"The Legend of Ruby Sunday" got me - Doctor Who review
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
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Is that a ruby in Sutekh’s head?
Also, the doctor says he brings disaster when he’s talking to Kate. Does that somehow imply that Sutekh has been with him for a long time. The Doctor has said similar stuff like that before. Had he been on the Tardis waiting all this time to be revealed now?
Lastly, the voice actor is Gabriel Woolf. Might be a tad over reaching but does anyone think this has any relation to “Bad Wolf”? Could “Bad wolf” somehow be Sutekh too??
All the episodes Sutekh appeared.
Pyramids of Mars
Transmission from Mars
Kill the Doctor!
The Age of Sutekh
The Pyramid of Sutekh
The Eye of Horus
The Tears of Isis
Old Girl
The Legend of Ruby Sunday
Bet UNIT is feeing really dumb for laughing at the Doctor for knowing about S Triad, but then hiring a woman called Harriet Arbinger.
My thoughts exactly! LOL
Her name is Harriet Binger.
@@Zozette27I will never understand people being so arrogant and ignorant to actively "correct" someone who was already correct, when this is SO easy to look up.
@@Zozette27that would've been cool, it would've made sense too
Personally I feel like the Doctor was using the mystery of Ruby's mother to avoid dealing with the idea of Susan. Hence why he was so reckless and immediately pushed himself into investigating when that soldier died due to his reckless curiousity.
We've changed Prime Ministers so frequently recently that not naming them in the script was a smart move. We'll have a different one in two and a half weeks anyway.
Just said a similar thing myself....along with the lettuce part. 😁
Even in Who they go through them regularly....
Immediately wanted to say similar, spot the guys from the UK in the comments.
TBH, I think it was a shot at Rishi, but like you say, he's gone in two weeks, so it's still a smart move.
@@Tillyard86 Honestly I think it was just a reference to Harriet Jones.
I liked that the footage on the VHS for the time window was filmed by a camera that was 68 metres away. Because that's approximately...drum roll... 73 yards!
Beat me to it!
Although it's technically about 66.7 meters, which Kate says in 73Y before she gets cognitohazarded.
So yeah, it's the closest to 66.6 meters possible . I did pick up on that at the time.
So Ruby Road has something to do with the Beast/Sutekh, the goblins were drawn there from their plane of reality.... I'm too sick right now to try to put the breadcrumbs back together.
Which makes me suspect Ruby's mum is none other than Ruby herself and that's why the camera can't show her face, just like in 73 yards. I don't know what that makes Ruby, possibly a rival of the pantheon, a good god who left a disguised part of herself in the past to grow up with no knowledge of what they are, as a normal human so the god can be ready to fight Sutekh at the right time and place without him noticing. All the weird things like snow, the music inside her and the time loop from 73 yards could be the powers of the god manifesting through her subconsciously. Whether all the rest of that turns out to be right, I'm 100% convinced the woman in the hooded coat is Ruby.
@@itisALWAYSR.A. 666 The number of The Beast. lool
@@itisALWAYSR.A.While it might prove to have deeper meaning later, my interpretation of this was that the whole thing in 73 Yards was based on Ruby's insecurities and fears, in particular abandonment. The camera distance to me also played a part in this, because every year she watches the tape and so this idea of someone she can't make out 73 yards away also bleeds into the reality created around her.
@@yilesse Ruby's mum can't be Ruby! That's way too Red Dwarf!
Not to theorycraft here but it made sense to me that Susan Triad showed up everywhere the TARDIS went, if Sutekh attached himself to the TARDIS and Sue is Sutekh's avatar/conduit. Sutekh went everywhere the TARDIS went, so his avatar showed up along with him.
Fair point. Would have been nice for somebody to say it, for the folks like me.
@@CouncilofGeeks if that was the intent it may be stated in Empire of Death, we shall see
This has been my assumption since watching the episode. I won’t have a problem if they don’t explicitly state that was the case, but I can see how some might.
That implies Sutekh attached himself to the TARDIS before Wild Blue Yonder
Well this Susan is first referenced in the giggle the episode immediately after @@ThePlayTyperGuy
I honestly found the framing around it to still be impactful. Zero idea who Sutekh was, but they just established him as A) being the head honcho of the crazier villains we saw, B) lurking all season by *charming the TARDIS*, C) killed a dude in a horrifying WTF fashion, an D) is a god damn 4-eyed jackal monster.
Still blurted out "Who?" but that barely made a dent in the intensity.
Honestly can I just say Gabriel Woolf is one of the best v/o’s the show has ever had
I love his voice dripping with pure evil
Agreed! Sometimes I just rewatch his scenes as "Satan" just to get goosebumps! "These are the words of the Beast..."😱
Dude needs an award or something for keeping the same tone and everything almost 50 years later.
@@shangothrax YES
IKR
Definitely, he and Stephen Thorne (Omega, Eldrad, and Azal) are my big faves! (Thorne slighty more, as I'm a massive Omega fan, but still!)
At this point, I totally agree with you that this season is too short! This episode totally points out why more episodes were needed. It would've been cool to see more buildup of the gods and Susan's other alter egos. Anyway, this episode was nuts. I love that Carla was brought in to support Ruby. I can't wait to see how Part 2 goes.
I'm afraid it's impossible
It takes 32 weeks to film 9 episodes and then 40 weeks of post production
Ok, my friend, you've been up and down my comment section bringing this up. You present it as if those things happen consecutively. As soon as an episode finishes filming, the post production for that episode starts. So those 32 weeks and 40 weeks are overlapping, likely totaling 45 weeks of real time.
But we got space babies and goblins
@@CouncilofGeeks Yeah I feel like it needed 2 more episodes. Also I feel that the Devil's Chord should have been the first episode, and I may have replaced Space Babies. The Devil's Chord better sets up the overall narrative of the season.
It’s gotten to the point where I anticipate your review as much as I anticipate the actual doctor who episode! Thanks for this 😊
I enjoy watching Disparu hate on every episode and find fault with everything
The actor who plays Morris has been doing amazing things and getting a lot of awards recently so I’m excited to see if he’s going to be part of more stories
He even won the Taskmaster New Year Treat this year.
