Hades Retrospective: Analyzing Genre and the Legacy of Rogue
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2021
- A comprehensive look into games like Hades and Rogue, and into mainstream perceptions about the rogue-like and rogue-lite genres.
Links:
Hades Launch Trailer
• Hades - v1.0 Launch Tr...
Hades Development Noclip Documentary
• How Supergiant Secretl...
Supergiant Games Article
www.gameworldobserver.com/2020...
Rogue Central
www.coredumpcentral.org
RogueBasin Wiki
www.roguebasin.com
Where Have All The Genres Gone?
www.web.archive.org/web/200012...
Spelunky Article
www.polygon.com/2012/10/23/35...
Roguelite Article
pc.gamespy.com/pc/ftl-faster-t...
The Berlin Interpretation
www.roguebasin.com/index.php?t... - Hry
This is a high quality fucking video, you deserve more subs, i can see you being as big as NakeyJakey... CZcams, bless this man please.
THANK YOU BRO!! i appreciate that, I'm glad you liked it
Really well produced video. I'm surprised it doesn't have more views.
Babe wake up, new Dogbert just dropped
I agree it's important to keep the distinction between roguelikes and roguelites, but it's unproductive to try to make roguelite players change what they call their games. Since roguelike players are the ones bothered by the lack of a distinction, it would be much easier to change what they call *their* games (classical roguelike?). I think it's fair that Supergiant calls Hades a roguelike. If I release a roguelite in the future, I would do the same. Roguelite sounds sort of demeaning, like it's less of a full experience than rougelikes, which is understandable, considering the term was probably made by roguelike players, but I don't think roguelite players can reasonably be expected to accept the term.
I loved the video btw!
Glad you liked it!!! And yeah I agree overall, at the end of the day, the genres can't just change their names, so we need to just accept they're going to be less than ideal in their classifications until it just happens naturally at some point. imo the solution starts with games journalists being conscious of the history of the games they cover.
Hey man, nice video
Btw, the best way to play classic Rogue is on your iPhone in the form of Rogue Touch. Takes away all the keyboard tedium, while containing the full Rogue experience. It‘s also tile based, although I wish it offered ASCII as an option. To me, the 2 most important factors why I would never call games like Hades roguelike, are 1) they are realtime action instead of turn-based, which makes simply for a completely different game. While I might love turn-based games, I might hate realtime, and vice versa. And 2) the meta grind. In roguelikes you start from zero every single time, it‘s all about you learning the gist of the game, to get better by learning from your mistages. Games like Hades simply take your time as a currency. The longer you play, the further you‘ll get, partly because you unlock stuff that makes the game simply easier. Many people settle with the term of calling classic roguelikes simply "raditional roguelikes", and I‘m in that same boat, makes total sense. And interstingly, talking about the evolution of the genre, in my eyes roguelikes haven‘t evolved at all from let‘s say NetHack. Compared to this 1987 game, all modern games absolutely pale in gameplay and depth comparison. Even a Skyrim is absolutely hollow in terms of options and moves you can explore in NetHack. So, the only thing that involved is the bling. Graphics and music got better. Modern games are mostly extremely shallow, and taking the amazing (!!!) production quality and the fantastic storytelling away from Hades, what‘s left is a super standard arena battler like hundreds berore and after. So, I urge everyone to try playing NetHack and get your minds blown. You‘ll look differently at modern games afterwards, once you had a couple of "WTF, this is possible?" moments. Finally, great videos that deserves many more views!
Nice one
thank you mr jarosrogf
I am going to click like and comment this for later because this is one of the few videos I've seen actually give proper credence to roguelike fans being upset, something most brush off as "dumb internet crybabies"
But I'm not done watching it rn
Edit: I said this too on this video that I super-disagreed with (czcams.com/video/FdrUpxokScY/video.html)
I think I've found the root issue: both sides are defining roguelike OPPOSITE of each other.
The original RL fans likely played Rogue itself, or Hack, or NetHack, or ADOM, or Moria, or any of the early versions of it which were based off of each other as they were open-source (the RL community has become very derivative in culture from this).
The veterans from Usenet really were looking for games like Rogue....obviously creating the actual term 'roguelike' for its truest and most genuine purpose: "I played this game called ROGUE. Do you know any games LIKE it?"
So their usage of the term evolved slowly based on making derivative content off each other and see what was actually required to keep the general theme and spirit of the game. If you want to imagine this, you can imagine Rogue as a house and each new fan-creation based on it was seeing what they could remove or keep without the house collapsing.
New people nowadays aren't being introduced through Rogue itself or close copies/successors like NetHack. They're coming in from games like The Binding of Isaac, FTL, and even Spelunky (Spelunky's actually kind of a special case as it kickstarted the word into the mainstream). If you've actually played Rogue or NetHack, you will see a HUGE difference in them versus TBOI and FTL-but that's not registered to someone whose only experience are from them. So they start defining Roguelikes retroactively, by seeing the common threads in modern games named it.
Conclusion: Yeah, I agree. Like, this video actually has very few flaws in its conclusion.
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