Milwaukee M12 2.5 High Output Teardown and discussion
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
- I found the new M12 High Output battery at the local HD. Let's take one apart and see how it compares to other M12 batteries.
For reference, I used an M12 soldering iron.
Details:
CP2.0: 26Wh tested, 24Wh rated. LGDAHD41865 cells
CP3.0: 35Wh tested, 36Wh rated. LGABHG21865 cells
XC3.0: 41Wh tested, 36Wh rated. Samsung 15M cells
2.5HO: 34Wh tested, 30Wh rated. Samsung 25S cells
XC6.0: 77Wh tested, 72Wh rated. Samsung 30Q cells
This channel is a good idea, theres so many misconceptions, poor information and people who boldly proclaim things they dont really understand out there. Just seeing someone working in Wh alone made me really happy. Will be following!
Thank you! The objective is to have a factual data-based discussion on performance and specifications. It’s great to hear that feedback :)
No one wants to hear what you're saying
This will blow up, I subscribed instantly. Keep going. This will blow up
Finding time to get good content is a challenge, but I appreciate your words of encouragement. Thank you!
This channel would be the perfect compliment to the torque test channel.
A deep dive into all the various batteries out there.
You have your work cut out for sure.
Nice work 👍
Haha, thanks. I copied their name :)
I need to find time to do it on top of the day job and, well, life. Some day!
Grow Grow Grow, Grasshopper! 😊
I will tell you what made these HO batteries possible. Its downgrading all new 2.0 and 4.0 packs to use chinese cells insteas of 20r cells they were using before. Suddenly HO pack with 25s cells seems like a big upgrade. I took apart many m12 packs and noticed the trend lately.
now . im using the 2.5ah and 5ah .
they have much more power than old one.
i said to my work mate " watch out for the torque on 10mm bolt or nuts.
Great video! Thank you for your work. Exactly the info I was looking for. 2.5 definitely my favorite M12 battery. I feel like the bigger ones defeat the purpose of the slim nature of M12 tools, at which point if I need a bigger battery might as well go M18 for that specific tool
Great to hear that it was helpful :)
I agree. The 2.5 packs a punch and the 6.0 is a workhorse.
Some truth there but not completely. I have both platforms M12 and M18. I find myself reaching for the M12 tools first unless I need big power, which isn't often. M12 allows me to carry more than twice as many tools in a box or bag because of that fat ass slide pack flange on the M18 tools. And pulling them out of a bag is aggravating because the battery flanges always interlock with other tools. I carry a bag of M12 batteries and a bag of tools in my truck at all times. Having the higher output of the XC packs made/makes a huge difference. The foot print of an M12 XC pack isn't even CLOSE to an m18 pack. But again, it's not so much the pack itself, when you take the battery off an M12 tool, it's tiny again and ready to pack. M18? Not so much. Don't get me wrong, I love the M18 tools. But I use the M12 stuff probably close to 90% of the time.
@@mikemorgan5015 Thanks for the perspective Mike. I don’t work with tools for a living so that’s a good point!
Learned a lot, thanks
More tool battery analysis' and I really think you'll blow up in popularity
Thank you!
Hi, I have recently subscribed. Looking forward to you comparing powertool batteries from other manufacturers (makita, milwaukee, dewalt, metabo HPT) and comparing them to each other. Thank you
Hello! I own Milwaukee tools and therefore have a bunch of their batteries. Exposure to other brands will be limited. However I can research their battery offerings and compare specific pack technologies such as Dewalt’s pouch cells Powerstack vs Milwaukee’s HO line.
Thank you for subscribing!
I like the channel. Nice job on the video. Hope to see more m12 and m18 discussion. Also curious as to if they would be easily modified for even better batteries?
Thank you! I need to find the time to record and post more. The batteries can be swapped, but what gets challenging is the electronics and communication. Without that, the BMS will shut down all current.
Wonder if the board counts how many cycles of charges.
I'm only at the start of the vid - but I heard the 3.0s are really crap - so I got the 2.5 HO with the tool, gonna report back after my tire change in October!
I’ve had decent luck with both. However I’m just a home user and don’t use my tools nearly as much as many. Thanks :)
So the high output in the M18 line actually use 21700 cells. A significant improvement. The M12 high output is still 18650 cells. Bit of a marketing ploy it seems. Same name, different batteries. These should be in the high capacity line. Less and less respect for Milwaukee over the marketing gimmicks. Keep it up Techtronics, you are a marketing sales focused conglomerate vs other brands who seem to be atleast a LITTLE more focused on engineering and practical improvements with less BS. Makita and Bosch will keep getting my money.
