Cloud-Cruising Cross Country Flight. 4hrs VFR Over the Top.
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- čas přidán 4. 01. 2021
- VFR over the top? That's when a pilot flies visually over the top of clouds. It's legal in the U.S.A, but is it a good idea? What if there's too many clouds to get back down? What if you have engine trouble over the top? Like many things, I think if you manage risks and leave a number of options... it can be a nice option for flights like this.
This is my return flight from shooting Gymkhana 11 in my 1976 Grumman Tiger. Flying from Annapolis, MD to Michigan to get home. A big front stood between me and home, and instead of getting bumped around below the clouds at 2,500ft, I smoothly cruise the entire way home above them.
Always make sure you have some out's planned - for everything... not just cloud cruising.
Thanks to the 2 gentleman that offered to help me at Toledo Executive when the pump wouldn't work. I mis-spoke as I didn't end up giving them cash for fuel, but they offered it from their neat cart. The pump ended up working before we could make the deal.
Flying over clouds is one of my favorite things to do. I feel like an angel surfing the clouds! Im VFR only. Love it but do recognize the risk.
Superb video about this subject. I did this last summer... 6 hours on top for me (Private Pilot, VFR). My weather report listed "Broken". When one is on top of a FEW layers of broken, it is solid. Felt like a dumbass. The flying conditions were excellent with a tailwind and I had tons of fuel, but... dumb as hell. Never again.
Thanks. Yea, there's a ton of factors to consider to try and do it safely. Definite pucker factor at times.
An engine out would be a death sentence. Minimize risk.vfr
on top of very small areas only....for those of you wondering if this is safe. It is not. Great video though.
CFI opinion. ( get an ifr rating and practice, practice,practice)
how is it less safe than a standard IFR flight?
Great video, thanks for sharing
Planning is the key and it appears you had that well covered. Nicely done!
Thanks. No shortage of information for sure
Another good one man! I'm loving these.
Thanks dude. I'll come out your way and we can give it a rip.
@@thecommercialpilot Oh now we're talking! Come fly the coast in the summer!
Thanks Matt :-)
I really enjoyed learning about your experience flying on top. In my country, Norway, the CAA has allowed ultra light aircrafts to proceed vfr-on-top, with just minimal equipment, and training required. I mean, its great fun to stay on top at max 4/8 coverage. Its a gamechanger when suddenly clouds are 6/8 and running on fumes....
So, I think its going to be very intersting how this will proceed in he future. If you dont mind, I will use this video as a great instructional tool for my students to see and learn what to expect up there on top. Tnx Matt..
I enjoyed that, good adventure.
Thanks! I love adventures.
Good flight and good weather observations without incidence.
Thanks!
Quality content, I'm on my path to get my PPL, so this is great information to have!
Good luck! Don’t recommend VFR over the top right after you finish your ppl!
Came here through your IG. Big fan of your work and this is no different. I think your USB rants could be a video series as well 😂 well done! Looking forward to the next one
Hahah thanks!
I was really relieved to see the ground! I've always been worried to get vfr on top of solid. If I can't see the ground I get nervous lol
Me too!
Well thought trough, good decision and always have a plan b and c. Do not hesitate to get help if you needed it. Navigation can be tricky, do not forget about ipad back up or loss of gps. Propper preflight prevents p poor performance! Nice video
Interesting CZcams is listening to me. This was a hot topic of discussion with me yesterday. I was flying to sun n fun and had the choice to go on top, but headed back to the airport. It was a solid layer with most airports marginal or IFR. I have never flew VFR on top. I was concerned I would never find a hole. Great video.
I hope you waited it out and still got to make it to SnF!
Just finding this video now. I love going VFR Over the Top but as a VFR only pilot still (almost there with the IFR) my rule is I don't pass one hole unless I've got another hole in sight. Takes the pucker factor out of "Will I get stuck on top".
That's a good idea. High stress ontop is no fun.
Great video. It's all about setting your personal minimums. Frequently reminding yourself of that will keep you out of trouble. Other than that keep learning.
I’ve been using a point system. Too many points and no fly. Things like marginal conditions alone doesn’t bother me much. So 2 points. But combo that with night (2 points) and below freezing temps (1 point) and I’m at 5. Try not to fly around 5 points.
Great video. Love your story and the detail into your thought process for the return flight. Man, crazy your plane chugs so much fuel at fast cruise. 5gph for me in my Rotax would be maxed out :) If/When I build another plane I'd love to do a turbo Rotax 914 or 915. Sling aircraft look cool. Also, you didn't rate your last landing, looked solid. Love the scarf too.
