At the time of this writing there are 157 comments. I did not take the time to look at each and every one so forgive me if I'm being redundant. Today is March 26th 2022 I am installing the thermal Bob 2 kit. Since Tim's video was shot the thermostat has changed and there is no bleed hole. So everyone can stop looking for it. I'd like to thank watt-man for answering my phone call and clarifying for me
This is Bryan B. I commented below 2 years ago. An update, the Thermobob is still working fine. Now the minimum temperature is now 180 as seen on the temperature gauge, initially it bottomed out at 190 F. I really like this product!!!
Hi Tim, this is Bryan B. My wife's name comes up on the account. I installed the Thermobob kit, following your excellent video. I installed the temp gauge faceplate also. Thought I'd share my results. I've done two rides since the install. One was with an outside temp of 30F and the other at 50F. The engine comes up to temp on the template at 190F and stays right there. I stopped and let the cooling fan come on a few times, It turns on at 230F on the template. I'm very pleased with the Thermobob from Wattman. Everyone needs to remember the Thermobob keeps a minimum temp and prevents big temp swings on your cyclinder, the high temp fan turn on point is still the same as the bike comes stock with.
Tim2Wheels I have just purchased a 2002 KLR 650 with 16,000 mi. Do you think it’s to late for the Themal Bob? I am getting ready to go on a 1,000 mile trip and will have the bike loaded down and don’t want to over heat
I just installed the kit in my new to me Gen 1 KLR (had 3k original miles). I only rode 700 miles before installing the kit, but have personally witnessed the temperature swings in stock configuration. The swings have been leveled out, and it maintains a steady temp reading now, so to those nay-sayers or anyone unsure if this kit works...............it does. For the money and time investment, I consider it a worthwhile upgrade. If/when I get another KLR, I'll install a Bob on it also.
First thank you Tim and bob (wattman)This was one of my first mods and your video convinced me it was necessary especially durring winter riding in upstate ny. I tested this on a 10deg f day and my temp stayed right in the middle and my friends klr (non thermobob) temp needle never left the cold pin on the temp gauge. This can not be good for the bike. So I just wanted to let every one know first hand this is the real deal and works awesome.
Thanks for the comment. It's always good to hear feedback from other riders. It is amazing what the Thermo-Bob 2 does for stabilizing the temp on a KLR. Thanks for watching.
I added the Thermo Bob to my Gen 2 KLR about a year ago here in Upstate New York. But I have a continuing problem which I have just learned to live with. The temperature does not get warm enough. I have checked the thermostat in boiling water and it is operating properly. Watt man sent me another thermostat. It operated the same way. So now I just put duct tape on the radiator until the temperatures get up in the 70 degree range. I certainly do agree with this product in concept. There is too much temperature variation from the bottom to the top of the cylinder and in my case that resulted in excessive oil consumption when the engine was being operated at 80 miles per hour for an extended period of time. I installed an Eagle Mike 685 piston in my KLR and am very satisfied with the performance. I'm just about to set off on a 3000-mile trip.
Completed Saturday 06MAY. 300KM ride today as a shake down test. Engine temp stable at bottom quarter of display. Ambient air temp 17 C , 66F. AKL New Zealand. This video, like so many others on maintenance, much , much more helpful than just the written material. Great. Tks. Looking at others now 2011 KLR650
Hey Peter, that's great! I'm glad the video was helpful. My temps have been much more stable and it is good to hear you are experiencing the same results. Thanks for the feedback on your project.
Bought my 2011 new and rode maybe 4000km before winter came. Installed the ThermoBob in the spring. About 2 years ago a yz250 fork conversion came my way and it uses a Trailtech Vapour LCD dash with a coolant pipe insert to read temps. This klr has 105000km now and time for a 685. Had zero problems with the thermostat but didn't care for how drastic the temp would drop especially in early spring and early fall. Never had a problem with the ThermoBob and the Vapour allowed me to set the temperature the fan would engage. Would give a warning light when it reaches that setting also. I now have a mint 2009 and will keep it mostly stock but with a ThermoBob. These bikes have so much aftermarket and experimental and usable knowledge that alot of them are very personalized. On a western trip the temps in the Okanogan area was friggin hot. Both US and Canadian sides more than this easterner was used to and the klr with ThermoBob just kept on tractoring👌
I installed the Thermo-Bob and Temp templet on my 2015 KLR-650. Very satisfied !!! Learn about the Inventor / Great Guy / Had an informative chat with him.
Great video Tim...ThermoBob's installation instructions are good but you are great at pointing out the "gotchas" and I appreciate that. My temperature gauge used to bounce around almost as much as the speedo and tach and now it's far more consistent and gradual. Thanks!
This, my friend, is the best video on why and how to. The why is that keeps the cylinder round, so less oil blow by. And it keeps the engine stable. Nuff said. Thankyou very much for this honest vid. I take delivery of a 2018 klr next Friday. I’m doing the dookickey and this asap. The bike will run forever. Enjoy ure bike and Happy New Year
“Factory thermostat” is a key word for me. The thermostat should hold the engine temperature at the proper temp which will dictate the proper tolerance between the cylinder wall and the piston thus not allowing piston rock, therefore ring rounding should not happen. There are many ways to adjust this scenario. I choose the thermo Brian method~ enjoy the warm weather toys in the warm weather or increase thermostat temp.
Thanks, Tim! Fyi, check the front counter area of your local part store for a ratcheting right-angle screwdriver set. I recently bought one from Autozone for $7, and it went immediately into my on-bike toolkit. That little sucker is a huge timesaver, and has the same shape and size as your jimmy-rigged screwdriver setup...but it RATCHETS. It even has the allen key sizes we need for, say, Eagle Mike's upgraded carburetor and brake master cylinder screws. Hope you get one, and it saves you as much time as your videos save me!
If I go to Coihaique in winter I just use a piece of cardboard and the problem is solved. It works and it's cheap and easy to use. And if I go to Atacama desert I don't need to do anything just leave the bike as it is.
What I find amazing is the apparent stubbornness of the OEM manufacturer (Kawasaki) to acknowledge the innovation provided to them by owners........and implement it into the new bikes. That is truly sad.
Out of curiosity, it would almost seem that a an air cooled motor would have actually less temperature fluctuation since there is no surge of cold coolant. The problem would just be great variation in operating temperatures that a properly regulated water jacket would solve. Any way, as much as I hate an extra hose on an engine this seems wise.