@@larsg.2492I’ve never seen an ep of taskmaster
He’s a fun character, but I don’t think he should be here now. Adding new side characters to established groups in the finale is an odd choice and may lead to bloat.
@@ColzoArtI haven't either. Someone brought it up in a review, and all I could think about was the Marvel character. 🤣🤣
@@Macapta I liked that they added several new characters at UNIT, it made the twist that Harriet was a Harbinger hit harder since she was just one of several new characters that were introduced as part of the familiar established team.
As a fan who has only watched New Who, I think the Sutekh reveal landed for my sister and I when we watched the episode but only because we grew up loving Egyptian mythology. I had no idea Sutekh was a Doctor Who villain while watching, I had thought they just employed a version of Set as the character's name and liked it. I didn't realize Sutekh was a pre-established villain until I was looking up responses later.
Taking ruby to see how Maiestro destroyed to present was a clue to Sutekh becase the doctor Takes Serra to the future to 1980 to see the destruction of Sutekh.
The confusion of casual viewers is being overstated. They establish that he’s a god of death which is all you really need to introduce him. Also the idea that the Master reveal didn’t emphasise the villain’s name as something for viewers to recognise is wrong, they literally had an extended scene building up to Derek Jacobi saying “I am the Master”
Most viewers who haven't seen classic who I've met have been like "don't know who this guy is, but cool"
I agree. I am such a viewer who watched a lot of new Who but very little of classic Who. I didn't even realize that Sutekh was supposed to be a known villain until it was mentioned here. I rather assumed Sutekh is a mythological figure, probably from egyptian or related religions. Since the show clearly established them as god of death, I could just accept this and react to the reveal the same way as I might've to the beast in The Impossible Planet or any other "real world" god if they ever include one.
i feel like the master is different because the buildup to him, combined with how similar his name is to "the doctor", gives you a pretty good idea of what he's got going on
@@TRGOTSVODSyeah and in the past season we've had two other gods who show up with harbingers and/or fuck with UNIT, this isn't entirely unfamiliar
@@SorchaSublime ehhhh i mean i hear you but. the connective tissue between time lords, a specific species tied to the doctor, and the master vs gods as a concept and sutekh? not to mention the emotional element to the YANA reveal- the doctor spent the past season or so reminiscing about the time lords and how great they were, so the juxtaposition makes it hit harder. here it's just like. aaah! scary guy!
I didn't know Sutekh. I didn't even know they were recurring, I just knew that the Doctor recognized the name and it scared him. Also, there was tense music, Sue became all scary and killed a guy, along with the Tardis being a trap where the Doctor isn't there to save people. I felt I had plenty to latch onto to understand that this was a big scary evil, nothing less than other villain introductions.
They didn't name the Prime Minister because there was no guarantee that there wouldn't be 4 different ones in between the time of filming and airing
I think the thing with Susan Triad is that Sutekh is currently fused with the TARDIS and has been since at least the start of Wild Blue Yonder. "Everywhere *I land*, a woman appears." She's not scattered across all of time and space and coincidentally running into the Doctor, she's being manifested by the God secretly riding the TARDIS.
What I've seen from newer viewers is that despite not knowing who Sutekh was, they were still invested and scared because the buildup and reveal was so well done, and it was clear that this entity, whoever they were, was a dangerous adversary for the Doctor
Yep. The reveal was really well done and you could genuinely feel The Doctor's terror. He seemed frozen in place, stunned. Really great acting from Gatwa that I think sells the reveal.
Personally I think Susan Triad revealing her skull face and turning a man into sand with just a touch is the best possible answer to the question "Who is Sutekh?" At least the best answer an episode like this can give without ruining the moment.
Yup this is how Easter Eggs should work the detail is there for those who know, but it's laid out with correct tone and buildup to deliver the right note without expecting people to know and without calling attention to the fact that it is an easter egg.
Just as little information nugget. RTD has confirmed that Shirley will return, the actress just wasnt avaiable for the episode, so RTD introduced another advisor. Considering we have already etablished there is more than one scientific advisor for UNIT I dont think its weird The Doctor isnt surprised not to see her - she could be on field work or even just be taking her yearly vacation.
That's what I thought
No offence intended to Lenny Rush, but it would have been nice to have Osgood or heck, even Malcolm (Lee Evans) make a return. There were other options than making a new character.
According to RTD she’s on business in Geneva.
@@Trikeboy2 I said under another video that it would be cool to get Osgood, Maurice, Malcolm and Shirley together in one episode. It could be fun seeing them argue and disagree. I know Lee Evans retired from standup but surely he's be up for a bit of acting if they asked.
A big part of why Lenny was in this is because he was cut from Space Babies. Not sure why but it was something to do with that.
I was wondering if Ruth (Shirley’s actress) would be back. Glad she will be
My first reaction to the Sutekh name reveal was, "Damn, they're bringing in Egyptian gods to fight the Doctor? Fuck it, let's go!" Then I saw a CZcams thumbnail showing classic era Sutekh and I realized, "Oh, THAT Sutekh! I think I have his episodes on DVD."
"The one who waits" is a common moniker for Death or the grim reaper, so i predicted that he'd be the god of death in the same way the toymaker and maestro were those of games and music respectively. I didn't predict sutekh, but while i had heard of him, i haven't seen classic who so...
I didn't know about Suthek beforehand, but with the overarching threat through those gods who represent primordeal forces, it all checked out for me in the summary of his titles. We knew there was some big bad coming and in the hierarchy it seems plausible that it's the god of death and destruction. That it's also Suthek was just a nice bonus imo.
Yeah, I think 'God of Death' is enough of a big bad whether it's a new character or bringing back an old one.
The time window scenes were just beautiful. Ruby just breaking down into tears and then later on her just standing fighting against the snow cos of the wind. Just stunning cinematography this episode
My GF is New Who only. I stood up and screamed with glee. She looked at me like "what the fuck?' 5 minutes of explaning who Sutekh is took the fun out of it
Um... I was in a similar situation - the glee, the 'what the fuck'.... we just downloaded Pyramids of Mars - any excuse to rewatch that gem!