Yea down low it does for sure. If WOT at 3k or below it's usually 13-14GPH. I also have a 62 pitch climb prop so I'm sort of in high gear. Hoping to re-pitch to full cruise since I don't operate from short fields really. Same RPM at 9K+ and it's about 10GPH for same airspeed. Ha, thanks! Pretty much scarves all day when aviating.
No criticism and I enjoyed the video. Each pilot has to review and make their own decisions. I enjoy watching you go vfr over the top for 4 hrs…but I would not do it 😂. I am just not comfortable in that situation if something did go wrong. I know the instruments well enough that I believe I could descend through the clouds, but I wouldn’t want to do it in real life.
Great video. I’m recommending it to my VFR only friends - very realistic situation and your explanations of why you made the decisions you did were very clear. Risk tolerance is an individual decision. it’s good to see someone else’s choices. Suggestion: when you talk about extended VFR on top, you might want to mention what the ceilings below were. i’ve done a bit of VFR on top if ceilings below the deck were basically above VFR minimums but not if it’s 200 and 1/2 down there.
PS: an instrument rating is the best stress reducer you can have on a flight like this. i’m guessing you got your instrument ticket by now.
Thanks. Yea, have my IFR rating now. Didn't last year when I shot this. Good point on the ceilings below. Big difference between 2k marginal and 200 lifr.
Dang this hits close to home, literally. I fly out of 08C. Awesome to see some local faces on YT here
Nice! Did a bunch of landings at 08C during my PPL training. Debated basing my plane there too.
Very awesome- this guy is my hangar neighbor! lol
Ha. Wait. I’m your neighbor? Nice to meet you neighbor.
@@thecommercialpilot yeah we have talked- it was cool watching your video because i didn't put 2 and 2 together until i saw you were flying to Michigan, and then i fast forwarded to see if you were going to Sparta! Nice work- love the video. We have 80841 the Orange and white Cessna .
@@cornholeamerica2434 Awesome. Nice to meet you again!
"You run the risk of flipping over and dying, which would be less than ideal." Love it.
Not ideal at all.
I did an entire trip from ohio to Charleston South Carolina on top vfr a couple summers ago. Caught a great tailwind and it went perfect. If you plan well it can be done safely. I also used atc quite a bit for updates on cloud coverage in route.
Nice that ATC was able to provide coverage info!
Good real world flight planning
worked out great
Engine failure is very low % of accidents.
good luck with Searey
Thank you!
Hi from Lancaster. I did my PPL in KLNS.
I'm a VFR only pilot and do this from time to time. It's perfectly safe if you have multiple alternate plans and you brief your contingencies in every phase of flight. While I'm on top I always like to periodically brief my engine out emergency decent. 1. Notify ATC asap, declare that emergency. 2. If possible, request a vector to the nearest airport and get on it prior to going IMC, this will help mitigate SD. 3. If possible, don't make any turns while in IMC, and trust the instruments! Once you can see the ground, it's really no different than any other emergency procedure.
Used to do VFR on top way back, but had the option to go IFR on descent if needed 😅
Cool flight. Its prounced "Leng-kester" (PA Dutch accent). The restaurant at LNS is pretty decent (if its open still, been a while) and there are tons of better places than Moe's to eat!
Thanks for the info!
Hey i work at that railyard you flew over landing at toledo executive.
It’s like flying over the Great Lakes in a single, some think that it’s acceptable I do not!
I like the flight following. Without that, I’d probably be against the long flight over the top in case of engine issues / other emergencies.
I'm always on FF. Well, unless Chicago controllers tell me they're too busy!
As long as all your plans are working, its a piece of cake. Specially with the moderne tools like iPad and others. But as always....what can go wrong, will go wrong...and at the end only one thing left to do then: 7700
Next recommended video I got: Real Pilot Story: Trapped on Top from AOPA
Yea. Don't get trapped!
@@thecommercialpilot I thought you did a good job qualifying what you did and why... just seems like the Algo wanted to drive it home, lol! Cool vids!
I just flew into KUNV on Wed. 5500' there... and 6500' back... smooth air. BUT... minimal clouds for me.
Nice spot!
Gutsy but, it seemed well calculated.
The best insurance policy is a good autopilot.
My Century 1 at least keeps the wings mostly level!
Toledo Exec landing wasn't rated, but looked like a 9-10/10!
Haha. It was a 9 for sure! ALMOST a total greaser.
I got my Private at 8D4! do you still fly there? I've been flying there for 4 years and did 3 flights out of Sparta just this week.
Sure do!
I'll only do it with scattered clouds.
Scattered = way less chance of a sucker hole.
