WHY are 'Self-Insert' Protags #1 in Asia?! (Values Dissonance in Persona & JRPGs)
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- Why do Persona's "bland," silent protagonists consistently top the polls not just in Japan, but in other regions of Asia as well?!
Interestingly enough, this has to do with the fundamental difference in how Western, more individualistic cultures view the self/"ego" compared to the more inter-dependent view that's the tendency of most Asian cultures. So in this video, we'll be going over a big case of "values dissonance" between these audiences.
SOURCES:
docs.google.com/document/d/1B...
Western vs. Eastern/Asian view of the self ala Gish Jen video: • Philosophies of Self: ...
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The "fluidity" of the protags also really adheres to Taoist philosophy (which also had historical influence in Japan)--specifically "wu wei" which literally translates to "non-action," but philosophically means "to go with the flow." Or in other words letting things happen naturally. Take action as is necessary. Flexibility and adaptability.
Another thing in particular in the Dao De Jing: "The sage manages his affairs through non-action and conveys instruction without speaking" (silent protags lol).
There are definitely a myriad of other factors that contribute to forming cultural worldviews, but there's no denying that Christianity and Buddhism played major roles in the respective regions where they've had centuries, if not millennia, of influence. If you'd like to learn more about how Confucian thought influenced Japanese society & Persona as a result, I highly recommend my P5 Palace Rulers video (& the rest of that playlist).
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To me, the way I see "wu wei" is the same phrase as "getting floating on"
Your videos are so insightful and wonderful to watch as an American. 95% of the ideals you've spoken about, I've had a "feeling" about. But it wasn't until this video did things finally click. I'm not saying I understand EVERYTHING about another culture I know nothing about besides anime; simply that I think I finally understand the BASIS for taking step 1 to understanding another culture - all thanks to your videos. ❤ thank you!
We still can't forget Grandmaster Kong, or his students if one of his opinions is a student's writing.
It is very important that Kawai’s take on Jung’s notion of individuation is very different. There is a fundamental “paradox of the self” The Individuation of emptying the ego through the evoker in Persona 3 is the closest to this. Persona 5 goes further and further to the Western version of Jung. Fundamentally though all of Persona will someway go back to Kawai as that is who brought Jung to Japan.
Yu and Kanji happen to be my favorite out of the persona 4 cast. For me, as someone of African American descent there's two things to note here.
1. When people say "western" or "christian" values, they're often referencing white english protestant values in particular. Which do in fact have an impact where I am from.
2. While being an American, my culture is heavily influenced by those who were also Black americans.
From my experience, community and individualism are both held to the same amount of importance. Going too far in one direction end up being percieved as dangerous (either losing your sense of self by being distanced from your culture for too long or not fitting in with the group well enough in terms of what's "racially acceptable". IE. White people things and Black people things, especially in terms of masculinity.) (Meaning I have dealt with several occasions where the way I speak, dressed, the things I liked and disliked were considered "white behaviors" in my own community)
So in my experience, Kanji appealed to me with the latter and Narukami with the Former. I have felt distanced from my culture from where I ended up living and not living up to the ideal of what's considered "gender appropriate" in my racial group. So that's what sticks to me at least. My point being that often times when you aren't considered a main demographic in your own country, let alone in your own social circle, seeing both the struggles and the triumphs resonate with you.
Let me guess. Did your black peers give you shit for liking rock music or not liking basketball or football? I had a black friend who used to get shit for being inspired by Hendrix and liking RPGs.
Yeah. I'm a white dude and a Christian, and have been actively including more people from non-white/Protestant backgrounds in my social feeds to learn from them, and your comments totally tracks. When I see Christian pastors (or even non-religious/non-clergy) people of non-white/Protestant backgrounds (or white ones who have been taught/inspired by non-white/Protestant), you see a much stronger focus on community and understanding how your actions impact others.
Sad thing is, for the first couple hundred years, Christianity was that until it became the religion of empire.
Sorry you've faced the crap you did dude, and thank you LadyVirgilia for doing these videos!
I guess my take was always the protags were slightly less 'character developed' (although still had their personalities) to allow the player to empathize with the rest of their cast, using the protag as their active avatar to do so. That's part of why I love P5 so much, you get so involved in other peoples' lives and do what you can to have a positive impact on the world around you.
This contrast itself could be a good theme for a persona game on Individualism vs Colectivism and how both have good and bad aspects we should learn from
It could be done but it seems a bit too similar to the SMT depictions of law and chaos (law being collectivism and chaos being individualism)
I reminds me of the themes of Persona 4 Arena Ultimax vs Persona Q2 New Cinema Labrynth.
in my experience, silent protag types still do tend to be among the most popular characters, as well as occasional poll-toppers, in western cultures as well; it's just that they're usually more popular with the, shall we say, equally silent majority, whereas people who participate in fandom are usually seen grousing about them the loudest. but even then, this does tie back into the cultural differences being discussed here -- because the way westerners usually appreciate their silent protags is by constructing their own versions, their own interpretations, of who that character really is. their blankness isn't seen as a virtue in itself, but as a space that has the opportunity to be filled.
also, one thing that this discussion indirectly clarifies for me is the way dialogue options tend to work in japanese games. usually, there's a Correct Option that you want to aim to pick for the best results -- and most of the time, that option is the one that's more accomodating to the person you're speaking to, more agreeable, more passive. I've generally felt like this kind of system is relatively weak and a stronger one would be, for example, one where every option has distinct results and what you're looking for is the result you're most interested in at a given time. still, I can now say I've gained a little more perspective on why these systems tend to be designed the way they are by japanese devs!
The most powerful self-insert experience i ever had was wile reading the Muv-Luv trilogy. At some point you no longer care about yourself, it's the people around you that mean EVERYTHING to you.
That VN completely re-wired my brain into a more asian configuration. What a ride it was!
Hard agree, nice to see a fellow Muv-Luv appreciator. The way that series gets you into Takeru's mind as you experience everything through him is insane. THAT scene from Chapter 6 of Alternative is the most potent and raw emotional response any game has gotten out of me, I almost had to take a break.
Muv-Luv made me seriously consider joining the military, it was so effective. All Muv-Luv readers carry a piece of Takeru with them forever.
That's a bit odd because i read it as a fierce anti-war statement.@@gilroyscopa
Huh, wow, this is a mix of incredibly surprising and heartwarming to see. I was just thinking about Muv Luv as I scrolled down and didn't imagine for a second I'd see it mentioned. As somebody who never really "got" self-inserting and would always admire stories from the outside, reading Muv Luv (now a decade ago...) was the first time I ever really got into a character's headspace. I went into the trilogy knowing basically nothing but how highly regarded it was on VNDB and just gave it the absolute benefit of the doubt - I cleared out my schedule (I read it in 9 days doing nothing else but eating and showering, basically, sleeping every other day).
Ever since then I've, despite being someone very analytical about media I consume in the grand scheme of things, always try to take in stories I engage with in the moment, following the feelings I think I'm "meant to" and giving the world the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes I can't help but be pulled out of things by poor writing, but I try to give things the best chance I can to let them pull me in.
I was actually talking to my girlfriend just a week or two ago about self-inserts in VNs and voiced vs unvoiced protags (Takeru being voiced only in flashbacks is something I find to be an INCREDIBLY fascinating artistic choice) and how despite Muv Luv Alternative isn't really big on meaningful choices (which I like, to be clear, as a game dev I just can't help but start getting distracted by technical aspects and prefer a kinetic novel), even some of the "false" choices really just pulled me deeper into the character, completely caught up in examining things from their perspective). I can imagine people getting a simiilar thing out of a Persona protag - they're clearly their own person and you're constrained to a narrow range of possible expressions tweaking the exact tone, but having to make those choices just keeps you wrapped up in their perspective.
