Why is Yosuke #1 in Japan while Ryuji & Kanji are... not even close? (Values Dissonance in Persona)
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2023
- Yosuke is way more popular in Japanese polls, meanwhile Ryuji and Kanji consistently rank pretty low even though they are fan favorites with the Western, and even global, audience.
Interestingly enough, Yosuke doesn't really have any glaring flaw that would make him unlikeable to a Japanese audience unlike all the other male party members (Akihiko, Yusuke, Junpei, Ryuji, Kanji). In this video, we'll be going over how this is a case of "values dissonance" between Japan and Western audiences.
SOURCES:
docs.google.com/document/d/10...
History of Fujoshi & subculture resources:
www.fujoshi.info
link.springer.com/chapter/10....
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#PersonaAnalysis #ryuji #yosuke - Hry
Japan doesn't necessarily *hate* Ryuji and Kanji btw, nor even dislike them, it's just that they prefer other characters.
Just another thing I wanted to clarify: I understand that the "ideal man" is different/nuanced among all the European cultures as well. I'm not trying to say the Western ideal is **all completely the same thing.** But a lot of the differences in taste can be attributed to things like how individualistic vs. collectivist your culture is, what philosophical and/or religious background has influenced it (Christianity in the West vs. Confucian philosophy, Buddhism, etc. in East Asia), and so on. This video is just condensing what is otherwise a very nuanced topic into something that's easier for people to digest (especially those completely unfamiliar to these cultural differences).
I'm always happy to see when these kinds of videos spark an interest in viewers though, who then go on to do their own research into these topics! :) And I do appreciate hearing what you guys have to say about your own culture(s) btw!
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you shouldn't worry about making broad "generalizations" in your videos! all your points were very well made and understanding the divergences between eastern and western cultures is essential for less conflict between them. i am half japanese/brazilian, and having lived in america and europe made me realize that most people are not familiar with what comes and what doesn't with our ethnical/cultural backgrounds. respect and honor for our elder institutions is great, but it generates a heavy ammount of suffering for those unable to follow such high expectations as well
@@conradomh Yeah, I'm not surprised that most Americans don't know that. Heck a lot of the younger Americans don't even know the meaning of a bunch of our own Holidays. It's sad!
You: "Japan doesn't necessarily hate Ryuji and Kanji"
Also you: "Why is Yosuke #1 in Japan while Ryuji & Kanji are hated?"
Then change the clickbait title
Early Yosuke is great and I could totally see him as my favourite character. It's not like all the character traits mentioned in this video are bad things for westerners.
Yosuke just really falls off when he stops using his brain and starts becoming an open pervert making everybody uncomfortable around him. Maybe Japan's lax culture regarding sexual harrassment and apologist attitude towards behaviours like panty-shots and groping are why the perverted attitude of Yosuke isn't a deal-breaker for the japanese.
(Same with the main charcters/authors of Persona 5 not seeing the dissonance of volunteering Ann as a nude model for Yusuke after she just went through an extremely sexually traumatic part of her life because of Kamoshida).
I always thought that the reason Yosuke was more popular than the other bro characters was because he had more story significance. Like deadass Yosuke almost single handedly steers the murder investigation until Naoto, a literal detective, joins your group. Compare that to Ryuji and especially Kanji and you see where my line of thinking draws to.
Yea Yosuke is actually competent
Not only that, but he steers one of the bad endings as well for entirely understandable reasons.
Dude's running high off emotions sure, but it says a lot when he's throwing facts of the investigation at you, and repeatedly demanding you to elaborate, and your "correct" choices are giving vague answers like "I don't know" or "Something's weird but I don't know what."
As well as how nobody argues against him (including Kanji) until after you stand your ground, *then* Naoto chimes in.
He's the guy that's not only your biggest support, but your biggest challenge too aside from the main antagonist himself. All while still being a good guy at heart.
yosuke hard carries the team in terms of investigation. man could've been a detective if he got some actual detective training
for me he is the best best friend of all persona games
@@izzy1356 Yosuke is a lancer, and he fills the role shockingly well for someone who also is comedic relief
Ryuji's English VA did so much heavy lifting for me, I often wonder if the voice actors have any influence over these popularity polls
Ryuji's JP VA is Miyano Mamoru who is a voice acting legend (comes prepackaged with a ton of fans) AND also is pretty stellar at the role, even if he does bring a slightly different energy, so it probably didn't influence the popularity poll much
@@364-unbirthdays8 they are both my fav VAs respectively!!
I probably wouldn't have like Brosuke as much if it weren't for his kickass VA. Ryuji's was great, too
@@hgyuuuuhj098"absolutely obsessed" "(not generalizing)"
Huh?
Both voice actors are legendary. Max Mittleman is great but so is Miyano Mamuro.I don't think it had to do much with VA.
I'm a german outcast, and I like Kanji the most. He is true to himself with his fashion sense and still does his hobbies, even if they are atypical for his sex.
Kanji's punk style is abandoned in the epilogue in P4G, presumably, if not outright stated, because he no longer feels the need to maintain the facades of what he perceived as "manly" behaviour.
@@FF-tp7qs i mean, he still rocks it, and when I see gap-moe I press like
Same on German + Kanji being my favourite
@@FF-tp7qs thank goodness that shit was retconned in Persona Ultimax! Screw fitting in, my boy Kanji dresses however TF he wants! >:)
@@AquaLantern the epilogue of P4G is set after Ultimax, I'm pretty sure
It's crazy to me that Persona 5 is a game literally about not keeping your head down. It's about making a stand even if it means disrupting things. Yet Ryuji, one of the characters that embodies that most of all is still so disliked over in Japan.
Same with Kanji. Persona 4 is about being true to yourself and embracing what makes you you. But heaven forbid you express it publicly lol. Idk, as someone from the US, both Ryuji and Kanji were instant favorites for me.
Japanese are hypocrites
I remember on the former Super Best Friends Cast, that Pat had brought up the value dissonance for P5 in game, and I didn't really understand what he was getting at at the time, but I got it now that it's been explained what exactly that is.
Was about to say exactly this.
I suppose some people play for the waifus and are too dense to understand the social critique the games bash your head with.
The majority, it seems.
Like said in the video and in comments, it's not that he is disliked. He is not the favorite, it's simple. Let's say you make a list of your 5 favorite foods. If you put apple in 5th place, it means you dislike apple? No, it's just not your top favorite. It's not hard to understand.
@KR555 FAIZ but, if I put apple at 5th place, it does mean I dislike apple compared with every choice above it.
Anyways, I do get your point. Totally fair. I'm just speaking more about comparative dislike, I know these characters aren't despised or anything.
Being "clueless" in social situations can in the West be seen as endearing in a way, giving an impression that person is good at being their authentic self even in situations others buckle to social pressures. But I can see how such a trait can be seen as annoying to those with a more collectivist outlook. It's interesting to think about.
As someone who lives in the US I think we need a bit of their collectivist mindset
i think US culture is more just revolt against the "big culture" People dont want to be unique individually. They want to be a normal member of a unique group.
@@dream6562 Individualism needs to be tempered with teamwork or it'll become narcism, and collectivism needs to be tempered with a health sense of self identity, lest you become a doormat.
@derpfluid variant091 idk I'd say how things are going here in the US we already let individualism go too far
If you exhibit oblivion in the US, people tend to assume you're some innocent and pure soul. It's definitely better than being considered annoying, but at the end of the day, what I actually am is neurodivergent 😪
I just think it's crazy that Japan looks at Ryuji's character arc and says "Yeah, the story about the delinquent with an abusive father who actually decides that the best way to live is to NOT be a compliant brick in the wall or at best, not be beholden to those who try to shame me into taking responsibility for things that are literally not my fault, but I'm going to get mad at him anyway!" It's astounding and very confusing.
I think part of the reason why Ryuji's so loved in the West is because Max Mittleman's VA direction completely changes the direction for his character. Instead of being an intentionally annoying and grating butthead (see the comparisons between JP Ryuji and EN Ryuji when Operation Maidwatch comes up) comes off as both a jaded kid who's down on his luck and a complete loveable goofball. Truly the bestest of boys, which is why I made a video about him :p
Yeah the localization I think did a good job with ryuji.
@@starmaker75 persona 4 and 5 (i haven't played any of the other games) have really good english localizations for almost all of the characters imo
Ryuji is still incredibly frustrating and annoying throughout the story. The dude got so hyped from being a Phantom Thief and NEVER shut up about no matter where they were.
Also he was an utter dick to Morgana and only realized his crappy behaviour after Morgana is beaten by Haru's fiance.
And the coward bailed on Maidwatch. At least Yosuke stuck through with their plans of picking up chicks. Even if it ended in utter disaster.
@@FireTalon24 To be honest, Morgana was calling Ryuji pathetic for a very long time. Regardless of whether Morgana was right or not, the moment when Ryuji called Morgana "useless" after getting called that himself for a long time at that point of the game, Morgana instantly got very pissed and left the Phantom Thieves. In contrast, Ryuji was called "useless" by Morgana, every time he missed an attack for sometime. Did you ever see Ryuji complain about it and bail out of the team for it? No, he didn't. Morgana was having a inferiority complex ever since Futaba/Oracle became a team member to be fair, but it seems like he couldn't take his medicine once Ryuji finally fought back for once. Also Morgana was being a creep (or simp) for Ann, which seems pretty uncomfortable to look at (in my opinion). The point is: Morgana has a crappy behavior as well, just like Ryuji. I guess it's up to preference. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@FireTalon24 Regarding Morgana, i think Ryuji's just countering what Morgana did to him. Morgana tend to called Ryuji stupid, musclehead, or something similar whenever he can. But when Morgana's having a hard time regarding Palace Exploration & his position got changed after Futaba joined, that's what trigger Morgana's inferiority complex especially after Ryuji keeps praising Futaba & calling Morgana "useless". For this 1, i have to defend Ryuji's attitude. Morgana definitely got what he deserve...
