@@SadToffee Yes what happened was terrible. He and his wife were together and she said he got up to go do something and collapsed right in front of her and that was it.
He represented a true champ. He didn’t go on Twitter and disrespect people. He just did his best and respected the other person for beating him. Actually the whole Tetris scene is like that. I think many competitive gaming communities could learn from the Tetris scene.
love thinking of moves as pieces, it explains why good melee combos are so difficult: where in tetris you’re always told what your next piece is, melee makes you think through every “piece” your character has at once and then pick the one that fits in an instant, several times in a row, if you want a kill. adding this stress on top of the physical execution tests is what makes real creativity in the game so impressive
I think the most unintuitive part is that you don't have to immediately use the next piece as soon as you figure it out Like there are some cases where the next piece is definitely a soft nair, but you can delay it a little so that your opponent is a little closer to the ground which makes the next piece possible to string There's a lot of similar decisionmaking in guildline vs tetris (not NES tetris) and smash melee, because the decision making isn't necessarily in the pieces like one would expect, but in the type of attack you sent. So you can do things like sending doubles and triples to make your opponents board harder to clear, which is similar to finishing with a fair to setup and edgeguard vs up smashing for more damage but a less advantageous stage position
Not only does mang0 knows which move to use next, he know how far, what part of the move he needs and which strong or weak version he needs while still considering the micro stuff. It's crazy
Nice video! As a top classic tetris player (#2 in elo rn) and longtime mang0 fan, it was nice to see. In classic tetris, a lot of the decisionmaking I do comes immediately after the next box updates. I'm not just deciding where the next piece should go, but where my current piece should go to better accomodate all the candidate options I have for the next piece. I suspect that top melee players like mang0 have a similar adjustment game, where reactable information affects not only the potential followups, but also the in-the-moment decisions that will lead to all your followups. I'm pretty bad at melee tho, so idk lol.
Ive been having a character crisis recently, always being a marth main and contemplating if I should switch to falco. I think this is one of the big appeals to me as falco is I feel my combo game is much more fleshed out as falco for this exact reason while I feel I am unable to replicate this as marth to the same degree. I never really articulated this before though, so this was a super helpful video thank you
Wow, you make really really interesting video essays, the things you have said about Melee I have never heard before, you speak from a place of free thinking and genuine knowledge in a way that is extremely engaging. Love your channel!!
3:40 slight correction, tetris players don't look at the next pieces, they rely on peripheral vision and know what piece it is based on colour, for example, if a see purple, blue, cyan, green in my peripheral, I know I will get a T, J, I and S piece in that order
I’m really intrigued with your pointing out of this because it is extremely interesting while also being a very abstract thought that so clearly is a brilliant example of how to look at it. Keep up dope vids :))
I have no idea how but your video has completely changed how I approach melee and fox as well. I didn't ever really lab anything specific to begin with but thinking about the two characters on screen as tetris pieces has jurastically changed my punish game and the amount of time I wait before inputting another move. Thank you so much this video is severely underrated.
As someone who absolutely loves fighting games and especially Tetris, damn this was a good video. Hitting the lab and practicing execution in Tetris is absolutely real.
looks like I found a third High Effort Editing Melee CZcamsr let's fucking gooo (AsumSaus, wusstunes, you! i'm not saying you're a "ripoff" or anything, you're all completely different and completely awesome. proud to be 367th sub)
As a long time player of both Tetris and Smash bros, this was a neat perspective. Solid vid, here's a like + a sub; because surely you'll upload again, right?
This video was great, but it's missing the fact that you have to predict their DI based on habits and the current situation in order to see this future game state! Its a crucial part of Mango's combo game especially, whether to do an utilt, shine, or cross up shine has everything to do with what you predict your opponent's DI to be
ive been playing fighting games for years and melee for 7, you just opened up my mind to why im so bad at most fighting games more than any other "beginner tutorial" ive ever seen
One thing to note is that guideline tetris has bagged rng, so you have to run through all 7 unique pieces before getting a double (ignoring hold) So some players don't even check the queue on every piece, but have played so much tetris they can sort of intuit what pieces are left in the bag. So this can lead to another style of tetris, where you can formulate entire stacking sequences, just because you remember you used the L piece 3 pieces ago Anyways I haven't finished the video but vs tetris goes even further than what you've talked about and I'd 100% be down to talk about intricacies of tetris neutral and advantage states and stuff
Playing chess taught me enough to translate to other games like COD and SF. Look 3 moves ahead, breaking that down to act-react-counter. Bait an attack, evade, then punish. Get em every sometime.