Sorry for the longer response to a shorter post. Even with a decade of lamenting I've never experienced something quite as moving since (not at all helped by severe chronic pain problems I developed shortly after reading it) I still just get excited by a chance to gush at how profound of an experience reading Muv Luv was. It's always a little bit heartwarming and gives a feeling of connection to others to remember other people feel the same way.
Not forgetting that in the manga and anime/movies versions, the protag isn't self insert, but actually has a personality.
It's obvious, you either explain their mutism as part of the plot (which in Persona would only make sense for Tatsuya Suou, due to his past as a survivor of arson) or you completely excise them away, or they have to be shown talking in anime.
Sounds like silent mc is not a "self-insert" for japanese players but straight up "fantasy" of a perfect socialy acceptable person.
(I like mc's because they are iconic)
I feel like a big part of it may have to do with what people in the west tend to think of when they hear "self insert character". I feel like in the west, "self insert character" tends to mean "OP mary sure self insert fanfiction OC" rather than a reflection of the player's thoughts and feelings on the events in a game. So when people in the west hear that a game's MC is a player self insert character, they probably think of a game where they player character never has any trouble with anything unless the plot requires it, where even the most ridiculous decisions the player makes somehow manage to be right in the end, and where even enemies that despise the player character end up befriending or loving them in the end, regardless of how much sense it may or may not make.
I always appreciate your perspective on how philosophy and psychology and sociology come together in these works! I wonder if one reason so much Japanese media and storytelling found large audiences in the U.S. and elsewhere is because that "power of friendship/teamwork" mode resonated with people who felt disconnected from their culture's more individualistic ethos (even while, of course, still having internalized it to some extent). Your point about the protags of Persona games being able to relate to and help a wide variety of people in different situations is definitely one of my favorite elements every time I play them -- that's sort of a power fantasy too in its own way.
I guess it comes from, helping a community, but the relationship of friends and community is genuinely friendly.
@drmanhattan5970 oh brother
One thing I do find annoying about all those "they have voted for thenselves?" comments I never understood is that they imply that each protagonist of the Hashino games in particular and the Persona series in general are blank slates. Which... They are not? They clearly _have_ defined personalities if you are willing to read. They are a bit more broad, sure, to allow for player self-expression. But you can clearly see differences in the protagonists if you engage with the game on that level. Here is my interpretation for that.
Joker is clearly the most socially competent of the 3 Hashino protagonists. He jokes around frequently and is quite sociable from the get-go. He recognises social cues well and I now stop using the word _social_ to describe him even though this truly is his thing. He is also very much a trickster. Not just per designation, but he clearly is willing to subvert dumb rules that are meant to hinder people as well as going cheeky on his own without the coersion of his fellow classmates. No matter how you play Joker, being either more collected and restraint like I play him or more out there and wild like the game obviously wants you to, this you can't change about him. Same with the fact that he is the most "selfish" and individualistic/opportunistic of the group.
P4s Protagonist whomst I will call Yu for brevity is clearly more introverted than Joker, but he has a level of interpersonal empathy that none of the other Protags come close to scratching.
Most of his social links are very personal and very intimate. He is an active listener and in contrast to Joker, all he needs to change people's lives are words and subtlety. (most of the time guys. exceptions apply) He also is funnily enough the most morally grey out of all of them, kinda even represented in his design. He deliberates actively if he shall protect a serial killer. Not for long unless the player is a psycho but he does. And the game even gives you an ending for that meaning it aknowledges that this action is within his capabilities.
Minato/Makoto is the most apathetic and socially awkward of all of them. He is very much disengaged with life and you can see that in the way he interacts with people. His whole journey, AS LADY JUST made a new video detailing, is about him learning the value of human connection. And man he a stubborn student but man does he get there.
Dismissing all of this out of hand just because you pilot him is imho incredibly ignorant. As is the idea of lambasting selflesness.
Also if Lady agrees with my assesment of the Protags I want the "I called it-points" :D
Also Joker is imply to be a thrill seeker. I mean I think it makes the most sense for joker doing the harem route.
@@starmaker75 I will NEVER! :D But I can totally see this interpretation. And in contrast to the other 2 I _actually_ can see this being his choice. :)
@drmanhattan5970 The idea of "canonizing" it seems asinine to me.
Like: It's THERE! In the writing. It's just _your_ choice of acknowliging its existance.
You CANNOT NOT be a Phantom thief in P5. You cannot NOT lie to Takemi. You cannot NOT check out the maid service.
You cannot NOT be an effing show-off and a smug little brat in Sae's Palace. NONE of your choices affect Joker in this. Its just _there_ :)
People usually focus on _how_ they can alter Jokers reaction to his set path and call it expression. And I am people. But the writers clearly have had a hand in shaping the protagonists. They do their best to make them as maluable as their story allows but in the end Joker, Yu and Makoto/Minato are realised characters. Way more developed at least as for example a Skyrim Protagonist. This is why you _can_ make reasonably good adaptations of the games in Comic or Animation. Your milage on how successful they are may vary but the protags feel genuine even though you are not the one piloting them.
Joker is just great honestly, I'm going through p5r for the first time and damn nobody told me this dude actually had so much personality, even leaving aside the dumb but funny jokes he can make constantly in dialogue, he shows so much rage and "will of rebellion" as the game calls it in the cutscenes, like awakening his persona or finishing off yaldebaoth, I also love how the characters actually acknowledge all of this like I think Ryuji mentions once how he can be reserved and quiet but when he gets his mind on something he's very determined, and while it could be seen as crazy that the leader in this group is the one who talks the least, it shows that they trust not only his obvious abilities with personas but his determination and rage towards the injustices in society, yeah idk he's just really cool and also rivers in the desert basically just being a song about him from his pov is really damn awesome too, sorry for the rambling
Yu also has a weird sense of humor that is not as apparent in the other protags. This is likely why he’s able to bond with Margaret.
Minato is also low key a bit of an *ss. Whereas most of Yu’s joke options are random “I think I might be dying” Minato leans towards more of a dark sense of humor. See laughing at Kenji when he discovers his teacher crush has a boyfriend.
Joker will occasionally say something funny “can’t remember drugs” but it is much much rarer.
And Minako has, her humor is derived from her going from sweet and innocent to fite me. See her willing to beat up someone in the hermit link and her knocking out the policemen in q2 when the initial plan starts to go south.
7:18 to keep it P3 thene, remember that Makoto and Kotone disregard their friends' will to fight Nyx by killing Ryoji, thus delaying the Fall which happened on their graduation party during karaoke
So to say they are blank when they thought they were doing what's right for their friends?
That's the players choice as opposed to anything character specific. You could say this about most characters choices in any game. I don't think Persona leads are blank slates though.
Except Makoto and Kotone disregarding their friends' will isn't canon. That's something you the player can choose, but canonically they chose to not forget and deal with Nyx themselves.
@@loganbigmo It's only "canonical" because the P3 devs followed the bizarre concept of releasing the "true ending" as a separate content. In my pov, it would be great if Persona 3 ended in ambiguous fashion, similar to the main SMT series, you could either follow the nihilistic solution (just kill the lame character with a bad haircut and wait for the inevitable end) or fight for your friendship memories by using friendship power to kill entropy itself, both are "canon". And the "good ending" of P3 were the protagonist is depicted as sick and pale, he is about to sleep on Aigi's lap (gotta love the projection from the writers, they wish they had a "guardian angel waifu"), maybe he is not sleeping, he is about to die... or not? That's the beauty of ambiguous choices. Sadly, the P3 devs ruined that concept
This is just my 2 cents coming in. Probably unproductive thoughts.
Growing up in an emotionally abusive household, I tried getting rid of my desires as a coping mechanism. I enjoyed the basic idea of desires being a suffering because i was basic "freedom". Status, grades, job title were all more important. One step out of line for THEIR desire, I emotionally abused and deprived. Speaking up made me a target of all that was wrong with the household.
I got rid of my sense of "self" amd "desire" in order to survive.
Honestly it left me with a lot of damage. It wasn't until I focused on what I wanted, who I was, and my sense of identity did I begin to heal in therapy.
