Sup gamers, I know the editing is a little more sparse on this one, but I saw Coney's vid and I just wanted to get it out ASAP, back to the regularly scheduled quality for the next one!
Stumbled upon your video on my algorithm. Very well done and structured video talking about Melee. Loved that you used the Wizzy Dreamland comparison. Stuff like this adds to the longevity of Melee because there will be players that "own" a stage. Like M2K vs spacies on FD. Keep it up!
loved your video with facecam this time! Im also grateful to have this amount of diversity in melee, and it can also slightly vary depending on regions too. Some regions still run unfrozen stadium or make it a counterpick different than FD or small variations like these, but in ultimate the stage list still feels stale even though they have a higher volume of choice they can pick (we all know at this point that most players will pick ps2... or something similar to ps2 lol.) I'll still love ultimate despite its state, because I have been an ultimate player since its release and then switched to melee through slippi.
Very cool vid. Kinda unrelated but if you flipped the markers on your whiteboard the other way around they will write much better. (The ink settles with gravity)
As someone who just started playing melee about 1.5 years ago and used to play Ult I agree with your video. I love playing and watching melee and I really do like ultimate as well and will play any chance I get. What you said about every competitive match of ultimate feeling the same really hit. I think it’s in more ways than just stages though.
Excellent video, I watched Coney's video a week ago or so and was itching for a response that discusses Melee *just* in the manner you managed to. Subscribed!
Love the respect for ultimate even if it’s not for you personally. As an ult player trying to get into melee, it sucks to see the scenes so divided, like you have to pick a side or something lol
I still remember the dark days of competitive smash 4 where only Smashville and town&city (two stages from animal crossing that looked and played similar to each other with only the amount of platforms being the only difference) and i just got burnt out of watching smash 4 tourneys because of it. And while smash ultimate is better than 4 when it comes to legal stages,its still 3 stages compared to melee's diverse 6 I love watching ultimate i really do,but melee tourneys remain king when it comes to hype sets
I can’t remember if Coney mentioned it in his video or not, but another negative thing ab Ult players always going PS2 is that the stage buffs characters with less interesting play styles, particularly Steve and Sonic, bc it gives them lots of space to deal with. It’s like if Puff got to play every game on Dreamland, or if Marth got to play ever game on FD.
3:20 . Hello fellow Falcon main, FoD enjoyers. I know you’re out there. May your T-Drops be as pure as water, and your dreams like that of champions. Good luck soldiers 🫡
As much i love both ultimate and melee as a spectator, people bored watching ultimate with not much stage diversity is like me bored watching melee with not much (tournament viable) character diversity. Though your argument in this video is valid. The "Narrative drives hype" statement is also true and not many people realized this.
I don't understand how you could feel like this. In the past Yoshi, pikachu, fox, falco, sheik, marth, capitan falcon, peach, puff and IC's have all won super majors. ANd these characters have complete diversity in how they play, none even play similar. Plus, samus is next up (praise swoop and morse)
I am a slippi baby falcon main (3 years in) I do not mind fod at all but that might be because a majority of me learning stages was on unranked random and I gave very little thought. If you came up at locals player bracket you would be much more aware of counterpicks.
Yeah I’ve tried to watch smash ultimate sets so many times, but there just doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of weight to what’s going on, usually seems like things can change at any time. I’ve been playing since the first one came out, but perhaps ironically the Games I’ve played by far the most are the last two smash games. I’m talking out of all games I’ve ever played. So they’re fun to play but not as much fun to watch as Melee.