G'day Tim Thank you very much for your clear and explicit reviews. Amongst all the misinformation that makes it onto CZcams - it's refreshing to see your professional vids. The Thermo Bob will be my next job. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the wildly fluctuating coolant temperatures are not a good thing. I have a feeling that stabilizing the engine block temperature may even, at least partially, solve some of the carburation niggles (e.g. surging, erratic idle) as well as the other benefits that others have cited. Did you notice a steadier idle with the now stable coolant temperature? Keep up the good work cheers from Western Australia George
Hi George, Thank you for the feed back. Yes I do think the bike runs//idles more smoothly. The biggest change has been the absence of the wide temperature swings when stopped, riding slow, and then at higher speed. The temps are much more stable now. Also I use to get more backfire "pops" during deceleration. I still get one occasionally, but I think the consistent head temps have helped. Thanks for the comments and for watching.
thanks for quick reply Tim; and for confirming better idle etc. Lot's of carburetor alterations going on out there in KLR land, when the "real" cause may just lay somewhere else ?? I will keep you posted as to my findings when done. be good cheers George
Hi Tim. Thanks for a great tutorial. I completely forgot that you had this when I completed the Thermobob yesterday. However, I notice you are specifically mentioning the bleed hole pointing upwards when installing the Thermostat (11:50), but I cannot see any mentioning of this in Watt-Man guide. I did not pay attention of this for the same reason, but is it very important to do? If so, I would need to re-install this. Thanks!
Great product! To put it simply, the Thermo-bob 2 keeps your cylinder bore, round, instead of 10 thousandths-ish, out of round. How about the removal of the mechanical seal under the water pump impeller?
Not taking anything from Tim... This can be done with the tank on. It's a bit tight, but not too bad at all. Just saves a bit of time removing all you have to remove to get at the tank. If your coolant is old or needs changing, you'll need to pull the coolant overflow to drain it too. Simple. Upon assembly, make certain the clutch cable goes BETWEEN the two hoses that come off the water pump.
This bike has been around for 30 years. If there were a problem, I'm thinking the engineers would have, by this time, fixed it. While the coolant temp may fluctuate drastically, there is simply no way the engine metal is making these kinds of drastic temperature changes. Going to have to look into this further.
Think about this, the coolant is running through the engine at significantly different temps at various parts of a ride. During the colder coolant periods think back to putting cold water on a hot exhaust or hot water on a frozen windshield. The sudden shock can really stress metals and eventually can cause failure. Its not as extreme as those examples but there is definitely stress there.
Amazing video, only 1 question? Do I really need to take the gas tank off? Everything you did looks like it could have been done with the tank still in place
Isn't heat the enemy of an engine? I've got one of the best made diesel engines in the world a 5.9 cummins and its a cool running engine. They last and run forever and I had the same hopes for my KLR650.
True. Excessive heat is a bad thing. My goal here was not to gain hotter running temps, but to have more stable operating temperature. It is still well within the operating range for the engine. The KLR 650 is such an under stressed motor, it will run forever with good care. Thanks for the comment and for watching.
So much misinformation in this comment. The Cummins thermostat begins to open at 193-195F and is fully open at 207F. Diesel Engines are most efficient at 200F or a little over. Proper heat range is NOT the enemy of engines. Getting up to operating temperature quickly and staying there is the best thing for both MPGs and longevity, Diesel or gasser.
@@lightdepdoctor179 I concur, combustion chamber temperatures are higher now than in say the 1960's in an effort to improve efficiency and lower emissions, all of my cars are engineered to run at 210 degrees F water temperature by the manufacturer. My understanding of diesel engines is the need of high compression and correct combustion chamber temperature to ignite the fuel, a low coolant temperature in a diesel could be detrimental to its operation. My 2009 KLR always seemed to run at the cold end that made my wonder if it was warm enough plus the I wondered if the oil temp every gets high enough and there is the consistency of temperature which could contribute to engine longevity, in my opinion.
FYI - there are NO phillips head screws on the KLR. They are JIS (Japanese Industrial Screw). If you work on your bike as much as I think you do, you'll enjoy them! Also...treat yourself to a SnapOn ratchet or two. You'll love them.
hotburnymustard - Ah! You are correct. JIS is the actual screw type. Old habbits of calling it a "Phillips" is hard to break. Thanks for the comment and for watching.
The Hozan ones on Amazon are decent. 4pc set for like $20. You can actually get those screws off the carb bowl & slide cap without stripping them. The little dot on the screw tells you it's JIS, but not all JIS have the dot. Happy trails :)
Confused why can't u just run a hotter thermastat instead doing all the other stuff if the t stat works correctly it would still full open by the 90c so what's the use of the bypass
The explanation for why this mod is needed makes no sense to me. The purpose of the factory thermostat is to block coolant flow until the temperature comes up to the setting of the thermostat. If Kawasaki uses a 160°F thermostat, it should only open when the coolant reaches that temp and then close as soon as it falls 5° or so below. If the engine is running too cool when moving, it suggests that the thermostat isn't working or that there is too direct air cooling from air blowing over the engine.
I have an older kit installed, where the new thermostat was installed on the hose. It was kind of hard to place everything properly to keep the large thermostat housing from damaging anything. It works fine but the cooling fan comes on quite often as temperature creeps into the top half of the temperature gauge when I stop at red lights. This happens even in colder weather. One thing I noticed right away was that I was no longer able to use regular gasoline in the bike. It was pinging badly. I never had this issue before I installed the ThermoBob. Have you noticed this issue on your bike?
Hi Andrew, Sorry for the long delay in responding. I have not had that pinging issue with my bike. I'm not sure how the T-Bob would cause that, but it is odd that it coincided with that upgrade. I would recommend contacting Thermo-Bob to see if they have heard of this before. They may have some suggestions. Thanks for the comment, I wish I had a fix for you.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, What about just removing the thermostat or drilling a small hole in the thermostat to allow the coolant to flow?
You could do that. However, I'm not sure it would provide the same consistency in the average temps. I would expect you would get a consistent cool running temperature. Thanks for the idea and for watching.
hey tim thanks for the video, very detailed and saved me the hassle of bull shitting around with it. no new videos in 3 months whats going on my man? every time i do something mechanical wise to my klr that i dont know how to i come check you out!
