.
fun video
I'm glad you liked it!
All this proved is that these reviewers have no idea what they're talking about and learned a bunch of snake oil marketing wank terminology. Great test on that point.
With Cheapaudioman😃cool
It would be great to see a test with "usb" x "i2s"
Both DACs used in the system (Marantz SA-10 and MSB Discrete with Pro USB + Pro ISL) do not support I2S, only galvanically-isolated USB DAC input.
LOL! Just seeing this video randomly in my stream. I thought it is a satire. This is a real stuff? 😂😂😂 Those people have probably zero clue how digital data transfer works. LMAO
Its transfering 1s and 0s, of course don't get the cheapest, but there is a price where its fine.. beyond that its stupid.
if 1 out of 5 trillion 1's or 0's get mistransmitted, it can be heard by a true Audiophile.
You only need a Supra 2.0 USB cable, because they can be longer then 5m, if needed. The shielding of these cables is superb 👌🏿 and that is most important! And last but not least: they are not expensive.
pretty sure power and usb cables don't make a difference to the sound
Worst part of the audiophile community right here. USB cables literally cannot improve audio, they just carry data!
golden ear VS engineer
@@longlifelongneture401these guys clearly don’t have ‘golden ears’ because they got a 50% hit rate
Do again with headphone!
That's a bit harder when you have to physically interact with a headphone to listen to it
@@PassionforSound True,but you also closer to the source of the sound (drivers),it can be more revealing with the good headphone.
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant to blind test the headphones. I agree that using headphones instead of speakers would work better.
@@PassionforSound Maybe!
By the way,that a good experience to see.
Just moved into a new place and opened a fresh USB C TO B cable to go between my two most recent loves: Geshelli J2 and ZMF Homage amp. Terrible noise! “Aaaack some component dropped/ruined in the move.” No, new cable was just poorly shielded and switching cables made all right again. So cable quality CAN be an issue, but “audiophile cable quality costing diamonds” MAY be a myth.
why are they all old people?
Being that the human brain has a short memory for exact sounds unless you’re doing quick A/B (one second or less ideally) comparisons it is hard to tell unless you listen to these long-term.
I agree
Stand strong, I've seen people attacking you a lot but I appreciate your courage to go against the echo chamber. I am not a believer but I always welcome people that wants to experiment!
My echo chamber is better than your echo chamber.
@@daveballard8673 yes that is the principle of echo chamber 🤣
ours always better than others
I've heard enough examples that I don't doubt the impact of the cables on sound. This test had so many holes in it that it tells us nothing beyond how much fun we had. 😁
I'll keep exploring and will one day get a setup in place that allows for a proper test with meaningful results.
@@PassionforSound yeah actually I was surprised when the forza cable I bought for my headphone does impact the sound, perhaps it is only for that particular headphone because it is a type of very transparent sounding headphone, the ATH-ADX5000. If you were to put that cable for a headphone with more character to the sound like the ZMFs I think the difference wont be that noticeable.
Fun fact that the Audio technica customer service also doesn't recommend me to change the cable because it will affect the sound they say. Did not really believe that but I was surprised that indeed it changed the sound especially on the bass region.
In my experience, everything matters to some degree in this hobby. The question comes down to if/when the degree of difference is worth worrying about