On the other hand, I DO have military service. In America, they emphasize both the working together as a monolith, respecting those in higher rank with particular behavior and the way you address someone. At work you are part of a collective, yet at home behind closed doors you can do whatever you want as long as you exemplify an outstanding member of society. (Don't drink too much, harm others, or become disruptive) so technically I felt like I was part of something bigger and homogenous without being a detriment to my mental health/sense of self.
I'm grateful for your channel as it gives me a jumping off point into learning so much more about Japanese culture and viewing media in a different perspective.
Back during my first year of college I wrote a paper and made a small presentation about a subject similar to this. A rather amateurish attempt at addressing how western individualism and eastern collectivism affect the games made in both parts of the world (mainly WRPGs and JRPGs), so I had an _idea_ as to what was be talked about going into it. I still think that the video was really interesting, though.
In regards to the very end, "globalization" almost seems more like code for "westernization". Mainly because of the trend to try and make everything open world because westerners claim it's the best thing for games (freedom galore) and the fact that Final Fantasy XVI, to my knowledge, the latest entry in one of _the_ JRPGs franchises, just is Game of Thrones.
I've yet to see what's going on with Chained Echoes (I do own it), and Sea of Stars, so maybe there will be more of eastern media influencing western creators as well instead of just "we need to get westerners to buy this. Cater to their tastes and the things they're inundated with in their media". I'm a (hopeful) writer and a big fan of anime, Japanese games, and Japanese culture, so I'm technically part of the same crowd.
Maybe it's more from business.
Copy what the American company does for the money IE open world free-to-play or live service games for that extra capital. Slide in some Pachinko mechanics for getting PVP and PVE upgrades for extra money?
I know Ireland has a lot American and Enhlish games in the country from State marketing parts of Ireland to big companies settle there, just like with tourists.
More English speaking companies in Ireland, more people who speak English hafta work in those companies for the English speaking higher-ups.
It's true FF16 is influenced by Game of Thrones but it's really all stemming from Producer YoshiP's love of the games written by Matsuno like the Tactics and Orge Battle series which have a lot of political and interpersonal drama similar to GoT. You are right though the approach of making FF more action like has been happening for a while but for 16 it comes very much from wanting the game to do well internationally. Home console sales rely more on international success than domestic so a blockbuster budget has to make back its investment. FF is still huge but it's hardly wrong to say it hasn't declined over the years especially with the reception to 13 series and 15 and I think mainstream audiences in the US anyway don't always appreciate JRPGs unless they're simplistic like Pokémon which isn't a bug budget game but a huge franchise regardless.
@@SurAuversand GoT is just based on actual historical medieval European ways how things were done between noble houses/important people or families.
Japan has been ripping off the west for a lot longer than that. Dragon Quest came from Wizardry and Ultima, for example.
Admittedly I’m a big fan of the three MCs though I’m Western.
Its interesting that in Christianity its more about your individual relationship with the creator while Eastern seems like its more about your relationship with the world and others and despite that it feels like Christianity is a lot more rigid compared to what I know of Shinto and Buddhism.
to be fair, a lot of that is because Christianity has fragmented into a lot of groups (or sects) that all try vehemently not to be like 'the others' that they split off from.
Another great video! Very interesting look into the general philosophy between Eastern vs Western countries and how that values dissonance translates to East Persona fans enjoying the protagonists so much.
When it come to self insert I don't really care much because what usually carry the story for me are the character around them.
Also I seen people complain about self-insert being bad and they themselve making the worst serf-inserts where it actually loses my attention because how bad they are while trying to "make better" a story.
I'm not even three minutes into the video and I'm wondering if these people even played the same games as I did. "They're barely even characters!" Did you not manage to pick up on P3MC's apathy? P4MC's bluntness or Joker's sass? Did you not see their emotional reactions to things? Does their body language not matter to you? They might be "silent" but they have their own personality that's easy to see if you look at them for more than five seconds.
Yeah, especially Joker, the guy constantly makes very philosophically entrenched decisions, to a degree that there's really no arguing he's a blank slate or neutral character. I don't think the other two(three?) are either, but I can forgive the mistake more. But with Joker, nope, makes no sense.
Yeah, the choices you are given very clearly show the characters' personalities (I view the dialogue options as what the character is considering saying, even if you choose a different option), and they also make plenty of decisions on their own without player input. They are their own characters.
Makoto is a depressed teenager looking for connection, Kotone is a depressed teenager who hides behind a mask of positivity, Yu is the hot guy who is also just the nicest dude you've ever met, Ren is a snarky nerd with an unflinching sense of justice. Just because we get to control them doesn't mean they don't have a character at all.
One of my favorite examples is Yu, who is clearly great with children, as shown by his relationship with Nanako, and his Temperance and Tower Social Links.
I just finished P3R, so the game is fresh in my mind... And that's the thing, the apathy in P3 is only noticeable in very specific scenarios, when the protagonist is "considering" some dialogue options. But the body language is not apathetic/lethargic, the character looks normal as "energy" goes, always hearing music and with the hands in the pockets, you can interpret that in multiple ways, either carefree, antisocial, etc..
I think you are mixing up the movie interpretation of the character with the actual game, in the movie the protagonist is the embodiment of the "emo" culture, he is a blue haired zombie who just don't care about anything. In the game, it's something else entirely, you can follow the "role playing" approach and answer "I don't care" every now or then, but most of the time he is just neutral, there's no complexities or layers of personality, the character is a avatar, simple as that. If you let your interpretations go wild, you can find deeper meaning in Avatar (the James Cameron movie), 50 Shades of Grey and so on, everything has "complexity" as long as you are willing to find and project them into existence. Now if that "complexity" will be interpreted the same by others, that's a different story
exactly!
イケメンだから好き
The protaginists in Persona aren't even self inserts, they are their own characters, you can see it through all the dialog options Persona 3-5 gives you. Makoto's a introverted, introspective person that slowly opens up to SEES, Yu's a stoic guy that takes everything way too seriously and Joker is a troll with a strong sense of justice.
7:30 - pausing on this single page, I have never been so thankful that you collect all your sources in the description because HAWT DAMM, that sounds like it'll explain SO MUCH of the basis of the Persona series themes, holy mackerel, can't wait to read it...
Kawai Hayao sounds a lot like you, Lady V! Having so much life experience in two worlds, and writing in English to bring it to the Western audience and explain the values dissonance he saw. I love your work, it always makes me think more deeply than I expected, even after so many months of being a subscriber! :)
This was a very necessary video. It never even occurred to me that there could be some connection between these characters and the view of the ego. That said, I don't think I will ever really be able to view silent protagonists as an actual character, much less a really good one-even if there are some that I might be generally fond of.
Honestly don't know if they truly feel that the characters are good for these reasons.
Japan loves protagonists and the popularity poles reflect that, Luffy is a defined character that though he cares about his friends his desire is to make himself and the people he calls friends happy, but Japan places him at number 1
But on the other hand they haven't had bakugou drop out of the number one spot throughout all of mha's run and he's got tons of ego and while caring in his own way, he definitely desires to be the most important person in the room.
I think this video gives good insight into the difference between Eastern and western philosophies, but I think a little cross referencing could have helped.
I might be wrong, but I just thought I'd share.
@@AStrangeTrapi agree
@@AStrangeTrapinterestingly, although Japan ranks highly in collectiveness, they rank lowly in social capital, and they have been plagued by an epidemic of isolation for decades. Japan as a society is outwardly collectivistic especially due to social obligations and formalities, but as individuals they are self-construed as individualistic people. I can see why a mc who defies authority and obligations for their own beliefs and friends would be widely appealing to almost all demographic of the Japanese people. As for Mha, the difference there could be explained by the majority demographic of the readers may lean towards younger male teens who may relate with bakugo's edginess and outward expression of their desires more, though don't quote me on this one, just guessing from shonen jump's general reader demographic. Though I will say, a subdued, reserved/laconic yet bold and caring character like persona MCs are pretty much the ideal person that fits well into East Asian philosophies, which I grew up with and very much relate to, and yes the persona MCs are my no 1 in my personal rankings too.