Potential Sutekh foreshadowing in The Devils Chord.
The Doctor and Ruby go forwards in time to see how the world will look if Meastro wins, which is also exactly a scene from The Pyramids of Mars, Sutekhs episode in the classic series.
Both episodes deal with Pantheon members, so parallels are ripe.
I thought about that scene from "Pyramids" at the time and did not make the connection. "1980 if you want to get off". OMG that was brilliant, looking back at it! Well played, RTD!
RE: Susan - The Brigadier met her in the Five Doctors, so this story serves as confirmation that The Brigadier either didn't remember the events of the Five Doctors or perhaps never told anyone!
Their memories were erased by the Timelords at the end of the story.
@JAM92 although through Jamie and Zoe we've learnt that it is not such a permanent fix as the Time Lords imply or intend it to be.
@@hugoalynstephens9166 what do you mean exactly?
@@JAM92 Tales Of The TARDIS for one, their memories were triggered back upon seeing each other again and in Big Finish, Zoe recounts as best she can an adventure with the Doctor and Jamie in Fear Of The Darleks and that's not even bringing Season 6B into the conversation where Jamie was allowed back for a limited time at the Doctor's request while working for the CIA (Celestial Intervention Agency) to assist him in adventures such as The Two Doctors.
@@hugoalynstephens9166 Big Finish isn't canon.
I think that it was clearly explained in the episode that the whole Susan Twist thing was a TRAP. Sutekh was luring the Doctor to where he wanted to confront him.
i’m pretty sure shirley is meant to be in season 2. ruth madeley must’ve just been busy when they were filming this.
The way they talk about an "opportunity" opening up to move the genius kid to here from Space Babies that Ruth dropped out of this episode for whatever reason even the Segway seems to hint at it.
Yeah Shirley would've had the role which Morris did in the episode but because Ruth Madeley couldn't do the filming at the time, RTD decided to let Lenny Rush play Morris instead of his original role which was to just voice one of the babies in the first episode.
@@cisalzlman yh definitely. i think she’s coming back for season 2 tho, i think she was seen filming.
RTD said in the commentary for The Giggle that Shirley is going to be a big character moving forward. So yeah, definitely things planned for her. He also said recently that the reason she isn't around for this season is that she's "On business in Geneva" which sounds like a teaser for the future if I've ever heard one
Great that she's not gone, but I feel odd about switching out one disabled actor for another to stand at the exact same desk.
Maybe it's the one adjustable desk in the office but nah.
Can probably be fixed by having both actors in the same episode. :)
I think people are overblowing the need to have prior knowledge to appreciate the Sutekh reveal a bit. The episode establishes that he’s a death god, he’s done something to the TARDIS which is bad, and that he’s a big scary dog monster that possesses people and wants to kill everyone. Sure, the name reveal is given quite a lot of weight but beyond that you’ve got all the information you need. I did get a “who the heck is Sutekh?!” text from my sister who has never watched a single episode of classic, but she was also super excited despite having no idea who he was.
As someone who hadn't gotten to pyramids on Mars before watching this episode, I honestly thought the reveal was that he was an Egyptian god. I was like, "wow I'll have to look up Egyptian mythos later".
@@AnonUnlimited Same!
I hadn't seen the original Pyramids of Mars but I did know that Sutekh was a Classic Who villain because I had a Doctor Who encyclopedia thing and read wiki entries and stuff like that.
They really seem to be digging into Mel's characterisation during her brief time with the 6th Doctor rather than her time with the 7th - I totally believe that this is the same person who forced the Doctor to go on the exercise bike and drink lots of carrot juice.
Also, from my own experiences, I'm finding that most people unaware of Sutekh were completely along for the ride and weren't bothered about it. The only time a friend of mine said it felt anti-climactic was not because it was Sutekh, but because Susan Triad wasn't anything to do with THE Susan
IIRC, Mel is the ONLY companion we never get an onscreen origin story for, thanks to the timey-wimey nature of the Trial of a Time Lord! Maybe some EU story filled this in, but I sure don't know how she came to travel with the Doctor...
@@HandofOmega They did. Kinda. As fair as I know there are two stories that play with Mel's introduction (a book I haven't read and the audio The Wrong Doctors) that just makes everything messier because it's fun.
@@HandofOmega Nothing on-screen. It might make for an interesting tidbit or throwaway line somewhere in the future - like, "Remember the (insert Alien Menace here)?" "I'd never have solved (random problem) without your help." "And then you took me away." Cheesy? Yes. But I'd be cool with something simple like that, if they ever decide to address her first adventure on the show. I think it's kind of fun that we don't know. But yes, everyone else has an origin story that's been televised.
@@lucascecilio658the funniest part about the "wrong Doctors" is it really doesn’t answer how Mel joined the TARDIS at all.
I adore “The Wrong Doctors” and think it’s amazing (like most of Sixie’s audio adventures, and it went a long way towards persuading me to enjoy Bonnie Langford and the character of Mel.
I think it’s REALLY interesting here that Mel tells Carla, “Don’t worry, terrible things happened to my family, but the Doctor really helped me through it”, since we still don’t know this story.
Not a new viewer, but I had never seen Pyramids of MArs, and had never even heard of Sutekh before this episode. I think the episode does a decent enough job building him up as one of the Pantheon in the same vein as Maestro and the Toymaker. He's got plenty of threatening presence, and his design is beyond cool. So even though I had no idea he was a classic villain, this still hit for me.
The TARDIS is also acting up at the beginning of The Impossible Planet, with the Doctor mentioning that the TARDIS is queasy. The Impossible Planet also featured writing that was similar to what was seen on Wild Blue Yonder, and of course features Gabriel voicing The Beast.
I feel like Sutekh is pretty self explanatory because in the episode they say he is the God of Death or known as Seth. I guess not everyone was taught about Egyptian Gods at school haha.