But what i totally agree with you, 1 of few reasons about what makes me dislike Ryuji is how he got his head SO BIG regarding being PT that makes me sick... He becomes arrogant & can't shut up about the achievements that the TEAM got...
And another thing as for why i dislike Ryuji is that he tends to start a fight against anyone that's on his way purposefully or not, and that's too stupid. It's like Atlus wants to make Kanji 2.0 but failed quite miserably.....
I think this is why Atlus make his Social Link very useful for Mementos/Palace Exploration, they know Ryuji can be a hit or miss
Value’s Dissonance really does make a difference in how well liked anime, video games and characters are in different parts of the world.
I think that plays into why Dragon Ball Z is so loved in the West because while Goku does fight to protect his loved ones, the show presents his accomplishments as his own (do keep in mind that DBZ came to west before DB). And it explains why "The power of friendship" is so heavily memed on in the west.
@@J-manli it only came before for you english people, everyone else got the chance to experience pre Z series i'm pretty sure
Pretty sure DragonBall was dubbed after the cell saga ended ...at least I think that's what happened.
@@J-manli no Goku was well liked in the west because his character was Americanized as he became a Superman knockoff in the original Funimation and ocean dub of Dragonball
@@J-manli DBZ is also extremely loved in Japan tho.
A few years ago Jump did a "best manga of all time" poll in japan and DBZ still came on top after all these years.
Also bear in mind that the popularity of DBZ per people in the country is higher in spain and france, countries that got DB before DBZ and without a dub that bucthers the dialogs and the music to "westernise" them like the american one.
I think about this sometimes. Ryuji as a character always felt like he appealed specifically to the Western audience more than any other character because the way he acts seems really in line with a western ideal of freedom and rebellion.
Like, more than anyone in the series, Ryuji doesn't conform to what society tells him to do or even what those around him tell him to do. Case and point his social link being about him learning that fitting in isn't required through his backstory. Considering that Japan as a culture doesn't look fondly on this kind of idealism, it's easy to see how Ryuji comes off as a massive asshole there, as opposed to the west where he's very much a sympathetic underdog. Not to mention being open and even a little bit rude is a bit more charming here.
Same is true in reverse though, I can imagine other characters are less popular because those in the west don't look kindly on certain values. I admit I look at Japanese culture sometimes and realize I would absolutely detest living there.
One of the reasons I believe the good rebel is so revered in the West is rooted in Christianity. Jesus, as portrayed in Christian doctrine, was executed by a well-organized yet cruel system. This has contributed to the prevailing notion that to be good, one must rebel against such evil systems. Consequently, there exists a moral obligation to rebel, exemplified in cultural icons such as Captain America in 'The Winter Soldier'
Ryuji was fighting for justice against impossible odds even before he met the PT. He is the best.
Naoto did that too though, thats like her whole thing.
because ryuji never ever get the meaning of the saying : 'discretion is the better part of valor'
Fighting for justice is also a big nono in Japan. Just bow your head and do as you're told
@@HitBoxMaster By that logic Japan literally wouldn't of liked the whole of p5 cause rebellion is one of the main themes.
@@projectmessiah the difference is that the PT did it secretly, Ryuuji didn’t flow with that, he wanted to be recognized and assert his value to the world, which in a collectivist culture is a big no no. You’re supposed to understand your own value based on how well society sees you, not how you perceive yourself, a rather twisted perception of humbleness if you ask me.
Honestly i think the most relatable characters for me would be Kanji and Ryuji
Im from Mexico and perfomance in school is a pretty important thing for parents but i like the rebellion that Kanji and Ryuji bring, not conforming with societal expectetions is awesome
not only that but ryuji also wants to others to stand up
I'm from Texas and Ryuji's very relatable to me because he represents a type of social rebellion that is not as glorified in my home state as media might have people believe: Pursuing one's own strengths and standing up to arrogant authority figures.
The US likes to pretend that it's a meritocracy, but SO many figures in power do not actually deserve to be where they are. And yet, heaven forbid anyone actually question them.
While there are certainly differences, and the two *can* certainly improve a lot by learning from each others' cultures, I posit that Japan and the US *also* have many, very similar social problems.
@@Canido19 preach brother 👏
Agreed. I love Kanji and Ryuji. They don’t deserve the shit they get.
7:35 -- 7:52 On the other hand, our sense of family is strong and I'm willing to bet that no Mexican parent worth their salt would allow this kind of thing. After all, we're all about taking care of one another, especially the eldest and youngest in our homes.
Tbh I always thought Yosuke was one of the most relatable and chill party members out of the P3-5 cast. He is Yu's most reliable ally and stuck with him through thick and thin. He's responsible enough to manage both his job at Junes and his work with the Investigation Team. Hell, it's because of him that a lot of events and meetings between the group happen. It was also Yosuke who kept Yu's head-in-the-game after what happened to Nanako. He's flawed, but in a way that is typical for teenage boys. It also helps that, to an extent, players usually sympathize with Yosuke because the other characters (especially Chie) treat him like a butt monkey and it's (usually) undeserved. If there was a dude I can be friends with IRL, it WOULD be Yosuke.
With that said, Kanji is actually my favorite male out of P4 because I find him sympathetic and adorable. He's not traditionally attractive, but underneath his tough exterior is just a teddy bear. But I also understand how his character type, especially at the beginning, isn't that appealing to Japanese fans.
I can say the same about Ryuji. Who is actually my least favorite of the "bro" male characters.
Ryuji, to me, was REALLY annoying throughout P5. I like him just fine and think he's funny (thanks to his Eng VA). But there were moments throughout P5 where I wanted to put tape on his mouth. I don't think it was because he was loud, but more because he was really arrogant. This was intended by the narrative and the Okumura arc was supposed to be when Ryuji gets humbled due to his mistakes. But I think the writing really fumbled there because it didn't really feel like Ryuji changed that much, especially by P5 Strikers.
Of course I am biased because I do find P5's cast to be kind of irritating. I love them just as much as everyone else, but the narrative really wanted you to be on the side Phantom Thieves that it didn't allow room for nuance (in my opinion.) So sometimes the thieves came off as naive at best and dangerously arrogant at worst. So my opinion about Ryuji is based on not just him, but on Persona 5's main cast as a whole.
Yea I get that. P5 has the weakest cast for me for the same reasons. Everyone seems to be really arrogant and looking for clout more than any clear goal for most of the game. I think this is why so many people say Kamoshidas arc was the best one in the game because it felt like they actually cared. They knew what they wanted and had a clear passion for their justice. But every palace after that felt like something they just happened to step into and only pursued because there were consequences if they didn't. The only exception being Futabas palace, though even that one started because they were being blackmailed and only became genuinely riteous after finding out the truth of Alibaba.
I'm biased cause p5 was my first persona game and I fell in love with it, but I honestly loved the bigger scale their story is on. You're probably right about the arrogance thing, but they wanted to make a difference in society. I can see how it would be so easy to get caught up in all of it, like ryuji does.
Speaking of ryuji tho, your comment about Yosuke and ryuji being annoying is my exact opposite feelings. I read a comment that was along the lines of, "most people feel more sympathy towards ryuji rather than yosuke when the story both abuses them is because often times for Yosuke it's sort of instant karma." Which is so true for me, while I do like yosuke a lot, he's done so many (ultimately harmless but exceptionally annoying) things to his very own friend group - misogynistic and homophobic comments being the key. Ryuji, a lot of the time is the butt of the joke... Because. I'm definitely not saying he doesn't do similar things at times, but it's never as bad as Yosuke, and it's usually not towards his friends (except for Ann I guess). Maybe I'll just never get over how badly yosuke treats kanji for being potentially gay, and how he acts towards being seen as gay himself when he never got that romance route to complete that as a character arc for him.
@@Alex_Barbosa They most certainly did not pursue all of the other palace rulers because of the consequences.
With Madarame they all felt bad for Yusuke and actually wanted to take down Madarame because he was using his students as art slaves. They were infiltrating the palace before Madarame threatens them.
It's true for the Kaneshiro palace. They only did that because Makoto was forcing them to.
Futaba's is different. Alibaba did blackmail them at first but then said the deal was off and they still pursued the palace anyway.
Okumura's palace was not for the consequences. It was because Ryuji wanted attention.
You're right about the Sae Niijima palace. They did that because Akechi blackmailed them.
Shido, Yaldabaoth, and Maruki were all targets because they actually had their hearts in it though. They all opposed everything those 3 stood for.
So we have 6/9 palaces that their hearts where in it. Only 2 of them were done because of blackmail. And 1 was because of half blackmail and half of them wanting to save Futaba.