I remember seeing something about this as being why n0ne is so good, he sees the game before it happens in neutrals as well as punish and that's how he executes hard reads and sees when more unorthadox options will work This is kinda just competetive games in general but it's a really good explanation of it
I enjoyed this video. I don't think Tetris is the best vehicle to get the points you were trying to make across though. The good news is that it was someone else's concept-- you just built a video essay around Rabbit's elusive thought process. You could've used basically any game (IRL or video game) or human activity as your basis for comparison. When professional billiards players look at a pool table, they're calculating where they can place the ball after they make a shot. Their goal isn't to sink one shot-- they wanna hit in all of their balls in. The actions of IRL athletes always have an immediate purpose that takes future conditions into account (the pro-level athletes, at least). Whatever. Your point about mang0's keen awareness of how long his opponent's hit stun will last and how his attacks will affect it is crystal clear. Mang0 wants to maneuver his opponent into a situation where he can bust out a kill move. Many top players think that way. When BBB was hitting a bunch of flashy sequences at whatever Summit he went to, I remember Leffen mentioning that there was a big difference between stringing hits together and closing out a set. When plup is playing super well, I think his ability to factor in knockback, hitstun, spacing, and DI is possibly the best in the game. That's just my opinion. I just didn't like Tetris for the comparison because of its simplicity. There are only seven pieces. Either way, dope video. I'm subscribing. Edit: oh dang-- this is your first vid in three years. Keep it up man. Don't leave us hanging that long again please lol
I've always been confused by people labbing combos in any smash game, but I thought there was some super important reason, now I know other ppl just don't think about which move to hit next, even though thats like the most fun part of smash.
The concept of understanding the game not just in terms of mindgames and punish games and neutral and stuff, but generalizing all of those into game state and future game state is really neat; I like it. That said, the way you play tetris and the way you play smash are deeeply different from one another. To begin with, the role rng plays in tetris and the way you have to plan your moves around whatever pieces the game decides to throw at you is not that far from opposite of you having to _choose_ the right move to continue the combo/get the stock. Aaaaannnd that's as far as I can make criticism of the points you illustrated in the video but I can think of a lot more differences between tetris and smash. Tho, when you get to the higher levels of play in modern tetris it resembles more and more a fighting game, but again, one very different from smash.
video is great and your storytelling is on point but ur sfm render settings are really weird in high definition, i would recommend checking out some higher quality export settings. keep making these kinds of videos though!!!
I feel like the analogy would work better if the opponents di is the piece and you need to figure out where to put it, it lines up better with missdrops (dropped combos) lack of tech skill (spins) and just overall stacking knowledge making you better at getting kills (tetrises) consistently. If you question me at all I would like you to know my opinion is objectively correct, source is my channel.
One of the only Smash games I can remember is in Smash 4 where 2 Luigi's are just doing fairs at each other for the first 10 seconds. I don't remember what made it so deep. I haven't played smash competitively since 2016
this is a lovely framework to start developing my punish a little further. How do you think the existence of trajectory DI affects Rabit's decision making? As a beginner, (been a fox main for around a month now) it seems like a whole dimension of complication I cant get my head around that makes setting up for kill moves a little insane to think about.
annoying answer, but you really just gotta play the game a boatload and get a feel for that stuff yourself. maybe analyze some slippi replays or work with a few unclepunch savestates if you really wanna lab a specific situation out.
Just since I know players don't always crossover... There are plenty of times where you need to have this type of knowledge in street fighter and similar fighting games... You don't always get a totally clean grounded hit. There's lots of on the fly adaptation
yeah idk, you could say the same about chess. most games involve strategy to a degree. when you look your hardest for similarities, youll often find some. but lets give a quick shoutout the soviet hero who invented tetris, alexey pajitnov.
good video. very fun watch. however, the lighting on peach is absolutely terrifying. i watched the entire thing but it felt offputting. i like the concept of using your character to display body language in speech a lot, but the lights on peach seem way too intense. i beg you to experiment with lighting on the renders you do in your next video. aside from that i really liked all the edits though. the scribbly drawn text is really pleasing. keep up with the content grind though, this vid fucks.
RIP Jonas, the guy in the tetris clip. An absolute legend of tetris, and a wonderful guy as well.
i first became aware of the competitive scene when he had won his third in a row or something like that, RIP
@@adust9996 yep, the clip you used was kinda him handing down the mantle to the young, cracked kids who are innovating the game.