If people still are confused then maybe the episode wasn't clear enough or they weren't paying attention 😂
So susan was a harbinger of death? She always appeared where death occurred except in The Church on Ruby Road I don't remember anyone dying in that episode
ok back in 1975 Sutekh was not a god
Just an alien villain
powerful yes but not a god of gods
@@debrahanes4439Ruby technically "dead" cos the goblins went back in time and abducted her and eat her but the doctor went back and fixed it.
Oh yeah, right right. I forgot, I did think that it was just a historical god I wasn't aware of, and the Egyptian god apparel definitely helped with that
True, but even if people knew the Kemetic (Egyptian) gods from school or whatever, they would mostly just know him as Set (or maybe Seth), not Sutekh. Unless your a Kemetic Polytheist or a member of the Temple of Set (an offshot of the Church of Satan).
Still, I'm a longtime Classic series fan, so I know Sutekh as a powerful alien from 'Pyramids of Mars', not an actual god.
Something that caught my attention - is "The camera was positioned in a storage yard 66m away" that took the video that night on ruby road... and 66 meters is approximately - get this - 73 yards... It makes me wonder.
Glad you also thought of that moment with the doc saying he’d been a father before during 10th’s run, that’s exactly what I remembered
Or when 7 or 9 have alluded to or mentioned it. (Curse Of Fenric and The Empty Child)
That was before the Toymaker made the Doctor's past into a jigsaw.
@@SoulPoetryandOtherWorks that's the excuse for everything theses days, it's getting tiring
@@grandkhan9261 It really just gives us an in-universe reason to say what we've said all along--that Doctor Who simply has no canon. It contradicts itself constantly, so I'm glad we have The Toymaker's line because it at least adds *some* level of sense to the madness.
In Boom the Doctor appeals to Captain Vater "dad-to-dad", so there's inconsistency even within this season
Mrs Flood was detailed as a "slow burn" by RTD, and I suspect there'll be more teases of her to come in season 2, and at the end of that is when she'll have a bigger role.
Without knowing who Sutekh was, I figure the Beast from Satan's Pit had made a reappearance, which... isn't necessarily wrong in terms of meaning and function if not origin (still waiting on that one), so the revelation would have still worked for me even without the background, personally.
I'm now pretty latched on to the Doctor's line about not necessarily knowing who his children are yet. Imagine the reaction if Ruby's Mother pulls down her hood to reveal... Jodie Whitaker!
Im a New Who fan and I haven't seen Pyramids of Mars. This ending was scary as f and Im hyped as motherf. All I need to know is that it is god of the gods, see Doctor's face and hear creepy things like "he is returning" to make me be hyped for this.
Kate not knowing about Susan bothers me because there is a photo of her in the Black Archives. Even if they don't know who she is, they say they keep tabs on past companions so she must have met Ian and Barbara who would know Susan.
Good point, I had forgotten that.
Exactly what I was thinking.
Tbf UNIT ALSO had a picture of Katarina and Sara Kingdom which is impossible! And it's not necessarily that Kate didn't know about Susan, she may have done but she didn't know she was the Doctor's granddaughter.
i think the doctor’s conversation with kate will have inspired him to go and see susan at the end of the next episode.
Yeah, there's been too much harping on Susan NOT to pay off that C. Gun! Now, whether we'll SEE that or not...maybe that'll be the hook of next season? Maybe that's who the next companion will be...
@@HandofOmega could be the hook of the next season also, i just think if they built it up as a red herring for this story it would be good to still pay it off some how.
And step all over Big Finish's own companion continuity? I would end up in tears.
I have a theory about Susan Triad. First off, I think she is truly good. She’s just being possessed by Sutekh. In fact, I believe she may actually be …
Susan Foreman.
Now, here me out. The Doctor added new info when explaining regeneration to Ruby. He said time lords can use regeneration as a disguise. Why add that if you’re not going to use it? So here’s my theory:
As Susan lived her life, she began to use her exceptional scientific knowledge to develop technology to benefit mankind. At some point early on (1975?) she finds it necessary to disguise herself as a human ala Smith and Jones. She develops a successful company and becomes well known.
Three months ago things began to change, the Sutekh possession only beginning. She changes her company name. She begins having nightmares. All along she prepares for the release of her software to benefit mankind. (Sutekh likely plans to use this for evil).
After the Doctor somehow gets through this crisis, Susan is released from the possession. The Doctor figures out she is Susan but is hiding in a chameleon arch. He releases her, and she “regenerates” into Carole Ann Ford.
@@janeenpuckett5946 Susan and the Doctor parted ways in 2150, not 1963. Her son was even a companion to 8. There is a lot of material in the extended universe, not only within the Virgin New Adventures. I don't think RTD wants to delete all that. And there isn't a Time Anvil in sight like with Ace.
And to go with Regeneration as a disguise, don't you think that would be more in line with Mrs Flood, who, by her own words, is hiding herself away?
But again, that can all be a red herring. We'll see on saturday.
My reaction to watching this episode was similar to the lack of enthusiasm you express about the idea of a second watch through. It felt like the episode was just running in place for a while until it could throw out a twist at the end. At one point, I wondered “is this moment actually all that dramatic and exciting, or is the music just doing a really good job at making me think it is?”
I like to think that the reason Russell held off on naming the Prime Minister was just because at the rate we've had them...who knows who they would be by the time this episode aired lmao
UK politics are so messed up right now. Back in 2022 Liz Truss was PM for 7 weeks. She probably hadn't finished unpacking before moving back out of Downing Street. Previous to her the record for shortest term was 4 months and that's only because the guy went and died in office.
I also think the joke just works for every prime minister. The best PM we've had in the last 20 years was a war criminal. We'll see how Sir Keir turns out, but I imagine still not a person you can let into UNIT lol.
And the PMs we've had in Doctor Who were also Harriet Jones, alien murderer, and the freaking Master (human murderer).
To throw in my two cents as someone who had no clue who Sutekh was, the episode still largely worked for me because I thought it did such a great job ratcheting up the tension throughout. Then at the end I was like, ‘Huh?’ But then I got on Twitter and understood.
6:54 Technically that already happened in Big Finish with 8th doctor meeting Susan, just depends how you class big finish as canon.