Hard agree with the flaws of p5 you mentioned TBH. Even in Royal, during the final palace where they were all talking back to Maruki saying how its not right for people to come back to life, I couldn't stop thinking about what the people who had died would feel, perishing once more. I'm surprised the game chose NOT to explore that. Sure, we have Akechi, but he doesn't speak for everyone in this case- and what about Shiho? Wouldn't SHE want a world where she wasn't SA'd? Why don't we get to hear what she thinks? Who is Ann to speak for her in her segment against Maruki? While we would have reached the same conclusion eventually, I would really have appreciated this sort of thing. Though Royal IS definitely the most nuanced segments of P5 overall and I really enjoyed it.
@@364-unbirthdays8 They were never saying it wasn't right for people to come back to life.
They were saying Maruki was wrong for deciding what everyone's lives should be. The entire game is about Freedom vs Control.
Maruki was different from the other palace rulers in that he wanted to control overs for the sake of Utilitarian argument: maximize happiness. The game let's you choose to either side with him for happiness at the cost of freedom, or face the harsh reality of life but regain your future and free will. The game actually does consider Maruki's side of the argument by letting the player spend time with everyone. When you see Ann and Shiho you could decide if you like Maruki's reality.
Saying "how would the dead feel perishing again" isn't an argument because nobody remembers this reality except the PT. They'd just disappear and it's like it never happened. That's why when they fix reality Joker is in prison.
An argument you do make that I actually agree with is that Ann can't speak for Shiho. The game never addresses how the rest of society feels about Maruki's reality, only the PT. But the problem is that only the PT are aware of it. They did sort of selfishly decide they were in the right without considering how others feels, but to be fair to them they didn't even have the option to ask others. We don't hear what Shiho gets to say because she isn't even aware of her SA in this reality. Keep in mind only the PT knew.
But you know who also didn't ask for consent to alter reality? Maruki. He just did it on his own. The PT merely undid his control. So I'd say he's more in the wrong then they are. Maruki doesn't ask for consent from the people, he narcissistsly thinks he knows what's best for everyone. Even after Sumire stops being Kasumi and wants to be Sumire again Maruki will still try to impose his reality onto her and erase her identity. In a text message Yusuke had an artist friend who Maruki turned into an Archer because he struggled with art. The truth is Maruki doesn't care what people feel even more than the PT and he didn't have the right to change reality. He just thought he was right because he tried to remove pain.
People exaggerate P5 and P5R's writing flaws. I'm not even a Persona fan anymore but the way people act like Persona 5 has horrible writing with zero nuance makes me cringe. I feel like when P6 comes out people will say it's the worst media they ever experienced and then claim P5 was a philosophical masterpiece that should be studied in school.
You said it's the most nuanced part of P5 but I get the feeling you didn't even pay attention to anything the PT said. It's become a popular opinion to say the 3rd semester is the only good part, but most people who say that don't even say what they like about it. They just parrot other people.
I find it kinda fascinating that, from what I understood, Ryuji is so unpopular because he acts out of line with the societal norms and values, specifically because Persona 5 is all about that aspect of its characters and is kind of a celebration of it. You’d think that in the context of rejecting societal pressures and rules, Ryuji, the guy who fights against those the most, would be very popular.
I bet Ryuji would be popular with Portuguese people. We tend to be pretty loud and boisterous, but like friendly and sociable people. Hard work is also appreciated. I'm not active in the fandom, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Ryuji - who's outspoken, wild but still a good friend - would be well-liked.
I'm Brazilian(i know you probably mean Portugal by saying Portuguese but still) and yeah, Ryuji it's pretty much the type of guy that would probably be popular or have a lot of friends/be seen as a cool guy.
Between the main persona-bros my favorite is Yosuke, but my actual favorite is Yusuke Kitagawa because he's kinda relatable in a lot of ways to me and he's also cool.
As a Canadian, I feel like the reason a lot of us find Ryuji and Kanji so appealing is because we actually value informality as a signifier of closeness. As such we're comforted by the fact that they feel comfortable enough to be informal with us.
it's funny because while I can relate to all of them on some level, Yosuke is my undisputed favorite, because he's the one whose anxieties I can understand most. A lot of his outward personality is inherently performative. He's a good son and manager, not be cause he wants to be, but because if he isn't it's going cause people to judge him. He gets a scooter not because he particularly wants one or uses it a lot (he still rides his cruddy bike to school) but because he thinks having one will make him look cool and get attention. The thing he makes fun of Chie and Yukiko about is that they don't perform to their social expectations, etc...
Even his homophobic tendencies seem to be performative. Whenever anything not exactly 100% straight cishet normative even kind of looks like it's associated with him, he freaks out. But you can make Yu do all sorts of definitely gay things and he'll just roll with it, as long as he's not participating. And while that frustrates me, it also makes so much sense. Because of course Yosuke is constantly worried about how that looks, how people might see him if he's ever seen as queer. Being in Inaba, with its constant gossiping housewives who already hate him for being connected to the Junes, he can't emotionally handle any more public scrutiny, and it makes him kind of awful. But being around Yu who doesn't judge him for every little thing, who's seen the worst of him and been "meh, it's alright, bro" makes him an overall better person, and will continue to.
Wow, that is a great comment! And pretty sad, because it reminds me of my habit of seeking people's attention and having to "comply" with social norms so I will not stand out too much. Add to that an obsession towards their reputation that people in my country have and you have the worst combination ever imaginable. x)
I think the camping tent scene comes as worse to me because it's obvious he's being performative there, considering literally right before he started talking crazy, he was complaining that he had no space to sleep. His antics then gave him the space he wanted, because he got Kanji to leave. So it's homophobia with a set goal in mind, rather than homophobia for the sake of it.
@@xiniti8185 yeah that's true. It gets really messed up. It's one of those character things I think he has a lot to work on, but it does make him more interesting to me
@@xiniti8185 It is a bizarre perspective where people try to define Yosuke as acting offensive. If you watch the tent scene, Yosuke is actually accepting of Ryujji as a friend and talks to him genuinely. It is literally Ryujii who gets angry and threatening. Sorry, what exactly is Yosuke supposed to be doing exactly? We want him to be open and accepting of Ryujii and yet at the exact same time not talk about obvious things and be totally in denial about what is happening? What a stupid and insane standard to have for someone who is a bystander to the person actually having the self crisis who is in denial. The only reason YU passes that ridiculous criteria is because he is a silent protagonist.
@@Tenshi6Tantou6Rei I feel like another reason why he acts the way he does is simple. Society at the time would have done or even said far more worse things then Yosuke did. Because at the time it was acceptable to judge someone because they were either Bi or gay or even into what was considered feminine activities due to it being drilled into people's mind that liking anything other than the opposite sex was bad and would damn your soul.
Hell even now the older crowd in Japan is still against same sex relationships and only recently have some started to change their viewpoints after it grew to such a boiling point that it was brought into the justice systems hands, where some parts of Japan are now considering it unjust and against basic human rights to deny people happiness.
They're all best boys.
Ironically, it's because the main story script goes way too much out of its way to make Ryuji, Kanji and Junpei the butts of every joke / moronic-statement-spouting-machines that I ended up liking them more.
Yosuke is also the butt of every joke. Dude gets robbed, beaten down, etc. Constantly. It's brutal how much he gets abused by his friends considering he's probably the smartest one in the group besides Naoto lol
@@Alex_Barbosa i mean yosuke is the one that carries the investigation before naoto joins the team
Junpei became my favorite character when I played FeMC in the original P3P. He still goes through the petty jealousy arc and gets some sexist lines thrown in, but his SLink with female protag has him being a total bro who doesn't pursue the MC romantically (I know there's a deleted end scene with him, but still...). I wish he was the Magician link for the male MC as well. I would have loved to see what that would have been like, even if it was the kind of link that could only be progressed at certain points in the story.
@@conspiracypanda1200 I've always really disliked Junpei. I'm actually excited to play P3R to see if I'd like him more now that I'm older and appreciate more nuance.
@@Alex_Barbosa this type of humor honestly just irritates me just like what happened in P5 after shidos palace and ryuji got beat by the girls after literally saving all of them
Man, Kanji is just the goat. It's kinda wild to me that people don't like him that much.
When done well the "tough on the outside but soft on the inside" trope just lands so well on me for some reason. I love seeing them work through it and slowly start to open up to others, it's super cathartic. That also explains why Sojiro is my favorite character in P5.
I love Kanji, just wish they'd stop him from picking fights all the damn time lol
Yeah, Kanji and Sojiro are my favorites, too! I can't get enough of that "I'm gonna pretend to be tough and not care, but if anyone needs my help I will drop everything to help them" bit.
I'd say that Yosuke is my favorite Persona character overall. For starters I just find him relatable as the typical "cool loser", but he's surprisingly multifaceted. As mentioned in the video he's one of the smarter characters and has a good work ethic (never considered that until now).
I think my favorite aspect, however, is just how much he values Narukami as a friend, even willing to "brawl out" his insecurities. To me he's the bro-est of the bros.
Even as an outsider looking in on Japanese society/culture it seems most (going off these polls and the reasons you outline) Japanese fans of the Persona series are missing a key piece to Ryuji.
Persona 5 Royal has a significant thematic current of mental health going through it. Each of the party members has a clearly diagnosable mental health issue you see come to the front at times during their confidant especially when they see Maruki. To identify only two it's pretty clear that Yusuke has Stockholm Syndrome while Futaba's whole arc is her overcoming Agoraphobia. This brings me back to Ryuji...