Hey Shane, thanks for the comments. I'm still out here, just been very busy with work and family. I hope to get back to making some new videos soon. Thanks for watching.
I listened to your advice and bought it for my bike klr650 and there was no change in the bike when I am driving the bike in crowded places The indicator rises like the previous science My new bike did not exceed 3000 km
This mod does not change anything about the high temp. Running of the eng. It helps to prevent the eng. Running cold. So , in a cold day this mod prevent eng. To run cold when u r in freeway. When u r in traffic jam, your bike temp will go up and fan kicks in, regardless of having this mod or no.
Am I crazy to try for the same results as a Thermo Bob by taping a piece of cardboard over my radiator? I just covered 90% of my radiator and went for a ride on a 60 degree day. The temp gauge stayed just under the half way mark, around 195. Before it wouldn’t go above 120. I’m considering the T Bob but thought I’d try this first.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say you’re crazy, but it’s definitely a gamble and I’m sure you already realize how much temperature fluctuations will affect the efficacy of it. Honestly, I’d say it’s really only a short term fix at best, and I’d only use it until you can scrape up the cash for something like a thermo-bob. (Speaking as a motorcycle tech)
Nice video like all your videos they are verry detailed I like that. I have followed along with you on many of your projects and have changed a lot of things on my klr for the better like the doohicky, thermobob, springs, heated grips, etc.would like to know your thoughts and opinions about a product I bought.I purchased a Rekluse clutch. I was just curious if you are going to have any videos on how to replace the clutch and basket. Thanks
Thanks for the comment Tom. I don't have any plans to go to a Rekluse clutch and to be honest, I don't know enough about them to make a informed comment. I have heard good things about Rekluse in other bikes. If you make the change, let us know what you think of it. Thanks for watching.
180-195 is very realistic. Below 160 you can have sludge issues and it will not purge moisture from the crankcase efficiently. To cold and its a loss of power due to added friction on the rings and other parts. Meaning less power and accelerated wear. If it could magically never waver from 195 it would be ideal. that being said 210-220 on MOST basic engines is not good either. Especially with dino oils. So id probably go with a 190 for that reason alone. It will fluctuate. If it never hits 210 with the 195, great, but i'm willing to bet it does.
Might be embarrassing myself, but I don't see the need for the bypass hose. Wouldn't the replacement thermostat be sufficient? I couldn't find an explanation on Watt-Man's website. Anyway, great video.
Hi John, Your question is a fair one. You are correct and ideally there would be no need for a bypass line/hose, but for several reasons, the KLR is known for wide temperature swings, which is not best for any engine. The Thermo-Bob system helps to stabilize the temp in a way that the thermostat alone cannot. The thermostat will change high-end of the operating temp (the open point) with or without a Thermo-Bob, but it does not prevent the wild swings in between that open/close point. The Thermo-Bob has helped even out the operating temp in all riding conditions from lugging around off road or in town to riding at highway speeds. Before those two extremes would have given me drastically different engine operating temps in both hot and cold weather. Thanks for the question and for watching. Tim
John, the bypass is there to keep coolant flowing even when the thermostat is closed. Look at the "testing" article at watt-man.com... WITH the bypass, the coolant coming into the engine is 185F, and what's leaving the engine is 195F. That's why car cooling systems have a bypass too - it minimizes the temperature gradients across the engine. If you didn't have the bypass hose, you would see the "before" results at the testing article, where the water that is entering the engine is essentially at ambient temps, because it dwelled in the radiator so long.
hey tim, NC native here. Thanks for the video. I bought a KLR 250 in Louisiana, I think it was left out in the rain and sat for to long. A couple of times now it has stalled out after riding a while choked out like it was getting gas, usually when I am in a high gear but not always. last weekend it did it after 45 mints and then I had to ride home in 2nd gear. do you think I have something that is cutting the bike off when it gets to hot ? or just junk in the carbs ? petcock ? the tank was rusty so I put the liner in it and a inline filter. Any tips would help. do you have a video about cleaning the carb ? I know nothing about this stuff if you couldnt tell. Thanks
Nathan Bell - Well, there could be a few things. The carb and a good clean fuel system is a good place to start. I don't have a video on a carb rebuild, but there are a few on CZcams. See if you can find a good Maintenance Manual (like Clymers, etc.) to help you with the details. Once you know the fuel and air system is good, checking the electrical system (stator / coil output) would be wise. All of this is relatively easy work if you have a good manual to step you through. God luck with your project. Thanks for watching.
I know you have since sold your KLR, but did you have any issue with the overlay causing an issue with the seal between the instrument faceplate and the cover? You mention there being a gasket and I am wondering if the overlay interfered with that gasket.
I just bought a second hand klr as my first bike and have noticed that the temperature when riding sits on cold. When idling it gets up to mid range on the gauge. I also have a really annoying, very gentle steady speed surge/rocking at all rpm and gears (except possibly 1st gear). Could these be linked? I previously thought it was the chain tension or fuel tank venting but have checked both and the surge remains. It is almost imperceptible and happens once a second or so.
Ben Mitchell - Hi Ben, My thought is that the two issues are not linked. The temperature swings are "normal" for a stock KLR. The Thermo-Bob helped that with mine. For the surging, I would try a good cleaning of the carburetor to see if that helps (it usually does). Maybe others can comment with their experience. I hope this helps, thanks for watching.
you need to add a couple of shims to needle. they set these up quite lean on lower and mid range. also drill pilot screw access cover to be able to adjust pilot screws. gently close them and open it up to almost 2 full turns.
Good question and I don't know if I have the best answer for that. But I think with no thermostat at all the temp would remain on the colder side all the time due to constantly circulating coolant through the system. With a thermostat, it allows the engine to warm up before it opens to allow circulation. The problem with the OEM configuration was those wide temp swings. The Thermo-Bob2 maintains a more consistent, steady operating temp. Thanks for the comment and for watching.
Hi Tim, thank you for the nice video. I consider installing Thermo-bob on my KLR. I know you sold your KLR. While you still had it, did you notice decrease of oil burning after the Thermo-bob was installed and the temperature of the engine became more stable?
My KLR was a 2009 and luckily did not have an oil burning issue. So I can''t say if the T-Bob helped that or not. It did give me very stable temps. Sorry I can't help with your question.