Correct - the M18 does use 21700 cells.
But in this case the “High Output” 2.5 does put out decent beans and the batteries are rated higher. It’s not much more expensive so I wouldn’t call it a scam.
21700s simply won’t work due to the physical size, so its hard to fault them.
He didn't get into the chemistry and physical difference between the cells themselves. Chemistry alone can make a cell GREAT at high capacity or drain rate, but not both. Same with construction of the cell. Thick layers with beefy portions of electrolyte are great for high drain but fewer layers so less capacity. Just like toilet paper you get more layers with thin layers on the roll. More layers mean more capacity, but those thin layers are easily damaged. It's compromise between the two. As technology, chemistry, and manufacturing methods improve, so will the cells and the batteries. They didn't just stop improving 18650s when 21700s came along. But you must understand one thing: The size of the packs and therefore, the cells is limited to what will fit into the tool. Full stop. You can dangle a pack the size of a concrete block OUTSIDE the grips, but to slide into the grips, 18mm(that's the 18 in 18650 with 650 being the length 65.0mm) is the limit. 20700s and 21700s just won't fit.
I see Milwaukee and I clickeeyy
Great video & new subscriber. Buying a new Milwaukee (M12) 2564-20, (right angle impact) bare tool, for home automotive use. If I may ask your opinion.. a good battery setup for this tool?? New h.o. 2.5, 5.0, maybe old xc 3.0 or 4.0?? Thank you
Cost is definitely a concern with batteries. I look for tool deals, then mix/match my batteries. The 2564 isn’t a huge power hog but the 3.0 and 4.0 would be great. I found a good deal in a pair of new 4.0s. Maybe I’ll do some kind of runtime test on the 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0.
I ca. tell you that the XC 3.0 will beat out the CP 3.0 for sure.
The 2.5 has more power than the 1.5?
That's my battery that you found....
ANYBODY HAVE A NEW MILWAUKEE DRILL M12 BATTERY EXPLODE WHEN IN USE?
Does the 3.0 XC have 6 1500 milliamp cells ?
I haven’t taken one apart, but that would be my guess as well. The current delivery of the XC 3.0 is likely significantly better than the CP 3.0 too.
3:32 you completely skipped a crucial detail, what was the size of the security torx screw?
T10
What size security torque bit do I need to remove screws?
You’ll need a T10 Torx security bit to remove the screw. Just note that some of the older M12 packs are “sealed”.
If you're careful, you can get them off with a regular torx. A security bit is better, of course, but I've taken a couple apart with a regular T10. Don't blame me if they got better screws that this won't work on. haha!
They change the cells in 2Ah ?
all along they were using Samsung 20R
the cp 3.0 and XC6.0 were using Samsung 30Q and so many went bad, notice they switched to Murata aka Sony VTC 6 which discharges at 15Amp vs Samsung 25S @ 25A
Question is how reliable are these Samsung, we know good history of VTC 6
What is the date code on the 2Ah ?
I think they did! It was a surprise to me to see the LG cells (LGDAHD41865) instead of the 20Rs. I think they switched when they went from the top-cap version to the bottom screw version. I don’t know if I mentioned this in the video, but the two cells have different ratings too. 24Wh on the bottom screw version with the LG vs. 22Ah on the old style (suspect 20R, need to confirm).
This battery is pretty new. The new design started with the 3.0 as I remember. There is no date on it, but the PCB is an older 2017 design.
The Samsung 20R and 25R are quite good in my experience. The 30Q is an unknown to me.
I agree that I’m NOT impressed with the 3.0Ah packs. They’re probably good for a low drain sustained load, but overall they’re not worth the money. I bought mine when they went on sale with a charger last year and I think it was half off essentially. Keep in mind that the 3Ah CP pack uses LG cells (LGABHG21865)
Just recently I had a pretty new XC6.0 go bad on me. The cell balancing was WAY off (4.0/3.8/3.5). I don’t work in the industry and my tools only are DIY level use. So no reason for this to happen especially since I take care of the packs and keep everything in like-new condition.
@@BatteryTestChannel agreed 20R and 25R are very reliable and stable
often used in other manufacture
30Q just simply not reliable, perhaps like you mentioned 30A is pushing it, 25A is max on 18650 cells
PCB more or less sam with two 100 ohm resistors and a thermal resistor
soldering issue my son and i found on a bunch of 30Q XC 6.0
@@TranTek No bueno. So far, I have had good luck with the 6Ah packs, but this 2.5Ah genuinely impressed me. I notice on other videos popping up that it is handily beating the 2.0, and approaching the XC6.0 in terms of performance in high draw tools. Bravo to Samsung!