@@AStrangeTrap ha thanks I was about to write a long paragraph about Luffy and Bakugo.
Oh no I've been called out! I was Toffee1497 one of the first comments shown. I adore your videos LadyVirgilia and love this video too, keep it up!
Though I do just want to clarify I was exaggerating, honestly I adore the silent protags too.
That was extremely informative wow! Thank you for you hard work!
The anime, Arena and other extra outside content really helped Yu as a character. He really is THE hero to me. The manga really gave him a great backstory which also helped with his mirror rivalry with gabage boy
Amazing essay as always, Lady!
Hey there, I really appreciate the amount of effort and research you put in each video, and the competence with which you explain delicate and nuanced topics such as this. It adds a new dimension to my already deep appreciation for the Persona series. So thanks for sharing!
Always the best content for actually learning
All your videos are so fascinating! thank you for doing these analysis so I can understand these great games better!
Wow, I had never considered these protagonists from that perspective before! Thank you so much for making this video Virgilia, you've opened my eyes to a new way of looking at things. :)
This was a really interesting video, most of my view on 'self-insert' protagonists has been shaped by anime (often the mountain trashier power fantasy harem stuff) where it gave me the impression that it was a lazy blank slate character the audience can imprint onto and allow them to be the number 1 cool guy and get all the girls. Honestly I thought the popularity the persona protags had was based on them being the main character and the one you see in all the art and trailers. I didn't realise there was cultural reasons behind it too, I thought they kept their personalities fairly unobtrusive just to make them a better lens through which to view the other characters stories.
A very interesting topic, its always facinating to me to learn more about Asian culture, especially since even in games their societal values sometimes baffle me, especially when it comes to excluding or treating people who look different from groups or even attack them simply becouse they are different regardless of the reason.
I myself am from the Netherlands wich is a melting pots of alot of cultures and the general sentiment is to respect a person regardless of their origin and even more if they are behaving themselves well.
After all, no one likes rude people or those who try to force their views on others.
I would argue that Greek philosophy has a bigger impact on the west's concept of self than the Judeo-Christian religions. While you do make excellent points in the matter, I feel they are over shadowed by the subservient nature of Christianity that puts God at the pinnacle of existence and us only as relevant as we serve God. Thus the concept of self can be relegated to differentiate people in relation to God and God's will.
Where Greek philosophy, which has great influence on modern interpretations of Christianity, has a bigger emphasis on the self with things like the metaphysics of the tripartite soul, the ethics of virtue theory, and the thought experiment of the ship of Theseus.
I loved the video and keep up the good work.
I think about the word psyche a lot, and how "pneuma" in Latin is usually understood as "soul" in Biblical translations, so I definitely see the Greek roots and inspiration! Honestly it's hard to separate the two-way influence of Greek, Roman, and Abrahamic philosophy on each other during the time of the Empire 😅
And yeah, I agree ultimately God is the pinnacle of existence in Judeo-Christian religions, but I still think there's a great emphasis on achieving individual salvation via the individual's relationship with God. Sure the gospels have the "Great Commission" to convert other people to the faith, as well as Christ's acts that should inspire compassion towards others, but ultimately it seems much more focused on the individual being responsible for their own faith/salvation. Christ himself moved/passed on villages (whole groups of people) if they did not believe who he said he was.
And why are we called to love in the Bible? Because we love God and we *love ourselves.* For Christians, we are *God's* creation, so we're supposed to love ourselves meanwhile there's nothing like that argument in Buddhism.
Speaking as someone ishigh functioning autistic. Their times where I do feel do this "fulditity". As my family said "play the game"
There still is a collectivism in western societies . In american atleast you have to present yourself as outgoing and even smile occasionally. I mean there times where random people walking near each other, we go "hey" "how are you" and make small talk to other. It really common for customers to small talks to worker especially retail. Again I was train to do by saying that you have to "play the game". In Catholic christianity one sacment or is encouraged is by doing voluntary work on charities and helping with food banks and the likes
Again there is a collevisism even in America, just expressed different
Again I would love to see do a video on Christianity and Buddhism on how they both similar and different (i.e religions founded by chill guys that where more popular outside in there home place).
Never heard of this cultural difference, thx for the video
Very interesting video! I've thought about this topic before, but I never considered the cultural aspect of it. I've always assumed silent protagonists were an invitation to imagine your own preferred personality onto them, and that people who hate silent protags were people who were unable or unwilling to invent a personality for them, and therefore viewed them as blank, boring, nothing, etc. Honestly, I still think this might be a part of the whole issue, but certainly not the only part. I appreciate this video giving a new perspective on things.
So the Persona games were my first ever JRPGs this year, after playing tons of other genres, including Western RPGs, for decades (and a healthy dose of Dungeons & Dragons for good measure). I found it fascinating seeing the different aspects of TTRPGs that had been adopted and refined over the years in both Japanese and Western RPGs. It seems like both started out from a similar place of trying to recreate D&D in a digital form, but in Japan they focused on the turn-based combat and strategy of building out a character and a party, refining that into what Persona is today. Whereas in the West, developers focused on the reactive and interactive storytelling aspect of TTRPGs, refining that until you've got the however many thousands of ending variations Baldurs Gate 3 has, or the open vastness of Starfield where you can literally be whatever you want to be.
I wonder how the perception of "blank slate protagonists" would shift in the West if they just gave the MCs canon names by default (and I'd say even locked the player from changing it at all, but idk how important being able to name the MC in Eastern nations is).
I feel like presenting the player with a blank slate to name the MC makes western audiences expect more *actual role-playing,* akin to TTRPGs, and perhaps even subconsciously makes us project our personality onto the MC even when it doesn't totally match up with the actual character. Idk if it's even as deep as Greco-Roman values vs Buddhist values, it might just be a difference in gaming values.
Either way, I love your videos! Always super insightful and they've been wonderful watches as I've been playing through the games for the first time this year.
I think it's a mixture of both. Differing values are involved, but I think it's also due to cultural tastes and expectations. Then again, none of this is true across the board. Characters like Luffy and Bakugou are extremely popular in Japan, despite them being the anthisis of this. I wonder what is the deal with that. (I REALLY wish the video dove into that aspect more, because it makes this whole thing even more baffling and alien to me. I'm half Mexican, so part of my cultural heritage comes from a collectivist culture, and I don't understand this. I doubt individualism vs collectivism has anything to do with it. I think explaining the exceptions in those cases would've made it less confusing.)
As for locking in the player name for the MC, I'm not sure how to feel about that. On one hand, I agree that giving a blank slate makes westerners want more role playing elements where your choices matter, so locking it in would make them feel more like a normal character like Geralt from the Witcher games. But on the other hand, the blandness is often seen as a canvas to fill in by the fandom and people can fill in the blanks with their own OC or themselves. Doing that would rip that all away. Plus, I think that would work better in a game with a set protagonist like Persona, but not so much in one where they have no face like in Twisted Wonderland or Obey Me where you have no other choice but to do that. (It's also part of the reason why I enjoy Twisted Wonderland fanfics more than the game itself, but that's really besides the point.)
@@sorcerersapprentice my idea of locking in the protagonists name is exclusively in terms of games like Persona where the MC has a defined personality. If they're more of a blank canvas, then letting the player name them is fine.
@@McLoser27 If that's the case, then I totally agree. I don't get why the developers just do that in the west, because it's one of those things that doesn't translate out overseas.
Good questions. Yes, I greatly simplified many concepts for this video, otherwise it would be 40-50 minutes long at least. I do have plans to someday create a "primer" video of the development of the different civilizations in Asia, and how that differs from other continents. In other words a video that sets the foundational concepts for my other Japanese analyses. Info that I take for granted, since they're things I had the privilege to study.