I tend to classify Big Finish as "It's canon until it's not, because the show does something that contradicts it."
I also remember the 11th doctor mentioning to Clara about bringing his granddaughter to Akhaten in series 7.
8's time because of Night of the Doctor is Canon.
1:10 My Adventures with Superman (almost typed “of Ruby Sunday” dear god) ended its most recent episode with a cliffhanger. Then I remembered it was episode 5 of a 10 episode season and realized it was a midseason cliffhanger stunt
Totally agree that it isn't an anagram, but I do love the play on words that "Susan Triad Technologies" becomes "Sue Tech" which is a homophone for Sutekh.
Still doesn't explain why they needed the tech release platform moment to do this specific release, surely there's supposed to be something about the digital here?
Comparing Maestro being drawn in by a chord and an agreement
@@itisALWAYSR.A. the tech might not be the relevant thing but the broadcast, spreading the message of hus arrival as wide as possible as quickly as possible, the suspicious, probably alien, probably TARDIS related tech launch just being a way to draw in the Doctor.
@@itisALWAYSR.A.implication is that that was bait to lure in the Doctor.
Yeah but why specifically did this need the doctor's presence? Wouldn't it have happened regardless of whether he showed up?
I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the Doctor's companions will point out that it's not actually an anagram in the next episode. It's the kind of 4th wall breaking joke RTD would make.
On a re-watch there were Sutek easter eggs back in The Devil's Chord. The Doctor taking Ruby to a future timeline that was destroyed, showing they need to deal with the bad guy was a repeat of the 4th Doctor taking Sarah Jane back to 1980 from 1911 to see destroyed earth in Pyramids of Mars.
Overall I’d say the reveal works for both fans and non-fans. I’ve been a new-who fan and watched the odd classic episode so knew who Suetekh was and loved the reveal and I watched this episode with my boyfriend who’s only doctor who exposure has been watching with me since the 60th specials ( i actually had to wait to watch this episode with him since he’s now become a fan and is enjoying the season, which shows that this is still a decent jumping on point) and he also loved the reveal. Didn’t know who suetekh was but based on character reactions and everything else, he knew it was a big deal and is super excited for next week
For me, even as someone who has only seen ONE Classic Who story up until this point, I think the reveal of Sutekh did enough to sell the idea of how F**KED we all are with their presence
I think one of the reason the Master reveal worked better than the Sutekh reveal is that the Master has a bit more name recognition among casuals. The Master was in like 20 stories of Classic Who, including the TV movie. Sutekh was in one. Still, it worked, but not as well as Yana did.
Yes we will be seeing Shirley again because she has been seen filming season 2 with Ruby.
As someone who never saw the original story sutek is from, I still really enjoyed the reveal. It was effectively tense and scary in my eyes. Finding out it was a returning villain made it even more interesting
As someone who has not met sutekh before, I will forever hear it as sue-tech
I am a 50 year old who back in the day was a 4th doctor fan and I was like was that a Pyramid of Mars reference? I will say my 14 year old son sat down about halfway through and liked it it. He specifically asked me when the next episode comes out and to not watch it without him. So it caught his attention!
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed the whole "wrong anagram" was a bit of a cheat, as they changed one of the letters, thus not making it an anagram
Yeah, that REALLY annoyed me, to be honest. I was like: 'Um, that's NOT an anagram, Doctor'... 🙄🙄
@@NicoleM_radiantbaby considering the history of great anagrams from Doctor Who and Russell in the past, Torchwood in the show and Panic Moon (an anagram of companion behind the scenes when Karen Gillan was auditioning as Amy Pond) this just stuck out to me as cheating
Making it the right anagram would’ve been boring
Even if you had the right letters it's not really an anagram...
"That's good" Engagement!
Like Andrew Stanton said: "The audience wants to work for their meal, they just don't want to know they're doing it. Don't give me 4, give me 2 + 2"
When they made the reveal, I knew who he was not because of doctor who but I knew of him because I know that's just one of the names of Set. I like Stargate and egyptian lore. It took my wife telling me that he was Villain from the fourth doctor.
The finale has a LOT to live up to lol. What a terrific build up!
As someone who hasn't gone back to watch any Classic Who, I didn't know who Sutekh was, but I could tell from context/acting that this was bringing back an old villain. I felt like the reveal didn't hit as hard as it could have if it were at all forseeable without that background knowledge, but I still enjoyed the episode. And I was absolutely sold on the threat level of this enemy just from the voice alone. I get that they couldn't hint too much at it during the season without giving it away, so I'm not sure what the right balance would have been here. But thinking about it afterwards, I think a Classic Who flashback (like they did with the reintroduction of the Toymaker in The Giggle) would have been very helpful.
I've watched Dr Who since 2005. I've seen a few of the classic Who but not many. When the Sutekh reveal happened, I was left with "Huh?" I think the issue was the heavy focus on the name for the reveal. If the name happened, the Dr was like "Oh no... Sutekh." You could have one of the companions ask who that is, then have him say "He's the god all god fears. I faced him once but... We need to run." I dunno. Something to give a bit of context. Then cut back to the avatar cloaking over the TARDIS and have that as the cliffhanger. It may have hit better that way because the emphasis isn't on the name itself but the situation.
I usually agree with much of what you say, but not here. I thought the introduction of Sutekh was handled marvelously. Ncuti's reaction tells it all. I watched it with someone who was not familiar with Classic Who, and she was left wondering why he was reacting the way he did. It was yet another mystery to be unveiled. She loved it. Great video nonetheless.
Actually, The Brigadier would have known about Susan, since the two of them met in The Five Doctors, although given that School Reunion and Death To The Doctor imply that Sarah Jane didn’t remember meeting the 5th Doctor or Tegan during that adventure, you could headcanon it that everyone besides the 5th Doctor and his companions lost their memories after being sent back to their proper times and places at the end of that episode.
The memories of everybody besides 5 and his companions are actually wiped at the end of the story to cover plot holes.
Also, UNIT (including Kate) ALREADY knows about Susan because they had a GIANT picture of her up on the board of the Doctor's companions and associates in the Black Archive in 'Day of the Doctor'.
