Sexism in Kpop dancing?
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- čas přidán 9. 02. 2023
- In the kpop industry, there are obvious differences between girl group and boy group choreography as well as training. Some fans like it the way it is while others want change. I discuss the history and future of this debate and try to put it into a feminist perspective.
www.britannica.com/topic/sexism
#kpop #kpopdance
The men should be allowed to dance more freely and with more expression, not just stereotypically strong and masculine. It limits everyone like you said and it just perpetuates the idea that women and anything relating to femininity as lesser.
to this day I wish boy groups would lean more into femme choreo/voguing and the like. this love by shinhwa is one that comes to mind and I’ve not seen a bg do anything similar or to that level since.
@@kunikuzushis cuz people would assume they’re gay or find any reason to hate on it
@@brennathecatlover4360These people need to learn that those kind of stereotypes are stupid and outdated.
They could if they really wanted to.. Look at Taemin with the Move choreography also having just female back dancers, and this was back in 2017. Jimin with serendipity went also smoother.
@@2222titia true but it wasn’t as feminine as female idol choreo
many of the boy groups "are seemingy afraid to move there hips" HILARIOUS statement but unfortunately so true
i remember when everybody was surprised when everglow released “FIRST” bc it their choreo being powerful like what boy groups does and it’s rare for girl groups to dance that way
yeah I loved the choreography from the first time i heard it. that's why I think groups like everglow, itzy, some loona are important.
remember the boom of loona's cover of cherry bomb
@@yutisima and loona's cover of fire was so good. Even choreos for their combacks like ptt and so what are really powerful and "masculine"
Your last input into this matter is spot on! Honestly I love gg defult choreos, but I also want to see girls exploring a wider variety of dance styles, since their options seem so limited. I wanto to see Fromis9's Hayoung and Lee Seoyeon, Nmixx's Jiwoo, Billlie's moon sua and so many other hiphop based dancers shine in their element rather than to be pushed back into the same box as every other female idol just because they are women.
And as for the boy groups, i feel like the scenary is improving as now many more male idols are doing gg choreos as they should be executed. However, the hypermasculinization is still strong in kpop rn, which is so frustrating.
Overall, I really like your analysis and take on this issue. Great video!
I completely agree! Thank you
I just hope more variety in gg choreos so that those dancers could flex their biggest strength to shine but not just idol dancing all the time. Some idols who are better in open style than idol dancing being unpopular because gg choreos don't accommodate for wider variety of dance styles 😢, like Kep1er Dayeon the groove master in fem open style not that popular because of unclean idol dancing.
P.S. Talking about jiwoo I thought of Kep1er's youngeun, they both are better in other dance style and boy group covers than gg choreos.
I think it's really hard for female idols to do powerful choreography not because they can't, but restricted. Majority of debut gg are young to minor girls, they have to where short skirts, cleverage clothing and high heels. These factors are impossible for them to dance like boy group which have more suitable clothing. And there are these creeps who constantly shove down their camera under girls skirt while performing.
fr I enjoyed songs with choreos like tripleS's Rising
Also, can we get rid of this notion dances and choreos need be extremely difficult or exhausting to be good. There's is so much more to choreography than the level of difficulty. Idols should be able to sing while dancing, if a choreo is really hard and exhausting how are they meant to have proper breath support to sing?
The level of craft that goes into creating and choreo that is simple but engaging is severely underappreciated. Big and fast movements are always going to look impressive. Leaving an impression with something more subtle and gentle is way harder.
One thing nobody mentions is that being skinny is way more forced on female idols than men, and with skinny i mean reduce as much as you can not just the fat but also the muscle mass of your body. Alexa (kpop soloist) was required in produce 48 to reduce a lot her muscle mass because she was already lean but had "too much" muscle that made her too heavy for what the kpop industry is used to.
I say this because male idols can have a little bit of muscle definition that makes a huge diference while dancing powerfull. Even if they give female idols powerfull coreographys, the explosiveness of their moves are never going to be as explosive as the male idols... female idols are just too weak, they eat less and has very little muscle. And its sad because everybody, but specially dancers, needs that minimun of muscle mass to support the bones and joints.
The only hope is that the athletic aesthetic is getting stronger in corea, because of the exposition to international beauty. So i hope it gets better and one day this beauty trend issue is fixed.
THIS! It's not that ggs can't do bg choreo because they lack the skill, they are expected to be so tiny it seems like they literally don't have the muscle and stamina to do it. If you look at female back up dancers they usually have more muscle than most female idols. I think in order for things to change, female idols need to be allowed to not be stick thin. I wish this had been addressed in the video, unless it's not actually an issue? But some of those girls look like they are going to faint just standing there...
This is not true btw, idk if you haven’t noticed most of these kpop men weigh 50-65 kg … that is an incredibly small amount for a grown man, please let’s not act like these young boys often aren’t affected by these crazy beauty standards, i’ve seen clearly that they too struggle with body image. Always discussing each others weights, talking about dieting, looking swollen, and being hungry… yeah these boys are also running on empty. The reason they appear to be more muscular is because they’re men and so by nature they are more muscular. Would you really say e.g TXT members are particularly muscular?
@@hellokitty3935 I don't think anyone was trying to say men aren't affected by extreme beauty standards. I know I wasnt. I am more of a bg stan so I know any male idol over 65kg gets made fun of. It's ridiculous and needs to stop. Skz Changbin, a.c.e Sehyoon, Omega X Sebin are the ones who come to my mind easily. But by contrast, everyone goes gaga when a bts member starts to bulk up and no one is telling Wonho to loose weight. Compare that to the original comment of Alexa having to loose muscle mass or my original comment that dancers can have more muscle than idols. What I was trying to say was that female beauty standards directly effect their ability to dance because they can't even have muscle. Where male idols can. But yeah if a male idol isn't muscular they are still expected to be tiny. I hate hearing about them dieting and starving themselves all the time. The standard needs to change in general.