Jonas died? Fuckkk dude.
@@SadToffee Yes what happened was terrible. He and his wife were together and she said he got up to go do something and collapsed right in front of her and that was it.
He represented a true champ. He didn’t go on Twitter and disrespect people. He just did his best and respected the other person for beating him. Actually the whole Tetris scene is like that.
I think many competitive gaming communities could learn from the Tetris scene.
love thinking of moves as pieces, it explains why good melee combos are so difficult: where in tetris you’re always told what your next piece is, melee makes you think through every “piece” your character has at once and then pick the one that fits in an instant, several times in a row, if you want a kill.
adding this stress on top of the physical execution tests is what makes real creativity in the game so impressive
I think the most unintuitive part is that you don't have to immediately use the next piece as soon as you figure it out
Like there are some cases where the next piece is definitely a soft nair, but you can delay it a little so that your opponent is a little closer to the ground which makes the next piece possible to string
There's a lot of similar decisionmaking in guildline vs tetris (not NES tetris) and smash melee, because the decision making isn't necessarily in the pieces like one would expect, but in the type of attack you sent.
So you can do things like sending doubles and triples to make your opponents board harder to clear, which is similar to finishing with a fair to setup and edgeguard vs up smashing for more damage but a less advantageous stage position
I get emotional everytime I see Jonas.. just absolute amazing man.
Seeing what mang0's actually doing frame by frame and why it's so insane is a beautiful thing to watch. Great video!
Not only does mang0 knows which move to use next, he know how far, what part of the move he needs and which strong or weak version he needs while still considering the micro stuff. It's crazy
Dats not really mango tbh he’s more free flowing that’s more of an armada thing
@@vegaplus420 well I'm saying he knows it more intuitively. Mang0 knows his shit in his own way. That's why it works.
Nice video! As a top classic tetris player (#2 in elo rn) and longtime mang0 fan, it was nice to see. In classic tetris, a lot of the decisionmaking I do comes immediately after the next box updates. I'm not just deciding where the next piece should go, but where my current piece should go to better accomodate all the candidate options I have for the next piece. I suspect that top melee players like mang0 have a similar adjustment game, where reactable information affects not only the potential followups, but also the in-the-moment decisions that will lead to all your followups. I'm pretty bad at melee tho, so idk lol.
i fucking knew you'd be on here
Ive been having a character crisis recently, always being a marth main and contemplating if I should switch to falco. I think this is one of the big appeals to me as falco is I feel my combo game is much more fleshed out as falco for this exact reason while I feel I am unable to replicate this as marth to the same degree. I never really articulated this before though, so this was a super helpful video thank you
Wow, you make really really interesting video essays, the things you have said about Melee I have never heard before, you speak from a place of free thinking and genuine knowledge in a way that is extremely engaging. Love your channel!!
Absolutely loved this video!! great concept and execution. will definitely be waiting for future videos 🙏🏽
Fascinating concept, excellent execution. Great video. Earned a sub.
3:40 slight correction, tetris players don't look at the next pieces, they rely on peripheral vision and know what piece it is based on colour, for example, if a see purple, blue, cyan, green in my peripheral, I know I will get a T, J, I and S piece in that order
I’m really intrigued with your pointing out of this because it is extremely interesting while also being a very abstract thought that so clearly is a brilliant example of how to look at it. Keep up dope vids :))
Nujabes background music at 2:45 was awesome absolutely loved it
Genuinely great video that expresses something in concise words that I've been trying to figure out myself for a long time.
Your videos r really good pls keep em coming this will go far, i think.
Loved the incredible video and the analysis! Cool stuff!
Man that breakdown at the end was beautiful. Good vid
I have no idea how but your video has completely changed how I approach melee and fox as well. I didn't ever really lab anything specific to begin with but thinking about the two characters on screen as tetris pieces has jurastically changed my punish game and the amount of time I wait before inputting another move. Thank you so much this video is severely underrated.
Did not expect a rabbit shoutout in this video that popped up on my recommended, also hi from AL
Amazing video love seeing the perspective of how people see games.
I'm Subscriber #200!!! Congratulations on your milestone, this is a great video!
Lol one of my favorite CZcams videos ever is qtcinderella getting coaching from you randomly. I'm so glad I stumbled on you too years later
As someone who absolutely loves fighting games and especially Tetris, damn this was a good video. Hitting the lab and practicing execution in Tetris is absolutely real.