He's been abused by a father figure, been abused by a sadistic coach, is turned into a pariah for finally standing up for himself, had his dream of being a professional track runner completely crushed and never seems to get any appreciation or credit when he does something right. It's a bit of a running gag but Ryuji's desire to say out loud that he's one of the Phantom Thieves actually indicates that he has a major inferiority complex, which typically manifests in aggressive behavior (which is absolutely one of Ryuji's prominent characteristics). A person can only take so much disdain, dismissal and be downtrodden so much before they finally snap and effectively yell "____ it" to the society that let them down.
This is another reason why the girls beating Ryuji up after he saves them all in Shido's Palace is so shockingly tasteless. The boy has a history of domestic abuse for goodness sake.
I completely agree.
"This is another reason why the girls beating Ryuji up after he saves them all in Shido's Palace is so shockingly tasteless. The boy has a history of domestic abuse for goodness sake."
yeah but he insulted the girls and said their crying wasn't cute or something when they were genuinely worried for him. He was being tasteless so he deserved it (not being serious this just seems to be the excuse). Like the video says, not being able to read the room (this being a situation where he was probably trying to defuse the drama with humor, but the girls didn't like that. Much like a lot of us are sick of "Marvel movie humor").
I think there's a much better way to explain Yusukes situation than "Stockholm syndrome" I'm pretty sure there have been studies showing that's not a real thing, and the situation it gets it's name from was not even an example of what the term describes.
@@adamzielke3541Yeah, for the East, social faux pas are always worse than whatever traumas or struggles an individual may suffer... Which is a hypocritical view to maintain in P5 because a majority of the story is all about how horrible it is that the cultural expectation to shut up and conform correctly often forces victims to suffer silently under their abusers! To the point such suffering can eventually kill them, even!
@@conspiracypanda1200 and also why a friend who suffered heavy cultural shock when she lived in japan, said that it's the land of hypocrisy
I honestly don't think Yosuke and Kanji are quote "hated". As since it's a popularity poll, the others ranked above them are simply more appealing to Japan when it comes to relatability and taste.
Ryuji and Kanji honestly are born in the wrong country as they'd definitely fit in the West as their personalities are more American for better or worse. Ryuji even says he is "an LA guy like a total gangsta."
Ryuji'd get one whiff of Venice beach and be scared, and I would laugh.
Dude absoloutely throws hands lmao
Yusuke doesn't clearly understood western folks have blonde hair, so he and Ann can get along in a western school.
He even said in a drama cd, that he had blonde hair and can often be mistaken as a foreigner to which Ren agreed.
I think I relate most to Yusuke. He’s socially awkward, flamboyant, a lover of the arts, and he’s great at it too. I just love how despite being socially awkward he can be very sweet. I just relate to him that way because he’s able to do the things I can’t. It’s like yeah he can come off as odd a lot of times, but that oddness is genuine to him. He’s able to be himself in public despite what other people might think and I love that about him. Not caring that if he were to do weird things (in the eye of the public) like pose in a church for the sake of his art and inspiration or ride a boat ride made for lovers with another boy, he would be looked at weird. He doesn’t seem to care about that, and I aspire to be that open like him tbh. Definitely goes against the values in Japan according to this video, but it’d be so cool to be like Yusuke. I’m an America man btw.
Out of all the persona bro characters Junpei was always my favorite for his personality and story and that he reminds me of a lot of people I've met and got on with in my personal life. Yosuke is a close second for being a really well written flawed guy which makes him pretty realistic and someone who I can relate too when it comes to both his good and bad aspects.
3:33 I was in Japan for a few months over the summer when my father was working there in 2017, and I distinctly remember being on an early morning train, and standing next to a group of men sitting down. One younger man answered his phone and started talking and the people next to him immediately turned to stare, the younger boy on his right looked horrified. Another time I was riding at night and a man was eating a sandwich, which caused the older man next to him to look scandalized. As someone who lived in New York and braved it's subways for many years, the cultural difference was really noticeable, compared to how consistently inconsiderate people tend to be on the New York Subway lol.
This was such an interesting video it's so fascinating to learn more about cultural differences! I moved to America when I was really young so there definitely is dissonance with my parents who grew up in a more collectivist society, while I was raised in a more individualistic one.
I'd say my favorite male party members in the Persona games I've played are Yosuke and Yusuke. I'm still finishing persona 3. I was born in China but I was raised in America. :)
I've only played P5 and P5R to completion, and I've gotta say that Ryuji was the main party member I could connect with. I think the EN voice actor did a great job with him, portraying Ryuji as a goofball. And if you peel back that outer layer of goofiness and delve into the personal arc that Ryuji has, you find that he really does care for those around him. He's not the greatest at showing it all the time, but I think that adds to his charm.
I'm from the U.S. by the way.
Not great with words, but essentially risking his life in the blink of an eye in the last palace, that speaks volumes.
I loved P5, but honestly loved P4 golden even more. I wholeheartedly recomend it.
I’m from Australia and Ryuji is definitely a favourite here. We have a word, “larrikin”, that perfectly describes Ryuji. Loud, boisterous, but fun and a joy to be around.
The only flaw with Ryuji from my Aussie perspective is that sometimes it feels like he _wants_ to be caught just so he can be acknowledged more. It kinda sets off the "tall poppy syndrome" alarm and is unfair to the rest of the group that keeps reminding him to be subtle or else the whole operation will be ruined. It's not a dealbreaker, of course, but Australians value the concept of "fairness" almost like how Americans value the concept of "freedom". Ryuji can and should be as rough and loud and proud of his achievements as he likes, but when he repeatedly and sometimes _publically_ jeopardises the Theives' secrecy after being warned so many times to keep quiet...I kinda feel like reaching through the screen and clipping him behind the ear!
My biggest issue with Ryuji was how unnecessarily mean he was to Morgana when Morgana was at his most emotionally vulnerable.
@@FF-tp7qs Morgana was also mean to him though. It always went both ways.
@@jackflynn412 Ryuji was on a whole different level. He was just tactless.
@@FF-tp7qs True but I think Morgana was petty about it too. He always called him stupid any second he got the chance.
I actually love how the anime handles it where they have a more heartfelt apology to each other. Ryuji sounds deeply sincere about saying Morgana is his friend but in the game that doesn't happen. It's one of the very few things the anime handled better. I think the only other thing the anime did better was show Akechi go out of his way to forge a friendship with Ren. He even helped with the Futaba's Uncle situation.
Yosuke is probably my favorite character in Persona 4. It always felt like if the silent protagonist wasn't there Yosuke could easily have been the protagonist of the story himself.
Talking about cultural differences and things like values dissonance is something I wish was more common in conversations about jrpgs, because it really does change how characters and overall stories are viewed from culture to culture, especially in the SMT/Persona franchise. Thank you for explaining these things and providing examples! Also, thanks for mentioning the westernized stigma of fujoshi/fudanshi!
I think I relate to Junpei the most and he is one of my favorite Persona characters. I get his whole running away from responsibility and acting as a class clown to avoid serious stuff even though he's got a lot of negative things in his mind (ie his alcoholic father therefore not having a positive family outlet). And then his power that makes him a "superhero" then thinks he's not good enough or useless because he thinks it's going to be taken away is something I think most people feel especially when they have feelings of inferiority and jealousy towards someone else or others as a whole. I think his serious moments make a striking and impactful change to his self-centered and nonchalant self. It's honestly a shame that Junpei isn't really popular at all because he's the one of the funniest characters and very well-written imo. Hopefully this converts more people to the Junpei Iori gang.
Finally, someone gets it. There's nothing more I could really add to this since it's spot on.
I've never heard the "fujo bait" dismissiveness with Yosuke... but I've DEFINITELY heard it with Akechi. Every time Akechi scores high in polls I see people ranting about fujos, often verging into homophobic taunts. With Yosuke... weirdly despite it being clear he was going to be a romance option in early development, I never considered that in why he's popular in Japan. Like you, I just thought Japan had more reasons to dislike Ryuji and Kanji.
On a related note though, I've noticed most Japanese gaming magazine polls have a majority of women respondents, while the opposite is vastly true for western polls. I don't know if it's something about Japan culturally that makes women more likely to answer polls, or if men self-identify as woman when responding. (In Bubbletea's poll video's comments, I saw a woman mention that she lists her gender as male online to avoid female-targeted ads, I wonder if there's a case of the opposite in Japan?)
"Never talking on your cell phone on a train", that just takes me back to a skit from an Australian satirical show I watched as a teen. "He's on the bus and train! His phone calls are a pain! He's Clive, the Slightly-Too-Loud-Commuter!"
3:32 Interesting to have smoking so comparatively low on this list, I've noticed Japan tends to be more lax on smoking.
During my high school Japan trip, where we stayed for a week at a Japanese school, I definitely remember the after school cleaning. Funny how that's "skipped over" in Persona, but I guess it wouldn't be fun to play through that.
Kanji's arc was tackling "toxic masculinity" before westerners were even calling it that (one of his Shadow's attacks literally inflicts Poison on males), which definitely resonates more overseas. I've noticed Japanese media, particularly shounen-tinted ones, often DOES emphasize "being a real man" (it's done a couple of times with Randy and Lloyd in Trails from Zero/Azure) but what it portrays as "manly" are things like "protecting the people you care about", i.e very collectivist.