(I'm old and don't use tone tags but please know I mean this in a genuine, peaceful, it sucks for everyone kinda way)
@@natashaw6346 To be fair though the muscle mass you’re talking about still has to be extremely low body % and very very lean, it’s not like they can get super bulky, actually the muscular types aren’t so popular in Korea, people still prefer their male idols to be skinny. If they have muscle, they have to maintain a crazy low body % which unfortunately still relies on starvation. For example i’ve seen a lot of people call Kai from EXO muscular or praise his body but whenever I see him I think about how crazy strict his diet must be, he has like no fat on his body. Muscle also needs way more calories as it burns them quicker, they’re definitely not eating anywhere near enough. The industry sucks but i don’t know how much the beauty standards impact the choreo they do.
@@hellokitty3935 "looking muscular" and "having more muscle mass than female idols" are two different things, clearly men have more muscle mass, and yes, hormones like testosterone help them having more muscle, but biology differences are irrelevant in this conversation since we are talking about how having less muscle mass affects performance, and diet also plays a big role in keeping and increasing muscle mass, not just hormones, and female idols are pushed way more to diet than male idols to achieve this "body aesthetic". Change in photoshop the head of a male idol for a female idol and you will see the difference, when i say "muscle" i am not talking about monstaX shownu's type of muscle. If you see alexa's body and compare her to any male idol you can see how alexa looks more skinny (in volume overall in proportion for her body) than the male idol, yet people still see alexa as "muscular" and the male idol as "skinny", even though both just have more muscle mass than the typical female idol, and same thing happens with female back up dancers.
I never said male idols dont suffer from the korean beauty standars, i know it affects them as well, but we can not deny that having more muscle mass (again not talking about being muscular) it has a huge impact in the explosiveness while dancing.
Dont try to do a "gender war", just pointing out the obvious. I am a boygroup stan as well, and i know the struggles of male idols and i hate it. I hope one day this crazy beauty standars change so both male and female idols can stop worrying for having that skinny body. Their bodys are their tool for work, its very sad.
So many times I see the discussion of GG vs BG dances end in “GGs should dance more like BGs!” which still implies that BG is somehow the “better” style of dance and if GGs danced “better” they would dance like BGs. I’m so glad to see someone breaking that take down, not in an “either or” but rather “both”. Both dance styles are valid, and both GGs and BGs would benefit from being allowed to explore different styles in their choreo.
Ikrr I hate it if people said in order to be equal to men we have to be masculine, which I think is rubbish. We need to change the perception that being feminine equals being weak. I want to see women/girls that are so feminine but considered equal if not better than men in their own field.
Personally, I just like seeing women do powerful things. I like powerful and hiphop choreography in general. I don't know if I would count as one of the people you're talking about, but I have wished that girl groups could get more variety in their dances. I also would say "girls should do this style more often." I never believed it was specifically for men, but like the video said, I understood the public seemed to have different expectations for them.
There is no " better" or " worse" only different.
Variety is a good thing.
Don't just think outside the box, smash the box!
Also different song, choreo actually more related to the song than the singer,
cheer up can't have heavy choreo just like how catch me if you can - SNSD can't have cutesy dance number,
exo has cute song with cute choreo and the dance mostly dictate by the song itself,
most of BG song is more suited to dance of because they sound like dance soundtrack, fast, very upbeat and that's why people say it's cooler,
but people also appreciate good GG dancing when it's a dance track, like dance the night away , gfriend and itzy choreo,
people appreciate dance track when talking about dance just like how people appreciate vocal heavy song for appreciating vocal.
@@kittycatsy
I wanna dare to those who think ballet is easy to dance it perfectly and to stop labeling feminenity as weak
The perfect case study for this topic is BoA.
BoA is easily one of the greatest dancers in K-pop, from her consistency, longevity, versatility, and technique.
BoA has made it a point to be taken seriously as a singer, because during her early years people really overemphasized her dancing over her musical ability. So that can result in moments where she really softens her choreography to ensure she has the stamina for live singing. But when she is 100% on and focused only on the dancing, it's a sight to behold.
Additionally because she started so early in 2000, you can see how the trends shifted and how the audience would perceive dance across age and gender.
Because of her vast career, you can clearly see when her routines are about honoring the musicality of the songs (e.g. Only One, Better, or the early releases that rightfully avoided any kind of sexuality). But then you can see when the team would try to make her more "relatable" or "womanly" and create routines that de-emphasized technique. Sometimes this was in favor of creating a routine that was more accessible for the audience to learn and do. But sometimes it was literally her and her team pushing against the "BoA the artistic-dance robot-girl crush-man eater" in favor of "see BoA can be feminine too!!!".
Yep that’s right. BoA once talked about choreo of “Kiss My Lips” to be more feminine and first time she ever danced in skirts. One Shot Two Shot, Nega Dola were some of the efforts to make “catchy point choreos”. And “Woman” is BoA strutting in heels upside down as THE freaking entrance. BoA makes it very clear she as a woman can be pretty, elegant, graceful; as well fierce, powerful, and energetic. Those qualities can coexist
Really love your video. With my friends, who are all dancers, we discuss this topic a lot.