The spectator experience for ultimate is not nearly as good as melee, but the player experience in bracket of ult is comparable if not better than melee, due to the number of interactions that happen per match. Ult is moving towards prioritizing player experience, which I believe to be more beneficial for the serious community. Many of the twitch chat complainers don’t even go to events
So I love melee, and am an Ultimate player. But in a nutshell the main reason Ultimate is failing. Community has little substance also. Example, Leffen brought it up but at submit people didn't want to play much to practice and when they did they'd go their sandbaggy characters. The difference between melee and Ultimate that I seen growing up- (including early Brawl). Been around since 2011 Is Melee players WANT TO EVOLVE the game...hence 20XX became a meme and goal Ultimate players, WANT GLORY...literally. They want to be a top player for the sake of being one, they want to win and take shortcuts to do it. Hence the Steves, hence why when MKLeo and Samsora were winning with Ike and Peach in 2019 early. Notice the Ike players stayed (Ike is easy), but the Peach players didn't... The work ethic, and decision making they do also is bad. It's why the games meta isn't making milestones. The stage list is a HUGE! HUGE! part of it, but also player evolution is part of it also- because rather Coney admits it or not- the character are annoying. G&W ISN'T that good...players are just not good at fighting them . And don't try to study hard enough to figure it out. Thanks for this video I may need to drop some Ultimate content in hopes the community can rise back. EDIT: let me clarify I know there are players like Light, Gimr, Muteace who're evolving their characters + game and such just saying on average
Melee is still around cause it’s not brawl 3, ult will sadly die the moment there’s legitimate talk about a smash 6, just like all the past games, they all share the same issue, they’re not competitively oriented, hitstun is still too low, defensive options are still over powered and the physics don’t carry weight properly. If you want to know why new smash games die and melee survives there’s a simple test: pick captain falcon in melee and do a dash then jump, see how nice that feels? Now go play any other smash game and do the exact same thing. Not quite as satisfying right? That is the whole reason melee is still around, it flows, the new games are awkward and stilted and do everything in their power to keep you from doing cool-fun shit
I think ultimate might stick around even if there's a smash 6, as Sakurai stated they'll probably not going to be able to match ultimate in terms of content, and Sakurai is most likely retired from making smash, meaning that 1: ultimate and 6 are going to have different character rosters and stages most likely, thus players of ultimate might stick around for the characters ultimate still has, and 2: the feel of smash 6 might be different if it's handled by a new dev and not Sakurai, which once again, may lead some people to stick to ultimate.
Why aren't Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams or Dreamland in the stage list for Ultimate? Edit: I watched that last minute of the video and was reminded of Warioware existing. Haven't played or watched competitive PM/P+ in a hot minute, so I have forgotten their viable stage list. So what happened to Warioware, Lylat Cruiser, etc. in Ultimate? Is it just too many stages? I was actually never aware of this.
“Falcon players cringe at fountain of dreams” Not no more I don’t 🥴🥴 After 15+ years, you get gud at it But I don’t think there will ever be a feeling like watching a tournament with m2k and another god and it going to fd
I think im technically an "esports era" kid, doc is like 2014 and i really started in late 2015 iirc, but idk maybe thats close enough to say im a doc kid
I honestly feel like its virtually impossible to enjoy Ultimate if youre a true Melee player. The Melee meta is so intense and Ultimate is aimed at casuals. The speed, the Tempo, everything is different. On the flip side Melee is a sucky casual game and feels clunky to anyone just picking it up. It was almost made with hardcore in mind.
Ultimate gets boring cuz the skill gap is so closed, and harder characters/playstyles dont bring in easy results as the "easy to execute" characters/playstyles. You can hardly adapt to some matchups
What would u prefer to see instead? I think scripted content flows better and I wanted the vid out asap since it was based on Coney’s video, so there was not a ton of time to edit. Thanks for watching!
Sup gamers, I know the editing is a little more sparse on this one, but I saw Coney's vid and I just wanted to get it out ASAP, back to the regularly scheduled quality for the next one!
Any thoughts on P+?
Before Coney hit the “controversial” button… I was expecting him to hit the “melee” button. 😂
Stumbled upon your video on my algorithm. Very well done and structured video talking about Melee. Loved that you used the Wizzy Dreamland comparison. Stuff like this adds to the longevity of Melee because there will be players that "own" a stage. Like M2K vs spacies on FD. Keep it up!
I regularly play and watch both games and I think this video is 100% correct
loved your video with facecam this time! Im also grateful to have this amount of diversity in melee, and it can also slightly vary depending on regions too. Some regions still run unfrozen stadium or make it a counterpick different than FD or small variations like these, but in ultimate the stage list still feels stale even though they have a higher volume of choice they can pick (we all know at this point that most players will pick ps2... or something similar to ps2 lol.) I'll still love ultimate despite its state, because I have been an ultimate player since its release and then switched to melee through slippi.
Very cool vid. Kinda unrelated but if you flipped the markers on your whiteboard the other way around they will write much better. (The ink settles with gravity)
Lmao funniest reply iv ever gotten, ty for the suggestion.
@adust9996 now I have to see the next video to find out if they got flipped
As someone who just started playing melee about 1.5 years ago and used to play Ult I agree with your video. I love playing and watching melee and I really do like ultimate as well and will play any chance I get. What you said about every competitive match of ultimate feeling the same really hit. I think it’s in more ways than just stages though.
Yeah but fuck Ultimate
It's also worth noting that stages matter more in Smash than any regular fighting game by default, making it stick out more when they matter less.