Junpei is and probably always will be my favourite "bro" character, but he's interesting from the perspective of this discussion because he exhibits a lot of the negatives you ascribe to Kanji and Ryuji: loud, irresponsible, obnoxious, self-important... except they're treated as actual CHARACTER FLAWS for his arc and he eventually develops out of them. This makes him the most grounded and relatable of the "bros" to me. Though I also really like Kanji, for different reasons.
Yosuke is my least favourite "bro", but not for any of the typical reasons. It's just that I think his comedy scenes either go way too far with his abuse (the girls spending his money on Teddie's clothes, bike destroyed, hit in the crotch twice in one day) or just aren't funny to begin with (the tent scene, hot springs, Morooka river vomit). A lot of western fans hate Ryuji's "butt of jokes" moments but I never minded most of them. The problem I had with Yosuke is when he's serious he's a pretty decent character, but he spends about 85% of the story "wasted" on bad comedy tropes. Meanwhile I'd say Ryuji is only abused for comedy 40% of the time at worst?
Meanwhile Ryuji is a solidly "mid" character for me. He's okay, just not a standout compared to the rest of the party. It doesn't help that the way I play P5 (I use a lot of Baton Pass and Technical) I get much more out of Yusuke as a combat member. Ryuji's a better tank but when I play, most enemies don't last long enough to hit me back, and Yusuke's Baton Pass boosted physicals do a lot more than All Out Attacks most of the time.
I also think Ryuji just matches up with western cultural perceptions of rebels against society and appeals to Persona 5's western fanbase that way. And it's led to a lot of accusations that Japan "missed the point" of P5 somehow even though the game was made for them first and the director never expected it to have western appeal. That could be an interesting discussion someday: how Japan interprets P5's themes of "rebellion". (Maybe going into why SMT's Chaos alignment isn't as popular over there)
Thanks for covering this topic, the polls are always a goldmine of cultural clashes.
I think the "fujo bait" thing for Yosuke in particular is more common in Japan. It seems to have died down a lot since P5 has been the new kid on the block for a while, but the fujo misogyny thing was big on JP internet around the mid-late 2000s, so you can only guess what people were saying... :/ Like players still like Yosuke, but they don't appreciate all these "fujos" shipping him with Yu.
Though I also get it must be frustrating for LGBTQ+ in Japan to have the bait/tease there, but not have the option yet again for a game.
and yeah the "fujo" thing for Akechi seems to be more pronounced in the West imo than in Japan (though it certainly exists there, I mean, the word fujoshi originates from there for a reason 😅) But I think that has more to do with Yosuke being more likeable as a character/person to a Western audience vs. Akechi's background not being quite understood by a non-JP audience, so there's less empathy and/or sympathy for him abroad. That's just some of what I've noticd though.
and yeah I dunno why women are more likely to answer surveys. Just based on my own personal experience, I've found women in fandom circles more engaged in general. Like more willing to do stuff (make art, songs, etc.) for the community, support other creators works, etc. and I wonder if willingness to *spend time* to actually answer polls plays into that... this is mostly just anecdote though btw.
I feel like there are just less girls playing games in the West compared to Asia. A lot of the women seem to have hopped into gaming from FTP mobile games and MMOs in the 2000s-2010s (mobile gaming never took off here like it did in Asia, and what I mean by that is Western publishers don't do gacha style model games). I think only recently more women are being introduced to games in countries like U.S. Especially JRPGs for so many reasons. All of these things are such vastly nuanced topics, it's really hard to talk about it completely in a single comment section on YT lmao.
I can understand not being a fan of Yosuke based on the writing in the gag scenes/comedy!
I'm glad Kanji is a character that resonates with so many people abroad. Many Asian countries are undoubtedly influenced by Western media/marketing over the many decades, so it's not like Western ideals of masculinity aren't slowly seeping into the culture, but as I said in the video, the "ideal man" in Japan behaves very differently from big, tough, macho dudes in the first place.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the dudes Klingy! Always great hearing from ya
I’m a bit confused why ppl would accuse P5 of missing the point just cuz of one character (Ryuji). Could you clarify why that might be the case?
@@ma.2089
I think OP is arguing that the JP audience is missing the point of P5's message with their dislike of Ryuji not the game in of itself.
Yeah. Can't say I'm fond of Akechi or Yosuke myself, but the dismissive and aggressive attitude some people have towards 'fujoshis' are pretty concerning. I'm sure the yaoi paddlers exist, but a lot of BL or pretty boy appreciators aren't too weird about it.
I actually do agree with the assessment that the Japanese pollers who might bash Ryuji “missed the point” but it’s not because the game was meant for Western audience. It was definitely created for a Japanese audience first and an overseas audience second but the whole idea of He phantom thieves was that they were not supposed to be seen as likable people on the surface but as good when you actually get to know them. You are a criminal convict, Ryuji’s reputation has been ruined by kamoshida, Ann is seen as trashy for pursuing a relationship with her teacher. Obviously all of these were misunderstandings but it still doesn’t help you deal with Kamoshida’s abuse when everyone else judges you for being a bunch of terrible students with groupthink mentality preventing anybody else in our school from seeing the real picture (outside of characters like Mishima)
This is in the same way that those Japanese pollers share the same opinions on Ryuji as the school does. They fall into the same exact camp of people the game is trying to criticize which makes it seem that they are completely tone deaf to the games message, although the game is supposed to be social commentary on Japanese culture.
My favorite is probably always gonna be Junpei. He went thru so much growth. If i had to pick someone else though, I always found Eikichi deeply hilarious but tragic. Hes such a commentary on diet culture etc. and as someone with an ED that always got me, bc i recall being forced into thst stuff myself from a young age. Him being this chubby kid at first and how gentle but firm he grows to be, then how scrappy he becomes... I just love seeing him grow as a character.
That’s a really interesting perspective on Eikichi that I hadn’t considered. I focus more on his makeup and such, but yeah his whole appearance is a big part of his character, including his physical body.
@@serenepastel I honestly think the makeup helps his body image issues. Confidence etc.
Yosuke is comedic material and he's a relatable character. He got rejected by the girl he likes, he wanted to break the boredom of everyday life (I mean, who doesn't?) and even though he's somewhat of a rich guy (The Prince of Junes) he's so humble.
I was actually shocked to see that Akihiko wasn't as popular in Japan as in the West. He was my favorite and I thought it was weird that I saw more western fanarts than japanese, now I know why. Also, I love Ryuji and Kaiji, and here in Mexico being loud it's super common, so I always found them more endering or didn't think of it. Instead being shy or having good grades isn't as cool as it is in Japan.
I think my favorite male party member is Yosuke tbh! I was born and raised in Scotland but moved to the States at the start of my teenage years.
I think the states is also a more extreme type of an individualistic society. The UK is also individualistic, especially when compared to countries with Confucianist values but there is an emphasis on manners and being mindful of what you're doing and where you're doing it in the UK which doesn't seem quite as pronounced in the States. I can't say I know enough about other western European or the rest of the Americas to say much more on that though.
Idk, I liked Kanji a lot because even tho he was socially awkward in a way, he was very humble and caring for his peers and never did things in bad faith. Ryuji never grew in me because his struggles just didn't connect with me and his character is a bit superficial and feels more like he was put there to fill the role as the MC's sidekick. Yosuke was great for me because more than self depricating i think he is aware of his flaws and is capable of coming to terms with them. Yosuke really comes full circle when he admits that he was jealous of Yu despite him not really showing sings of it during the game.
As an Asian (from Hong Kong), I personally don't hate any main casts from P3-P5, but I understand why some people dislike them or even hate them.
For Kanji, it's just people prefer other characters than him. In P4, I like Yosuke the most, but Kanji's S Link is better than many other characters' (including Yosuke's) IMO. Yeah, some people find his temper is unbearable, but most of time his temper came from his shyness, and people around him understand him, so his temper didn't cause a big deal in terms of story telling.
And Kanji is a juniors. He respects his seniors like an ordinary Japanese student.
As for Junpei...
At first, Junpei was jealous of the protagonist who is player's POV. When you have a character kept calling you useless, telling you he's better than you and so on, you would normally get irritable.
But Junpei has obvious character growth, that's why some people change their mind near the end. It's a pity that the impact of the first impression is too deep, and Junpei doesn't look handsome by most people's standard, so he can't stand out.
Ryuji. His situation is complicated.
The main reason is like what you said in video. He was too loud in terms of Asian culture.
To make matters worse, his teammates are all quiet or cerebral, Ryuji is the only character who can play the buffoon.
So, there is a guy who has been scolded two or three times about don’t make noise but still make noise, everyone is already worried about being too famous but that guy still insists on taking action, and in order to find a girl in Hawaii he almost revealed his identity...
Those actions are enough to make some of the players feel disgusted, like he is the only reason the team almost got caught. (which is only half true when it came to Makoto's phone recording)
And the Ryuji-Mona fighting was pouring oil on the flame. If you calm down, you can understand Mona should be the one responsible. But because of the actions I listed above, some people already have bad impression of Ryuji. Therefore "MY CAT IS GONE BECAUSE THAT GUY SAID MY CAT WAS USELESS!" He also had a bad attitude when he tried to apologized (because Ann forced him to)...OK, say goodbye to any Ryuji's good impression built form the first two targets.
And his great sacrifice in Shido's palace is not that impressive (because his action is expected and not surprising). Therefore, some people couldn't find his growth like Junpei.
(Furthermore, his instant-kill in the original P5 is bad enough to make most players don't want to go through his event...)