The Euro/Canadian C model has an original bypass hose/thermo bob. czcams.com/video/j7xRBIRey_0/video.html See it goes directly into the water pump, it is the smaller hose between the big in/out hoses at the pump. Why does the C model KLR already have a third hose like the thermo bob? But that one goes down between the other two at the pump, where the A model has a closed attachement there. Look: It goes out from the cylinderhead with the blue "plastic transparent part", under the carburetor, back around the cylinder, back into the where the waterpump is between the two large hoses.
Although the KLR is fairly "bullet proof", I think I would wait until the warranty was up. You never know if/when a bigger problem may occur where you need that warranty. Thanks for watching and for the comment.
Yes. I will work on a follow up review video. But it is safe to say that I have been happy with the upgrade. It has provided far better stability in the operating temps.
That's a fair question. It's not just about achieving a higher operating temperature. The goal is to get a more steady temp. The Thermo-Bob prevents the wild temp swings and provides a steady, predictable range. Thanks for the question and for watching.
... because you want the coolant flowing all the time, even when the thermostat is closed. Automotive systems have had this benefit for decades, but the KLR tries to save a few bucks by dead-heading the system until the thermostat is open. With the stock KLR setup, the coolant temps entering the engine are significantly colder than the temp exiting the engine. Not good. Well-designed cooling systems rely on high-flowrate, low delta-T - meaning the water comes in at 185, leaves at 195. This way the entire engine is almost the same temperature everywhere (10 degrees from inlet to exit). The stock setup has very large differences in inlet and exit temps, measured at over 100 degrees (see watt-man.com/uploads/TB_Testing.pdf). If you put in a hotter thermostat and no bypass, then the difference between inlet and exit temps is even worse by another 30 degrees.
Hey Tim, great video as always. I installed my TB2 this morning after watching your tutorial. I removed the panels, the seat, and the two tank bolts and lifted the tank just enough to apply the torque wrench which was the only thing I couldn't do with the tank on. After all is said and done, It would have been easier to remove the tank. Thanks again for the KLR videos!
Iron mechanik - Well, that is true, but I see them as areas of improvement. :) The KLR is a good overall bike, it's just that for its price point there are definitely performance improvements that can be made. I don't think anyone out there will argue that a KLR is on the same level as, say a BMW GSA or other similar machines, but it doesn't cost you $15-20k either. And the those expensive bikes still have problems and still break down. For someone looking for a rugged, simple, and well proven dual sport/mid-size ADV bike on a modest budget, it is a good chioce. After making some improvements, you have a reliable machine that will take you anywhere. After all, KLRs have gone around the world many times and continue to do so. Thank you for the the comment, it was a fair one. And thanks for watching.
I watched the entire video and don't even own a KLR...very detailed
Rob Burke - Thank you!
Ditto.........don't own one either....I also watched it all.........great job
same here, however I do wish to purchase one in the near future :-)
me 4, and wish to buy one soon too
@@Tim2Wheels Hey! I have a Klr650 2007 does this thermo-bod2 fit? I will waiting your answer as soon as possible.
Best regards Jose
At the time of this writing there are 157 comments.
I did not take the time to look at each and every one so forgive me if I'm being redundant. Today is March 26th 2022 I am installing the thermal Bob 2 kit. Since Tim's video was shot the thermostat has changed and there is no bleed hole. So everyone can stop looking for it. I'd like to thank watt-man for answering my phone call and clarifying for me
This is Bryan B. I commented below 2 years ago. An update, the Thermobob is still working fine. Now the minimum temperature is now 180 as seen on the temperature gauge, initially it bottomed out at 190 F. I really like this product!!!
Hi Tim, this is Bryan B. My wife's name comes up on the account. I installed the Thermobob kit, following your excellent video. I installed the temp gauge faceplate also. Thought I'd share my results. I've done two rides since the install. One was with an outside temp of 30F and the other at 50F. The engine comes up to temp on the template at 190F and stays right there. I stopped and let the cooling fan come on a few times, It turns on at 230F on the template. I'm very pleased with the Thermobob from Wattman. Everyone needs to remember the Thermobob keeps a minimum temp and prevents big temp swings on your cyclinder, the high temp fan turn on point is still the same as the bike comes stock with.
Deborah Bicker - Hey Bryan, thanks for sharing this info! It's always good to hear from others on their results.
Just installed the Thermo-Bob today after viewing your instructions twice it was easy to do....no problems at all. Thank you for the video.
Stefan Puffer - Thanks for your comments, I'm glad the video was helpful. I have been pleased with my Thermo-Bob 2. Thanks for watching.
Tim2Wheels
I have just purchased a 2002 KLR 650 with 16,000 mi. Do you think it’s to late for the Themal Bob? I am getting ready to go on a 1,000 mile trip and will have the bike loaded down and don’t want to over heat
I just installed the kit in my new to me Gen 1 KLR (had 3k original miles). I only rode 700 miles before installing the kit, but have personally witnessed the temperature swings in stock configuration. The swings have been leveled out, and it maintains a steady temp reading now, so to those nay-sayers or anyone unsure if this kit works...............it does. For the money and time investment, I consider it a worthwhile upgrade. If/when I get another KLR, I'll install a Bob on it also.
Tim, you make the best how-to videos. Thank you
I just bought an 18 KLR 650. Thanks for your series, masterful job of lighting, filming and overall presentation.
Hey, thanks for the comments. I'm sure you will enjoy your new KLR.
Thanks for watching!
First thank you Tim and bob (wattman)This was one of my first mods and your video convinced me it was necessary especially durring winter riding in upstate ny. I tested this on a 10deg f day and my temp stayed right in the middle and my friends klr (non thermobob) temp needle never left the cold pin on the temp gauge. This can not be good for the bike. So I just wanted to let every one know first hand this is the real deal and works awesome.
Thanks for the comment. It's always good to hear feedback from other riders. It is amazing what the Thermo-Bob 2 does for stabilizing the temp on a KLR.
Thanks for watching.
I added one of these on my 2007 KLR and it sure made my jetting a lot more stable.
I added the Thermo Bob to my Gen 2 KLR about a year ago here in Upstate New York. But I have a continuing problem which I have just learned to live with. The temperature does not get warm enough. I have checked the thermostat in boiling water and it is operating properly. Watt man sent me another thermostat. It operated the same way. So now I just put duct tape on the radiator until the temperatures get up in the 70 degree range.