This was a good video a thing i think coney failed to mention is how interesting gimps are and how they keep games from always going long.
Excellent video, I watched Coney's video a week ago or so and was itching for a response that discusses Melee *just* in the manner you managed to. Subscribed!
Great video bud,i started playing melee like 5 months ago and im training to raise mario on the tier list,he is top 11 and im going to prove it
As a melee dude who tried his best on ultimate for two years I gotta say that I'm glad I wasn't the only onee thinking of warioware
This is why P+ is above all. Stage variety, true character diversity, and more mechanics that make ditto match ups look fun.
Wonderfully put together video. Thanks!
Love the respect for ultimate even if it’s not for you personally. As an ult player trying to get into melee, it sucks to see the scenes so divided, like you have to pick a side or something lol
CZcams algorithm. Listen to me. THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO SEE. REWARD THIS.
Great vid! Really enjoyed the discussion :)
Solid prospective dawg!
game 4 kola on warioware sounds terrifying
9th year playing, instant sub… GIVE ME KNOWLEDGE
just reached the end, such a good vid. i always felt this playing ult, like juice world said all stages are the same 😢
@@zacharysteele yo juice wrld said that? That's crazy
EDIT: Oh wait you mean when he said all girls are the same didn't you XD
@@FlamingZelda3 LMAO
Really well put!
Yoo, let's go Adust
I still remember the dark days of competitive smash 4 where only Smashville and town&city (two stages from animal crossing that looked and played similar to each other with only the amount of platforms being the only difference) and i just got burnt out of watching smash 4 tourneys because of it. And while smash ultimate is better than 4 when it comes to legal stages,its still 3 stages compared to melee's diverse 6
I love watching ultimate i really do,but melee tourneys remain king when it comes to hype sets
I would love to see even more stages in melee.
sun tzu art of war i see you
You would not believe, I had to buy it for my sports law class lmao, prof thought it was integral to the art of contract negotation.
Great vid. Melee is the best game
Top tier content
another banger from adust the GOAT
Masterpiece, editing or otherwise
Main difference between melee and ultimate is melee will live forever
I can’t remember if Coney mentioned it in his video or not, but another negative thing ab Ult players always going PS2 is that the stage buffs characters with less interesting play styles, particularly Steve and Sonic, bc it gives them lots of space to deal with. It’s like if Puff got to play every game on Dreamland, or if Marth got to play ever game on FD.
FELLAS
3:20 . Hello fellow Falcon main, FoD enjoyers. I know you’re out there. May your T-Drops be as pure as water, and your dreams like that of champions. Good luck soldiers 🫡
Great video
Great video.
As much i love both ultimate and melee as a spectator, people bored watching ultimate with not much stage diversity is like me bored watching melee with not much (tournament viable) character diversity.
Though your argument in this video is valid. The "Narrative drives hype" statement is also true and not many people realized this.
I don't understand how you could feel like this. In the past Yoshi, pikachu, fox, falco, sheik, marth, capitan falcon, peach, puff and IC's have all won super majors. ANd these characters have complete diversity in how they play, none even play similar. Plus, samus is next up (praise swoop and morse)
I am a slippi baby falcon main (3 years in) I do not mind fod at all but that might be because a majority of me learning stages was on unranked random and I gave very little thought. If you came up at locals player bracket you would be much more aware of counterpicks.
Yeah I’ve tried to watch smash ultimate sets so many times, but there just doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of weight to what’s going on, usually seems like things can change at any time. I’ve been playing since the first one came out, but perhaps ironically the Games I’ve played by far the most are the last two smash games. I’m talking out of all games I’ve ever played. So they’re fun to play but not as much fun to watch as Melee.
Inky mentioned 🔥🔥🔥
The spectator experience for ultimate is not nearly as good as melee, but the player experience in bracket of ult is comparable if not better than melee, due to the number of interactions that happen per match. Ult is moving towards prioritizing player experience, which I believe to be more beneficial for the serious community. Many of the twitch chat complainers don’t even go to events
Just a note try to look at the camera more when you have your camera on.
king
As a Falco player I actually like dreamland the most more than yoshis
So I love melee, and am an Ultimate player. But in a nutshell the main reason Ultimate is failing.
Community has little substance also. Example, Leffen brought it up but at submit people didn't want to play much to practice and when they did they'd go their sandbaggy characters.
The difference between melee and Ultimate that I seen growing up- (including early Brawl). Been around since 2011
Is Melee players WANT TO EVOLVE the game...hence 20XX became a meme and goal
Ultimate players, WANT GLORY...literally.
