Do bag pulls in games ever work?
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
- In Episode 117 Mike has been trying out some new games and in so doing has encountered a bag pull initiative system that he found interesting. Glenn is unsure about bag pull systems, and voices some of his concerns. Then they talk about it. This is what we do here.
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Glenn's reaction, to the thought of a colon being refuelled, tickled me.
Yes bag pulls do work.
The bag can do more than just who goes next.
Events, weather and other things that used to be a chart can be done with the bag, like an Age of Sail game that the wind direction matters, can have some pulls that call the shift.
Bags opens up many options.
I used a bag pull system (like Bolt Action) for my 6mm miniature wargame rules ‘All Hell Let Loose’ because I feel it matches the violent, jerky, unpredictable nature of the fighting of the period. A platoon, a company, or a battalion are all roughly the same size in each army too. I wouldn’t use it for some other periods. E.g. in the American civil war, confederate divisions were often significantly larger than the union ones, but the union would have twice as many divisions on the battlefield. I’m not sure the game would work well with say 6 confederate dice in the bag but 10 union ones.
To my mind the decision to use a bag over a deck of cards comes down to the physical element. A bag is better at handling small (4-8) number of items and is quicker to swap items into and out. A deck is quicker to do a single draw or series of draws if the configuration isn't going to change very often past the initial randomisation.
A game where you are putting things in the bag as often as they come out would be quite tedious as a deck, due to constant shuffling.
I think I like the idea of the stones in the bag being a gamified version of the Commanders span of control. So a more skilled commander might take 6, but a particularly bad one may take less. So if players want to take a lot of units, then they have to buy a better commander, or maybe buy lieutenants or 2nd in commands, who can activate multiple units around them to pick up the slack.
The Gates of Antares, which I believe is the same bag pull system as Bolt Action, has the advantage that the stones you pull double as markers that show that the unit has activated and what it did (thus allowing a record of that unit's status, individual reminder of potential modifiers when shooting at it).
Although that moves the discussion outside of the activation discussion, it is worth observing the efficiencies that provides. Once you pull a stone, you don't have to fumble around for another token to show orders and status.
Sure, cards would still perform the same purpose though.
@RuleofCarnage
They wouldn't, as the status of the unit isn't determined by the activation pull. So if the unit runs, the die gets turned to the 'run' side etc. So effectively the playing piece you have in your hand from the activation pull serves as six-markers-in-one. And that is an "elegant" system.
Bolt Action does the same btw.
Bag pulling is sort of the Warlord house style. They have it in the 2000AD games as well, just without the dice, opting for plastic markers instead. Special effects markers part of the bag.
@@gernwind9262 Cards have at least four sides they can be turned to. If they're custom made, eight actually.
I played troika (the rpg) which has a bag pull of, 2 of each players character, 1 of each enemy, 1 that ends the round and you put all chips back in.
the idea is its meant to be more randomised. its fun, and mostly fine in rpg because there's a lot more you're doing than worrying about skipping a couple turns every some number of fights.
we just used a deck of cards.
The other bag pull i'm aware of is epic 40k 3rd edition. where there's 5 chips total, 3 for the side with "higher initiative"
and you pull for each phase, to see who's entire force goes first in movement, then which small unit detachment fires first, then which war engine fires first, then who gets do do all melee combats and charges first.
then you reshuffle
The thing is, that you ended up using a deck of cards is sort of my point. I always have a deck of cards in my gaming bag, I have since the first time I played Malifaux if not before, so if a bag pull can just be a deck of cards, I think it should be.
Personally, it would seem less "solitaire"-y if, after both Combat stones are pulled, the player who pulled fewer (or no) stones automatically get stones equal to the deficit before the round then ends.
At least then, the player who potentially had gotten swarmed and attacked would have a chance to do something in the aftermath. Narratively, a retreat and regroup after a deadly assault or a countercharge that turns the tide.
I agree, its why I find it so baffling that some of these games put in mechanics to force more uneven activations than would happen naturally.
Miniwargaming's new game uses a bag pool and that seems oretty well done.
I don't really like it as a mechanic though.
Loving your content. I'd love to hear your take on the Trench Crusade rules.
Thanks. Its hard to tell since TC is still in development but personally I'd have liked to see more personality put into the core rules rather than the faction system.
@@RuleofCarnage Think CZcams ate my reply. Or I'm about to double reply. Shrug.
I can see your point. Personally, I adore the brutal simplicity of the core rules. I like how easy it is to learn and reach but still heals good depth. I think it's the best ruleset I've read in ages. There is a campaign system as well if you go to the Discord.
Finally, the anime style game you were talking about with the stacked activation mechanic was Relic Knights
@@GrandNagusEli I'm glad you're liking it. It seemed fine to me, I just felt as though by the time it started showing off I'd kind of drifted away. To be honest, with the pedigree behind it I'd have been pretty shocked at anything left. Mostly, I think I just wanted something more Trenchy.
@@RuleofCarnage @RuleofCarnage that's fair. I like rules that are fast and intuitive before getting out of the way. I also love all the fiddly gear and kitbashing opportunities
@@GrandNagusEli I hear that, I just feel like things can be fast and intuitive but characterful as well. My personal taste is about 60% less gear options and 20% more unusual core rules.
I like the cube/ball pull idea. It could be a large impact unit type, like artillery. Do you risk choosing artillery when it could be your game changing artillery, or your Opponents? A great risk/reward decision.
The best bag pull things I've seen is the game called " The Duke". You are playing something like Chess with the ability to bring out more pieces from a bag.
I think I've seen the game around a few times but never played it. Interesting idea.
One "issue" with bag pull is that you cannot form a plan, there can be no plan from turn to turn, its total luck. It goes against the grain of command and control, what's the point of junior officers and NCOs if they have no function?
Yeah, well that's the issue with random activation. Maybe some sort of manipulation of the bag pull process would be appropriate.