Sick video, instant sub, keep this up and your channel will explode
looks like I found a third High Effort Editing Melee CZcamsr let's fucking gooo
(AsumSaus, wusstunes, you! i'm not saying you're a "ripoff" or anything, you're all completely different and completely awesome. proud to be 367th sub)
man so the melee like jazz comparison is much more apt than anyone thought
Good analogy, really makes you appreciate melee and how unique it is.
This was a useful mindset adjuster for me. Thanks!
Amazing video
Akh what’s up it’s Lupe lmao the algorithm has brought together again 😭 haha
@@user-uo9yb2qx8z ayoooo
John Numbers the Wii fit trainer legend from NYC in Smash 4 and Ultimate also plays Tetris, known for playing it in between sets at locals
I’m gonna become a Tetris player now
playing tetris for like 4 years made me deduce what you're gonna say on the video before watching it, great video
love the blender stuff, would be a lot natural looking if u gave bigger expressions to peach
finally i can understand my fav part of smash, ACTUALLY creating combos on the spot while adapting, its the best. fuck it im downloading tetris
thanks for sharing this perspective
As a long time player of both Tetris and Smash bros, this was a neat perspective. Solid vid, here's a like + a sub; because surely you'll upload again, right?
I thought I was weird for seeing the game in this way, I can never explain what I'm doing very easily.
Great video!
Imagine my surprise hearing Louisiana mentioned and then rabit, ran a close set samus yoshi with him at nexus that was a good time. Love the video 👍
Great vid!
This video was great, but it's missing the fact that you have to predict their DI based on habits and the current situation in order to see this future game state! Its a crucial part of Mango's combo game especially, whether to do an utilt, shine, or cross up shine has everything to do with what you predict your opponent's DI to be
Good advice, I’m glad to have met Rabit at Genesis earlier this year, dude is sick nasty with literally every character
This makes 3 times I've had people connect tetris & melee, so I think you might be onto something here!
There's a surprising overlap
Great video!!
really good vid!
This explains why I am so good at panel de pon/tetris attack only after playing ultimate and pdp/ta at the same time frame
ive been playing fighting games for years and melee for 7, you just opened up my mind to why im so bad at most fighting games more than any other "beginner tutorial" ive ever seen
This was excellent
As a former X rank in Tetrio and average 1-2 attendant at my locals, love to hear this haha. Scratching both of my itches in one vid
great vid :3
awesome video!
One thing to note is that guideline tetris has bagged rng, so you have to run through all 7 unique pieces before getting a double (ignoring hold)
So some players don't even check the queue on every piece, but have played so much tetris they can sort of intuit what pieces are left in the bag.
So this can lead to another style of tetris, where you can formulate entire stacking sequences, just because you remember you used the L piece 3 pieces ago
Anyways I haven't finished the video but vs tetris goes even further than what you've talked about and I'd 100% be down to talk about intricacies of tetris neutral and advantage states and stuff
Very sick video, nice voice over
5:12 this is also how melee is jazz
Ive always felt while playing melee that I wasn't doing combos, but that the combos were doing me 😅
i see what you were trying to do but if you take out the huge pictures of peach this video would be god tier. still good video
great vid bestie
Banger vid
Great vid algorithm algorithm algorithm
definitely not an idiot, good analysis and commentary for sure
Halfway through, realized this video is much more interested in informing the melee beginner. My bad
Top Peach Player Llod has a video talking about how to improve where this is one of the chapters
really cool video
Playing chess taught me enough to translate to other games like COD and SF. Look 3 moves ahead, breaking that down to act-react-counter. Bait an attack, evade, then punish. Get em every sometime.
I remember seeing something about this as being why n0ne is so good, he sees the game before it happens in neutrals as well as punish and that's how he executes hard reads and sees when more unorthadox options will work
This is kinda just competetive games in general but it's a really good explanation of it
Nujabes 🔥🔥🔥
I enjoyed this video. I don't think Tetris is the best vehicle to get the points you were trying to make across though. The good news is that it was someone else's concept-- you just built a video essay around Rabbit's elusive thought process. You could've used basically any game (IRL or video game) or human activity as your basis for comparison. When professional billiards players look at a pool table, they're calculating where they can place the ball after they make a shot. Their goal isn't to sink one shot-- they wanna hit in all of their balls in. The actions of IRL athletes always have an immediate purpose that takes future conditions into account (the pro-level athletes, at least). Whatever. Your point about mang0's keen awareness of how long his opponent's hit stun will last and how his attacks will affect it is crystal clear. Mang0 wants to maneuver his opponent into a situation where he can bust out a kill move. Many top players think that way. When BBB was hitting a bunch of flashy sequences at whatever Summit he went to, I remember Leffen mentioning that there was a big difference between stringing hits together and closing out a set. When plup is playing super well, I think his ability to factor in knockback, hitstun, spacing, and DI is possibly the best in the game. That's just my opinion. I just didn't like Tetris for the comparison because of its simplicity. There are only seven pieces. Either way, dope video. I'm subscribing.