(And he is not as handsome as Yusuke and Akechi)
(AND he is ALWAYS compared to Yosuke, who is seen as an ideal best friend character in Asian fandom)
(I find that male players like Ryuji more than female players. But when it come to popular vote, most male players prefer voting for their 'wives' instead of their bro.)
Don't get me wrong, I am female and Ryuji is my favorite character in P5 (and Junpei in P3). But I have seen enough comments about why he gets a lot of hate.
I personally don't like the Hawaii part too. But I know he is a great character and a loyal best friend.
This video is about why people hate Ryuji (and Kanji) in Japan so I try to listed what I saw in Chinese and Japanese fandom.
Sorry for my bad English.
Your English is very good! Thank you so much for your insights about all of this!
I also find it hard to dislike any of these characters myself, but it's nice to understand why different people like or dislike certain characters.
Always appreciate hearing from viewers from Asia!
Yosuke is my favorite bro, despite his flaws. That's because, for me, he is the most "believable" and "reliable" boy teen.
"Thanks, partner!"
I'm from the US, but I don't think it's influenced my favorite male party member too much, because it's the (quite controversial) pick of Ken. I was one of those 'gifted'/super precocious kids like Ken is, so I've always felt a connection with that character archetype. Not getting along with people your own age, trying to live up to expectations and pressures, balancing that with interests you might not want to share due to them being too childish and such. Even all the events surrounding October I feel like it's a good character moment, and really shows his growth moving forwards from that.
I usually always keep my first party members in any game
Kanji and Ryuji are my favorite party members from their games so this is a very interesting subject! Great video as always
Amazing video I wish I found this channel earlier, looking forward to binging all your other content
Thank you!! Glad you enjoyed! 🙏
Brosuke is my favorite sidekick in modern Persona.
I'm from the Pacific NW, and have an aunt who is Japanese (my uncle met her while teaching English in Japan).
Idk if the anime counts but after [SPOILERS] is presumed dead, everyone else in the Investigation Team tears up a bit, says their piece, then eventually heads home. As soon as you assume Yu is left alone to morn by himself, you see Yosuke stays behind and is the shoulder for Yu to lean on. That's a real Brosuke right there.
Thanks for this info
It is always interesting seeing the perception of specific characters that is affected not only by personal taste but also the culture you have been grown for all of your life
As an autistic person who was in boarding schools for half my life, I really liked Naoto (I am Jewish American)
I'm Canadian and Ryuji is the best because he is the most open. At the very beginning he is willing to be scared and vulnerable when he first enters the palace. He is so passionate in all his emotions happy and angry and all the others and he is never, ever afraid to show them. He is never hiding how he is feeling. He was so genuinely happy to have a purpose and a friend. Yosuke is not at all a favorite because he is, I guess spineless? He never has real opinions or emotions. Besides he never says no to his work, which I guess here is not a good thing. I mean I enjoy helping a friend but the fact that he keeps asking you to help at work when Junes needs people his shows he can't stand up and make the actual employees work. It also shows what a horribly managed place that is, if on more than one occasion they are so short staffed they need 4 random people to help them out.
I'm from the UK, and have always loved BROsuke. It's kind of hard to explain, but I guess he's always sort of resonated with me. Great video, really enjoyed it
I'm from the UK aswell
Yosuke was always my favorite of the best friend characters (probably top 5 persona characters at all) just cause he felt more like a real character than the other two and since I live in a small town I could relate too his thoughts where as Ryuji never clicked with me he is ok though don’t hate him just not like a favorite of mine
Honestly, my favourite Persona characters would be Ryuji and Akechi. Ryuji really reminds me of the type of friend that is always there no matter what, that always gets into trouble, but never would willingly get you in trouble, and is always there when you need them. That loyalty is something that I respect a lot in people (honestly, I'll admit, I kinda envy how earnest he is, he was simple, he didn't like something, he said it out loud, which is something that I wasn't able to do for a good time in my life). And well, Akechi hits where it hurts in my case, since the whole not being enough, acting as if you had to be someone else in order to be accepted is something I've had to deal since I was a kid, to the point I developed a lot of psychological problems, so, seeing someone go through that was something that at the same time was hard to watch, but also made me feel a lot of sympathy for the character, and it's funny, but his whole change in the third semester mimics my own way of dealing with that problem, so I found myself rooting for him everytime he was pushing forward with his mentality of "What worth there is in living a life concocted by someone else? I say none", as it allowed me to find peace with who I was, and allowed me to stop hiding my anger and frustration, which before I considered impure feelings that only a wicked person would have, and as such, I had to be as vile as those thoughts if I allowed them to flourish, which forced me to shut down those emotions and hurt me quite a lot.
Also, I'm from Spain, Europe, and here there is no big colectivist mentality, but the individualistic values aren't as strong as those in the USA. My main reason to like them comes from the fact I bottled my emotions for years, because I was told to not give the people that caused me pain the satisfaction of knowing that they hurt me, but also that answer only made me downplay how I got hurt and when I couldn't keep it anymore, it hurt a lot more, because the pain had been festering, and it was too much to tackle all at the same time.
I like all three really but I love Yosuke and Kanji more than Ryuji. Likely because while Yosuke is supposed to be comic relief, he is a character who takes charge of the case a lot almost making him the leader more than the main character, and Kanji being someone who wants to be true to himself and no longer wants to push his hobbies away just because people see it as 'girly'.
Ryuji just seems to be comic relief like almost all of the time. He says something, someone (mostly Morgana) calls him an idiot, he gets pissed. Rinse and repeat.
I liked the scene (spoilers) where Ryuji risks his life to save his team mates from dying in the Shido's dungeon, even mentioning his track training showing he still had the skills even with his hurt leg. When it seems he didn't make it everyone devastated. Like yeah, that was our teammate, our friend.
Then they ruin it when Ryuji shows up and the girls beat him up. Like the man can't be taken 100 percent serious at all. Gotta be the butt monkey all the time even when he gets a chance to shine. Sigh...
Yosuke being especially conscious of familial duty is interesting in the context of his (cut) romance arc. Even without sitting down with scripts left in the game of the cut content, Yosuke denying his attraction to Yu and trying to ignore anything at all homosexual fits perfectly with that: as a son he has a duty to continue the family line, after all, so of course he’d run away for feelings that might interfere with that.
I personally feel like this is just some hidden homophobia within Atlas. They cowered away from Yosuke accepting his homosexuality, which goes against the theme of accepting yourself that Persona4 was supposed to be all about. In the future, they could have explored homophobia within Persona5 given how facing injustice is the main theme, but they ran away from it completely, not even having the subtext with specific characters like Persona4. It's a shame, considering Persona5 was made later on in a time period where homosexuality is much more accepted by the general public overall.
@@user-mu1os7me8s Oh absolutely that's why it was cut. But supposing that it hadn't been, I expect that the rest of his scenes until the romance split in his SLink would be mostly the same, meaning he spends most of the game being outwardly homophobic. But that self-loathing/self-denial gains an extra layer when he's so conscious of familial duty.
Also I 100% guarantee you had this been a part of his arc, he’d be lower rated in Japan. Sad but true.
@@user-mu1os7me8s Gotta remember. Stuff like that was accepted by society back then unfortunately. And hell most of the older Japanese crowd still hate anything remotely relating to same sex anything, other than adult content. Hell it took taking things to the justice system just to make the Japanese diet recognize that lgbtq+ people exist and even then it was still worded as if it's a mental illness when it comes to those in power in Japan, with only normal/common younger citizens actually being ok and accepting of people for who they are.
You guys are just straight up ignoring Saki entirely. He likely was never meant to be a gay/bi/questioning character. He's set up liking Saki from the beginning and questioning his and her reasons for being around each other.
This is definitely the most flipped dynamic between east and west
Ryuji is a loudmouth but his courage and passion against injustice is pretty admirable
I think i like Yosuke more than the other boys in p4 and p5 tbh. But i like Akihiko the most and i also like Junpei
i will forever be a defender of the Vulgar Boy Ryuji. He’s always been my fave because he seems so annoying and outspoken when he’s really just ambitious. People also tend to forget that his mom is a big motivation for him even, and he was a successful athlete until he was injured. I just love him so much. He’s a complex character with many layers. Also I’m from the US, but i do have some dial filial piety in my culture, being Mexican.
Yo!!! As a Japanese-American myself, it is SO GOOD to see a youtuber addressing the value dissonance people who cross the cultural divide have to consider every day! I can't tell you how many times things that have seemed like soft givens or touch and go nuanced topics get turned into hammers against people's character to even CONSIDER as nuanced, by people who don't realize that being from different cultures means more than superficial differences. As important it is to remember we're all just people at the end of the day, these differences between 'common sense' or 'basic morality' between cultures can be painful to blunder into and navigate. I really, REALLY appreciate someone whose got a foot in both doors and can give a good digestible go-to for opening up the discussion peacefully. Absolutely subscribing, gonna backwatch all your stuff!
Oh yeah also absolutely, Yosuke and Kanji are my favs in the whole series. They're sharing top spot. Sorry P5, P4 boys got the (2000's Atlas context considered) sauce.
OMG it's so laaaate when I'm seeing this but I have to drop everything to watch it cuz THE LORE! I can't TELL YOU how much I love THE CONTEXT!! Thank you so much! (wibbly eyes ascii art)
It is actually wild that the protagonist is #1 in all of these it’s basically saying “my favorite character is myself”
I'm brazillian, and my favorite persona character is Baofu. I feel like he summarizes the raw reality of becoming an adult. I mean, yeah, the man is cynical and melancholic as hell, but even tho some of us may act different from him, we can all understand where he's comming from.