So yes, the individualism vs collectivism aspect isn't the only factor involved. It's the added influence of Buddhist, Confucian, and Taoist values in the case of Asia. Other regions of the world weren't influenced by these philosophies, so it's why you can have areas like Latin America and Africa that also lean collectivist *but* differ in large part due to Catholic influence of colonizers and/or being essentially in that region of the world already (i.e. Africa's proximity to the Middle East).
@@LadyVirgilia as I've been thinking about it, it's also highly likely that the reason the "gaming values" evolved differently is **because** of these different cultural backgrounds?
So like maybe in the West, because of that individualistic society, RPG developers wanted more ways for the player to express themselves in their game world, whereas in Japan, RPG developers wanted a well-written party of lovable friends because of that historically collectivist society.
Personally I reside somewhere in the middle. I love a game with a good core cast of lovable characters, but I also love being able to influence the story and the world. The recent Guardians of the Galaxy game (developed by Eidos Montreal and published by Square Enix, so essentially a joint venture between Japan and Canada) was a great middle ground. The story was linear and that allowed for lots of inter-party banter and funny situations, but there were also still choices for Star-Lord to make that would affect minor things about the story, sometimes even coming back around hours later to great comedic effect.
Pretty solid video! I do think there's some more salient connections between Western Christian thought and individualism that you maybe could have touched on. For example, there's Catholicism's emphasis on the role of free will, Luther extending the concept of vocation beyond the clerical profession, and a key book in the history of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (hi there, Jung!) being named Gifts Differing in reference to Romans 12:6. Overall, though, this is pretty solid - I appreciate that you make videos like this on the cultural context of JP media, they're insightful and sometimes very surprising!
I would love to here you do a cultural deep dive into the Danganronpa series. Watching this video made me rethink about it’s “self insert” protagonist Makoto.
I really didn't think about the real reason of this preference, good to know!
Being from Latin America, I can say that we mostly share the "American" point of view in the Ego. Me and my friends always debate what is even the point of "Avatars" in Eastern games, but this gived me an answer for sure
Great video!
Being half Mexican, I totally agree. Despite some of my ethnicity being from a Collectivist Culture, this is also SUPER alien to me. Why even bother having a blank slate protagonist if you can replace them with an inanimate object and make no difference? They are more like the Crew from The Office than actual characters. Protagonists should be proactive and make choices that push the plot forward. That's what you're taught in writing classes. No wonder why so many people in the western Twisted Wonderland fandom, which also has one of these as well, create their own version of Yuu (the player character) and change the story so much in fics. They are so bland and boring. That makes writing fics more fun, but the game play itself with these sorts of protagonists is just annoying. Still wish they were like in the west and you could impact the plot more.
Again i thought the reason why persona protagonist are in the upper poll in east asia is because it way to said "no answer". I do think it fitting to have silent protagonist because it having different mask for different links. Thank for giving context as a american.
To me persona protagonists are the "not really that munch self insert, just quiet"which don't you see in western slient protagonist. The only western silent protagonist that are similar to not quite self insert are sunny from omori, Doomslayer from Doom, and kris from deltarune.
To me here my interpretation of p3-5 protagonist:
Persona 3 protagonist male: here a low energy, chill guy. He speak the least but speak directly, almost a rude way. He also really wants to take the easy and not hard way, but does develop better and more out going
Persona 3 female protagonist: she has a face of being out going amd friendly, but are times where she does show similar to her male counterpoint. Both male and female persona 3 protagonist have depression issue, both have different masks
Persona 4: like FEMC he outgoing amd exovert. He also like being a leader and is there to help his friends out. However he one of those people who if alone for a little bit he very existential and kinda goes crazy from it. Basically he really doesn't like to be alone.
Persona 5 protagonist: he may seems like clam and chill. However the guy thrill seeker. Guys love the phantom thieve stuff and being a troll. However he has rather poor impluse control. Joker is the most likely to do a harem route because he loves woman. Again joker is the guy that will love sky diving
i'm playing Persona 4 right now.
One thing I notice:
Every other character who awakens Persona power is like:
Shadow Self : I am you...
Self: No, you are not me!!
Shadow Self becomes a monster, a fight ensues.
Shadow Self is pacified finally. Self calms down.
Self: I see it now, yes, you are me.
Self accepts Shadow Self , persona power is awakened.
But if the MC:
Shadow Self: I am you.
Self: Ok.
Persona power awakens.
Seems to me the MC is the most Zen out of the characters there, the most ... enlightened, thus there's not much inner struggle, just acceptance, then mastery.
I think it makes the MC cool, and definitely does not mean that MC is not a real character.
2:15 your map includes New Zealand! So many maps forget to include New Zealand, most hilariously a map in an NZ government building one time.
I have to admit, I have caught myself more towards things I have chosen, even when I can step back and look more objectively and see differences fade away. Certain brand items for example, one or more might be basically the same thing with a similar price, but I'll always choose the same one and think it's better. Interesting to understand a bit more about why I tend to do that. This concept of self seems to be a central pillar of our cultures, so central in fact that most of us (me) won't think about it at all unless it's pointed out. Thinking more about it though, a lot of things start to make more sense.
That's crazy, i always thought why people overseas like Self Insert protags, hmmm. If anything now at least i know they prob will never change it which personally hurts.
Thanks a lot for the video!
I think it's projection
They want to hate silent protagonists because they want to be that character getting all the power and ladies to they hate them out of spite. Besides we in the US is famous for the worst self insert fan comics and fanfiction
Let's not forget we as a society put Red as the greatest character that he is default mute in everything
This is really interesting, as western fan personally I never saw these characters as just entirely self-inserts. My head canon is that these protags have their own personalities and lives as well as backstories in the world of the game BUT it is the moment they see the blue Philemon butterfly when they become shells of their former selves and we as the player inhabit them for an in game year being their soul. Then it is up to us as the player to gage an idea of what they were like before they saw the butterfly and we possess them, a really good example of this is the Persona 1 protagonist, I feel that from the character design alone there is so many questions about them and their personality.
Informative video. I personally like Joker because he’s just cool. 😎 Despite being able to choose different options in conversation, we can tell what he’s really like from body language, facial expressions, actions, etc. This of course, to your point about the protagonists not being complete blank slates. @Lady Virgilia
So basically westerners think of these silent protags as bland and passive, so they're less appealing. Whilst they tend align more with eastern values, so they're more appealing as in their respective polls.
I thought it was going to dive for a more psychological angle, where westerners think of these as self-inserts so they're not real characters, but a vessel to vicariously experience the game, as opposed to easterners viewing it some other way, being the hypothesis.
It's interesting to think about.
This took my Western brain on a trip i wasn't expecting.
The 'self' view bit really required some thinking on my end.
After you brought up the Eastern ideal of the group. I thot 'well how are they when they're alone?' But in today's world that's not really going to happen.
There's always going to be others.
I'm still not truly understanding such though processes. But it's definitely overwhelming to me at least
Interestingly, the Fallout franchise, which is a decidedly Western game employs silent protagonists as well. Including the amazing Fallout New Vegas.
Fallout has unvoiced protags, not silent protags. Every dialogue option (and the dialogue options are pervasive and have consequences) are the player character speaking, typically in full sentences.
It would have been pretty epic if you can find the islamic influence on asian culture or its relation to the protagonist. Still a great vid
Please i would vote the protagonist simply for a ego boost since it would technically be myself playing those characters
I should point out that as a Middle Eastern Christian that the faith can also be rather collectivistic as well. The whole idea can be that we are individuals for sure, but we are all equal before God and that the decisions we make do not exist in a vacuum for they will reflect on society and before the almighty. Not to mention, rampant individualism to many Christian adherents can be seen as verging on sin as it encourages people to take up vice or see of themselves as God or harm nature and creation in the quest for power and profit.
Which makes it weird to me to see some people claim to be Christian and yet support systems that rely on domination of man over man and over the environment as if they were God when He wants unity amongst his creation and to take care of the Earth.