But I feel like some gg start to explore more types of dances nowadays. Look at LE SSERAFIM or Newjeans for example. First of all, we have LE SSERAFIM who do some waacking and a little bit of commercial dancehall and on another hand, we have Newjeans who do some more hip-hop-based dance style. Even a little bit of afro in OMG with a variant of the Gwara Gwara step. But you are right. GG are still stuck in this very feminine choreos.
P.S. : I hope that if Hanbin from Boys Planet ends up in the debut group, they will do something with his waacking and tutting skills. I wanna see some other styles in boy groups too. They are somehow stuck in this strong hyper-masculinized dance style.
Agreed! Though I feel like waacking has been the most common street style to use in gg choreo for a while now, for example Kara, the first produce series, Chungha and Momo obviously have also used overheads, rolls etc in choreos. It would be cool if the boys planet group will actually integrate it as well 😁
The fact that his signature move is the tutting heart gives me so much hope
i knowwww im gonna be so disappointed if they manage to deyassify hanbin 😢
13:05 This reminds me of A.C.E's main dancer Kim Byeongkwan, who once noted that he highly respected the typical choreo gg's do because of the body control necessary to execute them.
@@jygsaw7771 trueee, I remember that!!
do you have a clip?
I wish this video was an hour long! So many great points made. Misogyny has society in a grip. It irks me so much when people underestimate GG choreo because it LOOKS easy but the detail and discipline is still challenging and deserves more praise. It's no different to being able to sing well quietly, everyone can be loud and brash but to be refined with dynamics and technique requires a lot of work.
Great point at the end there too, I loved Pixy's Bewitched choreo and i'm about to deep dive into more Nmixx choreo.
reminds me of when kai disregarded gg dance of gfriend on a variety show.. and said it was easy
Dreamcatcher Choreography is the perfect balance between dynamic and shapes, pretty and power
6:17 This is something I've wondered for a while ever since I found out that a lot of the stereotypically pretty kpop dances are choreographed by Kyle Hanagami, Willdabeast Adams and Giselle Jinestra. There's nothing wrong with with easy or "pretty" choreography, but it's like some choreographers put on a filter (for lack of better word) when they make these dances. The dances they make for girl groups and the dances they make for classes look totally different. But I never understood why it had to be that way. It's like all the girls aren't capable of doing harder dances and the only teachers who seem to get that is whoever's choreographing for Itzy and NMixx and BB Tripping when they choreographed First by Everglow.
everglows first is a very good example of a choreography that doesnt contain the “typical” gg style choreography . bbtrippin have my respect for choreographing a dance for a group while disregarding their gender , since this is very rarely done in kpop . the dance has powerful and stereotypically “masculine” movements but also contains stereotypically “feminine” movements and mixes the styles flawlessly . wish more gg choreographers would do that
It also seems many female kpop choreographies are very similar from a quick glance because their upperbody is almost always just upright and their legs turned inwards to seem shy and their arms moving very elegantly.
When i first joined kpop i found that so boring. But i learned more about dancing over the years luckily 😅
Love the video!
I hate the divide between the genders in dance. Also koreans love to gender everything and actually believe the stereotype is 100% true and applicable to 100% of society, and then proceed to get shocked when there’s someone who is good at something “only the other gender does”
It’s funny because I’ve always strongly preferred girl group choreographies and boy group choreographies all look samey to me. Always half chrouching, throwing their arms around really fast and a distinct lack of hips.
So I think it is a matter of preference and how that affects perception. I think when you’re more “into” a genre you recognize and appreciate subtler nuances more. Girl group choreos are more varied than they’re given credit for, especially nowadays.
I really like SEVENTEEN's Darling choreo, it's pretty.
I also really like Fallin Flower- it has elegant and beautiful moments and powerful ones too! There are so many complicated and precise movements too
And Wave.
Im sorry to the video maker but Dino dances gg dances with actual skill.
I really resonated with the last point you made about girls not needing to change to an open style, I also think that puts all the onus on the women to change and further perpetuates the fact that feminine dance styles are considered inferior. This was such a great video, keep it up!!
you are one of my favorite dance-related channels💟💟💟
Thank you so much!
The industry does not take female idols as seriously as they do their male counterparts. When girl groups cover boy group songs it’s treated as serious and skilled while vise versa boy groups covering girl group dances are seen as a joke and playful. To make matters worse, some girl groups don’t make the most of their body (no jumping, acrobats, intense moves). The guys wind up making use of their full bodies more times than not, while a good amount of girl groups clearly lack the skill to execute the same choreo with an equal level performance. There are female idols who dance well, but too many of them dance well in a specifically cutesy and stereotypically feminine way. That’s why K-pop needs more dancers like Minzy from 2ne1, Hyoyeon from SNSD, Jihyo and Momo of TWICE, and BoA. I will say though, groups like WJSN and G-Friend made excellent use of their body capabilities but not in the the way some boy groups do. For instance they used intricate hand movements and symbols and made patterns using the member count. There are boy groups that do this, but I wish K-pop was not so stiff about the portrayal of its groups dances. Girl groups need to be given more styles of dancing to try and boy groups don’t always have to dance with such intensity. Not every group should dance the same way,in order to be considered “good” though. I’m just saying versatility needs to be applied across the board.
Edit: I wrote this before watching the video. 😂 I agree with the points made. I always have to pull receipts on the women who made boy group dances to refute the argument that women are just naturally not as good as men in dancing.
Such an amazing video on a really interesting and important topic! I would really love to see you dissect and analyze KARD and their choreography. Since they're the only active co-ed group right now, I feel like it's a very rare opportunity to observe chroeos that actively and continuously combine "feminine" and "masculine" dances, choreos, lines, genres, etc. In each choreography, the male members have to conform to female members as much as the female members have to conform to the male members. There's also a difference in size, shapes, and each member's skill as well. Looking at the choreo for Ring the Alarm, it's much more girlish. So I would truly love to see your take on that, especially with the way you can then correlate it to this video. Thank you for all your hard work and for sharing your insight!