He's also cool as hell lol
Heck yeah Baofu! Got to love a man with coins as a weapon.
I'm from Colombia, South America.
My favorites are Yusuke and Akihiko. I like that they're both kind of doing their thing not minding everyone else. I love both of their personalities. I don't know if this happens in other countries but I just get bored of the people that are too "normal". I tend to circle around people that are more peculiar so I don't get bored.
I think the male character that i like the most out of the party members from the games i've played so far (Persona 3, persona 3 FES, Persona 4, Persona 4 Golden, Persona 5, and persona 5 Royal) is actually a party member that you don't have in your party for a long time, actually only a couple months or so in game. That character is Shinjiro Aragaki from Persona 3...Playing through the original version i didn't click onto him at first i will admit, BUT when i replayed it, and then when i played Persona 3 FES i started taking more of a note of him. His story line is actually really good, the fact that he lost control and made a huge mistake and has been doing what he can to make up for it while trying his best not to burden ANYONE around him, even the other people who know about what happened is really telling of his character. He helps out a LOT in the dorms, and with the other party members, he essentially takes on a role that he noticed wasn't filled and even helps others learn to better take care of themselves and those around him. He is a truly caring character, his only real fault is that he does everything he can not to depend on others while helping everyone he can without thinking of himself. While this can be a good trait in a lot of situations, it can also be detrimental to a person's own health and well being. He also tends to be a bit too trusting of others depending on the situation. He is a very well thought out and rather deep character, which makes me sad that we don't get to interact with him more. So yeah, Shinjiro Aragaki is my favorite male character that I've interacted with so far in the series. Which makes me rather happy that there's a happy twist for his story line in the FES version and that's all i'm going to say on that matter. As for where i'm from, i'm willing to give a general location. I'm from Texas, in the USA.
I love my boy Ryuji. He first meets Joker and he immediately is friendly to him despite all the rumors and everyone else being cold to you. He's your first friend and will always be your friend no matter what. He's the realist one who doesnt sugar coat. What a beast
Ain interesting discussion! It's always interesting to learn about different cultural values from people who have actually experienced both sides!
Kanji is my favorite btw.
Very informative, it was a subject I was curious about and thank you for providing a sound explanation. and for putting Chihiro in the video! My favorite male party member is easily Yusuke, followed by Akihiko and then Junpei.
Most relatable P Boy? Shinjiro. From? Canada.
Eldest brother among 3 siblings, so I really got in deep with his background sticking up for, protecting, and helping to guide the younger ones. I was always rather tall for my age and fit his body profile, being broad shouldered but not muscled like Aki. And ultimately... I just really felt for his struggle to push through conflicting internal feelings and guilt over things ultimately beyond his control. Speaking as someone neurodivergent... yeah, I know what it feels like to have your conception of reality beat you down consistently.
My most favorite Male Persona Party Member gotta be Katsuya Suou (Tatsuya's Brother) from P2: Innocent Sin.
He's just cool I think.
Amazing video!
I'm from Brazil, my favorite male party member is Akihiko.
I did two playthroughs of Persona 3 to 5, one in English and the other in Japanese, the whole "loudness" and "bragging" aspects where only noticeable to me when I played the games in Japanese.
It's been such a long time since I played any Persona game, but I remember being rather fond of Yosuke because he was relatable to me in terms of a family (though, I guess, Yukiko would be more relatable). I am from Kazakhstan, and people here, too, value giving all for their homes and parents.
But now I see that people really dislike him due to his internalized homophobia, which is understandable, and, well, I guess it would be better if I just don't mention him. xPP
I liked Yusuke, too, I remember. He was aloof, but in a rather charming way. I have always been pretty close to my mother, and every story about a loss of parents really strikes me, while still resonating with me. I really admire that he survived through his abuse and continues to live in spite of all the tragedy in his life.
Thank you for your video, LadyVirgilia. I am a newcomer, but I saw your channel a lot in my feed, and I am thankful that I decided to finally check your work today. I wish you all the inspiration for your next projects!
I learned a lot from this video thanks
This one is so funny to me! Especially the part about Ryuji tending to showboat, given Captain Kidd is literally on a boat.
I live in the US, and I love Ryuji and Kanji. And so do all my friends. We all agree they just feel like lovable guys we would actually be friends with and we could trust with our lives.
Another amazing video!! I really adore the Persona series and it’s my current special interest so researching and seeing videos about little niche things related to it are always very enjoyable to me, and your videos that do just that are incredible!! In specific, at the moment i’m working on a Persona 4 Iceberg and Kanji’s Popularity in Asia was something i put there and was very interested about. The theories i had and what i heard were basically mostly the same as it was said in this video, but still, very interesting and yea!! Again, love your videos and hearing about a point of view from a Japanese fans from this series. Great stuff! :D
Great Video thanks
I love Ryuji, I'm from Australia and I really like when characters are allowed to be vulgar and outspoken.
This is a Certified 𝓒𝓾𝓷𝓽 Classic.
Awesome video as always!
I think my favorite of the "bro" characters is Junpei. He has obvious character flaws, and very noticeably has envy towards the protagonist, but eventually grows out of his flaws to become a better person. He's abrasive early in the game, but especially once Chidori and him meet, he starts to really transform into a fantastic character. He feels very realistic for all of these reasons.
But tbh I love all the "bro" characters, they're great!
From America:
I was just having a conversation with my dad about Persona 5 Royal as I played through the whole game with him and I had talked about how I thought that Ryuji is pretty much the opposite of the faceless NPCs that represent Japan's "polite society" in persona 5. I recalled the scene during the park cleanup with the lost wallet and how it is Ryuji who suggest turning it in to a police box while the other students plan to steal the money.
I think this goes to the heart of the story Atlus was trying to tell about how Japan's collectivist ideals are superficial, and allow for dishonest and selfish people to get by on feigning manners while honest individuals with good intentions like Ryuji are cast as bad for society.
Not only is this not always the case, but Japan has not broadened it's perspective in so long that dishonest people have been allowed to adapt to such an extent that in Persona 5 it is portrayed as if society has totally failed and almost everyone is shallow and self centered.
Now maybe I am misunderstanding it and this was all just meant as foreshadowing for the depths of mementoes. But it seems to me that Atlus was showing the extreme end of what a collectivist society looks like, and how the phantom thieves stand against the state of society in general, what with their costumes that literally represent their rebellious spirit.
All of this would indicate to me that Japanese fans are perhaps missing the point of the entire game because Ryuji is the quintessential Phantom Thief.
I wouldn't be surprised if Japan believed the fake world is better in the ending to Persona 5 Royal and I find that sad.
This was good to know good video
I definitely find myself relating to Yusuke a lot. I am an artist as well, albeit a musician and actor more so than a visual artist. I draw and paint as well, but it isn’t my main focus. I definitely understand the struggle of being extremely passionate about something, and wanting to translate it into a format that other people can consume, but struggling to properly depict the emotion I’m feeling at the time. That, along with being a socially awkward person sometimes. I also appreciated how aesthetically driven of a character he was, too, as I often am that kind of person too. On another note, I also tend to think the best about people, and don’t really realize that others could be hazardous for my mental health until it’s too late. I tend to linger in toxic relationships because I focus on the positive qualities of the person I’m dealing with. (I’m also an east coast American :) )
Gosh same, I love Yusuke so much 😭
For me at least yosuke was always my favorite, he was such a good friend always willing to be there for the mc. And I think my favorite scene for him was when you sneak into the TV world by yourself to talk to adachi and when you come back yosuke sees you return and doesn't tell the others cause he understands the mc situation And how much he cared about adachi. To me he will always be one of my favorites he'll I love all the persona 4 characters. Cause they all bring something to the table and understand each other. They all seen their worst versions of themselves and they joke about it to each other. To me yosuke will always be one of my favorite characters even though he says some stupid shit, I never thought of him as a homophobic.
i'm from america myself, but i actually do really appreciate yosuke and he's one of my favorite characters in the persona series. while how he seems in the main story can be very inappropriate at times (i won't defend it), you see a lot more of his good qualities shine through in his social link activities.
I'm a sucker for misunderstood characters and characters who struggle with communicating their thoughts and feelings to others, so I have a lot of love for the persona casts. My introduction to the series was the P4 anime and I so quickly got SO mad on Kanji's behalf, he was done so dirty by everyone, I'm a quiet peacekeeper type of person but I was so ready to jump in there and fight everyone on his behalf. After getting into the series Kanji stayed at the top until Yusuke gradually creeped up over him. By the end of his palace i liked him, but what won me over was not just how weird he is, but how completely unbothered he is with how weird he comes off as. Is he really so oblivious that he doesn't even register when his closest friends react weirdly to him or does he simply choose to overlook their reactions to keep doing his thing? Either way his vibes are impeccable and every time he calmly said the wildest shit I've ever heard my love for him grew. 10/10 character, unbothered king, give that boy more lobsters and tap water.
(also his side arc about his feelings about his art hit too close to home but that's beside the point).
((Also I get the love for the protags. The P3 protags are my sweet baby children with every mental illness, idc how little about them is cannon you can pry my love for them out of my cold dead hands.))