Hence communal values can also be emphasized in Christianity and many monks do in fact live accordingly.
For some reason, Junpei doesn't get the Kanji/Ruyji treatment, despite Junpei being as loud and brash as the other 2.
The "hate" towards Ryuji is understandable because the japanese really dislikes the rebellious personality, the "punk" stereotype, etc meanwhile in the west, Ryuji is usually seeing as the least annoying "besto friendo" (or in western terms, the "bro"). That's the exact same reason why Kanji is not popular... I see westerners considering "punk" as something cool and badass (hell, the recent Spiderverse 2 animation is a good example, this movie is trying hard to be punk, literal "Spider-Punk" is a thing, etc.. and the audiences love it), but the japanese have a polar opposite interpretation it seems, westerner fans embraced Ryuji and Kanji, not so much for asian fans. Also, I think it's interesting how Ken is the least popular character, I guess this is a universal thing, both cultural backgrounds agrees: why the hell a child is doing in these games?
People in genral want to identify themselves in certain ways to feel they hold a sense of value.
5:56 "The Answer" mentioned 😮
I think that there are general character traits for each protagonist that make them stand out. Having finished P3 Reload, I see that Makoto feels less like a self-insert, being closer to an self-sacrificing and therapeutic kind of person. Each social link is less of a shower of praise for the protagonist and more of the character’s genuine appreciation for his willingness to listen. All of the people with these terrible pasts and situations are finally being given the chance to just let it all out and appreciate someone else’s company. Despite being able to pick dialogue options, the end result is the same, Makoto’s final action is the same. There’s true meaning in someone’s ability to simply listen, to just exist next to someone for no reason other than that they care.
I have that same thought too. The reason why the Persona protagonists are popular in Asian countries is because they are therapeutic and always willing to listen to someone with a terrible upbringing, situation or just someone to talk to. Makoto, Yu and Ren are completely different in some characteristics but they share a sense of understanding and compassion for people, let it be the ones they befriend throughout the course of the game, a classmate at school or just a civilian in the city they're staying in for the year. And these traits are viewed with high esteem in eastern countries.
its funny when i lived in japan i had the same views with the protags and all, once i moved out west i realized how great characters like kanji and ryuji were when at first i REALLY hated ryuji
2:57 Was expecting Yu Narukami lol!
Quick FYI, I looked at the google doc of links, and the last two seem to be the same link? Were there supposed to be 3 total for the research study section? Edit - nope, nevermind, they ARE different, I just didn't compare them with a close enough eye, my bad!
So basically the short of it is is that protagonists aren’t really supposed to be self-inserts, but the dialogue options are a sort of social test in themselves, they’re not a way to let a player self-express, they’re only testing the player’s ability to pick the right thing to say, the dialogue options are all things the character might say, and that characterizes them even if you don’t say it.
And that means they aren’t as easily understood as a defined character if you see them as a vehicle of self-expression, which they intentionally and truthfully aren’t supposed to be exactly, even if having dialogue choices makes you feel that way.
Having played Persona 5 Royal last year, on my side, there are three key factors for which I enjoy Joker despite him being a blank slate: 1. It makes sense for him to be a blank slate since his actions can have an impact on the story and others in both positive and negative ways, and it's up to the players to decide how; and 2. This aspect is a big one - his dialogue options are excellent and add a ton of personality to Joker regardless of the type of character you make him, especially the funny ones such as "Something witty." and "Honey, I'm Home."; and 3. Joker is inspirational because of all the hardships he overcame, with his responses to the 3rd semester final boss after the battle being a particular highlight.
I never thought about it like that, westerners dislike the protagonists because they view them as a self insert, but easterners love them because they see them as true reflections of good people
Any video that is educational and promotes intelligent discourse plus invalidates redditors is a win. Good job with this one.
Thousands of years of evolution on an island which exists upon a fault line has molded modern Japanese into this "collectivist" mindset. Natural disasters are an extremely common occurrence there, so relying on immediate cooperation is necessary to survival. You can see this as recently as the 2011 earthquake and tsunami. It adds much needed context to the "the nail sticking up must be hammered down" concept.
Funny, I've gotten back into the Way Of The Samurai series lately, which is a rare Japanese series (especially outside of VNs) where player choice largely dictates the story. The player can be noble, despicable, or anything in between with branching plotlines to match. Now I'm wondering what the Japanese perception of this would be, or if that's why WOTS never gained a large following.
9:47 correction a certain group has that reedom. If you're not rich, white, a man, or straight, you lose said freedom.
Me think of conversation topics 😩
This video 👀
Personally I found this video interesting since Makoto is my favorite character in P3 - he's enough of a self-insert that I remain identifying with him, yet he also has his own arc portrayed subtly throughout the game. I find it brilliant and it makes me kind of sad that so many people just see him as their self-insert and downplay or ignore the nuances of his character.
That said, I don't fully agree with the Christianity v Buddhism dicotomy. Self denial is huge in Christainity. Heck it's lent right now which is all about fasting.
as someone from SEA this is not suprising to me as the cultural barrier is very hard to pass by specially when you grown to that kind of environment
10:42 Higurashi spotted!!!!
And Rean Schwarzer, can't forget that guy
I think one of the biggest reasons people hate blank-slate silent protagonists in the west is because of how awkward they make voiced dialogue, especially in more character heavy games like Persona or Fire Emblem. Since the character has no 'real' name to be referred to with, games often try to get around that by referring to them with a title that, when put into an english speaking context, just makes them feel more like a mannequin than a person. (See Three Houses and its innumerable uses of 'professor' that just sound silly)
This awkwardness gets especially bad when it comes to stuff like the confession scenes in persona 5, where you have people refusing to use the name of the person they are pouring their heart out to, leaving an impression not unlike talking to a brick wall.
A completely blank slate make your own character is very popular in Western games as well. You can choose the race, customise the face with miniscule details, choose your job classes, etc. at least Persona protags have a face and general sense of personality. I feel the dialogue options most of the time is limited and you can see what kind of person Makoto, Yu, Ren are by those choices. They are just not voice acted.
❤
I actually prefer connecting to the characters/other people rather than differentiating myself! I do not understand why this is seen as selfish
Thinking of the Persona MCs as defined by their relationships makes a lot of sense and fits with both the gameplay and story. I suppose that's why I've never been bothered with them. There are only two silent protags in videogames I had issues with, and both are because their franchises don't typically use silent MCs so they felt jarring:
-Ludger in Tales of Xillia 2. The Tales of series prides itself on fully-voiced "skits" between characters, and a silent protagonist sticks out like a sore thumb during them. Ludger didn't NEED to be a silent protagonist either, I'm not sure why they even made him one. You even unlock the option to "turn on" his voice... in New Game+.
-Byleth in Fire Emblem Three Houses. Firstly, this game has fully voice acted support conversations, so the MC being silent leads to theirs being "characters talking at a wall for several minutes". Secondly, Byleth doesn't have amnesia and has a clear backstory and reputation as a famous mercenary in-universe, but isn't ALLOWED to talk about it due to being silent, so they might as well have amnesia. Yes, I know there are lore reasons why Byleth doesn't emote much, but I still much prefer them in Three Hopes and Engage, where Byleth actually speaks. And fortunately the main "avatars" of those two games were given full voice acting too.
3:05 Wait, that wheel looks exactly like how Shido's Treasure manifests in his Palace. Hmm...
6:01 I've never seen this version as I only go to the shrine once for the trophy, lol.
9:08 This study is interesting, because I feel like maybe the Korean participants got closer to the evolutionary purpose of speech? It's always been fascinating to consider why humans developed the ability to talk and communicate to others of their species, and it clearly poses an evolutionary advantage. I like to think it relates to helping eachother survive.
"Aren't trying to make themselves stand out" kind of gets to why Ryuji isn't as popular outside Japan.