16G Seneca has cheap fuel even though it is full serve. Nice people. It's where I stop x-country NY to WI.
Don't think I've been there yet! Will add to my list.
Ive been here done this before on my 1st 1k mile trip. Its always a little lucky to get away with it. Bottom line is get your ifr. You need it anyway. VFR on top should be called IFR MAYBE.
IFR Maybe is pretty correct
Small small world. Martin state is where I fly out of 🤣🤣
You did your due diligence, why didn’t you submit a PIREP?
Good question.
@@thecommercialpilot lol, if I was doing a similar XC and I had that weather I'd be so stoked a pilot would have reported that out, once ur above that layer your VFR all-day-long lol. Good video 🤙🏼🤙🏼
@@aloha-rob yea. I love pireps. I need to give them more often.
How it works for me . Do the ground work first , where you are and where you want to go just like you are going IFR , then if the condition happens all you need do is change altitude and request radar vectors to the localizer and believe your instruments , works easy and good .
Unless you're unfamiliar with using your instruments, or don't have them. Then you're gonna have a rough day!
What does your weight and balance look like with all that gear and full fuel? I'm not familiar with Grumman, but as a Cessna driver I am impressed that most of you gear didn't have to ride in the front seat to keep it in the envelope.
WB isn't really a problem unless it goes in the way back. I pack most of the stuff either in the rear seat, or when the seats down, then in the rear seat area. That trip with just me + full fuel and ~200lbs of gear I was well within W/B. I do need to make sure I don't overload the baggage area behind the rear seats (or if folded, the far aft cargo area). Also it's important to make sure no big heavy stuff could slide back far far aft. You could then be in an out of balance situation. But really it's very flexible in loading. I did the same flight a month later with a passenger, with even more gear (his + mine) and we were still JUST under gross and within W/B. With the folding rear seats the Tiger is a pretty good load hauler. The only bummer is the baggage door is tiny, so anything bigger than a Pelican 1510 has to go over the canopy.
Weather forecasting isn't an exact science, and that forecast scattered layer at your destination could end up being overcast. You never want to end up above a ceiling with dwindling fuel and no way down. Even if you and your aircraft are IFR certified, requesting a last minute pop-up IFR clearance to get down is less safe than just filing an IFR flight plan for the trip IMHO.
Trying to fly (use) an airplane for dependable transportation without possessing an instrument rating is akin to playing Russkie roulette. Glad you made it this time...
It's certainly tougher. But I've been doing 100hrs a year for work for a few years now. I have my instrument now and that helps... but has it's own set of challenges (ice and storms mostly)
Engine failure.
Oops, now you have a VFR pilot and plane making a forced landing through IMC. What could possibly go wrong?
Yea maybe. I've passed my instrument checkride since I made this video and don't really think I'd be any more excited to make an engine out IFR descent through clouds with a low ceiling below. I don't feel like it's much more different than flying over Lake Mi or Erie, or Superior, and I do that often. Would probably rather make a VFR into IMC descent over decent terrain than a splashdown. If I didn't have all of my instrument time completed when I made that flight I may have felt different, but I think the risk is manageable. For me it would probably be set best glide, point plane in direction of terrain I hope to hit. Autopilot on (electric). Wait. Wait some more. Pop out. Smash into Terrain as slow as possible.
It gets worse ... you just lost your engine, that means you lost your vacuum, and there go your attitude indicator and gyrocompass.
On top is awesome, only issue for you would be you couldn’t pick up an IFR pop up if needed. That’d get you down once on an airway and in radar environment.
You're just not thinking hard enough if you think that is the only possible issue. There are about 122,467,884 possible ways things can go wrong if you are VFR on top and aren't qualified to fly IFR.
@@chuckschillingvideos Totally, so you could just not fly at all and Zero things will go wrong. Nice and safe
@@pbnak By all means just keep petting your rabbit's foot and hoping nothing bad ever happens to you. I just hope that you don't take anyone else with you.
@@chuckschillingvideos eatabagodiqs good sir.
@@pbnak What is your tail number? I'll be looking for you in the NTSB crash investigations.
What sunglasses do you have?
The ones with the cool HDMI port in the middle are Vuarnet’s
@@thecommercialpilot lol, whats the purpose of the hdmi port? Good video by the way
Jack Curran hah it’s just a joke. They don’t have an HDMI port. Just looks like it.
@@thecommercialpilot I thought so, but then again you have all the camera gear so thought maybe you had some cool james bond style camera glasses. Im a commercial pilot in Australia. Would love to come and fly around the US on a holiday one day. You guys have a lot of good airports with good facilities. You land at most airports in Australia and you are by yourself in the middle of nowhere.