I certainly do agree with this product in concept. There is too much temperature variation from the bottom to the top of the cylinder and in my case that resulted in excessive oil consumption when the engine was being operated at 80 miles per hour for an extended period of time. I installed an Eagle Mike 685 piston in my KLR and am very satisfied with the performance. I'm just about to set off on a 3000-mile trip.
The 685 kit seems to be the answer, especially for the 08/09 models.
Does the duct tape work okay? I’m thinking about covering the radiator with cardboard or something to get the temperature up
Completed Saturday 06MAY. 300KM ride today as a shake down test. Engine temp stable at bottom quarter of display. Ambient air temp 17 C , 66F. AKL New Zealand. This video, like so many others on maintenance, much , much more helpful than just the written material. Great. Tks. Looking at others now 2011 KLR650
Hey Peter, that's great! I'm glad the video was helpful.
My temps have been much more stable and it is good to hear you are experiencing the same results.
Thanks for the feedback on your project.
Literally just installed my thermo-bob 2 by following your video. Thanks heaps.
Jacob Rice - Hey Jacob, that's great to hear. I think you'll be very pleased with the T-Bob 2.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
This is what all instructional videos should be like. Terrific (and I don't owns KLR either!).
Bought my 2011 new and rode maybe 4000km before winter came. Installed the ThermoBob in the spring. About 2 years ago a yz250 fork conversion came my way and it uses a Trailtech Vapour LCD dash with a coolant pipe insert to read temps. This klr has 105000km now and time for a 685.
Had zero problems with the thermostat but didn't care for how drastic the temp would drop especially in early spring and early fall.
Never had a problem with the ThermoBob and the Vapour allowed me to set the temperature the fan would engage. Would give a warning light when it reaches that setting also.
I now have a mint 2009 and will keep it mostly stock but with a ThermoBob.
These bikes have so much aftermarket and experimental and usable knowledge that alot of them are very personalized. On a western trip the temps in the Okanogan area was friggin hot. Both US and Canadian sides more than this easterner was used to and the klr with ThermoBob just kept on tractoring👌
Really good video Tim! I have one of these waiting to be installed on my Gen3... just need to clean all the mud off it first!
What an awesome video Sir, thank you for sharing!
Thanks for the detailed video. Putting the Thermo-Bob unit on my 2017 this week.
Good luck with your project Grant. I think you''ll be pleased with the results.
Thanks for the comment and for watching!
I installed the Thermo-Bob and Temp templet on my 2015 KLR-650. Very satisfied !!! Learn about the Inventor / Great Guy / Had an informative chat with him.
Great video Tim...ThermoBob's installation instructions are good but you are great at pointing out the "gotchas" and I appreciate that. My temperature gauge used to bounce around almost as much as the speedo and tach and now it's far more consistent and gradual. Thanks!
This, my friend, is the best video on why and how to. The why is that keeps the cylinder round, so less oil blow by. And it keeps the engine stable. Nuff said. Thankyou very much for this honest vid. I take delivery of a 2018 klr next Friday. I’m doing the dookickey and this asap. The bike will run forever. Enjoy ure bike and Happy New Year
I bought it and install it on my KLR650 took my a few hours thank you for your video.
Just got mine. Installing it now on my 22' KLR 650.
“Factory thermostat” is a key word for me. The thermostat should hold the engine temperature at the proper temp which will dictate the proper tolerance between the cylinder wall and the piston thus not allowing piston rock, therefore ring rounding should not happen. There are many ways to adjust this scenario. I choose the thermo Brian method~ enjoy the warm weather toys in the warm weather or increase thermostat temp.
Sunday evening binge-watch, thanks Tim!!!
Thanks to your awesome tutorial here my thermo bob installation went fantastically. Appreciate it!
Daniel, I'm so glad it was helpful. Enjoy your stable temps.
Thanks for watching.
thanks for all your very well explained videos, well done sir
Thanks for watching Steve! I appreciate the feedback.
Thanks, Tim! Fyi, check the front counter area of your local part store for a ratcheting right-angle screwdriver set. I recently bought one from Autozone for $7, and it went immediately into my on-bike toolkit. That little sucker is a huge timesaver, and has the same shape and size as your jimmy-rigged screwdriver setup...but it RATCHETS. It even has the allen key sizes we need for, say, Eagle Mike's upgraded carburetor and brake master cylinder screws. Hope you get one, and it saves you as much time as your videos save me!
Just completed the job using your video and watt man instructions. Very helpful. Thank you so much!
Heather Phillips - I'm glad glad the video was helpful. Thanks for the feedback and for watching.
Really well done! I value the explanation and meticulously documented procedure that should make it very easy to do these mods.
Great job - good lighting and camera work. Well explained and no BS...thx for sharing.
Thanks for the comment. I try :)
Very nice tutorial, Tim. A mod I'm thinking about doing to my ‘08. Thank you for sharing.
There’s no bleed hole on the new thermostat,In the wattman instructions however,there is a picture,of the proper orientation.
Yeah I have watched them all and very helpful. Been a year in the making buying this bike... Saving money etc.
Great video, Thank you!
Nice video. Just bought a klr650
+Dirt Hammers Thanks for the comment and welcome to the KLR Club! They are good bikes. I hope my other videos help you with upgrades as needed.
If I go to Coihaique in winter I just use a piece of cardboard and the problem is solved. It works and it's cheap and easy to use. And if I go to Atacama desert I don't need to do anything just leave the bike as it is.
Thanks, Tim. Really enjoy your videos.
Thanks for the comment Jacob. And thanks for watching.
What I find amazing is the apparent stubbornness of the OEM manufacturer (Kawasaki) to acknowledge the innovation provided to them by owners........and implement it into the new bikes. That is truly sad.
08-09 klr burned excessive oil also. kawasaki did nothing.
They finally got it, they stopped making it
Out of curiosity, it would almost seem that a an air cooled motor would have actually less temperature fluctuation since there is no surge of cold coolant. The problem would just be great variation in operating temperatures that a properly regulated water jacket would solve. Any way, as much as I hate an extra hose on an engine this seems wise.
Very well done video, kudos.
G'day Tim
Thank you very much for your clear and explicit reviews.
Amongst all the misinformation that makes it onto CZcams - it's refreshing to see your professional vids.
The Thermo Bob will be my next job. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that the wildly fluctuating coolant temperatures are not a good thing.