@@BatteryTestChannel yes their discharge rate is higher 25A therefore the tools can get more punch to it
like those M18 HO 6Ah using Samsung 30T can discharge as high as 50A each where 40T struggle at 30A
@@BatteryTestChannel just brought the xc5.0pack look forward to replace my 4.0 pack for my stuby impact
A got a 3.0 CP pack free with the ratchet 2 years ago and it been great battery last forever and not bulky like the xc pack
A lot of my questions answered in this video. Excellent content because nobody on Reddit or forums answered things like what the difference between cp 3.0 and xc 3.0
Any chance you could cover the HO 5.0?
Thank you! I’ll see if I can get my hands on a HO 5.0!
I'll give you a spoiler guess. Same cells in this one, just twice as many.
hi.
where are you?
I actually put the batter and torch togater in a bin other day.
I was really upset about the torch, beause it didn`t stand and keeps rolling on the floor. and i smashed on the floor and still working . and i decied to let him go. this is stupid battery and torch setup. Im not gonna use that again.
Why does milwaukee use such low capacity batteries? Rather than say a vtc5a
The capacity difference is only 100mA, and it looks like both are rated at the same 25A (corrected, initially I looked at the VTC5 non-A).
My guess is that Samsung won the supply chain bid or provided the cells at lower cost!
Generally, lower capacity cells achieve higher drain rates and are more durable and degrade more slowly. The tech and chemistry is always improving, hence these cells. I expect them to be much more robust. I have told folks for years that you can get better performance on 4ah XC packs than 6ah XC packs in high drain tools. It's just a fact. It's always a trade off between capacity and drain rates. If you get one that has both high capacity and a high drain rate, chances are it won't last long if used in high drain tools.
Can you do a video about China made vs mexico made batteries please
Any plans to tear into the 5.0 HO?
I think it’s pretty similarly designed. I do have one and I think the 5.0 is a fantastic battery. I have been busy moving and with other life events unfortunately but my view of the 5.0 is favorable. It seems to have just as much power as the 6.0 in my preliminary testing, and when loaded heavily, I expect it to beat the 6.0. This is a guess, but I will have to test it.
I think maybe cutting some hardwood with a circular saw might be the best bet? I have the saw, just need to get around to testing.
can you swap batteries between the 2 casing?
Yes, I do believe so, but I haven’t tried it.
Also, some of bottom and tops the casings are at slightly different levels so they can’t be swapped.
How did you remove the cells from the red casing?
They’re are a couple of different types of M12 packs. The newer ones have a single T10 screw in the bottom that can be removed and the pack pretty much falls apart.
The older ones are a doozy - you have to pry and damage them to get them apart. 100% pain.
@@BatteryTestChannel but for the newest model with a screw on the bottom, how are you able to remove the battery cells from the red stem? Do you just smack it out or do you use a pry to push it out
@@ChrisBranleh Oh yea it’s just friction fit in there. Hold it in your hand like a fat pencil, and strike a surface with your palm. It’ll come out. Definitely snug, but it’ll just slide out!
Have you tested the Cp 3.0 m12 battery? Looks just like the 2.0 battery
Yes, I have a few of those. The CP 3.0 is good for longer run-times at lower loads, but it does t do so well with high-load scenarios. In fact the XC 3.0 absolutely destroys the CP 3.0. It has higher current handling and higher overall capacity.
Any specific scenarios you have questions on?
@@BatteryTestChannel
I use those on my stick light.
Thank you for the explanation on those.
I will stick with my 4.0 and 6AH batteries on the other stuff I use daily for work.
@@apa7611 Ah, that’s an excellent use for the 3.0Ah. High density batteries are great for that type of low drain loads. You’ll probably get around 40% more runtime for the same size. Although the XC packs do give you a nice stand for those lights.
@@BatteryTestChannel Comparing the CP3.0 to the CP2.5 HO, which one has more power for a demanding tool like the impact wrench?
Also, how would the run times compare between the two?
Thanks for the helpful and informative videos.
@@davidparker9676 From my testing, and reviewing videos of other CZcamsrs, the 2.5HO will definitely have more power. High capacity implies *lower*discharge rates all else held equal. What gives you more power is more cells and the fact that the 2.5HO is only second to the 6-cell XC 6.0 is impressive.
I shorted an 18V 4.0 craftsman battery that’s brand new, is there any way to fix it?
Short answer - no, there is no way to recover from damage to a cell of any kind.
A short shouldn’t immediately kill the cells though depending on the load and time. Is it showing diminished capacity? Truly damaged cells aren’t safe so be careful.