@@thecommercialpilot vuarnets are non-polarized?
There is a raison why it's allowed in the USA, because we allowed pilot to think a make decision, maybe sometime it's ok maybe sometime is not a good idea. Who ever is again that without consider all the element is in favor of transforming pilot into burger flipper.
True!
A lot of gear, but be grateful you aren't shooting commercial stuff with a 3/4 portable deck on one shoulder and a Sony DXC3000A on the other! :) Those were the days
Good old days.... or bad old days.... ?!
@@thecommercialpilot A bit of both. Physically it was not fun (memory of lugging all that up the sketchy ladder of a foundry machine in Mexico), but also fun as hell, even when filming at a farm and I had to I dive from a charging horse. Horse: 1. Shattered camera and tripod: 0. Or when I was physically threatened by some mob-looking guy when I was shooting harness racing in Detroit and when panning the crowd for my client, I caught the guy and his companion (probably not his wife?). He sent a goon over to me and had words. Lots of fun stories. I'm sure you have countless of your own!
ForkFlight amazing! Haha yea absolutely
VFR on top may be legal but that don't make it smart.
You can put enough fuel in the tanks but can you be prepared for an engine out over the clouds?
Wouldn’t be ideal.. would probably prefer that over engine out over water though.
Why am I not suprised that the pilot that is willing to fly for hours on top with NO emergency options and doesnt have a basic understanding of a stabilised apporach, also does his run up and pre-takeoff cheks while taxiing!!! Mate you need to go and get a cowboy hat!! You say you dont weant to get pressonitis yet you do stuff like that!!! Kids dont try this at home this guys dangerous!!
Ok ok.. I had emergency options though in the form of good weather on both sides, enough instrument training to feel comfortable, and an instrument rated aircraft. The only taxi runup I did was departing Toledo, the plane was on the ground for less than 15 and I had my eyes on it the entire time. Highly unlikely a squirrel got in my air box and a quick magneto, vacuum and control check is pretty easy to do while taxiing for a mile at an empty field.... I’ve already verified the plane is in good condition 3x in the last 5hrs.... I’m just verifying the things I can’t see haven’t changed. Which approach wasn’t unstable? Into Toledo? Because of a little slip to correct my slope? No way... with that attitude we’d all be doing 4 mile box patterns and calling straight in from our Cirrus’s 10 miles out. Sometimes it’s fun to fly the plane instead of just ride in it.
@@thecommercialpilot Mate to each their own I guess, with my QFI hat on and in the interests of the promotion of safety let me put these thoughts out there.
Runups on the taxi -
• Hey they are your brakes yo9u use them as much as you like but remember they get hot and if you abort a takeoff you may need as much stopping power as you can get.
• You can either tax9i safely or conduct a proper runup you cant do both at the same time. I agree there probably was no small fury animal inside your engine compartment. BUT you may have fouled a plug, had a mag / EI component fail, dropped an oil line, damaged a control surface, had an alternator drop off line, had the pin holding the carb heat fall out.. etc etc etc. When you are taxing you are trying your best not to run into things, run off the taxiway, enter an active runway etc etc etc, you are not giving your pretakeoff checks the attention they deserve.. I include the run-up as part of the pretake off process and is every bit as implortant as checking the doors are locked and the trim is set. Yes there was a mag drop but how much was it? How much was the split? What’s the limit anyway? Yes there was a rev drop with carb heat but how much? You basically just checked there was an oil pressure gauge not really what it was reading. What was the oil pressure? What are the limits anyway? How much was the ALT charging? Get my theme here? You cant do a thourough check while trying to not hit a taxiway marker. Do you see airlines doing checks while taxiing? Nope they dedicate one pilot to do the checks and one to taxi and do nothing else. What about an F-16? Nope they either have all the checks done before they stsrt to taxi or they stop and do them.
• How much time did this save you??? 30seconds maybe a minute? If the difference between making a weather window and not is 30 seconds you should not be going anyway!
• What about a takeoff safety brief? Can yu seriously give yourself one of the, think about what you need to be doing, rememb er it and taxi at the same time?? NOPE
• When you are looking inside at the RPM where is the nosewheel going?
Slipped landing -
• Mate I agree there has to be fun in flying, I do a lot of sideslips some of the aircraft I fly dont even have flaps, but there is a time and a place for everything. After a long leg when you are rushed, fatigues, stressed and trying to talk to a gopro is in my mind not the time for this.This is the time to fly a nice standard circuit, with a dedicated profile to a safe landing. If you are so high you need to side slip you have probably rushed in and stuffed it up. A goround will only cost you 6 mins max!! A set of circuits where you plan the approaches, even PFL’s are the place to do it, go and do a set of short steep approaches become an ace at it thats awesome but pick your time and place.
