HOI4 Guide - 3 Things you didn't know about Naval Positioning
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- #hoi4 #heartsofironiv
In this guide I go through how Naval Positionings works and why you should care about it.. ;)
It's probably the most impactful mechanic when it comes to naval battles and yet I don't think many players pay the attention to it, that it really deserves.
So, I will go through 3 Things you didn't know about Naval positioning.
As per usual, I don't focus on the meta, but rather on the mechanics :)
I hope you enjoy it! :)
If you want more guides from us and at the same time want to support us, check out our Patreon site: www.patreon.com/hyggegaming
0:00 Intro
1:12 What is Naval Positioning?
3:22 All ships "Weigh" the same in this mechanic
2:38 The Hygge Gaming Channel
5:44 How can you boost your naval positioning?
8:32 Lower your enemy's naval positioning
10:54 Conclusion and main takeaways - Hry
![Eminem - Houdini [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/22tVWwmTie8/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for clarifying why my 10 stacked wolf packs were not very effective!
Glad you liked it :) /Badger
Hey, they can be very effective! But mostly only between very large supply lines, e.g. between Japan and Eastern China. There I pick up convoy fleets of 20 to 30 ships regularly. So only 5 subs is way too low. However there is a trick, as always: You put a carrier fleet in the middle of the sea zone without active mission. Then select all CAS and Navy Bombers, choose naval attack as a mission and right-click on the zone. Then your mini-sub fleets will practically detect everything and start fighting. Result: Almost every naval engagement will be supported by 10 or a little more CAS/navy bombers. Very effective too.
Awesome video Johannes. I love how my first question "Hmm I wonder how they calculate which is the larger fleet?" was immediately answered.
Tack :) ❤️
as always, thanks for these videos, you guys made an absolute gem of a channel, keep up the good work!
I just wanted to say that the conclusion can be its own video, on how to design your fleet from the ground up, I'm not talking on how to design each ship or whats meta, but basically the mainstay to have a solid fleet in conjunction of the things you helped us learn through the whole serie.
again thank you
Thanks mate! Please have a look at the “How to navy” guide me and Boppus made a few months back. It’s not fully what you want but a bit like that. I like your idea :) (you’ll find that guide under “live”)
@@hyggegaming thank you so much, turned out its one of the few videos I didn't see yet.
again thank you guys for your tremendous work!
Thanks for the in-depth explanation of how positioning works! The more I think about it, the more I think the positioning penalty is badly modeled in-game vs. history. What positioning is trying to model is the disadvantage of large, unwieldy fleet formations versus more agile smaller groups (and, in gameplay terms, limit doomstacking). However, it does so using *relative* fleet size to the enemy. I think the modifier should apply based on total fleet size rather than relative to the enemy. The size of fleet you are able to field without penalties should be determined by technology (probably electronics) and naval base size.
Larger fleets are not less combat effective, but they do have a disadvantage in terms of being easier to spot/avoid and not covering as much ground hunting for the enemy.
For convoy raiding, submarines hunted alone and then joined up with other subs once an enemy was spotted for attack. 10 subs versus 1 destroyer is always better than 1 sub vs 1 destroyer (which is pretty much a suicide run) IRL. For fleet action, individual destroyers and cruisers do spotting patrols and then as large a force as possible is brought to bear on the enemy.
Paradox definitely need to find ways to eliminate doomstacking. Naval base size should probably matter a lot more. For example, a size 1 naval base could only support a limited amount of naval tonnage (production cost in-game), while a size 10 naval base would support much larger forces.
The largest fleets assembled in WW2 for naval engagements were rarely in excess of 100 ships (eg battle of the Philippine sea), while the majority of engagements involved far fewer (10-20 ships for battles, and many small skirmishes between individual ships and flotillas). This was largely to logistics/supply + the need to cover more ground to protect convoys.
In order to supply the large carrier task forces of the late Pacific war, the USN had to have dozens of fuel tanker ships, aircraft repair ships and other auxiliary ships forming a supply train over thousands of kilometers. This is also why the Royal Navy couldn't support such formations by the end of the war. The operating range of fleets should probably also be penalized by total fleet size, so individual ships can operate far afield while large formations need to stay close to home.
I agree with you mate. That’s another reason why we play TFB in multiplayer, where they added a cap on fleets under each admiral, with a weight system for different ships. It’s still not perfect, but much better than vanilla
2nd comment lol: it would be interesting to do some calculations on the tipping point where positioning penalties to attack, etc outweigh the additional attack provided by a second ship. For example, going from one submarine to 2 subs increases torpedo attack by 100%, so a 25% positioning penalty isn't going to negate that. Once screening efficiency is involved the calculation becomes trickier. Someone should get a spreadsheet going!
There's one thing I know about navy. A 3:1 ratio of small boats to big boats is needed. And I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong.
Well, you’re not wrong :) ❤️ that’s for screening efficiency.
Suppose you and I have a naval task force in combat against each other with 1 aircraft carrier, 1 battleship, and 1 heavy cruiser. Suppose also that I have 7 light cruisers, and you have 28 destroyers, and that my 7 light cruisers collectively have the same HP that your 28 destroyers have. Neither side has a real advantage in penalties then. I will suffer a screening penalty due to not enough screening ships, and you will suffer a Naval Positioning penalty for having about 3 times as many warships as I have.