They want to be a top player for the sake of being one, they want to win and take shortcuts to do it. Hence the Steves, hence why when MKLeo and Samsora were winning with Ike and Peach in 2019 early. Notice the Ike players stayed (Ike is easy), but the Peach players didn't... The work ethic, and decision making they do also is bad. It's why the games meta isn't making milestones.
The stage list is a HUGE! HUGE! part of it, but also player evolution is part of it also- because rather Coney admits it or not- the character are annoying. G&W ISN'T that good...players are just not good at fighting them . And don't try to study hard enough to figure it out. Thanks for this video I may need to drop some Ultimate content in hopes the community can rise back.
EDIT: let me clarify I know there are players like Light, Gimr, Muteace who're evolving their characters + game and such just saying on average
Melee is still around cause it’s not brawl 3, ult will sadly die the moment there’s legitimate talk about a smash 6, just like all the past games, they all share the same issue, they’re not competitively oriented, hitstun is still too low, defensive options are still over powered and the physics don’t carry weight properly. If you want to know why new smash games die and melee survives there’s a simple test: pick captain falcon in melee and do a dash then jump, see how nice that feels? Now go play any other smash game and do the exact same thing. Not quite as satisfying right? That is the whole reason melee is still around, it flows, the new games are awkward and stilted and do everything in their power to keep you from doing cool-fun shit
I think ultimate might stick around even if there's a smash 6, as Sakurai stated they'll probably not going to be able to match ultimate in terms of content, and Sakurai is most likely retired from making smash, meaning that 1: ultimate and 6 are going to have different character rosters and stages most likely, thus players of ultimate might stick around for the characters ultimate still has, and 2: the feel of smash 6 might be different if it's handled by a new dev and not Sakurai, which once again, may lead some people to stick to ultimate.
Fax
I totally agree. Somehow I think even smash64 is more enjoyable to watch than the newer games.
Why aren't Yoshi's Island, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams or Dreamland in the stage list for Ultimate?
Edit: I watched that last minute of the video and was reminded of Warioware existing. Haven't played or watched competitive PM/P+ in a hot minute, so I have forgotten their viable stage list. So what happened to Warioware, Lylat Cruiser, etc. in Ultimate? Is it just too many stages?
I was actually never aware of this.
I play Marth and Falco and think FD should be banned. It ruins almost every matchup in the game.
awesome video
Thanks!
Good bideo
WARIO WARE BELIEVERS RISE UP
miss your vr peachtuber
Wanted to get this vid out asap, high quality stuff will be back for the next one i promise
“Falcon players cringe at fountain of dreams”
Not no more I don’t 🥴🥴
After 15+ years, you get gud at it
But I don’t think there will ever be a feeling like watching a tournament with m2k and another god and it going to fd
Still the greatest game of all time.
play lethal company with me and hibou
also yeah i started off as an ult player and moved to rivals and im leagues more interested in watching melee than ult
MOVE THE SCRIPT TO THE TOP HALF OF UR SCREEN!!!!
Legalize warioware
Hi adust I clicked instantly
Lol ultimate players have 100 maps but only use battlefield and ps layout in tournament honestly cant say anything abt melees stage list
Are you a doc kid?
I think im technically an "esports era" kid, doc is like 2014 and i really started in late 2015 iirc, but idk maybe thats close enough to say im a doc kid
@@adust9996 The only thing I'm interested in knowing is if you got into melee because of the smash documentary
Oh no I saw apex 2015 on twitch randomly and then decided to start playing. I saw the smash doc shortly after though
I honestly feel like its virtually impossible to enjoy Ultimate if youre a true Melee player. The Melee meta is so intense and Ultimate is aimed at casuals. The speed, the Tempo, everything is different. On the flip side Melee is a sucky casual game and feels clunky to anyone just picking it up. It was almost made with hardcore in mind.
Ultimate gets boring cuz the skill gap is so closed, and harder characters/playstyles dont bring in easy results as the "easy to execute" characters/playstyles. You can hardly adapt to some matchups
If Coney is who Ultimate players are looking up to, then yea its over for Ultimate.
id rather go 0-2 against a fox/falcon moving at the speed of light TAS level than snooze in Ultimate. its just so boring.
There’s no point in a face cam if half the time ur just staring at a script while speaking
What would u prefer to see instead? I think scripted content flows better and I wanted the vid out asap since it was based on Coney’s video, so there was not a ton of time to edit. Thanks for watching!