12:10 Interesting that this chart puts Australia, New Zealand and Britain close together, and also fairly close to Canada. As an Australian, I definitely feel more similarities to those cultures than to the US. Not sure I agree with it being as close to the US on individualism though. Among other things I've noticed, most conservatives in Australia tend to be pro- gun control and surprisingly (by US standards) supportive of same-sex marriage. Political issues in Australia tend to lean more economic than societal, although there are still fringe groups.
12:10 yeah USA is the different relative of the anglo world. This is because our independence was more violent then Canada and Australia. We had basically a teen rebelling against his parents and leaving the house while the rest wait until they were ready. Hell we do the "you not my father!" To England and saying "Ireland my real dad!" With England going "he gets this from your side of the family, honey(Scotland)."
I'm glad someone in the comments has mentioned Byleth. They really are the worst version of a silent protagonist imo.
I can't even consider them a self-insert, I'd be on my couch yelling at my switch for them to "please SAY SOMETHING" as one of the cast would finally open up in the A supports. Characters telling you about the most traumatic things that ever happened to them as Byleth listens stone-faced with nothing to say. It's so awkward!
Three Hopes did so much better with Byleth. I'm so glad Shez and Alear got to speak. Particularly Shez, my favorite "avatar" type protagonist in recent memory!
@@leasting Again, I wouldn't be so bothered by Byleth if it weren't for 1, the rest of the game being fully voice acted and 2, the "Ashen Demon" backstory. Byleth has an established mercenary career and semi-legendary reputation, and it might as well not exist because they're never allowed to talk about it. They must have so many interesting stories from their merc days, imagine if they could share those in supports? They're the one Avatar without any kind of memory loss, and yet the story acts like they're amnesiac anyway.
I haven't played Three Hopes due to personal burnout on Fodlan as a setting (and some personal bitterness with Three Houses for its effect on Engage's reception), but voice acting is a big part of why I like Alear. They're a character I went in expecting to hate, and turned out to be surprisingly endearing, almost entirely due to their voice acting.
@@BigKlingy Yeah, I don't understand why Byleth doesn't get to speak outside of their in-battle lines. It really would help take them from "cardboard" to "pragmatic and taciturn", which seems to be the most generous interpretation one could give the character writing. It really would have been fun to see merc stories though, rather than just vague allusions to Byleth having been in many battles.
Completely understand on burning out on Fodlan, though I personally think Three Hopes is worth playing eventually to revisit the characters. And Shez actually gets to talk about being a mercenary (what a concept!) I do also like Alear a lot! Even the design has grown on me, they wouldn't be the same without the Pepsi hair lol
Wu Wei! Wu Wei!
Your observation that the self is understood more commonly as interdependent in Asia (around 9:10) clicked something for me. I find that a lot of Westerners, more commonly Euro-descended folks and men, who adopt Buddhism or find interest in Confucionist ideas interpret the non-self ideas in a way that still reinforces individualism and bypass the impact we have on others. As someone who strives towards interdependence, it annoys the HECK out of me. The hyperindividulist bias gets projected unto the concept of "self".
(Also, a feedback note: I understand your general idea on naming Western Christian influences on individualism. But, I think that Greco-Roman culture had more of an influence on how Christianity developed and understood the self. Before Rome adopted Christianity, the Bible is very communal, many of the Jewish communities and teachings, including that of Jesus, were in direct opposition to the norms of Rome. The passage you quoted Jeremiah 29:11, is speaking to a community, not an individual. The Genesis passage does not have anything individualistic about it unless your are reading that into the passage. You used some references to the "Old Testament" and "New Testament" to make your point in ways demonstrate the shared socialization around lack of literacy most folks in the West have about these books. It is not your fault, even Chrisitans in the West generally lack this literacy, especially those who are part of white evangelical spaces. This is all to say, even though your point is a good one, the way you illustrated your point was a VERY sloppy, as Roman and Greecian influence and encounter are not in all parts of the Bible. Your argument would have stood, even if you had not sloppily applied strangely interpreted Bible passages to make your point. TLDR: The West/Europe plays a large role in formation of Christianity as an individualistic religion). I'm writing as a Black American with a Master in Divinity and I also love your videos, so please don't see this as hate. I just have really strong feelings and I wish folks would just call things what they are: WHITE AND EUROPEAN.
I could care less about self-inserts or whatever that players can relate to, I just despise silent protagonists across the board. It's so immersion-breaking, like I WANT to hear my character speak the dialogue options I'm choosing. Do devs think we go around in real life silently communicating telepathically with everyone? It's so weird seeing literally every other character speak, and then you're just mute, not a word escapes your mouth. It's a reason I enjoy games that maybe don't have much self-insertion value, but where the the player character is very vocal, like Xenoblade or something.
Not everyone considers it immersion breaking lmao. Obviously the silent protags either off camera speak or get their point across in some way. It's not that big a deal, literally silent protags are the minority, so why complain over a stylistic choice/genre
So basically you're saying that where we in the west mostly see the protagonists as bland blank slates in desperate need to grow a personality (which many interpret them as doing by socializing and getting up their social links), eastern audiences go "they're being so respectful and considerate by completely muting their inner personality"? I want to be corrected if I'm misunderstanding, but if I'm not, I find that eastern mentality so saddening and stifling in concept. It really makes me glad I'm not in that kind of culture. Still, I know my opinion would probably be inverted if I were Japanese or Korean or what have you. Even I as a born and raised American obviously have my limits on what social expressions are tolerable, hence us having societal norms like shushing interrupting chatters during a movie at the theater.
Haven't watched yet, but very interested because I honestly really dislike this style of protagonist because they dont really make them a blank slate so you're not really projecting on to them like intended. Joker, for example, definitely has his own personality as opposed to like, The Dragonborn from Skyrim or The Inquisitor in Dragon Age. Either let me actually make a self-insert or just tell me a story of a person like Final Fantasy, IMO atleast.
I'm sure you've seen the video already since the comment is months, but your comment fully highlights the issue of the problem: "so you're not really projecting onto them as intended." But that's the point: silent protagonists in Japanese games aren't intended to be self-inserts in the first place.
You came off as suuuper condescending the entire time but maybe I'm just being weirdly sensitive to your tone of voice, fantastic video regardless.
I feel the same way. The video is informative but the way Lady speaks in her videos can come off as condescending/know it all which rubs me the wrong way personally.
@@minatoarisato4742 Honestly, same. While I love her content, her sounding like a condescending know it all is something she REALLY needs to work on and is something that does bother me.
I always took the fluidity not as blandness but as shallowness? But not like in a bad way.
So I’m autistic and from where I’m standing, all neurotypicals are guilty of this behavior to varying degrees and Americans are just super in denial about it. As far as I’m concerned collectivist cultures are just more honest about human group tendencies.
Although I’m autistic/adhd so I am 100% also guilty of this behavior. Though unlike neurotypical i didn’t figure it out til adulthood. It’s complicated and not really important just know, I understand 100% why people do it. Group cohesion and not wanting to murder each other every ten seconds is important.
Anyway, I read it as “yeah this feels a little manipulative but people do this all the time, it’s just normal extrovert stuff” like for me the thing that makes me feel weird is the utter level of flexibility rather than the flexibility existing. Cause if the protags were real, there would be at least one or two of the social links they wouldn’t jive with or at least not be willing to put up with the bs.
Edit: also with protags winning. Usually I assume the main characters will win because people tend to get attached to the characters they spend the most time with. Even if that character is meant to be projected onto. So when I saw the poll I just thought, well of course you’re gonna get attached to this Protag. You’re with them through the entire endeavor.
Although I’m kind of weird in that it’s rare for me to actively project onto a character unless they already share traits with me? To me the persona protags are characters separate from myself. They are not just a stand-in for me. So I find people saying “they just voted for themselves” without a hint of irony bizarre. Like is that all you see the protags as? Nothing else?
Personally I wouldnt put any of the protagonists on my "best characters" list, but I absolutely prefer a self insert silent protagonist over voiced protagonists (unless they actually have a personality and story, reason to be voiced and are relevant, not to mention well written).