A destroyer has a notoriously short combat radius, so for a long distance invasion support mission or for a long distance convoy escort mission, sometimes the destroyers have to be shed from a task force in order to have good enough task force range, at the expense of causing a penalty for not enough screen ships.
I had the same take aways as you did. One thing that I did notice when looking at positioning is that it is a battlewide statistic and is not limited to a task force. You can have a deathstack and split it in 2 task forces, and then have them both engage in battle and you would have the same positioning if they were 1 deathstack. Also positioning is a pretty fluid mechanic, as ships enter and exit battle that also affects positioning. So as a battle goes on, you will see the positioning change over time.
Quality of ships > quantity
Also the other thing to consider when determining the size of a task force is that fleet damage is spread across ships. So while a large fleet surface fleet may not do much damage when fighting smaller fleets, it has significantly more hp and less likely to lose ships, but also less likely to destroy ships. I usually go with something like 30-40 ships in a large task force. Any more and I think its way overkill. Carriers though are great vs large fleets because carrier navs prioritize damaged ships.
Superior tactician is busted.
I completely agree. I did test your first point as well, and you’re right, if more ships join the battle, it changes. So it’s important to consider. Yeah, superior tactician is too powerful. In the mod we play in Mp it’s completely changed to other stats
now I understand why my submarines always got sunk in the channel... also I understand now why my little german fleet with super heavys can so easily sunk the british grand fleet
Glad you liked it :) just FYI, the channel is shallow sea, where subs have increased visibility as well
Very interesting, thank you👍
Helpful video, thanks
Happy you like it :)
Great video!
Never really read what positioning penalty actually does, debuffs wise. Night fighting spirit that I've been using seems severely outclassed by positioning one. Cheers
Thanks!! I think night fighting is really good if your sole focus is raiding. While positioning feels like the best choice if you go for surface fleet :)
The naval game! Time to me invade St Helena and South Georgia 😋😘
Dont forget Spanish Fiji and the Australian East coast scare ;)
@@hyggegaming lol. I knew as soon as I saw Badger on Spain, especially with the recent excellent naval guides, we were in for some fun. It didn't disappoint
😂😂😂😂
So Admirals with positioning buffs are only beneficial for large fleets as if your are the smaller fleet your positioning is usually 100% anyway?
Correct! If you are on par or smaller, positioning won’t do anything extra :)
if you make a grinding generals and admirals guide i promisse you i will buy the patreon
Will this do? ;) HOI4 Guide - Hidden Skill Mechanic for Generals Explained
czcams.com/video/vtbKQjpGotQ/video.html
@@hyggegaming this is very helpfull, but please make a video about how to get level 8 generals out of spain civil war
I’m not sure what you want to see?
Great content. Very helpful. Thank you for this. The lip smacking is harsh though. It hurts my ears 😩 you have an 80% debuff on mic positioning 😝
Aaah, thanks for pointing that out, I’ll see what I can do :) (I boosted the mic since last time, so might be that)
@@hyggegaming thanks for understanding. You guys are doing great work on the channel. Very helpful content for experienced players 🤗
@@hyggegaming you can try a pop filter - it does not have to be one of those big, circular things which you place in front of a microphone when recording for example music, maybe smth you can put over the micro-part of your headset. It also makes the language "softer", getting rid of the wind when speaking "hard" letters like "p" "t" and so on
Can you go over 100% with positioning? or is that as far as it goes and and +% is waisted?
No you can’t :) correct
Isnt it best to go for +crit hit chance?
Crit chance is always good if you focus on capital ships with big guns, however, I think naval positioning is the overall better “jack of all trades” buff you want
@hyggegaming hmm. It seems a lot of people give different advice. One youtube video (on different channels) claims one thing, another one claims the opposite. Ty for the reply though.
No worries :) I think what I’m trying to say is “it depends” on what kind of fleet and admirals you have and intend to use for what purpose, as you usually want modifiers on top of modifiers.
@@djdoubleu1 That's because noone, not even paradox, understands navy. The meta is changing literally every hotfix for 8 years because the code is so bad
@@maciekGTR Typical PDX as we all known.
Does this mean my 30 sub wolfpack is too big
If you keep them in the same task group, yes, way too big. If you spread them out under the same admiral, then it’s no problem
@@hyggegaming lol, that admiral held 300 subs overall...
😂😂😂
I feel like you're in the same boat as me, really trying to make the navy game work as intended but you really picked the wrong navies for this.
Go run as the US or Japan, you need those bigger sized 10-20 sized sub fleets to get full coverage in the south pacific. Plus the Anti Sub task forces will fall pretty quickly when you up their aggression afterall CLs and DDs are just as susceptible to torps as anyone else.
Try playing the game more as intended then try to fit the navy to that, that's what PDX is trying to do and you'll see the issues more. For example doing convoy escort or patrol around the Philippines is fine with the 4 DDs and 1 CL all the way until you meet the japanese SF and they your SF comes in and then all the poistiong goes to hell.
Also sadly as much as positioning was the 2019 attempt to stop the deathstack it clearly didn't work.
But don't get me wrong nice work breaking it down.
Thanks a lot mate for all your feedback! I’m not really trying to point out the meta here. The reason for that is that I mostly play MP but I make guides that should be able to fit both MP and SP. So for the guides, I just try to break down the mechanics and then everyone can make the most of it themselves :)
@@hyggegaming I get what you're saying just as bad as a positioning penalty is clearly the deathstack overcomes it and doesn't even incur that many losses for it.
It's a shame these stats don't work as intended very well