THANK YOU i was waiting for someone to mention KARD because i really appreciate the way they incorporate both masculine and feminine styles for all the members and they all can execute it naturally without looking awkward
This, I just writing a comment about KARD, and after scrolling down, I found your comment! love!
I wouldn't say that I prefer the "masculine" form of dance. I've always prefered watching powerful choreography and dances. I love(d) gfriend and Dreamcatcher because their dances are powerful and pretty. I'm always surprised when women do powerful choreography not because I'm shocked that they are able to, but because it was given to them in the first place. I've been thinking for years it would be fun if girls weren't restricted to being pretty and the guys cold be a little more chill 😅 If I were a dancer, I would probably be reluctant to become an idol because my choreography would become limited. I'd want to show fun and powerful looking stages as well as the elegant and pretty ones.
Thank you for this enlightening video essay! Definitely puts a lot of my own thoughts into better words. This sharp divide was the most jarring thing by far when I got into Kpop, and freaked me out so much I've mainly avoided girl groups altogether, not due to having anything against the girls themselves, but for the super-perfect girly-sweet physicality they all exude, in dance and outside of it. It's not their fault, it's only what they're taught, but it's so darn far from anything seen from adults in the west. The idea that someone like me could be viewed the same way with no opportunity for alternative... it scares me. But if the bounds are softening already, I'm sure things will head in a good direction.
When I first got into kpop, I felt similarly. Over time I gained appreciation for the gg style, but I hope that there will be (even) more variety of what girl groups can do in the future
it’s not that male idols are “seemingly afraid to move their hips” 7:27 , it’s that they weren’t trained to have much control in the waist area. (i assume you didn’t mean that statement quite literally but still) male idols tend to add more strength into the waist unconsciously. i’ve noticed that a lot of gg choreography emphasize movement in the waist and hip area while bg choreo doesn’t focus on it as much. I think a good portion of male idols just aren’t familiar with that more relaxed vibe and flow.
companies don’t teach bg more feminine dances because they think it makes them less masculine (which is obviously wrong and rooted in homophobia + toxic masculinity) even though it would probably help them limit and control their strength.
Its wild to see the difference between 2nd/3rd gen ggs choreos and BoA's choreos, she had so many good ones like Eien, Sweet Impact, Style, Bad drive, Dakishimeru, Bump bump, Eat you up, Only one ughhh I love her
I'm surprised that Jimin and Taemin weren''t specifically called out in your commentary? Jimin, in particular, has been criticized for the feminity of his dancing even though he's known to be one of the top dancers in all of k-pop. I would love to see more dancers with his blend of training and styles as the solution to this problem.
Ngl I like dancing/covering gg WAY MORE but I also want everyone to show their skill/ potential. So I agree there should be more variety
This is why I find all these idol rankings based on open style dancing so annoying. Thanks for putting it in words for me
I prefer dance analysis providing both open style dancing and idol dancing ranking tho… You think doing idol open style dancing is annoying so you mean those who unfortunately dances much better in open style than idol dancing shouldn't be given credit? So sad… Open style ranking for idols can let kpop fans know what dancing they are truly good at, not bad dancers just not specialized in gg choreos
Eg. Kep1er Dayeon is unpopular because people only know her dance is not clean but not know her fem open style groove top 3 in kpop, and a lot of people criticising nmixx jiwoo not as impressive in her predebut dance covers…
P.S. i was ashamed of my typo
@@dhy0114 I agree that the best way is to include analysis of both if possible, but for most gg dancers there is little to no content for "open style" because they rarely dance it. So rankings of female idols only based on that rarely make sense to me.
Taemin is always at the top of the best dancers lists though while being famously opposite to the powerful style, especially solo?
But yeah, on the boys' side I would love to see more choreos not being afraid to dip into what we consider feminine moves like Ateez's Deja Vu 😍
Very true about Taemin, but I think he as 40/60 mix of both "feminine and masculine" choreos. But he has some of the best gg covers, when he did snsd Genie he did not exaggerate the moves and always knew how to move his hips. Since he rarely does K-pop covers, people forget how good he is at gg covers.
Something that frustrates me is how this additionally seems to extend to the way groups are expected to present when promoting the members themselves, particularly given the (still fairly recent, i.e. culturally relevant) popularity of SWF.
I've been trying to gradually compile a list of what styles various gg members have trained notably in (i.e. more than a few basics classes at the behest of their company), and I struggle to find girls talking about or demonstrating their skills. Even in the case of someone saying they have a basis in hiphop or street dance, they often don't really demonstrate this outside specific contexts if at all. For example, while the members of WooAh have shown their skill (especially recently) in their own content, when they were on Weekly Idol and Nana prepared a performance to showcase this she just performed a Blackpink choreography.
That isn't to say the choreography is bad nor that she didn't dance well, but as you point out in your Big 3 gg ranking their choreographies are commercial which is not the best option at all imo to demonstrate style/ technical proficiency. This seems to be a fairly consistent issue - styles like whacking, vogue, and dancehall can be shown on variety shows for example no problem, but hiphop, krump, and locking are saved for survival shows or content you'd only really see as a serious fan.
I think they shouldn't have changed the choreo of ktl in boys planet, i wish they had done it with the original but they had to make it more "masculine"
Why lol it's not that deep they're men so they obviously prefer being masculine
@@cassie8844 well then they should have changed the boy group choreographies in gp999 to make them more feminine, because girls prefer being femenine don't they?