Jrpgs protagonists are usually very hard to handle imo, bar very few exceptions they are either generic and boring, with overtly goody two shoes personalities that are unrealistic and make them seem like morons or a silent protagonist, usually with flavor choices meant for people to self insert in most of the time and I vastly prefer the second type.
Imo its the ideal way to do rpgs in general, you can see with how disliked the voiced protagonist of FAllout 4 was and how Starfield returned to the silent kind, even Byleth who is decried by some of the western fans as boring is imo a far better option than to have someone like Alear be the lead (I actually really like Byleth personally, dont get the hate against him/her).
So that’s why JRPGs barely have any role playing in it. Ironic.
Even so if the perception of Persona's silent male protagonists is seen as good people who value others over themselves, they're still self-inserts.
Links or Mario's you have to name, pick the options for. Some of that is still there.
And the Nonself reminds me of Stoicism, namely the Romantic Objection.
What if I want to feel good about myself? Do something sexual for myself or get into a romantic relationship with a little of that relationship for me and all of it for my partner(s)?
I don't think loving someone without living yourself is a good idea, a bit destructive.
Sure, doing something for the commumity is good.
But should that come at demonising your own desires, like masturbating for yourself or maintaning your mental health?
I mean, Mara is the tempting adversary of desire. Whatif I need some self love?
Loving someone withour loving yourself is destructive.
It might be a powerful meme in Japan's culture, but it doesn't mean it's good. What about the minorites of the land? The majority maybe doing thing, but what about my fellow New-Half girls? "Oh, that's bad" and ignoring it isn't helping transwomen with living or surviving in Japan.
collectivist cultures are always at risk of minority oppression, but then again, so are individualist cultures. shit ain't great for transfemmes in the US right now either lolsob.
I feel like the only MAYBE number 1 that is justified is yu Narukami, if the anime is included. Kanji is still my goat tho
People who call Yu bland know not of Chad Yu imo.
Smart. Anyone who can 'deboonq' the secularization narrative is way ahead.
Awesome video.
As for the questions at the end... I don't believe the "independent view of the self" is anything except a mere 'view'. In reality we're interdependent and act & develop ourselves based on others.
I didn't understand how you used "self-insert", it's unusual. Silent protagonists are the furthest thing from Sonichu.
Throughout the video I had no idea who this group was that opposed some voting poll all the way on the other side of the globe, and whether I should care about them at all (ie few insulated self-centered twitter psychos you happened to interact with).
Also I think you extrapolated the choice of not engaging in the complexity of branching narrative design into a consequence of culture, rather than a mere creative/game design choice.
Finally, I expected you to talk about the elusive "values dissonance", but it didn't happen, not really. What followed was an elaboration on cultural peculiarities rather than exploring the dissonance itself, or the values themselves, or the philosophy of this. It was still great, but in hindsight can seem misleading or misguided.
Since it seems like you're curious, I'll say, i'm from Brazil, love philosophy, and it's always great seeing that mix with the lifelong gaming and joy for Japan.
Both are fairly gross misinterpretations of either religion and theosophies.
Both religions have absconding oneself from oneself for one's communities.
There's a difference, but it has more to do with past western exploratory capacity, vs SE asian isolation.
One thing that's always frustrated me about JRPGs as a subgenre is how often I'm saddled with a cisgender heterosexual male protagonist that I can't change and can't influence at all. It's made significantly more frustrating when the protagonist is a "nonself" entity like the modern Persona protagonist often is. It's a lot easier for me to identify with a protagonist who is fully realized as a character and not *intended* as a player avatar than it is for a character like Yu or Joker. I can more easily set aside "my" self when the protagonist character is a distinct entity. For example, I'd never actually consider any of the modern Persona protagonists to be top choices (even Kotone, because while she's a girl, she's still explicitly framed as heterosexual and Hashino hates queers and women and especially queer women) but I would very easily consider a (ostensibly cishet) guy like Noah from Xenoblade Chronicles 3 as a favorite. Because he's not meant to be me; he's himself, he's not merely a meta-entity connecting the player to the game world.
Wtf I love hashino now?
@KWABOTY As much as Hashino has done a lot of hard work for the Persona series, he does have weird opinions such as believing you can't form platonic relationships with women without getting romantic which somewhat reflected the romance mechanic in P3 where you can't be platonic with the girls.
@syn01110 You put it perfectly! This is exactly how I feel about these types of protagonists. Give me a real character over a puppet any day. (Although I'm a straight woman, so I really enjoyed Kotone -- it was the first time I ever experienced what playing a JRPG silent protagonist is *supposed* to be like.)
I also think your comment points to some reasons why, when there are female protagonists in Japanese games, they're almost never the silent nonentity type. One reason might be that devs can see how much it sucks to play "me" when it's very much "not me." Or because they don't expect men to put themselves in the shoes of a woman (or a person who would even consider flirting with the same sex, oh my!). But also, because of the emphasis on the protagonist as a nexus of relationships, if they were to make a female/queer protagonist, the devs would feel the need to rewrite all the other characters to reflect that. And in fact, that is exactly what they did with Kotone: rewrote a huge portion of the game. To the point where they even removed her social links with the male SEES members in P3: Reload, even though keeping them for the male protag would be more consistent with P4 and P5.
While I see the cultural difference pointed out in the video, I have to wonder: if the "self" doesn't really matter in eastern thought...then why does the protagonist always have to be a straight guy, even in games like Shin Megami Tensei where they really are a totally blank slate?
@@StBacchusBecause a lot of times people tend to subconsciously assume "straight male" = the "default" type of human
I've seen some Persona fans excusing this kind of behavior, like mentioning possible dialogue choices of Joker that are 100% the "japanese way" (like being humble, honorable, etc), but eventually, you can literally find deeper meanings and layers if you try hard enough... for example, I know people who considered 50 shades of grey as the most complex romance they ever seen (I am not joking), you can find "meaning" in everything really, you just have to allow your interpretations to go wild.
But I think in this particular case, it's the straightforward approach: self-insert mixed with projections from the writers, hence why the romances in Persona are usually poorly written, these devs have no idea how human relations even works, how to interact with women, the sheer awkwardness, etc they use shonen and shojo cliches as literal crutches. And mind you, I am really far from being a "woke" individual, but on this particular case, I do agree with their whining, Persona doesn't have a clue how to deal with this kind of stuff. If it was not by the awful depiction of women and the excess of anime cliches, I would have agreed with the "selflessness" point of the video, but...
I just finished Persona 3 Reload, it's bizarre how every female character is obsessed with the protagonist, especially Aigis... and that's the catch, Aigis is the most popular P3 character (if you disregard the self-insert), the japanese are so lonely and miserable, the "caring waifu" cliche is super effective with them, the ending of P3R focused a lot on that concept, literal guardian angel who will take care of "you" for eternity, lol Also, the Naoto romance in Persona 4 Golden is straight up bizarre, if I'm not mistaken you can't romance her in the original P4, right? She arrives too late in the story and etc.. but in Golden, you can do it... and oh boy, it's weird (also, I do remember her bikini scenes, another bizarre "incel" moment in P4)
Self insert should remain to fan fiction and conics, not normalize into VN or games because you want the characters to be voiced
Nah, SIs are okay. There's a certain way of storytelling that can't be replicated with using a normal protag, and in the first place even actual protags are usually self inserted by the audience to the point that there's really not that much a difference as people think
@@darknessknows1235 I am saying that the term should stay in the realm of fanfiction not in other media because people hate or had enough of silent protagonists.
8:32 I mean to most people they basically look and act the same.
Self-insert protagonists are incredibly popular in the West too. For example, that's why Bella Swann was so bland so that women could put themselves into Twilight.
Or, for Western RPGs, you can actually make your own character, such as in Fallout, Dragon Age, etc. where they don't have much (if any) set characteristics or back story.