@@NicoleM_radiantbaby that doesn’t mean they know she’s his granddaughter. Only that she traveled with him.
I honestly just hope we get Susan's return while Carol Ann Ford is still with us. Shes reprised the role plenty on audio, but those are of dubious canonicity. She deserves the chance to properly pass the torch to a new regeneration, or simply appear for a small while for a reunion with The Doctor
yes, I want to see her too, especially because I of her age, you never know (I don't wish anything bad, but life is unpredictable, I hope she has a long and healthy life) what will happen in the future before the OG gets to return
Lenny Rush who played Morris also voiced one of the babies in Space Babies.
He was meant to and recorded it but they pulled it and gave him this role instead
Calling it right now, the mystery of Ruby's mum is there to distract us from wondering who her dad is.
My Mother and youngest Nephew really enjoyed the reveal even without the knowledge because they built it up with the speech.
I think the problem you're talking about could have been addressed by also fixing another problem you've discussed before: Not having enough episodes in the season to establish a status quo. Imagine if there had been more episodes where The Doctor and Ruby were just off having standalone adventures. They could have little moments of him casually telling her about some of his previous adventures. Stuff like "Hey, did I ever tell you about the time I fought a werewolf?" or "You wouldn't believe what happened when my companions and I met the Aztecs." Then, in the middle of one such adventure, the writers could have him say something like "You know, this reminds me of that time I battled Sutekh. He was a real bad one", possibly followed by having him fill in some of the details (though not so many as to be obvious foreshadowing). That way, new viewers wouldn't be completely in the dark when this reveal comes up. At the very least, we'd have the context of "This is a bad guy that The Doctor has dealt with before and is now returning."
similar thoughts honestly, but that 2 minute build with Sutekh, Susan & Harriet was PHENOMENAL, we had exactly the same reaction
It really amuses me that they got TARDIS from S. Triad, but they somehow completely missed that H. Arbinger was a Harbinger. That's not even an anagram, it's just _right there!_ Is there a smarter 13 year old they can hire? lol
Meh, I had no idea who Sutekh is, but this still really hit for me. It was built up well enough, the realization this entity had been riding on the Tardis since WBY, its very obvious power and malevolence... I wasn't so bothered, even if he was built up as a return. The name thing was kinda silly but I was fine with it saying oh okay it wasn't what they thought, it's a twist, he's being announced just the way the Maestro did as a new god. My biggest gripe was the linking of the Susan Triad mystery to Ruby's mom
My pondering on Mrs Flood are centered around water: ponds, rivers, floods and snow. Amy POND, RIVER Song, Mrs FLOOD. Ruby's snow. And what about the connections to music in the names Melody and Song? I don't know if these mean anything.
I only watched the 2005 reboot and the reveal still was fun and cool for me. The build up was solid, the Sutakh was chilling and also the way TARDIS was involved makes it even more cool and scary. Can't speak for others though.
Edit: also, i might not have any emotional connection to Sutakh, but Doctor does and if he is terrified then i am as well.
I assumed Sutekh was an old villain but I didn't need to know more than they gave us. (I didn't know he was from Pyramids of Mars, I've actually seen that one and just don't remember any of it)
I wish Susan would turn out to be Jenny's daughter, given that the Doctor doesn't know that Jenny is still alive. It'd give her a timey wimey aspect.
I was laugh-crying in delight and surprise when the reveal came. I did not see it coming AT ALL, and I ADORED it!!! Pyramids of Mars was a story I saw on PBS in the 90s and loved. It isn't one of my all-time favorites, but I remember being terrified by Sutekh - Gabriel Woolf's voice is perfect - and thinking the ending left room for him to come back (which he's apparently done in Big Finish? I don't keep up with them.). RTD gave us the reddest of red herrings this season, though, and had the characters say what we'd all been thinking right up front to get the theorizing out of the way so we could just enjoy the story. I am so here for this. My wife hadn't seen PoM, and didn't know who Sutekh was, but she could tell I did and that it was a big deal - I think she got more enjoyment from my reaction than the end of the episode itself. There were so many little moments in the story I loved as well - Mel's character moments, especially the ones with the Doctor, Rose and Ruby becoming friendly so easily, the "how's your uncle?" line, Kate doing anything, the mocking that Susan Triad did to the Doctor, Rose interning or working at UNIT at all and how happy she was to see this version of the Doctor, the Doctor picking up and whirling around all his old friends....
All that being said, I don't think we'll get the answer to the biggest mystery of the season next episode: Will Cherry EVER get her cup of tea?!
Cherry getting a cup of tea is the real mystery of this series!
Weirdly I think RTD himself did this "reveal of a classic villain" thing much better for new audiences just last year in The Giggle. When 14 realised the quirky shop-owner was the Toymaker, the moment was interspersed with colourised flashbacks to the Hartnell story so even for people who don't know who he is, they understand the kind of reveal the show is going for. I'm surprised they didn't do that again but with Pyramids of Mars.
I think one way to salvage this would be to have the finale open with a "previously on Doctor Who" that shows us moments from Pyramids of Mars instead of The Legend of Ruby Sunday, much like Twice Upon A Time did with The Tenth Planet.
I hadn't seen Pyramids of Mars but I knew who Sutekh is, so I was able to quickly explain to my family and they still said they loved the episode, but obviously our experience is not going to be universal. I by myself watched Pyramids of Mars later that night and the moment in that story where Sutekh claimed one of his names had been Satan definitely shoved me towards the "Sutekh and the Beast are two aspects of the same being" theorist camp, though I noticed Satan wasn't among the alternate names for Sutekh given upon his return so maybe not. Either way, I enjoyed Pyramids of Mars way more than I expected to. Tom Baker and Elizabeth Sladen were and are true gems.
Shirley is in Geneva in-universe due to filming constraints, think it was DWM or SFX that mentioned it, she's back next series confirmed by RTD.