Out of the party members i def think Ryuji is one of my favorites, in Mexico there's a firm belief of being loyal and dedicated to your family which makes the fact that he punched Kamoshida because he was talking shit about his mom understandable even if they would tell him he was out of line, defending your family it's a standard to a degree.
A lot of people here also enjoy joking around because a good sense of humor is considered a likeable trait here which really does apply to Ryuji
Yusuke is also another one of my favorites but other than the fact that i myself find his antics funny and charming i don't think that has as much to do with my culture
Interesting context. I've heard there's a similar split with Yukiko and Chie from P4- Japanese people like the demure housewife type while Westerners prefer the brash athlete. I hope I'm not stereotyping there, that's just the impression I got.
For real, I'm always disappointed when the boring girl wins in romance situations. :D
I wouldn’t say yukiko is by any means boring she is a fave. Like with Yosuke she has Similar aspects to her character that make her more favourable to Japan than US
In this case, no. Chie outdoes Yukiko regularly in the Japanese popularity polls. (I think when Atlus did the last big poll when the P4-part of the franchise ended (aka P4D was released), the top 3 characters were Yosuke, Chie and Adachi.
Ayyy! My guess on the video topic was right! I'll take the rare win 😅 excited to watch this, always been a little curious about this as am someone who isn't too fond of Yosuke (but can't bring myself to hate him)
hi, i'm from Brazil, Ryuji, Junpei, and Kanji are my top 3 male characters, and funny enough a lot of brazilians do like those characters a lot too, i think its the rebellious vibe those characters give us, and the friendship with them beeing so honest... in Brazil we tend to like the rebellious, carefree and funny charactes, like dante from dmc and leon from resident evil
Yosuke is my favorite but I don't have any issues with Ryuji or Kanji.
Like the vid! I'm Dominican but was raised in the U.S so technically I'm American lol. But after playing both P5, P5R, and P4 recently: I gotta say Yosuke is definitely my favorite "bro". While Yusuke is my fav boy in P5 I feel like Yosuke is unmatched when it comes to how chill and deep down caring he can be. He has his flaws but you know you can count on him. And I have a personal weakness to any strong partnership/friendship in media so Yosuke checks off all the boxes lol.
Besides the game, I think what really solidified his best boy status for me actually came from the animation surprisingly.
(Spoilers for endgame P4)
When Yu was being swallowed up by Ameno-Sagiri, all of the party members shouted in desperation to save him, but Yosuke's cry just hit different (and he was the first one to cry out Yu's name). You can tell he really wanted to save Yu and when his Persona evolved into Susanoo I was already balling my eyes out lol.
And about the homophobic thing, in all honesty I can get passed it, even if it is a little annoying. I can see why it ruins him for a lotta people but personally it doesn't bother me because I see him has an ignorant teenager who just didn't know better and didn't have the wisdom or perspective to see that what he does in those moments are wrong or at the very least hurt others. I can personally relate cause as a teenager I was EXTREMELY homophobic but it was only after getting older, being in college, and meeting different people that I realized that I may have had the wrong perspective. Even if my core values don't change I have to be accepting and considerate of others and their life style. Being hateful accomplishes nothing even when there might be disagreement.
Basically, I saw a younger version of myself in Yosuke so with all of my other points combined he made it to the top of my list despite the flaws.
I really appreciate you explaining this. There were a few things in the games that always seemed odd to me. It's nice to learn the why. I'd be happy to answer your questions.
I'm located in central USA. It's a very laid back, chill place compared to either coast. Commonly touted as a great place to raise a family.
As for the Persona characters, I would say I relate to both Yuske and Kanji. I'm usually quiet, reserved and avoid uncomfortable situations. However, this is a double edged sword. I don't go looking for trouble, but when it finds me I fiercely stand up for my values and don't hesitate to defend myself.
This was really informative. Next time someone calls me when I’m on the train, I’ll put them on speaker.
For me the most relatable character was easily Kanji. My relation to him helped me realize how nice feeling represented in media can be. Which is sorta ironic because the reason why I like him is because his arc, at least in my eyes, is partially about shedding labels and being yourself.
I liked that they made a character who had feminine interests, wasn't the best socially, and felt the societal pushback due to that. I liked that a few bad interactions with women made him associate them with rejection. I like that the combination of those traits, interactions, and societal pushback along with him misunderstanding Naoto and thinking she (who was thought to be he) was interested in him made him think "Oh well I must be gay" and have a crisis because "of course" a guy who sews, loves his family, likes cute stuff, and doesn't express much interest in women is gay. Society doesn't like nuance. It wants to categorize everything.
I felt the same struggles. I wanted to learn how to sew as a kid but gave it up because it wasn't something a boy should do. I adore cute stuff. Bad experiences with women and my own social ineptitude caused me to avoid them. But I knew it wasn't because I was gay or trans or something (not that those are bad by any means. They just aren't me). I was just a dude with interests and values that were traditionally feminine, and am scared of rejection. Kanji was like looking into a mirror (minus the punk rebellion stuff) and I was shocked how close to my situation he was.
Beyond that I also relate to Adachi a lot as a burnout loner. His interaction with Yu in his social link about being alone hits home for me.
"I like being alone. It's easy, and it lets me do whatever I want."
-But doesn't it get lonely?
"I never said it doesn't. I just said it was easier"
Fantastic line. I could have been way more like Adachi had just a few things gone differently. Which is scary, but also why I like him.
I’m a ride or die for Akechi as a character I think that he’s so complex and interesting. Also Yusuke has been my day 1 persona 5 male party member I love him so much.
Great video Lady! Awesome point on the trains! I’m wondering now if there’s fascinating context in having the P5 Mementos and baddie be so tied to the Tokyo train system.
Personally my favorite has always be Yosuke, I really like his personality and his shadow confrontation was the moment I fell in love with the Persona serie(the only other character from the saga that made me feel such strong feeling was Jun in Persona 2), I still love the quirky strong headed boy that fight against a bad environment, so Kanji and Ryuji are still characters I like, but Yosuke is the best in my heart 🥰
(Also, since it was asked in the video, I am from Italy, and we are pretty known to be very loud and speak what we think, so in my case is not a society dogma, I just really like Yosuke Hanamura, ahahaha 😄)
Out of every male Persona character, Akechi will probably always be my favorite. I love chaotic characters like him, but I also sort of relate to his struggles. The self-loathing, the desire for purpose, all sorts of things. As someone who had a different, yet pretty screwed up home life, his problems are ones I've gone through multiple times, and ones I'm still working through. I related to his isolation, his bitterness, his conflicting views on bonding with people, and his reliance on lies for acceptance. I especially love how he's portrayed in the Third Semester as well. He doesn't have some big realization, yet his resolve still grows stronger. He puts down the facade on last time, and chooses to be honest with both himself and everyone else, and I respect that.
What I like the most about Ryuji is just how headstrong he is. Makoto and Morgana are the group’s advisors, coming up with the plans and thinking ahead. But sometimes they falter, they get unsure of themselves and hesitate. Ryuji, although having plenty of flaws himself, sticks to his gut and follows what he feels rather than what may be the best choice. And that’s something that I love about him, he’s constantly trying to move forward even when everyone, including his own teammates, are against him. He’s like the co-captain of the team, constantly going against the odds despite everything telling him not to.
This was a great video, love the Japanese context for even stuff like this. Not only is he my favorite Persona character, but one of all time favorite characters - Ryuji. I know I dont speak for everyone, but I personally love him for being unapologetic himself. The idea of his character who's always being put through the wringer, but not wanting to necessarily change to please others is inspiring to me. The dyed blonde hair, the loud rough attitude, and anger to spare is who Ryuji is. But on top of all that, he has a heart of gold. Which is something I think most Western fans love in general. Ryuji doing Ryuji things, but always staying true to himself is something I adore. The confidence and pride of knowing and loving yourself is something I can't relate to by some degree. From being African American and having a specific physical condition makes me different. Being proud of yourself, no matter what happens, with having still having a sense of good in you is the best part of Ryuji.
(Also, Kanji's in a similar category, favorite P4 character alongside Narukami.)
Akechi is probably my favorite of all. Having to bottle up youre true feelings and personality and maintain a sunny disposition for the sake of others sucks. Not to mention wanting the people who you actually want to like you treat you as not even worth their time, it just makes the rush you feel from unleashing your true self so much more liberating. (Im not condoning murder or mass genocide)
i am from brazil and i identify alot with kanji and yusuke(if we are talking about only the male party members), i have difficult with social cues and people often miss understand me, and i often miss understand people as much
Huh, I figured that it was largely down to Ryuji being a loudmouthed delinquent and Junpei being selfish. It was interesting to see other reasons for the prominent divide. The perspective you share in these videos is always enlightening.
Between Ryuji and Yosuke, since I have yet to finish P3 myself, I find myself liking Yosuke a little more when the scene isn't trying to be "comedic". Him being dedicated to solving the case to keep his beloved town safe I find more a bit more relatable than Ryuji being a PT to get back at a crappy society. That being said, Ryuji does get bonus points for not being awful for the sake of "cOmEdY" and being less of a buttmonkey.
I just like Ryuji’s golden retriever puppy energy 😂🥹
I related strongly to Kanji. Not because I was a "troublemaker" in highschool, I was a pretty good student and fairly well behaved. It's because I had some typically feminine interests and was constantly accused of being gay at the Christian School I attended. His is one of the few social links I've cried at just because it hit so close to home.