• A wise person once said to me the 2 most dangerous phrases in Aviation are “Hey why dont we....” and “I am just going to ......” when you do something outside the normal without having planned it first!
VFR on top-
• This ones up to you but remember you can have issues where you need to descend and land that are not engine failures.. WSX forcasts are not always accurate, fuel issues come up. Would you consciously fly over thick jungle when you can fly around it?Same deal here really! But its your choice your aircraft.
• As far as “having enough IF experience” goes. Are you a qualified and current instrument rated pilot? If not then no you dont. Don’t delude yourself that you do People have been killing themselves this way for as long as there have been aircraft and clouds... Yes i have a book full of acutual IF, a lot of single pilot stuff in fact and I respect clouds, trust me its no place for the inexperienced , uncurrent!
Hey ignore me all you want not really my issue but I hope you do take some of it on board. I would hate to see you the subject of one of Dan Grider’s CZcams posts.....
Think QFI is dead right , I find 20mm IFR very tiring, do a IFR course and your respect the weather more than you ever thought, and your look back a decision you made and 😱😱😱
you're a commercial pilot and you're worried about vfr over the top? just file.
Not a commercial pilot. Am a private pilot that makes commercials. When I shot this vid, I was VFR only.
Never in a single engine...
Dang so single engine shouldn’t fly IFR then either?
@@thecommercialpilot not the brightest idea..
@@jeffdo9195 There's thousands of us that fly single engine IFR every day. Single pilot even. Statistically you're more likely to have an incident in a twin.
@@thecommercialpilot gee most GA accidents I see are single engine
@@jeffdo9195 There's a lot more singles flying around. Your chance of death is noticeably higher in a twin than a single. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25701648/
In my opinion, there's no such thing as "marginal" VFR.
Meaning you think it’s just either vfr or ifr?
@@stopclickbaiting2553 Meaning that what is being called "marginal VFR" should be treated as IFR. Pretty simple. And I think any non-IFR qualified pilot who is planning a flight route where he is intentionally flying on top should have his or her head examined.
Mehhh I dunno. 2500ft ceilings are marginal. If that was IFR a lot of pilots wouldn't fly at all in half the country.. Or none in Alaska..
@@thecommercialpilot Air traffic density isn't the same in Alaska or "half the country" as it is in busier areas such as around big cities. If you aren't factoring that into your determination, then you are making bets with other folks' lives, at least in my opinion.
chuckschilling I’m pretty sure Alaska has some far denser air traffic areas with common marginal conditions but I think that’s besides the point. Nobody is suggesting breaking VFR minimums. They are set to what they are to give you and others plenty of time to see and avoid, even in marginal conditions.
Stop making a drama of it, just fly and enjoy, try to get a traffic service to descend through the cloud. Obviously you don’t do it if low cloud base is reported and you are flying over high ground. Commercial pilot 38 years pilot in command with 12000 hours.
So declaring an emergency, accepting an illegal clearance (as a VFR pilot) and then risking a descent with skills you may not posses isn't worth a LITTLE drama? Sure as a commercial pilot like yourself with 12k hours, it's literally nothing. But for a low-time VFR pilot watching this video, it might be something.
@@thecommercialpilot I'm with you, although are you sure you're accepting an "illegal" clearance after declaring an emergency? I'd reference FAR 91.3 (b) "In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency." The counterpoint might be citing "careless/reckless operation" but I think this would be situational and not applicable in your circumstance. (just an interesting thought to add to the discussion)
Matt Salsamendi I guess illegal wasn’t the right word. But I’m not sure how the FAA would feel if you declared an emergency after knowingly making a poor decision? (Assuming you flew it well and lived) Careless and reckless could apply there I would think as you said.
@@thecommercialpilot If flying VFR over-the-top in it of itself was careless or reckless it would have its own FAR (aside from the student pilot stipulation). And certainly there are cases where you would end up in an emergency VFR-over-the-top that don't arise from poor planning (medical emergency, mechanical failure, etc...) hence why I think it's situational and an emergency -> instrument approach situation can be legal and sometimes the safest option even for a VFR pilot (say, if you had a number of practice approaches recently in prep for an IR). I guess my point is taking on additional risk in it of itself isn't necessarily careless/reckless if the risk is well managed and my tl;dr is I don't think the FAA would penalize you (I'm sure they'd have some questions) in this scenario if there was a good outcome.
Musac dubbed over the engine MUSIC. So stopped watching, and withheld my applause.
Ha. It's not like an o-360 sounds amazing....