@@cassie8844 well actually the people who danced ktl in boys planet have a history with gg dances and feminine choreographies outside kpop, so your point makes no sense
You were mad because they didn't dance the way you wanted? uwu 😢
@@Tontoquienloleation well yeah it's kinda cringe. Feminine dances have always been looked down upon in kpop. In 2nd gen boy groups covering girl groups song was comedy.
It would be awesome to see a serious cover
amazing video! i think you did a pretty good introduction/analysis of this. i can’t leave a longer comment like i usually do but i enjoyed this one a lot~ i hope the people that should watch this do lol ;p
OMG I FEEL EDUCATED!!! thankyou so much for this video! I'll keep waiting for your content!!
there are SEVERAL fandoms that need to watch this video omg 😭 thank you sm this is literally what i've been arguing with people about for years. people are always yapping about female dancers but NEVER let them grow or experiment with their style like exactly what happened to jihyo 😭
I often thought about this topic but it was hard for me to get to any conclusions. Your video explained a lot and made it clear. To addicion to what you said I think that female idols don't have strenght to dance the same as male idols because of toxic beauty standard, but it's slowly changing and you can see female idols with muscles nowadays but stiil.
Thankyouuu I've been searching forever for an analysis like this on Reddit
this is one of the best kpop youtube essays ive watched !! this was so well researched and structured, im in awe
what an excellent analysis! i was expecting this video to be more of a surface-level analysis, but you're really familiar with the history of dance, especially in regards to South Korea! Heck, I'm a dance major (graduating this spring!) and we aren't educated on the more recent history, I only know as much as I do because I've been very involved in it throughout my life. So refreshing to see someone on the k-pop side of youtube *actually* know what they're talking about and present a straightforward argument. So refreshing!!! I'm gonna stick around for sure, well done :) a very important perspective that needs to be made known
great vid. i agree especially with how trends and views have progressed, especially with respect to the skill involved in girl group dances. to add to the conversation, i think it would be so interesting to hear your opinion on the recent choreographies of KARD, the co-ed kpop group. i think they put some of these topics on full display in their dances, from purposefully splitting choreo between the group members by gender, as well as purposefully having everyone do the moves equally, but with their individual styles. their recent song "ring the alarm" comes to mind. i love BM's execution of the chorus dance-wise
I subbed because of your informative and enlightening dance analysis videos but this one...I KNEW you were a great channel. Really loved this video! Thank you for making it!
this is really thoughtful and well said, I totally hadn’t thought about how it goes all the way into training periods. Really like this video
thank you for this video! you summed up my thoughts perfectly on this topic!
wow this is such a great analysis of sexism in kpop through the lens of dancing!
The female idol dancers should be allowed to eat freely and gain muscle mass so that it helps them to hit those powerful moves . A very good example is momo . My girl hits the gyms lifts those weights and got stronger plus working out builds endurance. And bg choreos with more of fluid movements are a big yes .
Really enjoyed that you mentioned pixy, I'm so glad that people like you appreciate what they're doing!
OnlyOneOf has a unique style that meshes masculinity/femininity, they've created their own lane with their music and choreography that doesn't follow the typical boy group in today's KPOP industry. The newer GGs seem to incorporate a wider range of their training into their choreography as their concepts within one comeback can be just as varied. Not all GGs, mind you, some stick to the tried/true method and if that works, more power to them. Some GGs are diversifying because the members have the training but there are levels - you work with what you have. Not all groups are Seventeen (BG or GG).
I love this video, it makes so many good points that i've been tthinking, the only thing i would add that i think is a huge factor on this topic is how many gg choreos are often made with the male gaze in mind, i feel like in 2nd and 3rd gen it was way more evident with how popular sexy concepts were, but it still feels like a lot of the moves their dances have are targeted to their male dominated audience. It can be something similar with how bgs often do sexy moves to attract a "female" public, but taking into consideration the sexist culture in both sk and the world, its a more clear problem with women still being seen as only a sex object, or sit still look pretty you dont need to do anything else
I love your conclusion about not asking girl groups to change their signature styles, or basically just, not putting the onus on them to break this stereotypical image.
Rather, fans should make themselves more aware of the narrative that's being pushed on them. Part of deconstructing the myth about boy groups v girl group dances is obviously, the industry allowing idols/groups to do ALL kinds of styles without limitation. But the other part are just fans not allowing themselves to deceived by the very rigid gender portrayals of kpop media.
Even if it's just for fun. Even if its "just kpop" as consumers and as human beings we should always have our eyes open to biases around us. With kpop its almost scary how easily outdated and sexist beliefs can be woven into a group's image and performance, and further into the minds of their consumers. There are many talented dancers on both sides, and as fans of the genre, we should be giving ALL of them the credit they deserve.
So interesting ! I love how you analysed this topics and bring arguments to explain your point, it was very constructive and interesting ! I love so much your channel, keep going !
(Sorry if I made mistakes, i'm not an english speaker :'))
Thank you so much!
awesome video and I totally agree with you!! well said
Im so excited to watch this! Omg
I love your video, I learn a lot as a non dancer. I also have an observation tell me if I’m wrong you earlier mentioned itzy choreographies being praised because of the toughness of their dance and I actually see a before and an after itzy, i feel like they brought something to 4th gen with choreography and performance like not shy, wannabe, loco and even dalla dalla as I see more girl group from the recent years who have harder dance like nmixx lesserafim ect but I also like groups like Ive who sticks to the point dance ,like you said,because it’s really enjoyable I actually like the diversity of the dances now. I would also like to mention groups like everglow who also brought different style in their dance and the are really enjoyable to watch like in ladida (they had a move from a dance style I think it voguing but not sure).