Edit: oh dang-- this is your first vid in three years. Keep it up man. Don't leave us hanging that long again please lol
were not gonna breesze past the nujabes that was playing
Tspins often give more than a 4clear but great video nonetheless!!
The funny thing is you can apply all this to high level Yugioh gameplay too
gonna go zero-to-death some rows in tetris now
I've always been confused by people labbing combos in any smash game, but I thought there was some super important reason, now I know other ppl just don't think about which move to hit next, even though thats like the most fun part of smash.
I love your peach avatar.
I just like Peach tbh 🥰
I respect the content grind. And while I think that the comparison to Tetris is valid, I'm not really sure what was added by comparing melee to tetris
The concept of understanding the game not just in terms of mindgames and punish games and neutral and stuff, but generalizing all of those into game state and future game state is really neat; I like it.
That said, the way you play tetris and the way you play smash are deeeply different from one another. To begin with, the role rng plays in tetris and the way you have to plan your moves around whatever pieces the game decides to throw at you is not that far from opposite of you having to _choose_ the right move to continue the combo/get the stock. Aaaaannnd that's as far as I can make criticism of the points you illustrated in the video but I can think of a lot more differences between tetris and smash.
Tho, when you get to the higher levels of play in modern tetris it resembles more and more a fighting game, but again, one very different from smash.
BOOM tetris for jeff
Its an interesting topic, did rabit give any advice on how to better see the game this way?
RIP Jonas!!!
video is great and your storytelling is on point but ur sfm render settings are really weird in high definition, i would recommend checking out some higher quality export settings. keep making these kinds of videos though!!!
Based this video is so me-core
I feel like the analogy would work better if the opponents di is the piece and you need to figure out where to put it, it lines up better with missdrops (dropped combos) lack of tech skill (spins) and just overall stacking knowledge making you better at getting kills (tetrises) consistently. If you question me at all I would like you to know my opinion is objectively correct, source is my channel.
as someone who got 15th in CTWC 2021, melee is still so fricking hard bruh😭
Ayo pls keep uploading this is good shit
One of the only Smash games I can remember is in Smash 4 where 2 Luigi's are just doing fairs at each other for the first 10 seconds. I don't remember what made it so deep. I haven't played smash competitively since 2016
Real cross over goat
banger
Cool vid
The Peach graphic was well-used and the video was well-edited and very informative. Thank you for the upload!
wow peach has such a masculine voice
Melee is beautiful
this is a lovely framework to start developing my punish a little further. How do you think the existence of trajectory DI affects Rabit's decision making? As a beginner, (been a fox main for around a month now) it seems like a whole dimension of complication I cant get my head around that makes setting up for kill moves a little insane to think about.
annoying answer, but you really just gotta play the game a boatload and get a feel for that stuff yourself. maybe analyze some slippi replays or work with a few unclepunch savestates if you really wanna lab a specific situation out.
nice vid
i like that you are Peach
Just since I know players don't always crossover... There are plenty of times where you need to have this type of knowledge in street fighter and similar fighting games... You don't always get a totally clean grounded hit. There's lots of on the fly adaptation
yeah idk, you could say the same about chess. most games involve strategy to a degree. when you look your hardest for similarities, youll often find some.
but lets give a quick shoutout the soviet hero who invented tetris, alexey pajitnov.
good video. very fun watch. however, the lighting on peach is absolutely terrifying. i watched the entire thing but it felt offputting. i like the concept of using your character to display body language in speech a lot, but the lights on peach seem way too intense. i beg you to experiment with lighting on the renders you do in your next video. aside from that i really liked all the edits though. the scribbly drawn text is really pleasing.
keep up with the content grind though, this vid fucks.
In the fgc we call this Yomi.
It effects neutral/hit confirms, conversions and scramble situations
Answer: the Evo logo (?
This is how I play too but I’m bad. Maybe I should switch to full time tetris
tetris combo
"we both hit the lab, practice combos"
proceeds to show a clip of marth practicing chaingrabs on FD....