I have a feeling that stabilizing the engine block temperature may even, at least partially, solve some of the carburation niggles (e.g. surging, erratic idle) as well as the other benefits that others have cited. Did you notice a steadier idle with the now stable coolant temperature?
Keep up the good work
cheers from Western Australia
George
Hi George, Thank you for the feed back.
Yes I do think the bike runs//idles more smoothly. The biggest change has been the absence of the wide temperature swings when stopped, riding slow, and then at higher speed. The temps are much more stable now.
Also I use to get more backfire "pops" during deceleration. I still get one occasionally, but I think the consistent head temps have helped.
Thanks for the comments and for watching.
thanks for quick reply Tim; and for confirming better idle etc.
Lot's of carburetor alterations going on out there in KLR land, when the "real" cause may just lay somewhere else ??
I will keep you posted as to my findings when done.
be good
cheers
George
Performed this upgrade today going step by step with the video. Thanks Tim.
They should offer the overlay in Celsius to, not only in Fahrenheit.
Hi Tim. Thanks for a great tutorial. I completely forgot that you had this when I completed the Thermobob yesterday. However, I notice you are specifically mentioning the bleed hole pointing upwards when installing the Thermostat (11:50), but I cannot see any mentioning of this in Watt-Man guide. I did not pay attention of this for the same reason, but is it very important to do? If so, I would need to re-install this. Thanks!
Great product! To put it simply, the Thermo-bob 2 keeps your cylinder bore, round, instead of 10 thousandths-ish, out of round. How about the removal of the mechanical seal under the water pump impeller?
The thermostats that came with my kit do not have bleed holes.
Not taking anything from Tim... This can be done with the tank on. It's a bit tight, but not too bad at all. Just saves a bit of time removing all you have to remove to get at the tank. If your coolant is old or needs changing, you'll need to pull the coolant overflow to drain it too. Simple. Upon assembly, make certain the clutch cable goes BETWEEN the two hoses that come off the water pump.
Yeaaaa! I worked this out for myself! The clutch cable MUST pass between the two water pump hoses.
Thanks, taking the tank off is a PITA sometimes with the pucks, got a new KLR and was thinking I could skip that step.
This bike has been around for 30 years. If there were a problem, I'm thinking the engineers would have, by this time, fixed it. While the coolant temp may fluctuate drastically, there is simply no way the engine metal is making these kinds of drastic temperature changes. Going to have to look into this further.
Think about this, the coolant is running through the engine at significantly different temps at various parts of a ride. During the colder coolant periods think back to putting cold water on a hot exhaust or hot water on a frozen windshield. The sudden shock can really stress metals and eventually can cause failure. Its not as extreme as those examples but there is definitely stress there.
I would think that a more consistent temperature would prolong engine life.
My 99 C1 KLR doesn't even come out with a temp gauge and is still running great. No stupid doohicky upgrade either. Waste of money.
Well made and informative video. May I suggest one demonstrating removing the gas tank and upper fairing?
Thanks for the comment. I will put together a group of videos covering topics like that.
Excellent video. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
That adds another source of leaks,something to avoid; what exactly is the purpose of that?
Amazing video, only 1 question? Do I really need to take the gas tank off? Everything you did looks like it could have been done with the tank still in place
Isn't heat the enemy of an engine? I've got one of the best made diesel engines in the world a 5.9 cummins and its a cool running engine. They last and run forever and I had the same hopes for my KLR650.
True. Excessive heat is a bad thing. My goal here was not to gain hotter running temps, but to have more stable operating temperature. It is still well within the operating range for the engine.
The KLR 650 is such an under stressed motor, it will run forever with good care.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
So much misinformation in this comment. The Cummins thermostat begins to open at 193-195F and is fully open at 207F. Diesel Engines are most efficient at 200F or a little over. Proper heat range is NOT the enemy of engines. Getting up to operating temperature quickly and staying there is the best thing for both MPGs and longevity, Diesel or gasser.
@@lightdepdoctor179 I concur, combustion chamber temperatures are higher now than in say the 1960's in an effort to improve efficiency and lower emissions, all of my cars are engineered to run at 210 degrees F water temperature by the manufacturer. My understanding of diesel engines is the need of high compression and correct combustion chamber temperature to ignite the fuel, a low coolant temperature in a diesel could be detrimental to its operation. My 2009 KLR always seemed to run at the cold end that made my wonder if it was warm enough plus the I wondered if the oil temp every gets high enough and there is the consistency of temperature which could contribute to engine longevity, in my opinion.
Tim why after installing a thermo bob the temp gauge does not work???
What are the advantages to using this kit versus just replacing the thermostat with a 190-195 ?
My kit only came with 1 thermostat and mine did not come with a hole to put at the top?
Perfect !
FYI - there are NO phillips head screws on the KLR. They are JIS (Japanese Industrial Screw). If you work on your bike as much as I think you do, you'll enjoy them! Also...treat yourself to a SnapOn ratchet or two. You'll love them.
hotburnymustard - Ah! You are correct. JIS is the actual screw type. Old habbits of calling it a "Phillips" is hard to break.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
The Hozan ones on Amazon are decent. 4pc set for like $20. You can actually get those screws off the carb bowl & slide cap without stripping them. The little dot on the screw tells you it's JIS, but not all JIS have the dot. Happy trails :)
Confused why can't u just run a hotter thermastat instead doing all the other stuff if the t stat works correctly it would still full open by the 90c so what's the use of the bypass
I'm wondering how well your KLR650 performed after the Thermo-Bob 2 install.
Hi Tim, Need your help, Ive installed the Thermo Bob, my temp gauge never moves from cold, EVER.
Help???
Hey Tim ANTIFREEZE is the correct Terminology. I'm old school too....
The explanation for why this mod is needed makes no sense to me. The purpose of the factory thermostat is to block coolant flow until the temperature comes up to the setting of the thermostat. If Kawasaki uses a 160°F thermostat, it should only open when the coolant reaches that temp and then close as soon as it falls 5° or so below. If the engine is running too cool when moving, it suggests that the thermostat isn't working or that there is too direct air cooling from air blowing over the engine.
Have you done Doohickey upgrade ?
I have an older kit installed, where the new thermostat was installed on the hose. It was kind of hard to place everything properly to keep the large thermostat housing from damaging anything.
It works fine but the cooling fan comes on quite often as temperature creeps into the top half of the temperature gauge when I stop at red lights. This happens even in colder weather.