And for the girls with a more hip hop background or street dancing who are accused to overdance kinda annoys me because it just an excuse to underestimate their dancing abilities for example Momo who is an exceptional dancer is criticised for this? Kyujin from nmixx also recived this kind of criticism when dancing to hype boy finally yeji from itzy is accused of this whenever she dance “too” energetically. Yeah anyways hope you read my comment, love your videos you do a great job explaining the history behind dance even people like me (who never danced ) can understand ✨❤️
Beautifully crafted and defended thesis, thank you
You made a video of something I thought about for years and that several times made me stop listening to kpop because I saw that nothing changed. Some time ago I came back because I really like the music. I always liked boy groups more because of the freedom and greater variety of movements that they gave them, then I discovered a lot ggs that now are my favorites but in terms of choreography I see it stays the same. I always keep looking for girl groups that have more freedom. I hope this changes. (if there is a grammatical error I blame the translator jsjdixhs)
Girlsband who have more freedom in choreo : Newjeans!
Very interesting that you mentioned Astro as standouts (with Infinite) about this in particular. I don't have the knowledge or vocabulary to put it into words, but it always seemed to me like they have a different "vibe" than other boy groups in their dancing. This might have been why!
As someone in a mainly girl dominant cover group, there is genuinely no reason the girl groups cannot do the boy group dances except them having to hold a particular image. It is strongly tied to the strong sexist images in South Korean (and all of the world)
Wonderful analysis!
Excellent video!
I think 10 years along I would say that this sentiment was very true in K-pop. In 3rd gen I think starting break this by using more Boy group choreographers. Back then it was about performance but now it more about execution. BoA definitely was the exception.
I'm really love your videos,I'm curious about how you considering the dance styles of Hikaru and Dayeon from Kep1er. I want your professional opinions about these two girls.
Great video, I especially loved the conclusion in the end, on why girl groups shouldn't start doing more powerful choreography just to prove stereotypes wrong. Seeing how Le Sserafim learned a new routine just to appease male idols who would join them on the challenges really irritated me.
I also think that the music and a fitting style should always come first. Itzy, for example, shouldn't have to dance neck breaking choreo all the time, just because it's part of their image. The same goes for boy groups.
I really loved your video
So interesting - classic example - In the past Fred Astaire dancing with partners who did the same dance he did, yet, he was touted as a superb dancer and they were ignored. Your conclusion is very insightful. Thanks for a thoughtful discussion.
Very on point! Would you analyze shinee next?
I might do in the future :)
From this video something came to my mind: Females can dance both feminine and masculine style and it's viewed as amazing but if men dance with feminine style they're viewed as gay and it's weird cause when females dance masculine they're not viewed as lesbians.
I think about that comment Kai made about Gfriend all the time. It’s kind of odd because my favorite powerful male choreos were created by women.. Bada lee (who choreographs for Kai himself 🙄), Sienna Lalau, Koharu Sugawara….all who you mentioned. How can idols say those things about women when they work with crazy powerful female dancers??
Tbf the average gg choreo during his generation and before (so 2nd and 3rd gen) were not open style/groovy/hip hop/acrobatics. There's a huge difference in skill and athleticism required for choreos from say nmixx and rv. I highly doubt Kai would be making the same comments to Nmixx or Itzy
Snsd's IGAB was considered their hardest choreo to the point where they traded their heels for sneakers, but IGAB actually isn't all that challenging when you assess the choreo. It's good that gg choreo standards have been increasing over the years (an example of stronger feminine choreo is lsfm)
@@nicolegoh9748 yeah that's absolutely a good point. Although, I do think his comments, if translated correctly, were a little more pointed than that. He said what he does is choreography for men and I just find it hard to believe that in 2017 he'd never encountered female dancers who could dance/deliver difficult choreography with just as much intensity as him--whether in or out of a girl group. That said, I've never been on a program like this lol it's probably hard to always say exactly what you mean to all the time. He deserves the benefit of the doubt, as you point out, to discuss the plain-as-day differences in choreo between bg and gg at that time. It's possible he didn't mean to make a sweeping statement, but his comments DO merit some discussion nevertheless...
Diversity is the best. You can't have only difficult or easy ones, it would get boring anyway, sometimes easy with a memorable choreo is so so good. Plus it is objectively difficult to sing and dance with a hard choreo so both are necessary for balance
Diversity are on Girlsband's choreo like Newjeans who mix hip hop moove, freestyle moove, ballet, tap dance and fun tiktok moove specially on Ditto's choreo
I have a genuine question. I notice that it’s a lot easier for guys to feel like they’re “filling up the space”, if that makes sense. There’s just always something about boy group choreography and the way the guys carry themselves that make their entire presence feel bigger in a way compared to girl groups. Why is this? Is it because their choreography involves their whole body more often? Or is it just me?
It might be that boy groups have more of a forward leaning posture and use their arms in a wider and bigger way, combined with overall more energetic execution that probably creates this effect
@@facts_in_fictionthanks for answering. Also, I agree with most of your takes in the video except that girl group choreography don’t need to be harder. I’m not asking for them to adapt to boy group style dancing, but I really do want more girls doing more difficult versions of what they’re already doing. Take advantage of their preexisting style and do more stuff like Move or Love Whisper. Because as of right now, at least in my opinion, most girl group choreography still very much lack the wow factor present in pretty much every boy group choreography. It’s not that girls can’t look impressive without being masculine, but I’m tired of girl group choreography looking simple even if they aren’t ACTUALLY simple. Like, as someone who doesn’t dance, asking me to figure out girl group dance moves is possible for a large chunk of them but put an average boy group dance in front of me and chances are I need a guide to break it down.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Taemin's dancing w/r/t gendered choreography - specifically Move and Want.