I thought the TARDIS groaning sound was pretty clear in every appearance so interesting you didn't realize it was happening
The Doctor saying he doesn't have a kid in this episode was a little bizarre considering the resolution of Boom was literally a dad-to-dad thing
I don’t watch a ton of fan theory videos but I did see the confused adipose video on sutekh due to the thumbnail so I watched cause I wanted to see his reasoning. As soon as he said Susan technology will be sutekh I knew it was happening. That’s 100% something RTD would do. I knew there was no need to speculate further, so I went in 99.9% expecting it to be sutekh. Still happy though and I was surprised the original voice actor came back!
I was fairly sure it would be SuTekh. WhoCulture also had that down as an option. The Confused Adipose usually has pretty good theory going for sure.
When the 10th Doctor talk’s about his children, perhaps he meant some, who where not the parents of Susan and the parents of Susan are not born jet…..???
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging contradictions in the writing.
I was actually a little confused and disappointed when the reveal didn't turn out to be "the beast". I still think that would've worked better personally. It all seemed to be heading in that direction and I don't think that would be as alienating to new viewers as having the literal devil appear after several gods seems to make sense. Idk
As a New Who viewer, the moment did pull me out. Only because all the other members of the pantheon presented so far had been generic and I’m familiar with Egyptian gods, so I was thrown off by the specificity. The fact that he was clearly a past threat would have been less strange to me, I’ve run into moments like that in New Who finales before, if it hadn’t been a “twist.”
But because so much time in the episode was devoted to setting up Susan being Susan, and hiding the reveal, all the lore they dropped at the front of the episode was pretty pointless (unless they do bring in Susan which … ehhhhh). Some of that space would have been useful for seeding anything to give new viewers information about the actual threat.
Or maybe it’s just more evidence of the season being way too short. If we’d had more episodes, they might have been able to seed some hints into more episodes pointing towards this eventuality. Some more stuff like the indigestion, but lore related, that didn’t seem important at the time but would make sense at the reveal.
Incidentally I am that kind of nerd and immediately searched CZcams for lore and found your review for Pyramids of Mars so thank you! It was helpful, I’m unlikely to go back and dig up classic Who, I have a hard time getting reliable access to it so your reviews are always a treat.
I mostly agree with you but for me, a fan who didn't know who sutekh is, the reveal worked. Maybe not that moment with his name but only that.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't ask someone who is a classic who fan for more information but please don't turn new fans into people who need to be shown everything and explained three times to enjoy it
I have extremely mixed feelings about this episode, and the discussion from 24:15 kind of hits upon a large part of it (actually, the talk about all the setup and some things being dragged out also hits upon other issues I had). I only know NuWho (outside of some general knowledge of classic), so my immediate response to the reveal was "who?". I appreciate this video's comparison of the reveal within Utopia, as I think it's quite apt. I may not have known a lot about Doctor Who when I saw that episode, but I did generally know one of The Doctor's biggest enemies was/is The Master, so the name was able to hit decently, but the delivery of Sir Derek Jacobi and the story surrounding it (as well as the focus on The Doctor being the last of his kind over the last 2 seasons, but especially that one) really helped to hammer in the danger.
I appreciate the defence of the viewer and accessibility. I've been wanting to watch Classic Who, but I have the problem of not wanting to start in the middle of things: New Who at least started like a reboot, not requiring a lot of knowledge of its past, and did a decent job rolling out things and giving enough context when it brought back stuff that I didn't run into an issue - but I started with Rose and went chronologically from there, I didn't just jump in on any random episode. I tried watching First Doctor stuff but there is that issue of missing serials and such that I fell off very quickly, nevermind how much there is to check out that way (and the quality is...not always high).
I think part of the issue with Sutekh is just that it didn't feel well-seeded, even in hindsight. And I don't just mean within the episode, but over the season - there was a focus on the more "mystery box" elements (Ruby's origin, Ms. Flood, Susan Twist) and not enough of a thematic or continued throughline about the villain. Let's compare to other RTD finales: yes, Bad Wolf didn't say much, but the pain of the Time War and hatred and fear of the Daleks were important elements of the season, as well as the manipulation and future of humans, that it worked; the Cybermen/Dalek fight worked partly because it played on the Cyberman setup earlier; the Master worked because there was that aspect of the Doctor feeling alone that was so continuously emphasized, along with the Doctor almost ignoring modern Earth by going on these adventures. It just felt...sudden and the wordplay didn't work for me, either (for one, I thought it was just Triad or S Triad Technology/ies, not "Susan Triad Tech" or "Sue Triad Tech"), nevermind I've thought the "H-Arbinger" wordplay is absolutely the worst. You'd think UNIT would've been a little more concerned about someone they employ with such an ominous name, it'd be almost as bad as "Theodore Hemaster" or something.
ALL OF THAT SAID: I am really willing to ignore most of these problems *depending on how the actually finale lands the story*. It needs to tie up threads well, roll out threats and resolve them well, it's a tough situation for them. There were some great glimmers in this episode (Ruby & Rose are a nice pair, would be nice to see them do something together in the finale), but the parts I have problems with really soured my finale reaction and make it hard to look back on it as a great episode.
I'm glad you called out the issue for new watchers because I was very taken aback by this episode on my first watch. I've watched all the new stuff and the 4th doctor was my dad's favorite but I still didn't know who Sutekh was lol. it felt like they'd ignored the other setups in favor of some random new thing and it totally lost me until I saw some youtube shorts about Sutekh and Baker. It would have been nice for them to tease that something from the doctor's past was coming like they did with the toymaker IMO. I like the episode retroactively more after this but I still wish it hadn't been out of left field.
40 mins of plodding then 5 mins of a brilliant cliffhanger ....oh my days felt like non stop exposition then boom now to resolve this arc in 50 mins
16:15 also also, I just watched pyramids of mars to... well... undertand who Sutekh is, since I haven't watched the classics yet, and the exact same sound also happens when Sutekh's mind projection thing breaks the TARDIS in the beginning of the episode. obvioulsy much better quality, but they did match it VERY closely
I didn’t really know Sutekh all that well, but I caught wind of the speculation. Especially in the news that a Fifteen-Ruby Tales of the TARDIS is Thursday telegraphing a tie-in, that meant the relevant episode was repeatedly mentioned. As a Stargate fan I immediately latched onto “This is their Apophis”
I'm loving the cliffhanger of this episode! XD It's making me theorize like crazy. My official theories are-
-Mrs. Flood actually took Cherry Sunday downstairs into her Tardis to keep her safe.