One thing I noticed right away was that I was no longer able to use regular gasoline in the bike. It was pinging badly. I never had this issue before I installed the ThermoBob.
Have you noticed this issue on your bike?
Hi Andrew, Sorry for the long delay in responding.
I have not had that pinging issue with my bike. I'm not sure how the T-Bob would cause that, but it is odd that it coincided with that upgrade. I would recommend contacting Thermo-Bob to see if they have heard of this before. They may have some suggestions.
Thanks for the comment, I wish I had a fix for you.
Hello T2W,
I'm looking for a KLR650 Waterpump seals replacements Video.
Regards.
Joe
Hey Tim, great video. Any update/review on how it has performed since you installed it? Worth it, working as expected, any issues?
My temps continue to be stable and I'm still pleased. I am planning a long-term review to be released over the winter.
Thanks for watching.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question,
What about just removing the thermostat or drilling a small hole in the thermostat to allow the coolant to flow?
You could do that. However, I'm not sure it would provide the same consistency in the average temps. I would expect you would get a consistent cool running temperature.
Thanks for the idea and for watching.
@@Tim2Wheels
Ahhh ok.
Going to order mine Soon. Thnk you Great Channel .
hey tim thanks for the video, very detailed and saved me the hassle of bull shitting around with it. no new videos in 3 months whats going on my man? every time i do something mechanical wise to my klr that i dont know how to i come check you out!
Hey Shane, thanks for the comments. I'm still out here, just been very busy with work and family. I hope to get back to making some new videos soon. Thanks for watching.
Just picked this Thermo Bob kit up and my thermostat does not have a bleed hole. Did they change them? I also ony got 1 thermostat with mine.
I listened to your advice and bought it for my bike klr650 and there was no change in the bike when I am driving the bike in crowded places The indicator rises like the previous science My new bike did not exceed 3000 km
This mod does not change anything about the high temp. Running of the eng.
It helps to prevent the eng. Running cold. So , in a cold day this mod prevent eng. To run cold when u r in freeway.
When u r in traffic jam, your bike temp will go up and fan kicks in, regardless of having this mod or no.
Am I crazy to try for the same results as a Thermo Bob by taping a piece of cardboard over my radiator? I just covered 90% of my radiator and went for a ride on a 60 degree day. The temp gauge stayed just under the half way mark, around 195. Before it wouldn’t go above 120. I’m considering the T Bob but thought I’d try this first.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say you’re crazy, but it’s definitely a gamble and I’m sure you already realize how much temperature fluctuations will affect the efficacy of it.
Honestly, I’d say it’s really only a short term fix at best, and I’d only use it until you can scrape up the cash for something like a thermo-bob.
(Speaking as a motorcycle tech)
hola donde puedo comprar ese kit gracias desde venezuela
Nice video like all your videos they are verry detailed I like that. I have followed along with you on many of your projects and have changed a lot of things on my klr for the better like the doohicky, thermobob, springs, heated grips, etc.would like to know your thoughts and opinions about a product I bought.I purchased a Rekluse clutch. I was just curious if you are going to have any videos on how to replace the clutch and basket. Thanks
Thanks for the comment Tom. I don't have any plans to go to a Rekluse clutch and to be honest, I don't know enough about them to make a informed comment. I have heard good things about Rekluse in other bikes. If you make the change, let us know what you think of it.
Thanks for watching.
How much was the kit ?and do you think it's a must do thing ?
TYhe crash bars kook effective, What brand?
180-195 is very realistic. Below 160 you can have sludge issues and it will not purge moisture from the crankcase efficiently. To cold and its a loss of power due to added friction on the rings and other parts. Meaning less power and accelerated wear. If it could magically never waver from 195 it would be ideal. that being said 210-220 on MOST basic engines is not good either. Especially with dino oils. So id probably go with a 190 for that reason alone. It will fluctuate. If it never hits 210 with the 195, great, but i'm willing to bet it does.
Might be embarrassing myself, but I don't see the need for the bypass hose. Wouldn't the replacement thermostat be sufficient? I couldn't find an explanation on Watt-Man's website. Anyway, great video.
Hi John,
Your question is a fair one. You are correct and ideally there would be no need for a bypass line/hose, but for several reasons, the KLR is known for wide temperature swings, which is not best for any engine. The Thermo-Bob system helps to stabilize the temp in a way that the thermostat alone cannot. The thermostat will change high-end of the operating temp (the open point) with or without a Thermo-Bob, but it does not prevent the wild swings in between that open/close point.
The Thermo-Bob has helped even out the operating temp in all riding conditions from lugging around off road or in town to riding at highway speeds. Before those two extremes would have given me drastically different engine operating temps in both hot and cold weather.
Thanks for the question and for watching.
Tim
See reply to Mikell Derheim above, as he also asked this question.
John, the bypass is there to keep coolant flowing even when the thermostat is closed. Look at the "testing" article at watt-man.com... WITH the bypass, the coolant coming into the engine is 185F, and what's leaving the engine is 195F. That's why car cooling systems have a bypass too - it minimizes the temperature gradients across the engine. If you didn't have the bypass hose, you would see the "before" results at the testing article, where the water that is entering the engine is essentially at ambient temps, because it dwelled in the radiator so long.
hey tim,
NC native here. Thanks for the video. I bought a KLR 250 in Louisiana, I think it was left out in the rain and sat for to long. A couple of times now it has stalled out after riding a while choked out like it was getting gas, usually when I am in a high gear but not always. last weekend it did it after 45 mints and then I had to ride home in 2nd gear. do you think I have something that is cutting the bike off when it gets to hot ? or just junk in the carbs ? petcock ? the tank was rusty so I put the liner in it and a inline filter. Any tips would help.
do you have a video about cleaning the carb ? I know nothing about this stuff if you couldnt tell. Thanks
Nathan Bell - Well, there could be a few things. The carb and a good clean fuel system is a good place to start. I don't have a video on a carb rebuild, but there are a few on CZcams. See if you can find a good Maintenance Manual (like Clymers, etc.) to help you with the details. Once you know the fuel and air system is good, checking the electrical system (stator / coil output) would be wise. All of this is relatively easy work if you have a good manual to step you through.
God luck with your project. Thanks for watching.
I know you have since sold your KLR, but did you have any issue with the overlay causing an issue with the seal between the instrument faceplate and the cover? You mention there being a gasket and I am wondering if the overlay interfered with that gasket.