From what I’ve seen stray kids are one of the groups that really helped to stop this mockery with their genuinely enthusiastic twice covers.(/Chan being lowkey twices baby brother while Felix (+some others) being absolute twice stans.)
I see this same type of sexism in regards to girl group songs compared to boy groups. It isn’t just dance training, it’s also their vocal training and what type of songs which groups get.
Good essay, you're right! People who just see men as good dancer didn't know about dance + sexism it's like saying ballet is inferior to hip hop because it's just looking pretty when it require a lot of techniques
So that's what it is...
I couldn't explain why I felt like Twice's "More & More" choreo felt like a boys band choreo. Just because it involved jumping and a lot of limbs movements, like you said... "More & More" is considered to be Twice's hardest choreo though.
There is not a video of trained dancer react to any gg choreo where they drop basically asian squat and go back up is two seconds and the dancer making an ugly expression and saying that must burn. It's freaking hard, just because they do it elegantly doesn't change that. Examples like fearless during yunjin's part, dalla dalla or not shy or even mafia by itzy, can't stop me at the last chorus if I'm not mistaken, lilifilm 3, the boombayah intro especially Lisa doing a whole ass inner tigh workout and also whistle in the rap parts. Those are hard choreos for the legs, but many look at the pretty hands. Boys too have hard things that aren't of strong impact: the first that comes to mind is hoshi's spider intro where he is literally upside-down, kai and taemin body wave in mmmh and move, svt isolating their bodies like no tomorrow and popping during the silent part before the last chorus of fear or them just walking in a cross formation. Those are hard too, but to some extent more recognized. I have seen only one gg that is the exeption, meaning people are not surprised when they nail a male choreo and that is nmixx (to some extent itzy too, but Idk if they ever did a male cover) cause their svt cover was just like the name very nice not only in dance, which even if not their most complex still pretty hard, but also the stable vocals. In my opinion one of the best dancers is Hoshi, I'm actually fairly new to caratland, so I can say that I'm not that biased, but of course I don't know every dancer and we don't get to see many dancers full potentials. However we can see Hoshi's full potential thanks to his agency letting him choreograph many of their dances since debut and he has been so consistent in how good he and his whole group is that is something we don't see a lot. I'm a long time blink and we have been told that Lisa choreographed all their choreos when they were trainee and we have slight proof of how good that may be in the bitch better have my money choreo (if she took part in that too) however we don't see her full potential nowadays so saying she is the best, even if she could be, isn't right. There are many dancers that deserve and will deserve this title in the future, Chaeryoung is a great dancer, so is Niki, so is Yeonjun or Hyunjin or Jiwoo or San or Karina or Yeji. They can still grow. Also many of the "older" idols too are great, but I personally would put Hoshi or Jhope as the best mainly because we are able to see the widest potential they can offer, even Jimin has showed mainly in black swan his contemporany style of dance, now I'm not saying that he should through a ballet move every five seconds... even if I would oppose to that either, but I feel that to be the best dancer aside from subjective factors the main one is showing the full extent of your skills
Seeing this video has made me understand why I love the choreos of Infinite so much! Their style is ultimately commercial jazz funk, boygroup coded to look “masculine”.
this a great video
I think its important to notice that some men may actually be able to dance girlgroup dances BUT bcs toxic maculinity they are often made fun of and get their sexuality questioned if they do so.
Bcs they might have a fragile masculinity, they avoid to even try slightly move their hips unless it's to hip trust the shit out of air. I don't blame them for it, at the end they are just victims of society expectations just like women are in other cases.
Everytime a male idol dances perfectly to girlgroups the comments are always "he is just so fruity" or things like that. While i do understand its not a bad intention, it just reeinforces the idea that men can never act feminine without having their sexuality questioned...same for girls acting more masculine and getting labeled as the lesbian of the group.
Being called Gay or lesbian is not an insult but no one likes to be constantly questioned about something as personal as sexuality just bcs we choose to act how we want and like to.
Gay men can be masculine and feminine men can be straight
Lesbian women can be feminine and masculine women can be straight.
I also think many young girls like to normalize the "I hate men" and "kill all men" and label it as feminism when it really isn't. Feminism is justice for both genders and to break free from society's expectations of us so we can all have the freedom of choice.
I understand when you are saying "I hate men" you are really just referring to misogynists but why not say "I hate misogynists" instead? We should all come together to fight, open up and understand eachother better and those phrases just set us more and more apart
Someone did a video essay about kpop boysbands loosing 4th gen popularity and that's the truth! It's kpop girlsbands who are trendy like Ive, Newjeans, Le Sserafilm etc
7:39 damn the points made here
As someone who got into Kpop because of dance (not because of the music originally), I never liked any girl groups, as I thought they all leaned heavily into the stereotypical feminine side, as you said looks pretty and is not as aggressive. Personally, I love aggressive and energetic dancing, or more sexy rather than cute/pretty. Ultimately I discovered Mamamoo and became a big fan just because they seem to be able to do a great mix of masculine/feminine energy in their group, with sexy and bad ass vibes. So I think my strong preference for boy groups comes down to the lack of similar choreos and styles in girl groups. I am also a HUGE Rie Hata and Aiki fan, and would love to see a girl group with members that can show that level of badass strong dancing they do. Definitely feel like the industry is catering to beauty and gender standards though, from a patriarchy perspective. So female idols are moulded to be cute and sexy but innocent at the same time, catering to the standards of Korea and probably many other countries… very cool video, thank you!