-Mrs. Flood is SUSAN! She reacted so strongly to the Tardis the first time because she realized it was the Doctor.
-Ruby is a trap set for Sutekh by the Trickster. Sutekh referred to him as the "God of Traps". With the Trickster's past motivations, I don't think he would want the universe to die. I bet Ruby's power to rewrite time in "73 Yards" came from the Trickster. He planted her with The Doctor because he knew The Doctor would be there to face Sutekh. Also, I get a big Trickster vibe from the hood of "Ruby's Mother".
VHS tape from camera 66m away. Which is, near as dammit, 73 yards.
My Dad described this is the first proper Doctor Who episode we've had all season (which he hastily added, didn’t mean he disliked the rest). Which led to a debate as to which Sutekh design was better, my dad said the giant cgi monster looked silly, whilst the original was scary, and in fact the skull faces for Susan and Harriet were properly scary…. Whereas I thought the skull faces was the silly part, "God of Death, therefore Skulls. Woooo!" And I loved the giant Jackal head.
Either way it was a great build up, and a great reveal. I punched the air with joy when it was revealed. Would I have had this reaction if I didn’t have a decent understanding of Classic Who? Possibly not. But don’t automatically assume people asking known experts about Sutekh means they had a negative reaction. Some could have been asking in a "who the f*ck was that?" way, but others might have been in an eager, "i genuinely want to know more about this character," way. I used to get lots of questions about classic who at school because I was the resident expert, and it was mostly the latter.
Worth noting there's a new Tales of the Tardis on Iplayer and bbc four on Thursday at 8pm so I imagine a lot of viewers will watch that as its the Pyramid of Mars episode so will fill in some lore for people
8:35 it’s funny because the brig would have known OF Susan since he met her in the five doctors, but he wouldn’t have known she was his granddaughter because they never mentioned it😂
The warning sound the tardis makes shows up in the old serial
Honestly even as a big fan of the 4th doctor I do think Sutekh is overhyped within the fandom. If there was one thing I'd call this season I'd call it "self-indulgent" for good and bad. RTD seems to have decided that he's going to make Who for himself first and foremost when he got brought back. I guess we'll see if it worked next week.
Agree!
I didn’t watch classic who but really loved the reveal of Suetekh, not because I knew the character previously but because I feel like they set the stakes well, they revealed the most important fact that this character is the god of death because saying something is the god of death sets the stakes high. we got the who they are( Suetekh) the what they are (god of death) and their ambitions (to bring death to all life) all in that short ending of the episode. If you know classic who maybe you have more details on the why but for a reveal I felt it did good in setting up the character for the finale
I would love to see Carla become a permanent presence at UNIT because it could be a very interesting approach to the companions family. Perhaps this was done in classic who but for new who at least the companions family has sort of always been just normal people with average jobs not really knowing what’s going on with their kid as they travel but having a companions direct family member know all about the aliens and what adventures the doctor gets up to could be a interesting approach, the most these family members get is either right in the midst of an invasion or a single adventure with space dinosaurs.
I also think the fact that they kept having Susan show up and the snow appearing around Ruby created a bit of a shield for the Tardis Groaning mystery box because it distracted everyone with the upfront mysteries that you forgot about the mysteries that were always there but didn’t get attention, because I know if people weren’t speculating about Susan and the snow then everyone would have focused on the Tardis groaning and centered all the theories around it.
I didn’t know ow who Sutekh was and it still hit for me. He seems VERY formidable and anyone able to manipulate and turn the tardis against the doctor automatically goes up on my list. House is one of my favorite one time villains because of that
Kate Stewart had a picture of Susan Foreman in the Black Archive in the Day of the Doctor..
.
Doesn’t mean she knew what Susan’s relation to the Doctor was. Could well have been labeled “unknown companion.”
Maybe she forgot as a side effect of the Doctor erasing her memory once too often.
Of course new viewers do understad who Sutekh is or what they mean for the Doctor, because they are not some complex concept that needs years of lore and/or fan explaining to be understood… they are the God of Death, as simple as that, and that’s a pretty much universal concept that any kid can catch. As the final big bad villain this season, the concept of the Pantheon has been well introduced, we know the Doctor is really scared of them, and we know Sutekh is an even bigger menace than Toymaker and Maestro because a) they are explained as that inside the episode b) they kill three of four humans in mere minutes, and that it’s pretty self-explanatory as a big menace. I would say, this episode alone presents a more understandable background for Sutekh as father/mother/other of all the mean gods of the universe than what Pyramids of Mars did introducing him as an alien. New viewers don’t need to know any of that to enjoy Legend of Ruby Sunday. Really, don’t worry about them, they are fine.
Also I didn’t know who sutekh was going into the episode but I knew the trickster from SJA and they’d already introduced toymaker and maestro so I was still able to understand that it was a shit serious thing even tho I probably didn’t get the OH SHIT moment that others have. I think introducing other pantheon gods gradually from the 60th really helped for those of us who haven’t seen classic who (especially as a lot of us my generation grew up with the trickster so we understand the gravity of the pantheon
Gods) to understand even tho we don’t know sutekh that they’re a serious thing
The episode (and the reveal) worked for me; but I watched the Pyramids of Mars on PBS as a kid with my dad and my foster brother with a ginormous bowl of popcorn. It was fantastic!
They would play Doctor Who late at night as the last program on the air (back in the days when stations had an end to their broadcast days), and if it was a short story (1 or 2 episodes) it would take that long, and if it was six episodes long, well, that’s how long it would take. I know that it wasn’t initially broadcast like that but, even then, the chaos of starting the story when it started and ending it when it ended, whether that took 45 minutes or 4.5 hours, was just amazing to me.
It’s kinda too bad that NewWho (or WhoNeuveau) doesn’t have that freedom to grow or shrink the runtime to fit the needs of the story.