No, the overlay never caused a problem. I had ridden in very heavy rain, cold, and heat without any fogging or leaks.
Tim2Wheels Thanks. Now that winter has hit with full force in PA, I am planning my mods for the winter workshop season. How is the GS treating you?
@@LTVoyager I'm still loving it. Good luck with your winter projects.
Another good video! The temp gauge overlay? Do they make one for the older model klr?
John Maciejewski - No, not that I'm aware of. I have only seen them for Gen 2 KLRs.
John Maciejewski, yes the Wattman site has a paper template for the temp gauge of the Gen 1 KLR's. The Gen 2 is clear plastic.
Deborah Bicker ok thank you very much
I just bought a second hand klr as my first bike and have noticed that the temperature when riding sits on cold. When idling it gets up to mid range on the gauge. I also have a really annoying, very gentle steady speed surge/rocking at all rpm and gears (except possibly 1st gear). Could these be linked? I previously thought it was the chain tension or fuel tank venting but have checked both and the surge remains. It is almost imperceptible and happens once a second or so.
Ben Mitchell - Hi Ben, My thought is that the two issues are not linked. The temperature swings are "normal" for a stock KLR. The Thermo-Bob helped that with mine.
For the surging, I would try a good cleaning of the carburetor to see if that helps (it usually does).
Maybe others can comment with their experience.
I hope this helps, thanks for watching.
you need to add a couple of shims to needle. they set these up quite lean on lower and mid range. also drill pilot screw access cover to be able to adjust pilot screws. gently close them and open it up to almost 2 full turns.
My 2016 only has 300 miles on it. couldnt I just reuse the coolant?
Sure, with the low miles, it should be in great condition. As long as it is clean.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
how much does this kit cost?
At this time, the kit is $129.00 (USD) from the Watt-Man website. shop.watt-man.com/Thermo-Bob-2-for-KLR650-ALL-MODEL-YEARS-TB2.htm
Why not just remove the thermostat.. insted of adding a by pass kit..
Good question and I don't know if I have the best answer for that. But I think with no thermostat at all the temp would remain on the colder side all the time due to constantly circulating coolant through the system. With a thermostat, it allows the engine to warm up before it opens to allow circulation. The problem with the OEM configuration was those wide temp swings. The Thermo-Bob2 maintains a more consistent, steady operating temp.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
Hi Tim, thank you for the nice video. I consider installing Thermo-bob on my KLR. I know you sold your KLR. While you still had it, did you notice decrease of oil burning after the Thermo-bob was installed and the temperature of the engine became more stable?
My KLR was a 2009 and luckily did not have an oil burning issue. So I can''t say if the T-Bob helped that or not. It did give me very stable temps.
Sorry I can't help with your question.
The Euro/Canadian C model has an original bypass hose/thermo bob. czcams.com/video/j7xRBIRey_0/video.html
See it goes directly into the water pump, it is the smaller hose between the big in/out hoses at the pump.
Why does the C model KLR already have a third hose like the thermo bob? But that one goes down between the other two at the pump, where the A model has a closed attachement there. Look: It goes out from the cylinderhead with the blue "plastic transparent part", under the carburetor, back around the cylinder, back into the where the waterpump is between the two large hoses.
Great video. Would you suggest I wait till the warranty is up before installing the Bob?
Although the KLR is fairly "bullet proof", I think I would wait until the warranty was up. You never know if/when a bigger problem may occur where you need that warranty.
Thanks for watching and for the comment.
feel comfortable enough to a review this product yet? and do you have a do-hickey upgrade? i trust your opinion and love your videos. keep it up!
Yes. I will work on a follow up review video. But it is safe to say that I have been happy with the upgrade. It has provided far better stability in the operating temps.
I'd rather find a external sticker for Temps
why not just get a higher temp thermostat?
That's a fair question. It's not just about achieving a higher operating temperature. The goal is to get a more steady temp. The Thermo-Bob prevents the wild temp swings and provides a steady, predictable range.
Thanks for the question and for watching.
... because you want the coolant flowing all the time, even when the thermostat is closed. Automotive systems have had this benefit for decades, but the KLR tries to save a few bucks by dead-heading the system until the thermostat is open. With the stock KLR setup, the coolant temps entering the engine are significantly colder than the temp exiting the engine. Not good. Well-designed cooling systems rely on high-flowrate, low delta-T - meaning the water comes in at 185, leaves at 195. This way the entire engine is almost the same temperature everywhere (10 degrees from inlet to exit). The stock setup has very large differences in inlet and exit temps, measured at over 100 degrees (see watt-man.com/uploads/TB_Testing.pdf). If you put in a hotter thermostat and no bypass, then the difference between inlet and exit temps is even worse by another 30 degrees.
Has anyone done this install without removing the gas tank and panels ?
I doubt it. Access would be difficult, if not impossible.
But that would be fun to watch. :)
Hey Tim, great video as always. I installed my TB2 this morning after watching your tutorial. I removed the panels, the seat, and the two tank bolts and lifted the tank just enough to apply the torque wrench which was the only thing I couldn't do with the tank on. After all is said and done, It would have been easier to remove the tank. Thanks again for the KLR videos!
@@ralphcatoire9172 - Hi Ralph, I'm glad to here it went well. You should see more stable temps now.
Thanks for the comment and for watching.
@@Tim2Wheels I installed it without removing the tank just used a allen wrench and it went easy.
I'm about to buy a 2014 KLR 650 in the description it says Dew done....what is that
It means the "Doohicky" upgrade has been completed. That's a good thing.
klr sems to have a lot off problems
Iron mechanik - Well, that is true, but I see them as areas of improvement. :)
The KLR is a good overall bike, it's just that for its price point there are definitely performance improvements that can be made. I don't think anyone out there will argue that a KLR is on the same level as, say a BMW GSA or other similar machines, but it doesn't cost you $15-20k either. And the those expensive bikes still have problems and still break down.
For someone looking for a rugged, simple, and well proven dual sport/mid-size ADV bike on a modest budget, it is a good chioce. After making some improvements, you have a reliable machine that will take you anywhere.
After all, KLRs have gone around the world many times and continue to do so.
Thank you for the the comment, it was a fair one. And thanks for watching.
hmmm, Japanese engineers should be pretty smart. Wouldn't one think they designed it this way for a reason?