I agree that the dance styles chosen by majority of groups perpetuates sexist stereotypes. I do not have a background in dance, only gymnastics. But that alone has helped me realise girl group choreo is all about posture, form and formation. Which is why i still struggle with boy group choreo. Not because It's more difficult in general, but because i hold on to my posture and form while dancing. Which makes the movement look stiff. Why didn't i learn any of this sooner... I would be so much better if i had practised more variety of dance earlier... 😭
I was one of the people who though that girl group dances are easier, but then I tried high heels and it was an eye opening experience, so I understand a bit better now, but those male choreos are harder for me still, especially the footwork and all of the jumping...
I think part of the problem is seeing the "pretty", upper-body focused choreo is somehow weaker or easier. It isn't. There's still work, skill, stamin, etc. needed for that. But because it's not full-body "explosive", it's somehow easier or lesser?? No, that's not true.
back then when 2AM covered Good Girl Bad Girl it was pretty much mocking but you gotta mention boy groups who cover girl group songs in a respectful and not mocking way 'cause I think now there's more of them, examples could be SKZ covering Twice songs or that 00s Psycho cover
I ever seen some thai tiktok channel that ranking idols with dance tiers, the highest tier they gave to female idols was around 54 or 5 while they gave male idols was 1 or 2 because male idols look power and impressive.
nah i miss the 3rd gen kpop girl choreo, slow and sexy T.T aoa was my fav back then
What are your opinions on sensual boygroup dances? I personally think deja vu by ateez has some feminine sensuality in the choreo, not alot but i feel like its there
I would love for you to cover BTS and their dance discography! They're known for their explosive, masculine performances, but they also have songs like Black swan, serendipity, singularity, lie, filter, etc. These dances not necessarily masculine or feminine, and I'm curious to see how you feel about how they fit in the gender divide that's so prominent in kpop choreos.
I was going to type out a point like this but found this comment. 100% true. I mean, look at Jimin's newest song Like Crazy dance choreo! And even within Hybe, TXT's Sugar Rush Ride has tons of feminine energy, whereas La Serrafims dancing in anti-fragile has a ton of masculine boss energy!
Your comment makes me think of Jimin and JK covering "Coming of Age Ceremony". It feels like human sensuality. Both female and male combined.
when it comes to entertainment.. it's all about the money. They follow where the money is.
Every idol has a technique that goes more towards masculine or feminine with the rates idol who can do both. For instance, in ITZY, Ryujin is masculine, Yuna, Chaeryeong, and Lia are feminine and Yeji is both. Creating choreo that recognizes that is the best thing. Taemin's Move works so well as a gender neutral dance because Taemin is also both. But, choreographers who are only thinking about the song and not the dancers aren't making a good choreo.
Personally for me I really dislike commercial because of the lack of levels which I find visually boring. However I much prefer western commercial because it’s more dynamic, but all in all I just want to see more variety in styles, levels and dynamics . However different dance styles have a lot of history behind and I don’t want K-pop groups to adopt them if they aren’t doing it respectfully and give acknowledgement of the cultures they take inspiration from. Also better technique all around for all groups
But I have a hiphop/street background
Why are we comparing these things?😅.. it's just learning by doing...
what do you think about nct 127's ay-yo choreography?
The reasons i don't like girlgroups is because they are dancing cutely like 10 years old kids. It is not about sexism, it is abous taste. I'm an adult, I like strong badass performance. So far the only gg which i like is only CRAXY and Blackpink
You should try loona, especially some of their older songs like colors or so what which have more difficult choreos. I can give you a link which has dance practices for both
I cant name a single girl group that dance like a "10 YEAR OLD" so i dont know what are you talking about also being an adult doesnt mean anything in this matter
@@kelly-ro9re there many. 4th gen ggs are all dancing cutely and childishly like 10 yrs old kid. New jeans, stayc, ive, etc. Disgusting.
Dreamcatcher is the girl group for you bro, no other gg is stronger or more badass.
@@PlasticBagInWind i know DC, their songs are badass , I love it. But I just don't like their vocals. In my opinion, the way they sing is not matching with the song.
I prefer girlsband's choreo, many People don't recognize how difficulty is to do fluid mooves! Strenght powerful moove without fluid movement specially in arms look robotic
In my opinion, I feel that the female groups of JYP have been doing it, including groups like Twice, which have been characterized by their cute dances. They have also incorporated it lately into their choreography, not as notorious as Itzy and Nmixx, but they are doing it.
doing what
NewJeans and LE SSERAFIM are going hard.
Hybe is making their girl dance their butts off.
Well I love Girlgroup Dances. Why do they have to change? Why should they be more ,,masculine,,? I like them the way they are
OP never said that gg choreos have to be changed, but gg must have the freedom to do any kind of choreo
A moment for Key of SHINee who always take gg choreo seriously 👏🏼
Does fat and muscle composition and center of gravity affect the level of difficulty to execute certain techniques in the two sexes?
What I'm talking about here has more to do with habits and muscle memory, they are simply two different dance styles.
In general, of course, for example many breaking ("Breakdance") moves demand upper body strength that is easier for men to accomplish, fast-twitch muscle fiber is more important than in most other dance forms too. You can see that most top bboys (and bgirls for that matter) are rather short, with short legs, which again makes power moves (stuff like flares, windmill) and freezes easier.
Dreamcatcher dances are on par with boy group. They are amazing! And with their live vocals! They crush everything they do.
Many People cover more girlsband choreo moove specially on tiktok like Newjeans, beginner People can't cover boysband choreo moove fast in one minute on tiktok